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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > How hot is your macbook?

How hot is your macbook?
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davidsi
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May 17, 2006, 11:59 PM
 
how hot is your macbook running using coreduo? Mine is 65 c
( Last edited by mindwaves; May 18, 2006 at 12:29 AM. )
     
sllowry
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May 18, 2006, 12:16 AM
 
Are you serious? 65C ?!?! That's way too hot dude. My MPB runs hot but it rarely exceeds 45C. When operating on a cooling pad it's about 35C constantly.
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geltab
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May 18, 2006, 12:22 AM
 
What are you using to test your Macbooks temp?

All the widgets I download says there are no sensors.
     
geltab
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May 18, 2006, 12:27 AM
 
coreduotemp gives me 63C.

I have mail open, iphoto, ichat and safari.
     
davidsi  (op)
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May 18, 2006, 12:33 AM
 
im just using coreduotemp and monitoring the cpu on normal performance and with the power plugged in. so i let it cool and turned it back on. i htink i was transferring a lot of mp3s that got it kidna hot. rihgt now its at 57 c wiht me just surfing the web.
     
geltab
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May 18, 2006, 01:36 AM
 
mine
     
geltab
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May 18, 2006, 01:38 AM
 
mine seems to be running at a steady 63C.

when I flip through a bunch of photos in iphoto really fast, it gets up to 86C. the second I stop it drops pretty quickly.

you guy think that is too hot or could it be that the coreduo temp is off?
     
sllowry
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May 18, 2006, 01:51 AM
 
I use "Temperature Monitor" widget version, and "Temperature Monitor."
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geltab
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May 18, 2006, 02:14 AM
 
ok, mine runs at a steady hot 63C on both monitors. I have it plugged in and on better performance.

what do you other guys with macbook's get running Mail, Safari, itunes (nothing playing), and iphoto open (not doing anything with any of these programs- except browsing with Safari)?
     
Simon
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May 18, 2006, 03:46 AM
 
That seems ok. My 2.0GHz Core Duo in my MBP runs idle at 63C. Why should the MB's CPU temp be any different? The case temp might be different (fan speed, air volume pushed through, etc.), but the CPU temp is basically constant (at the same ambient air temperature).
     
okoj
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May 18, 2006, 05:05 AM
 
how many temperature different about mb and mbp ? if it not differrent rate it very bad for me because i think it very hot . anybody change termal pad for cpu in mb i see in another forum if change it low temp. same PC . anybody test i want to know.
     
tycheung
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May 18, 2006, 07:26 AM
 
needs to have thermal goop replaced w/ artic silver?
     
JAR
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May 18, 2006, 03:30 PM
 
I can't get the temperature monitor widget to work on my macbook (it says there are no temp sensors?!) but it is definitely HOT!!! Especially when I have the charger plugged in. I can't say my hands are very accurate temperature monitors but by touching it I would definitely say it is over 45C, probably around the 65C everyone here is reporting.

I'm just about ready to open it up and clean up the thermal goop. Anyone seen these pictures of how much goop Apple puts on these things? They clearly didn't learn a THING from their MBP mistake, and I doubt this problem can be fixed by Apple's "firmware update".

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=295925
http://www.kodawarisan.com/macbook/macbook003.html

Before I open it up (I'm going to use kodawarisan's photos as a guide), does anyone know how that would affect my 3 year warranty? I am hoping it would not nullify my warranty, but if it does I hope there are no stickers or tags I might break while opening it. I don't think I want to ask Apple for a new unit because it is very probable that most other macbooks have the same problem. This is my first Apple (I just switched over yesterday from PC) and I am disappointed that Apple STILL hasn't figured out this thermal paste issue! (But otherwise I love this thing, please don't lynch me =P)
     
greenamp
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May 18, 2006, 04:06 PM
 
So far there aren't any widgets or other temp monitors which can read the cpu temp sensors in the MacBook. The only sensor that is being read right now is the hard drive sensor.

edit: my bad. There is this one : http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/21674

And mine is 66c right now! (155F) Seems waaay too hot, no?
( Last edited by greenamp; May 18, 2006 at 04:48 PM. )
     
Yakov
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May 18, 2006, 04:18 PM
 
god, i hate the idea of buying a laptop and right away having to clean up this stuff.

anyone with a picture by picture step by step guide to solving the paste issues without breaking warranty seals?
at least arctic silver is cheap.
     
