[driven]

This is rough. I'm not even thinking clearly any more so I'm turning to some outside ears (you all) for advice.

Short history:
- My mother is a lung transplant recipient (5 years ago).
- She checked into the hospital about 5 weeks ago for what seemed like a cold. (Not uncommon for imuno-compromised people to need hospital care to recover from a cold ... it's happened many times in the last 5 years.) <-- I had a bad feeling, but that's no matter at this point.
- It turns out that this time was much worse: It took the doctor 4 damn weeks to figure it out, but it turns out that she has a case of Asperigilloma. (Basically a fungus that our immune system kills instantly, but for someone with no immune system it can be fatal).

They transferred her out to a hospital in Alabama (where they did the transplant). I just got back. The doctor's say that while they are trying some fairly toxic drugs, it will take a miracle to save her. She's got like 3-4 weeks at most to live.

Besides losing my best friend, I'm also concerned about my children. My daughter is extremely close to her. (She was born exactly 50 years after my mom down to the hour ... she's 7 now.)

First and foremost is Christmas: Do we pretend that Christmas isn't coming and spend the day at the hospital? Do we do Christmas in the AM and then pack up the kids and head over there to sit at her bedside? Do I go to the hospital and leave the kids home?

At what point do I tell my children that their grandmother is going to die? Do I wait until after the fact?

These kids have already lost both great-grandparents and a great-uncle in the last 6 months. (2004 has been terrible ... I've lost 3 personal friends as well.)

This is rough and I'm reeling now. I don't cry any more about *ANYTHING* any more and my faith is practically shot, but believe me, I'm hurting inside. Any and all good advice would be most appreciated. (Especially if you've ever had to go through anything like this.)

[Randman]

Sorry to hear that.

While things can't be "normal", my suggestion is to try and make matters as comfortable for all. It'll give good memories. The kids probably sense that something is off-kilter but no need to ruin the holiday for them.
Discuss the matter with them afterward. As for your mom, I'd also try and make things more comfortable and as natural as possible. She'd probably appreciate a fuss not being made and concentrating on the good spirits.
You may go through hell but even so, enjoy the time that you all have and keep that going.
God bless.

[Cipher13]

I'm terribly sorry to hear it, driven.

While doctor's are highly trained and extremely good at what they do, generally... they don't know everything - don't give up just yet. My grandmother, very recently (a month or two ago), was given several days to live - she pulled through just fine, and is back to her old self again. People can make amazing recoveries.

Incase the worst happens... I'd have to advise telling the kids before anything happens. If she doesn't make it, either way, they're going to have to deal with her loss... but if they aren't somewhat prepared for it, the impact could be far more devastating than if they are. While telling them may unnecessarily upset and bother them, which is particularly unfortunate at this time of year, I think the effect it will have later on if the worst happens will be well worth it. Shock over a situation like this is a very bad thing. Let them visit her knowing what may happen.

If she seems to recover a little, wait till after Christmas. That said... I know they're young, but they'll see many more Christmas' - I wouldn't worry about spoiling one Christmas for them at the cost of preparing them for the worst case scenario, and allowing them to visit her knowing it may be the last time.

I hope your mother gets better, driven. All the best.

[Xeo]

I'm really sorry to hear that. I don't think there is any right or wrong way to handle it. Just do what feels most comfortable. Good luck and I hope that miracle comes. I recommend not telling your kids that grandma might die if it's not 100%. If she pulls through you would have put them through unnecessary anguish. Best just to tell the truth, grandma's sick, rather than attempt to foretell the future.

"Is nana gonna get better?"
"I hope so."

Be honest.

[storer]

I'm sure we're all very sad to hear that, and I know I would be, because I am very close to my mum.

My cousin's grandma died a week ago and they were having similar troubles in planning. On the subject of Christmas, perhaps you should go to the hospital for Christmas lunch and eat there, stay a few hours, go have Christmas dinner and then come back. Maybe you should stay all day, ask your kids what they would like to do. Whatever you do, do not forget Christmas is coming, because if the kids are as upset as you are, they need something to brighten their day, whether it be Christmas cheer or doing Christmas things. Try and bring this cheer to your mum too, because I'm sure she would much appreciate it.

