[Sky Captain]

Too bad they probably won't pay it.

But this is a start.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Too bad they probably won't pay it.

But this is a start.

Agreed. It's too bad they couldn't sue for more actually. Posting pictures of this person's funeral on their website w/o permission has got to be bigger than $3,000.00.

Any resident MacNN lawyers here to clarify whether or not this family has a case?

[brassplayersrock²]

stupid people all of 'em. (the people of wesboro)

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Agreed. It's too bad they couldn't sue for more actually. Posting pictures of this person's funeral on their website w/o permission has got to be bigger than $3,000.00.

Any resident MacNN lawyers here to clarify whether or not this family has a case?

This is the ruling of a judge, in a lawsuit, so it obviously already is a case, that's over, unless the "church" appeals.

[Sky Captain]

And here's how we deal with our fringe fundamentalists.
YouTube - Westboro Gets their ass kicked

Now if only other religions will do the same.

[OldManMac]

Did getting their "asses kicked" (which this video didn't show; it only showed them being chased away from some event) change their viewpoints? I don't think so. If anything, it probably caused them to dig their heels in deeper, as it justifies, to them, their beliefs. It's amazing how such a small fraction of lunatics controls so many peoples' actions. If they didn't get a reaction, they would fade away, as they would realize they have no purpose. As abhorrent as they are, they're getting exactly what they want; attention. They're also showing the rest of us how violent we are, and how we falsely think violence solves anything. Religion shouldn't have anything to do with teaching violence, although it's been used forever to falsely justify it.

[Sky Captain]

Sometimes violent actions are the only method to stopping a cancer such as Phelps.
And they won't just fade away.
The "news media" will continue to give these loonies attention.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Sometimes violent actions are the only method to stopping a cancer such as Phelps.
And they won't just fade away.
The "news media" will continue to give these loonies attention.

You're right about the news media, but that's because we want the sensationalism. They're only giving us what we want. Apparently, someone is making you watch the news media; no one makes me do that. Unfortunately, you've shown how they are in control of your emotions, and, if you were to participate in violence against them, your actions. They're basically one extended family, yet they've got the power to get you so upset. History is full of people like this, and they eventually fade away, and another lunatic fringe comes along, and they fade away, but during their time in the sun, people give them much more power than they should have. That's sad.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Boy, you sure can twist things, Karl.

Clearly, what he’s talking about is that in this country, most people, and most Christians (the mainstream) don’t make heroes and ‘martyrs’ out of the nutball, fundamentalist fringe types. Making that crystal clear to them- yes, even with violence- is FAR better than the opposite, making nuts into martyrs, and terrorist leaders into heroes, and making sure that those types don’t feel at all ostracized from the mainstream. THAT type of behavior is what encourages the loonies to flourish and is what gives them power.

Fringe groups actually don’t just ‘fade away’ on their own, in fact the opposite is true when the ‘mainstream’ continually gives them their (at best tacit, and at worst, open) approval.

[OldManMac]

Boy, you sure can twist things, Crash.

I didn't say anything about making them into martyrs. This is a misguided, lunatic fringe, whose views aren't accepted by anyone except themselves. Their movement hasn't grown; it's a family of around 70 or 80 nutballs, run by a demented old man they call Gramps, and he runs it with an iron hand. They're already isolated from the mainstream, yet they continue to show up at military funerals, without additional support, exposing themselves for what everyone else perceives them to be. They thrive on reaction, and that's what they get, because most people get their underwear in knots over a few loonies, letting the inmates run the asylum. What these people represent is reprehensible to the vast majority of society; you don't have to be a liberal or a conservative to oppose them, and both sides of the aisle are full of people who realize they're just plain nuts. You seem, apparently, to be as afraid of them as too many others who give them far more credence than they deserve. You also seem to labor under the misguided notion that you can beat them into acceptance of your views. Do you honestly believe that if you "kick their asses" they're going to change their views? That's laughable. Is that all it would take for you to change some of your "core" values; to have your ass kicked? If so, then you're beliefs aren't that strong, are they?

At funerals they protest, the police are there to protect those honoring the dead, and that's what matters. I certainly wouldn't like it if they showed up at a funeral I was at, but their yelling and screaming doesn't change what I believe in, nor does it dishonor my perception of the deceased. That's what counts at the end of the day.

Do I like what these people do? Of course not. I think it's as reprehensible as the vast majority of Americans do. Apparently, one of the differences between me and you is that I understand what free speech means, and I don't feel threatened by a group of nutballs. I just started reading a book, Dissent In America, by Ralph F. Young. It's a compilation of 400 years of speeches, sermons, arguments, letters, songs, and articles that espouse a number of views from many different viewpoints. This country was founded by men who had radically different viewpoints than the tyrant that our founders overthrew, and our founders didn't all waltz around holding hands and hugging each other after the revolution; they continued to have radically different viewpoints, and we still do today. The difference is that they were intelligent enough to realize that they had to compromise on some issues, so that each could get a little of what they wanted, rather than nothing at all. Free speech is really a wonderful thing, except of course to those who feel threatened by it. You might want to learn about it.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Like I said: boy, you sure can twist things, Karl.