JAR
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May 18, 2006, 04:49 PM
 
The link I posted from kodawarisan.com shows step by step how to open your macbook. Once you remove the heatsinks from the cpu and gpu it's pretty simple:
1. take some cotton gauze pads with ethanol rubbing alcohol
2. wipe the cpu, gpu, and heatsink surfaces CLEAN.
3. let it sit for a minute for the alcohol to dry.
4. get some badass arctic silver thermal paste
5. apply as little as humanly possible (probably around 1/4 a grain of rice size) on the CPU and GPU (not sure if the northbridge also has a heatsink on this one, can't see it in the photos)
6. press the heatsinks against the chips firmly, maybe jiggle it slowly back and forth to make sure the thermal paste spreads evenly
7. screw it all back together

I haven't actually tried it yet but this forum shows a guy who did it on his MBP and saw 20C drop in temps:

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sho...readid=1864582

I'm going to do it this weekend. If anyone does it before I do, please post how the results are.
     
OzCam
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May 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by davidsi
how hot is your macbook running using coreduo? Mine is 65 c
According to this link, the MacBooks are running too hot.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2946

A friend of mine has mentioned that his friend's brand new black MacBook has also experienced a kernel panic (although not sure if heat was the culprit).

Let's hope that gets sorted really quickly if it's a widespread issue.
     
JAR
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May 18, 2006, 05:23 PM
 
Can anyone clue me in on if fixing it myself nullifies my warranty? And if it does, will Apple be able to find out? I would really hate to see that $250 3 year warranty go to waste.
     
StiZeven
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May 18, 2006, 05:57 PM
 
63-66c is WAY too hot for ANY notebook - especially if that is at idle.

My Pentium M (PC) Laptops never get over 50-55c as the fan usually kicks in at that point to bring the temp down (and it would never even get that high at idle!) It would take a lot of use to shoot up to 55c for the fans to even come on in the first place (unless you're doing something really CPU intensive). 63-66c is not normal for a Pentium M at idle. What are the temps when pressing the CPU?

Apple really needs to re-think its cooling system in the Intel Mac portables. Fan(s) in Intel Macs should go on at 55c the most. Reports in other threads have suggested that cleaning up the thermal paste mess gave the cooling system a better idea as to how hot the CPU was and triggered the fan on more often.

Hard cooling aside, does OS X fully utilize the speed throttle (on the fly) features of the Pentium M? On the PC side, the notebook is usually idle at 400-600MHz and will dynamically shoot up to the max speed when needed. I've got a utility that lets it idle lower - at like 20MHz at idle.
     
greenamp
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May 18, 2006, 08:26 PM
 
My MB reached as high as 78c today using photoshop. So I called Apple and the guy told me that he would send a link to a firmware update that "might" fix the problem (never got it though). He also told me to take the battery and powercord out and hold down the power button for 5-6 seconds. Something about reseting power management.

He said that the MB and MBP run lots hotter because the CPU is so much faster, lol. Sure man, sure.
     
davidsi  (op)
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May 18, 2006, 09:31 PM
 
yeah i agree...has anyoen done the cpu clean up wtih the artic silver? from that one link it looks like the cores acutally ahve the thermal paste put on rihgt thoguh.
     
n8236
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May 19, 2006, 12:46 AM
 
62* at idle
82* at full load.
     
chadseld
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May 19, 2006, 01:02 AM
 
From what I can gather, reading about the MBP thermal issues, here are the good/bad ranges:

BAD
65c-70c idle & 85c-95c under load

GOOD
40c-50c idle & 60c-70c under load

In order to cause a kernel panic, I think the CPU needs to get above 100c. Also, these numbers are from the MacBook Pro. I'm not sure how the different case in the MacBook affects things. I.E. the good range may be higher for the MacBook because the plastic case doesn't conduct heat as easily?
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davidsi  (op)
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May 19, 2006, 01:15 AM
 
does anyone have any ideas on how to get this fixed wtih the artic silver without voiding the warranty?
     