Now, most people her know I am 14 years old, and I'll say that from a kid my age's point of view, I would like to know if my grandmother was going to die. Of course, you would need to be delicate about the subject, but if the kids aren't aware of this, they don't know to make what could be their last Christmas with her special.

[wdlove]

Very sorry to hear about your mother's terminal illness. My prayers go out to your mother, you, and your family. Loss is hard at any time of year, but Christmas is even worse. You should help to prepare your children so that it won't be a complete shock. For the sake of the children, you should go ahead and have Christmas. It should be with your normal traditions. Maybe family members could take turns being at her bedside. Then when it is her time, which usually is known ahead, then all the family should be there.

I pray that she will not suffer terribly. May she die in peace. Is she on pain medications?

[driven]

Everyone: Thank you for the replies and your prayers.

One thing I want to clarify: I live in Atlanta, she's in the hospital in Birmingham. It's about a 3 hour drive each way. This was one of my questions about Christmas and the kids and the location, etc.

As it is now I'm taking every other day off work (when I'm not teaching) and driving out in the morning (8AM) and back at night (1AM). (Thank God for coffee!)

As for pain meds: She's taking some Codine and Percocet now. They want to keep her on that while they see if this drug treatment for the fungus works. If it doesn't work and her lungs start to fail they plan on administering morphine to make her last days a little more peaceful.

She's dictating funeral plans to the family now. <sigh>

[cjrivera]

Sorry to hear about your mother. My prayers and best wishes are with her and your family.

On the subject of Christmas, I would find out from your mom what she wants to do. Most likely, she'll want to see the kids. Find out when (during the day) she's at her strongest, and make a short visit then. You could even do it the day before or after Christmas. Tell the kids that she's sick, but there's no reason to bring up that it is possibly fatal. Your mom will likely have her spirits lifted by seeing the family, the kids will understand that they are going the extra mile for a loved one at Christmas and if (and hopefully not) she passes away after Christmas, the kids will remember (every Christmas) the fun they had with Grandma, instead of how sad they were with her.

just my 2 cents...

[historylme]

Sorry to hear about your mother. I hope fort the best and good luck.

[kcmac]

driven.

You sound like a wonderful person.

Seeing my kids and the rest of my nieces and nephews go through the same things, have faith in their ability to understand these things. They really can deal with more than we adults think. Especially if you have been close as a family which sounds to me that you have.

While this is a hard time of the year to have this going on, it is also a time when we are together which will make it easier to discuss things and talk about the good things you all remember.

My brothers and sisters and I all got together with our kids when my dad died and told a lot of stories that we then shared at the funeral and in the days beyond. It is still hard but I am glad we did it all together and all out in the open.

Be strong and don't try to do it all yourself. Let others help because they really want to.

[voyageur]

My sympathies, driven. How lucky she is to have you for a son/daughter. I would agree that you should let your children know that Grandma is very sick and may die, but don't dwell on it. The 7-year-old who is partcularly close to her will need extra hugs. Have Christmas; show them that life goes on even when we lose someone we love; Grandma would want them to be happy. Depending on how young they are, some children will need reassurance that mommy and daddy aren't going to die any time soon too. Conversely, for young children death is not permanent, so don't be surprised if they talk about her coming back again.
I hope she is able to recover, after all.

[turtle777]

driven,

I'm sorry to hear that. My sympathies and prayers are with you.
After 9 months in hospital, my father-in-law is on the verge of passing away at this very moment, so I feel some of your pain.

-t

[RAILhead]

If your mom is able to tell you, what does she think? Chances are, she'll want you to carry on with your kids, then be with her after -- that's how it was for my wife when we got married. Actually, it was her Dad's mother that died, but they were all painfully close to one another -- and no one would even entertain the idea of us postponing our wedding, especially since Grandma wouldn't want us to.

That said, if you can ask her what she thinks, do as she says. If not, is there anyone else that will be with her if you're away? What do they think?

[CreepingDeth]

That's awful. From personal experience (not exactly like the story goes, but related), I think the kids should spend as much time with their parents as possible. My grandfather on my uncle's side died 4 years ago. What was terrible was that I never really got to know him. Spend as much time as possible.
As for the ordering, making Christmas in the PM would almost cover up seeing the mom in the AM. So I'd do it traditionally in the morning and go over when everyone is awake.