Once again, you (purposefully) missed the point, then went off on one of your usual tirades, flailing wildly and hitting nothing.

The point is not changing the minds of fringe nuts, it's KEEPING them just that- fringe nuts, not the mainstream.

Your silly tirade aside, you know damned well what was meant by martyrs- the fact that in too much of the Muslim world, people who should also be recognized as fringe religious kooks, are too often martyred and held up as heroes. Take a gander at popularity polls of terrorists and suicide bombers in the Middle East, even among so-called 'moderates'. Most Christians don't idolize or approve of terrorists and murderers, and they don't welcome fringe nuts who claim to be part of their religion. Therefore, it's not a popular option for very many to join the kooks.

What you don't seem to be grasping (purposefully, because far be it for you to drop the smokescreen of all your relativist bullcrap for two seconds) is that when the mainstream gives too much tacit and open approval to the "fringe", (as far too much of the Muslim world does to its fringe elements) it strengthens and increases the power of the fringe, and makes them no longer the "fringe" and more a part of the mainstream.

Even the most idiotic, lunatic nutball in this country knows better than to don a white sheet and try and raise hell in MOST of this country, without the threat of decent people kicking his ass up one side of the street, and down the other.

The constant threat of a good asskicking by their own people is EXACTLY what terrorists and fringe lunatic religious nuts of the Muslim faith (and any other) need. When those on the verge of wanting to join with the nuts see them being ostracized and getting their asses kicked, they tend not to want to go that route, and the fringe stays just that...the fringe.

You of course understand all this, but the whole silly construct of "fighting terror makes more terrorists wahhh!" that you libs have painted yourself into a corner with makes it impossible for you to admit that all your passive "go along and get along" bullcrap doesn't work in the real world.

And please- anyone on the left trying to lecture anyone else on freedom of speech is just too laughable. Political Correctness and labeling things you disagree with 'hate speech' and people being fired from their jobs not for any action they ever did, but using WORDS is totally a construct of the left which never stands for freedom of anything unless its something the left agrees with. So you can shove all your silly lecturing about that- it's not people on the right calling for firings and silencing people and boycotts every time they hear something that wets their panties on radio or TV.

[OldManMac]

Like I said, Crash, boy you sure can twist things.

This thread started out as a thread about a tiny lunatic fringe losing a lawsuit and somehow you managed to twist it into another one of your wildly absurd rants about Muslim terrorists. You should work on your anger problem, and it might also help clear your head, so that your reading comprehension improves as well.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

No, Sky Captain made a completely accurate point, which set you off on a tantrum because it clearly went against your relativist leftist tripe that can't deal with actually standing up to (let alone fighting) fundamentalists.

I think it's pretty obvious that clearly it's you and your ilk that are scared ****less of religious extremists, especially non-Christians, because you can't comprehend actually fighting them, always have an excuse for placating them, and act like they are super-human. "Oh boo hoo! Fighting them only makes more of them! Just do what they want and maybe they'll go away!" You quake in pee-your-pants fear of fundamentalists.

You use the that tired old 'anger issues' shield against literally EVERYONE, and once again, it's your signal of being unable to even mount an argument or answer a question.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

No, Sky Captain made a completely accurate point, which set you off on a tantrum because it clearly went against your relativist leftist tripe that can't deal with actually standing up to (let alone fighting) fundamentalists.

All Karl said was dealing with them in this way is inclined to make them more active, not less active. I tend to agree.

On the other hand, there is no way we are going to change their minds and convince them what they are doing is wrong. Honestly, instead of fining them, they should all be locked up for disturbing the peace.

[Doofy]

Let's get something straight fellas.

Christian fundamentalism = be excellent to each other, believe in Christ.
Phelps' congregation ≠ fundamentalism. Fringe loonies, yes. Fundamentalists, no.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Let's get something straight fellas.

Christian fundamentalism = be excellent to each other, believe in Christ.
Phelps' congregation ≠ fundamentalism. Fringe loonies, yes. Fundamentalists, no.

True, but there is something to fundamentalism being "alien" to mankind. Christians aren't supposed to be part of the mainstream. That said; I don't see homosexuality being a hinge point of any kind, but suffice it to say it is quite possible Christians will be viewed as a hinderance to progress on other issues. At some point we will be inconvenient to deal with. This issue just isn't it in my opinion.