Simon
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May 19, 2006, 02:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by StiZeven
63-66c is WAY too hot for ANY notebook - especially if that is at idle.
Why do you claim that? The max. operating temp is 100C. Do you no better what's good for a Core Duo than Intel?

My Pentium M (PC) Laptops never get over 50-55c
Irrelevant comparison. The P-M is clocked lower, probably has less cache (if it's anything else than a Dothan) and finally, it's only single core. The Core Duos Apple's using are faster, incorporate two cores and are certainly going to dissipate more heat. That's really no surprise at all.
     
Draco
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May 19, 2006, 10:35 AM
 
After only a few hours of using this beautiful device. My idle temps are arond 50-60c. Under load it hits 75c.

I'm not going to stress about it much unless the machine starts to exhibit problems. So far it's rock solid, albeit a bit toasty. I suppose if I'm feeling saucey, I may open it up and inspect the thermal connection between the heatsink and the core.
     
Voch
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May 19, 2006, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Why do you claim that? The max. operating temp is 100C. Do you no better what's good for a Core Duo than Intel?
I remember reading that sometime ago and it's good to hear again for confirmation. It's been rarely mentioned that the Core Duo processors may be more heat tolerant and can just run hotter naturally. My MacBook 2.0Ghz has reached 82 C under heavy load so I'm probably going to invest in a lap desk of some time for when I use it for hours at a time. But for me it's still cool enough for quickie lap-based web surfing.

Voch
     
StiZeven
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May 19, 2006, 11:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Why do you claim that? The max. operating temp is 100C. Do you no better what's good for a Core Duo than Intel?



Irrelevant comparison. The P-M is clocked lower, probably has less cache (if it's anything else than a Dothan) and finally, it's only single core. The Core Duos Apple's using are faster, incorporate two cores and are certainly going to dissipate more heat. That's really no surprise at all.
I am aware of the maximum operating temps from Intel, but I (and I am sure many others) prefer a notebook that doesn't run that hot. On top of sweaty palms and burning legs, heat will bring down performance.

If people are running at 65c at idle, then they will be dangerously close to the 100c (max) mark when pushing the processor. No, that is not normal - at least not to me. I don't want to cringe whenever I throw something CPU heavy at my MacBook thinking it's going to over-heat in the middle of doing something.

I've got a Dell 700m (Dothan 2GHz) that runs at about 40c idle, and a Sony FE (CoreDuo 2GHz) that runs at about 45c at idle. Both these notebooks trigger the (quiet) cooling fans to come on at about 50-55c. Yes, the Core Duo will be a smidge hotter (that's a given), but not nearly as hot as Apple's Intel portables. Not all PCs are the same of course, but the ones that run too hot are usually due to poor cooling systems and are usually avoided.

I can't see how anyone can deny that there is something wrong with the way Apple is cooling their Intel notebooks. Maybe it's not only the gobs of thermal paste, but also the way OS X utilizes the efficiency system within the Core Duo. Some users have stated that when they boot into XP on their MBP that they are getting cooler CPU temps than when they are booted into OS X. So, I am thinking it's a little bit of both (hardware and software).

It's also been proven that the proper application of thermal paste has severely reduced heat issues in MBP (enabling the fan and heat pipes to work properly). But, if reports of excessive heats, kernel panics, heaps of thermal paste with photos and actual temperature comparisons are not enough to convince some, then nothing will. It is Apple after all!

I am in the same boat as everyone else. My finger is over the 'Order' button as well (especially since BootCamp is around), but I just can't deal with hot a running notebook - especially knowing that they are hotter than they need to be. But, that's just me apparently.
     
StiZeven
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May 19, 2006, 11:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Draco
After only a few hours of using this beautiful device. My idle temps are arond 50-60c. Under load it hits 75c.

I'm not going to stress about it much unless the machine starts to exhibit problems. So far it's rock solid, albeit a bit toasty. I suppose if I'm feeling saucey, I may open it up and inspect the thermal connection between the heatsink and the core.
In comparison to what others have reported, those are pretty decent temps. Do you notice the fan running when it's under heavy load at that 75c mark?
     
Draco
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May 19, 2006, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by StiZeven
In comparison to what others have reported, those are pretty decent temps. Do you notice the fan running when it's under heavy load at that 75c mark?
Yes, the fan kicks on, but I have to get really close to the thing to hear it. Once I spend some more time with it, I'll share any new developments.