But for the love of God, don't tell them that their Grandma has died. That'd make the kids feel like complete bastards like I did when I learned my grandpa and grandma (dad's side) died around Christmas. My grandpa who died died 4 years ago 2 months after Christmas and my grandma died 6 years ago on New Year's Day. It was terrible.

At the time, we were living pretty damn well. 6 figure salary, nice house, with library, big foyer with circular staircase loft, everything. So we were coming back from my aunt's house on New Year's day and my dad was sitting in a dark room with a cigarette in his hand, and then he told us the news. What made it worse was the fact that we never saw them much at all.

So my final words are this. Tell them that Grandma is going to die. I'm not sure when you should do it. Maybe after everyone has settled down after the Christmas morning, then go see her in the PM. And again, don't leave your kids in the dark about this.

[Spheric Harlot]

This may seem a little disjointed, but what I remember from when my mother died from cancer (at 54, 9 years ago) is much a blur punctuated by small moments.


Be honest with your kids. Ask your mom what she'd like to happen. Ask your kids what they want to do.

Accept the things you cannot change and make the time meaningful.

This Christmas will be special in many ways. Make it.


Read voyageur's thoughts above.


I wish you strength, and courage. All of you.


Take care.

[Kilbey]

I am sorry to hear about your mother.

I can't imagine the pain and torment as both of my parents are mostly healthy.

The only thing I can say is don't blow off your faith. But it's an easy thing to say, but a difficult thing to do.

[iREZ]

[itai195]

Terribly sorry to hear about this driven. I'm hoping your mom can pull through and recover. In the meantime, the suggestions above are good ones... Doing Christmas in the morning and then heading to the hospital with the kids afterward sounds like a good idea. Depending on their ages, I would at least tell them that their grandma is sick. That said, when my grandfather died when I was almost 16, I was aware that he was sick and with a poor prognosis... but I was never told he was as close to passing away as he was, and I [naively] thought I'd at least get a chance to see him again. Situation was a little different since he lived on a different continent. But my point is, if the other kids are a little older, they may appreciate knowing that this may be the final Christmas they spend with their grandma. I still regret not making the most of my final conversation with my grandfather.

[driven]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
I am sorry to hear about your mother.
The only thing I can say is don't blow off your faith. But it's an easy thing to say, but a difficult thing to do.

This comes from a number of events.

I'll try to make this brief also:
- My grandmother (father's side) died very slowly from Alzheimer's. We were always worried about my grandfather because we doubted that he could live without her. (They were married for 60+ years and still madly in love!)

When she finally died earlier this year it all seemed so clear from a faith standpoint. She left so slow that my grandfather had time to adjust to life without her! My faith was never stronger. (I *did* have a chance to say goodbye to my grandmother. The last things she said to me ... and to my grandfather were the only coherent things she did in years.)

Then, only a few months after she passes my grandfather gets struck down in a very tragic tree cutting accident. (Tree fell on him and killed him.) All that suffering for nothing. What was the point?

Three friends all my age ... died. Heart attacks, cancer. All with very young children.

Now my mother: She survives for 8 years after being told she had 6 months to live. She then survives a lung transplant. She survived several subsequent rejections and illnesses. She survived an abusive relationship with my father during this same period. (Different story ... but one which they have since patched up apparently.) Now ... after all that, just to be taken out by a fungus in a terrible suffering fashion.

It's very very *very* hard to keep my faith at this moment because it all seems so horrible.

-----------

To everyone: THANK YOU SO MUCH ... I'm taken aback by the kind thoughts and suggestions from folks that really don't know me. This is a really special community we have here, unlike many other places on the internet. (I'm learning to appreciate the little things.)

[CreepingDeth]

Originally posted by driven:
To everyone: THANK YOU SO MUCH ... I'm taken aback by the kind thoughts and suggestions from folks that really don't know me. This is a really special community we have here, unlike many other places on the internet. (I'm learning to appreciate the little things.)

Hey, everyone here may act like an asshat at times, like myself, but the community is not as vicious as some of the others I have seen who are obnoxious and even more immature.