Btw, I don't know if anyone will find solace in this information... but I thought it was worth knowing about since everyone is up in arms in how hot this thing gets


"Apparently Core Duo CPUs are rated to 100C, over that data integrity suffers and at 125C they have a hard thermal shutdown feature to protect the CPU from actual damage.

They throttle to keep temps under 100C to ensure data integrity.

Throttling can also be used as power saving strategy.

Temps under 100C under load are within spec."


Here is a little light reading for you:

ftp://download.intel.com/design/mobi...s/30922102.pdf
     
StiZeven
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May 19, 2006, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Draco
Yes, the fan kicks on, but I have to get really close to the thing to hear it. Once I spend some more time with it, I'll share any new developments.
If the fan kicks on to keep the temps at a decent range (and it's quiet), than that's VERY good news! I wish others would report their temps/fan action, etc.
     
greenamp
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May 19, 2006, 12:53 PM
 
For the life of me I cannot hear my fans. I assume they are just too quiet? Because surely they should be kicking at the temps my BlackBook is getting to.
     
Draco
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May 19, 2006, 03:47 PM
 
I just happened to get my hands on a brand new T60 Thinkpad at work today. 2ghz Coreduo/2gb of ram. I've been trying to beat the hell out of this thing (processor wise) to get some temperature readings to compare. Running Prime 95 and UT2k4 simultaneously puts the cpu at around 75c. Somewhat cooler then the Macbook/Pro cousins. Granted, Lenovo appears to employ a rather large heatsink/ventilation system on this thing. How much of a diference their design versus Apple's makes, is anyones guess. So if the Macbook's are in the high 70's under load, I don't see much point in getting all worked up about it when other reputable laptops are near those temps. At idle the T60 is a relatively cool 50c

Having said all that I haven't had a chence to peg both cores on the Macbook like I was able to do on the T60. I'm fairly sure the macbook will run hotter.
( Last edited by Draco; May 19, 2006 at 04:40 PM. )
     
bensmom243
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May 19, 2006, 04:21 PM
 
And to be honest, most of what you all discuss on this forum goes way over my head. I am probably the "typical" iBook/MacBook user... some iTunes, lots of email and web surfing, iPhoto and minimal spreadsheet, word processing stuff.

The MacBook is definitely warm to the touch in the top left hand corner. I just downloaded some pictures, with mail, safari, iTunes running as well. The download took about one minute, and the temp got as high as 78C. CPU usage was about 38%. That is the most that I will probably ever use at one time. The fans kicked on at around 65C. It seems to be hanging around 60C with just light use.

I do know that it is fast, much faster than my G4 iBook. I am not going to get too stressed out about the heat, that is what AppleCare is for.

BTW, while at the Apple Store today, I looked closely at the black MacBooks. They all looked perfect to me, no scratches or peeling parts. Really nice looking, but over kill for what I need it for!
     
HarriganC
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May 19, 2006, 04:39 PM
 
Thanks, loving the reinforcement.... no flaking, peeling, yet at least.
     
harrisjamieh
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May 19, 2006, 05:42 PM
 
The thing I don't get about this whole heat issue is the fact that the iMac's don't suffer from it. I mean yes, the iMac has a larger enclosure and everything isn't so tightly packed in together, which helps, but if they are applying the same amount of thermal paste to the iMac as to the portables, then surely, after 10 mins of full load using the terminal command yes > /dev/null, my iMac would be hotter than 55oC?? Which begs the question, maybe Apple aren't putting as much thermal paste in the iMacs, and if so, why are they on the portables? It just doesnt add up
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Voch
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May 19, 2006, 07:32 PM
 
I just bought a $29 wood Creative Essentials Lap Desk from Staples and for usin' the MacBook on my lap (particularly because the rubber feet don't come off like on the bottom of the iBook). Works great.
     
force838
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May 19, 2006, 09:29 PM
 
coreduotemp giving me between 65-70 under normal web surfing conditions with brightness all the way up and the power cord plugged in.

subjectively, my macbook feels hottest on the back upper right and the corresponding upper left of the keyboard. the palm rests are a little hot, but not bad. i'm not really able to place it on my lap, even with pants on.

i'm seriously considering opening this bad boy up to see if it's a thermal paste issue like mentioned above. this just seems too hot to me. i've got a tube of arctic silver in the drawer waitin...

edit: i'm going to get dual booting going here tonite, i'll get a temp reading in windows and report back. that'll give us a good idea if this is a problem with OS X or not. if it's running at 65-70C in XP, then the problem would seem to be more hardware (or firmware??) oriented.
     