Don't lose faith. Even as sort of non-religous guy, you need to have faith. She has survived far longer than anyone has expected, and you should be thankful. But make sure the kids know what's going on and make sure they see her. An improper farewell will gnaw at you forever.

[Rev-O]

Driven, prayers are with you. I lost my mother Jan of 2002 when shes was visiting family. April of 2003 my father passed away while he was on vacation with my wife, child and myself.

Man, I'm just sitting here staring at the computer screen blankly. There's so much to say, and most of it really means so little. This just sucks. My heart goes out to you. If you need a sympathetic ear, I'd sure be willing. Hang in there.

[driven]

Thanks again everyone. I'm headed down to Alabama again this morning so I'll be offline for a day or so.

I got a note from my daughter's teacher today. She was acting up in school (uncharacteristic.) I know it's affecting her. I alerted her teacher to what's going on. She's on break next week so I'll spend as much time with her as I can. <sigh>

[buffalolee]

Here is what I would do:

- Tell the children that their grandmother is going to die. It gives them time to prepare for her loss.
- Eat a good breakfast in the morning and open up a few presents
- Save some to open in front of grandma
- Have each one give grandma a Christmas present. Something the children made, not store bought.
- Open up the remaining presents in front of grandma to give a sense of family closeness
- If you open up all the presents without grandma, you are essentially leaving grandma out of the occasion.
- You can not bring all of your presents because there would simply be too many to open in the hospital
- After spending a few hours at the hospital, give the children some time to go home and relax if they wish
- If they prefer to stay, have a Christmas lunch/dinner at the hospital
- Your example of love and dedication will help the children cope with a sad situation
- Remember to let your children have the ability to say goodbye to grandma. If they don't, they will be shocked by the loss and probably hate you for not telling them that grandma is going to leave soon.

The main points are...
Don't leave grandma out of Christmas. Make it a festive occasion and celebrate a her life. If you mourn the coming of her death, it will be a slow and boring time at the hospital. Let your children remember grandma for her life and not for her death by letting them enjoying the last few moments you have with her. If you leave grandma out of the occasion, your children will simply not remember anything about grandma and grandma's love will be lost forever in your children.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Family members on their deathbed think alot, or try not to, and conversation with close children tends to be a bit guarded from being sentimental.

But talk about her life with her. Talk about as much as she wants to remember, all the little things from being a little girl to being a grandma. Don't you both be afraid to cry together about this. And a few minutes is not enough, you have to let the mind roam and gather details.

There are so many things that never get said, and having just a little time to say them once, or again, can be incredibly difficult, but it will place a gift inside everyone that will never get taken away.

[Spheric Harlot]

The one thing I wish I'd done with my mom before she died is collect more stories. Family lore.

[Jaey]

My grandfather died when I was 7-ish. He had liver cancer that was too developed to be treated, so my mother and father drove me down to where he lived, and we spent a week or two there, until he died. At the time (I was 7 remember), I got impatient and bored sitting with a sick man who could barely talk for more than half an hour. So I usually had to be forced to talk to him.
Now, many years later, I wish I had spent more time with him when he was dying because that's what he would have wanted. driven, I would suggest you do the christmas thing in the morning, then drive down to see your mother and spend some of the afternoon with her. Every day counts.

[Hugi]

Although it's difficult to give advice in this type of situation, I would suggest that you be completely honest with your children. I was extremely close to my grandfather as a child, but he passed away under similar circumstances when I was 7. I still remember my parents explaining it to me and even though I don't remember much of the events, I have always been very grateful for that.

Still, maintain your hope. I've learnt through difficulties in the family that it's never worth giving up. I'm not a religious person, but my prayers are still with your mother.

[driven]

I spent some time with her today ... she has some fantastic people watching out for her. (Nurses, doctors ... a ton of very interested medical students & interns ... (It is a university hospital after all...)

She seemed much better today. Much more coherent. She was able to sit up for a while. I had a terrific conversation with her. I keep telling her that she will come home soon and to keep her hope up.

I don't know if the apparent improvment is genine improvement, or just a good day before the storm. In any event I'm happy it happened. I got to tell her all of the good things that I never got to say before to her. (How often do people die and you wish that these things were said?)

I did tell her that her granddaughter needs her. (She has been worried and has started acting up in school recently.) Maybe this will provide an incentive for her to fight and not give up .... I don't know.

They started her on a very very toxic medicine today. Next week they do a CT Scan of the chest cavity again. I'm praying hard that there is some improvement. It's such a slim hope of survival, but it's all I've got to hold on to .... and it is the Christmas season .. the time of miracles, no?

Thanks everyone for your prayers. Most of you will never know how much good you may have done here this week by simply posting a message.

(Don't worry, I won't bore everyone with daily/weekly updates ... but I was just excited about today ....) I'm going to sleep now.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by driven:
Now my mother: She survives for 8 years after being told she had 6 months to live. She then survives a lung transplant. She survived several subsequent rejections and illnesses. She survived an abusive relationship with my father during this same period. (Different story ... but one which they have since patched up apparently.) Now ... after all that, just to be taken out by a fungus in a terrible suffering fashion.

Life is about the journey. 8 years of knowing her grandchildren, of your kids knowing her, is better than her having died 8 years ago. How many of your kids would she not have known at all? If you have faith then perhaps it was the plan for your mother to help in the development of the children, and she has now completed that task.

[kremmit]

I'm very sorry to hear this. Please accept my regards to you and your family.

[scaught]

this thread hits pretty hard for me.

like kilbey said, ive got a good set of healthy parents and cant imagine them not being there/watching them pass/etc. its hard to imagine what you would want if you were in your mothers shoes, but i always think "treat others like you would want to be treated" and it usually gets to the core of how i should act.

all the best to you and yours, driven.

scott

[driven]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Life is about the journey. 8 years of knowing her grandchildren, of your kids knowing her, is better than her having died 8 years ago. How many of your kids would she not have known at all? If you have faith then perhaps it was the plan for your mother to help in the development of the children, and she has now completed that task.

You are correct .... (CreepingDeth also pointed this out to me earlier.)

It's amazing how when something bad happens (or in my families case ... many bad things happened) that you tend to overlook all the blessings that one has been granted. When I read CreepingDeth's and your post it's like a slap in the face (in a very good way .... a wake up call if you will).

[Apple Pro Underwear]

I'm sorry to hear of your present situation. My heart goes out to you man.

What I would do:
- tell kids in whatever way you think is best. i always think honesty is the best way and at age 7, your kid will remember you being honest with her when she grows up.
- the situation is "sad" but it's not if you think about it. it seems to me she lived a great life, had some great kids... and grandkids. celebrate her life rather than her death.
- i think having this happen at christmas sucks but it is also good in a way in that it's the time of the year where you appreciate your family the most. i mean, i would want to pass at a time when I feel the most content and satisfied about life.

[theolein]

driven, I'm terribly sorry to hear about your situation and your mom. My prayers go to you and your family. May the time pass peacefully.

[Millennium]

I'm very sorry to hear this. The emotion in a situation like this is not something I can even begin to imagine. That said, I only have one piece of advice that I can give: tell the kids now, before it happens. Give them what time you can to prepare. If you had any more time then you might have been able to wait until after Christmas, but with this little time left you just can't risk that. That's an horrible accident of timing, and I don't envy your position, but you and they need whatever time there can be.

I'm not going to pretend that this will be easy. In the short term, this will be extremely hard on them, perhaps harder than if you didn't. But in the long term, they will appreciate having had time to prepare and -most important of all- time to say goodbye. It's not much time, true, but any time is better than none.

My thoughts are with you during this difficult time. I wish there were more I could do, but frankly I don't know what more even to say.

[driven]

If I had my doubts about miracles before, I no longer have any.

The doctor's at the hospital tried a new variation on a medicine over this past week. (Apparently it held some promise in the lab using a sample of her lung from a biopsy ... but applying it inside the body is a different issue entirely.)

They did another Cat-Scan on my mother yesterday.

Much to everyone's surprise (the doctor's included) this new medicine has begun to fight the fungal infection!!! If that's not enough, it's also not having the toxic effect on her liver that was originally expected!