JAR
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May 19, 2006, 10:05 PM
 
Haha I really want to open it up but I'm half waiting for someone to do it first and post pics/instructions. I've worked on desktops and towers but not laptops (although these are so hot Apple doesnt even refer to them as 'laptops' hahaha), so I'm a little gunshy. I'm gonna open mine and redo the thermal paste sometime this weekend, but if anyone does it before me PLEASE post what you find!
     
nJm
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May 19, 2006, 11:42 PM
 
I'm typing this on a MacBook 1.83 at my local Apple shop at the moment and I can confirm it does not whine, is not hot despite being on all day running off AC and playing some quicktime 1080 trailers. I love it!

Only complaint is that the screen looks pretty crap unless you tilt it back, but once you're within its best viewing angles it looks fantastic.

I'll wait for them to get a black display model before I decide if its worth the extra money.
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Yakov
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May 20, 2006, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Draco
I just happened to get my hands on a brand new T60 Thinkpad at work today. 2ghz Coreduo/2gb of ram. ... Running Prime 95 and UT2k4 simultaneously puts the cpu at around 75c. ... So if the Macbook's are in the high 70's under load, I don't see much point in getting all worked up about it when other reputable laptops are near those temps.
This is the most important post on this topic I've seen yet, and it's quite reassuring to those of us who try to spend as much time in the reality-based community as possible. It bears repeating and enlarging, since I missed it my first time through this thread.
     
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May 20, 2006, 10:36 AM
 
Does the CPU of a 2.0 Ghz run hotter than a 1.83 Ghz?

And if these temperatures are so high, will they run reliable for many years? Also, I wonder whether some other parts of the MacBook won't be damaged after some time, especially if we use a MacBook during many hours a day....

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Daveecee
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May 20, 2006, 10:58 AM
 
People with blazing hot MBs are worried about a kernel panic? I'd be more worried about killing my sperm.
     
harrisjamieh
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May 20, 2006, 11:01 AM
 
I still can't quite comprehend why Apple's portables are so hot. When mine arrives, if it a) whines, b) has any cosmetic damage, or c) gets absurdly hot, I am sending it back for a replacement, and will keep doing it until I get a machine that I deem to be acceptable (of which I know some exist from reports on this forum)
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Voch
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May 20, 2006, 12:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by harrisjamieh
I still can't quite comprehend why Apple's portables are so hot.
It's because the Core Duo processor is designed to run hotter. I refer you to Draco's post in this thread that includes a link to a PDF file on the Intel site that contains temperature information. Now the case temp won't get as hot as the CPU, of course, but the case may get uncomfortable on the bottom left if you run a CPU intensive process for a few minutes.

I'm learning to live with it and it's not that bad. I have a small wood lap desk for my living-room based software development sessions (it's actually helped my posture to have a hard working surface under my MacBook). When I take my MacBook to meetings or to my coworker's home office I'll sit at a table and use my trusty Podium CoolPad Traveller that I was never without when I carried my TiBook.

Most of the time my MacBook is just warmish and completely silent because, well, I'm not constantly running two builds of my Java project (and when I do it lasts no longer than 54 seconds...4X faster than my TiBook...so if there's any fan spin-up it's only for a few seconds.)
     
JAR
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May 20, 2006, 12:09 PM
 
I think some of you guys don't get how freakin hot this thing is getting...

All I do with it so far is have a few widgets in dashboard, open firefox once in a while, and have adiumx or transmission on. That is NOT cpu intensive, and yet just leaving it on my desk will render the bottom surface TOO HOT TO TOUCH. I don't care what you say, but that is unacceptable and unexcusable. If the bottom of the case gets that hot, the CPU must be much MUCH hotter. Hell my brother's Sony Vaio runs on Core Duo AND has a GeForce 7400 128MB GPU and it doesn't even get CLOSE to as hot even when he plays Battlefield 2.