The hospital now expects her to fully recover from this fungal infection. Full recovery will take another 4-5 weeks. She will then have to go to rehab and learn to walk again. (This illness really ravaged her body ... she no longer has full use of her legs.) In a few months time she may be coming home.

In all honesty this may have only bought her another year or so, but I'll take every minute I can get.

What a nice Christmas present from the allmighty! Needless to say my daughter is VERY happy! (She's convinced that her prayers made the difference .... who knows ... they may have!)

To EVERYONE here on MACNN: THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING! I'll NEVER forget the support from you folks.

[Ghoser777]

That's great man!

[Komisar]

I'm really happy for you... I am glad that she will make a full recovery..... it truly is a miracle

[SafariX]

Great news.

[Jaey]

[Apple Pro Underwear]

New Wellness!

Awesome!

[Cody Dawg]

driven:

I honestly mean this: I have tears in my eyes and on my face because I am SO happy for you and for your mother. YOU HANG IN THERE. BOTH OF YOU.

You said,

Now my mother: She survives for 8 years after being told she had 6 months to live. She then survives a lung transplant. She survived several subsequent rejections and illnesses. She survived an abusive relationship with my father during this same period. (Different story ... but one which they have since patched up apparently.) Now ... after all that, just to be taken out by a fungus in a terrible suffering fashion.

Your mother will survive this, too.

She is a fighter.

KEEP THE FAITH.

A prayer to you and your mother from our family.

[Madison]

Fantastic news! Remember what someone in this thread said, people can do amazing things, and your mom is no different. Everyone in your family made a difference by caring for her so much, and your daughters' prayers helped her as well as your mom. Here's to many more holidays with your mom at your house!




Tom

[ajprice]

Driven, I've been reading through this thread since it started, to see how your mother has been doing. I never posted before now because I didn't know what to say that hadn't been said already by the others here, and didn't know how to say it anyway. I hope you all have a good Christmas together (and a long time afterwards), and my thoughts and wishes are with you all. Good luck to your mother, she seems to be a strong person to go through what you have said has happened to her and still be fighting.

[driven]

Originally posted by ajprice:
Driven, I've been reading through this thread since it started, to see how your mother has been doing. I never posted before now because I didn't know what to say that hadn't been said already by the others here, and didn't know how to say it anyway. I hope you all have a good Christmas together (and a long time afterwards), and my thoughts and wishes are with you all. Good luck to your mother, she seems to be a strong person to go through what you have said has happened to her and still be fighting.

She had all but given up. (Heck, she was telling us her funeral wishes!) Even the doctors said "no hope". I think she's more surprised than any of us.

Today though she's a bit on the "annoying" side. (To put it nicely). She wants out of the hospital NOW. The problem is that if she leaves now it's a death sentence. They have to finish their work. I think a lot of her attitude now is the meds that she's on. As always: Take it with a grain of salt. :-) But: She can be as annoying as she wants .... I'll take 100 days of annoying to 1 day of a funeral. <really big smile>

[OreoCookie]

Sorry to hear that you're going through a rough time.

Go to hospital with your kids.

Explain your kids comprehensible what is going on and that your mother is probably going to die. Tell them what is going on, I mean, how much longer can you hide?

That way, you don't pretend everything is fine, but you will go there and your mom will be happy to see your grandchildren.

(BTW, I'm going through hard times myself right now, but I can tell you, it'll be better again.)

[Cody Dawg]

Explain your kids comprehensible what is going on and that your mother is probably going to die. Tell them what is going on, I mean, how much longer can you hide?

Don't you read, OreoCookie?

Why in the world would he tell his kids that their grandmother is going to die when he just said that his mother is going to be okay?

???

Pay attention or don't post!



Now be a good boy (or girl) and run along and play.

[driven]

'tis ok .... he meant well ...

(It would take a terrorist attack on my house to get me upset today!)

[SouthPaW1227]

Awesome to hear, I pray things continue on the up & up!

[d4nth3m4n]

ees a meeracuhl.

so happy for you man. the holidays always hit home with the losses of a family. glad you didn't have to suffer the fate of having a death IN the holidays. i can't imagine what that would be like.

give her a big hug for all of us here at MACNN. she deserves it.