Looks like I'll be getting good use out of that apple care protection plan thing.
     
Voch
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May 20, 2006, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by puffarthur
All I do with it so far is have a few widgets in dashboard, open firefox once in a while, and have adiumx or transmission on. That is NOT cpu intensive, and yet just leaving it on my desk will render the bottom surface TOO HOT TO TOUCH.
That's definately not normal. I think you have a problem with your MacBook. I'm surfin' on a wood lapdesk and the bottom of mine is barely warm. Get it checked out at an Apple Store or get an RMA for a new one.
     
Simon
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May 20, 2006, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by puffarthur
I think some of you guys don't get how freakin hot this thing is getting...

All I do with it so far is have a few widgets in dashboard, open firefox once in a while, and have adiumx or transmission on. That is NOT cpu intensive, and yet just leaving it on my desk will render the bottom surface TOO HOT TO TOUCH.
If it's too hot to touch it's broken. They get warm, yes. But if you can't touch it, you need to take it in and have it fixed/replaced.
     
JAR
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May 20, 2006, 01:09 PM
 
Voch, Simon thanks for the feedback. I'll have to bring it back to my Apple store when I get a chance. Is there a procedure I need to follow, like calling ahead or making an appointment with the Genius Bar? Also, will they transfer my data and user settings, or do I need to backup everything first? And can I somehow test my replacement Macbook in the store to make sure it doesn't have the same problem?

Also, I've been running CoreDuoTemp for a while, and it isn't looking good. At first boot it idled around 50C, which only made the bottom slightly warm. After a while, idling around 5-10% CPU the temps were around 65C. If the CPU went to 25-50%, even briefly, the temps shot up to 70C easily. That is frightening to me because on my Athlon 64 desktop, I have it automatically shut down if the temps exceed 65C to avoid damaging the CPU and motherboard.
( Last edited by puffarthur; May 20, 2006 at 01:35 PM. )
     
Voch
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May 20, 2006, 01:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by puffarthur
Also, I've been running CoreDuoTemp for a while, and it isn't looking good. At first boot it idled around 50C, which only made the bottom slightly warm. After a while, idling around 5-10% CPU the temps were aroudn 65C. If the CPU went to 25-50%, even briefly, the temps shot up to 70C easily. That is frightening to me because on my Athlon 64 desktop, I have it automatically shut down if the temps exceed 65C to avoid damaging the CPU and motherboard.
I'd say those temps are on the high side of normal. In a test of the upper limits of my MacBook I got mine up to 86 C but I had to run the CPU at 100% for a few minutes (two simultaneous repeated builds of my Java project did the trick).

My Athlon 2400+ idles at 42 C or so and gets up to the mid 60's C when, say, DiVX-ing a movie (CPU intensive). However, there is no normal temperature for all processors.

The Core Duo runs fairly hot compared to G4s and Athlons. That can be seen two ways. Firstly, it's a bummer that it runs that hot compared to other older processors. But, conversely, it's amazing that it can run that hot inside the processor core and give us the processing power we want and not, well, malfunction or melt. Either way it's something Mac folks are going to have to get used to.

Admittedly, it's not the processor temp that should matter to us (as long as it's within spec, as apparently the mid 80's C is for a taxed Core Duo, but the case temperature. If it's causing you unreasonable discomfort when used under normal circumstances (you said you were using it flat on a desk and not on your lap, so that's reasonable) then contact someone at Apple.

I'm assuming/hoping/praying that Apple designed the components of the MacBook to withstand the heat of the new hotter Core Duo processor. It's just something we're going to have to get used to in the reflected higher case temperatures. But if the idea of using a mobile processor that, by its own specification, can get up 80 C + gets your knickers twisted then you currently don't have much of a choice in Apple mobile computing products.

I'm not apologizing on behalf of Apple nor am I being a simple-minded fanboy. I just think this is the way things are.

I guess I needed to rant a bit. But I'm still going to smile whenever I see those "80 degrees C...no way I'm buyin' one of those!" threads because I'm getting lots of work done on my MacBook and just dealing with the shortcomings.

Voch
     
 
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