[Sky Captain]

All fundamentalists scare me.
But don't think a fringe element can't gain control politically.
And everyone has to fight these people early, before they can grab a foothold.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

All fundamentalists scare me.
But don't think a fringe element can't gain control politically.
And everyone has to fight these people early, before they can grab a foothold.

You go on living in your irrational fear of a few nutballs. Talk about paranoia. Make sure you keep on top of the Westboro group; they're out to get you.

[Sky Captain]

So said the Germans in 1936.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

So said the Germans in 1936.

The Germans told you that Westboro was out to get you?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

No, Sky Captain made a completely accurate point, which set you off on a tantrum because it clearly went against your relativist leftist tripe that can't deal with actually standing up to (let alone fighting) fundamentalists.

I think it's pretty obvious that clearly it's you and your ilk that are scared ****less of religious extremists, especially non-Christians, because you can't comprehend actually fighting them, always have an excuse for placating them, and act like they are super-human. "Oh boo hoo! Fighting them only makes more of them! Just do what they want and maybe they'll go away!" You quake in pee-your-pants fear of fundamentalists.

You use the that tired old 'anger issues' shield against literally EVERYONE, and once again, it's your signal of being unable to even mount an argument or answer a question.

Wow. Talk about going off on a tantrum. I'll fight anyone who comes to these shores and threatens our American way of life, even those who don't believe in your misguided notions of what democracy entails.

Once again, it is you who twists things around. The tiny Westboro group poses absolutely no threat to my freedoms. Obviously, due to your own delusions and extreme paranoia, you feel that they pose some threats to you, so I have a solution. Next time they're at a funeral near where you are, go over there and kick their asses, and I'm sure that will straighten them right out and convince them that they were wrong. They'll also no doubt thank you for pointing out the error of their ways.

It is patently obvious that it is you who has a pee-in-your-pants fear of fundamentalists, and a grossly exaggerated one at that. Because of some bizarre deep seated fears you have, you need to find a bogeyman to occupy your time, so that you can plan how to kick someone's ass, and show them that you aren't afraid of them and they'd better not try to convert you, or else. Sky Captain, yourself, Orion27, and others of your ilk, should get together and develop new strategies in kicking peoples' asses, so that the world will be free, once and for all, from the tyranny of the Westboro Baptist Church. This will no doubt send a clear signal to others who espouse destroying our freedoms, and the world will once again be safe for democracy, and then you can be celebrated as the cause of a new era, where we can all sing kumbaya together.

As to your assertion that I use the anger issues defence against literally EVERYONE, I would suggest that this points to your need to extrapolate isolated incidents into generalizations, in order to once again bolster your preposterous beliefs that everyone is out to get you. I've used it on the rare occasion when it has been rightly deserved by its recipient. It isn't my fault that those recipients are disconnected from reality.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I am going to go on living my life, for the 20 or so years I have left on this rock, just the way I've lived it in the past, and when my time comes, my death will be a result of any of a number of causes other than attacks from the Westboro Baptist Church or any terrorists under my bed. Keep up the good fight.

[Sky Captain]

Originally Posted by Gossamer 

The Germans told you that Westboro was out to get you?

1933 - someone became chancellor of Germany.
And no one resisted early enough.
I mis-typed.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

1933 - someone became chancellor of Germany.
And no one resisted early enough.
I mis-typed.

It's okay.
I was just kidding
anyway.

[Sky Captain]

And I don't think anyone is out to get me personally.
Now force the population to convert to their way of thinking, I could see it happening after a nationwide catostophy.
I would restst. Strongly. And assist anyone being forced against theri will.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

1933 - someone became chancellor of Germany.
And no one resisted early enough.
I mis-typed.

And he convinced the German people, via constant repitition of false propoganda, that they had an enemy, and that they were superior to everyone else. We know what the result of that was. When I was a child, we used to do air raid drills, and hide under our desks at school, in case those Dirty Reds attacked us. Almost every generation in America's history has felt some irrational threat. Unfortunately, the old saying that those who forget history often repeat it is alive and well. Even some who don't forget it never learn from it.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

And I don't think anyone is out to get me personally.
Now force the population to convert to their way of thinking, I could see it happening after a nationwide catostophy.
I would restst. Strongly. And assist anyone being forced against theri will.

So you are secure enough in your beliefs to resist, but no one else is, right?

[Sky Captain]

I believe that there are enough scattered about to form a large enough group to become dangerous.
The KKK was almost large enough. Almost.
The Great Depression very well could have put them in power if the country had collapsed further.

[OldManMac]

If you knew anything about the KKK and its history, which you obviously don't, you'd know that the KKK's popularity plumetted during the Depresion. Another bogeyman that was eventually rendered insignificant, because its views correctly became regarded as the views of those on the fringe, and rational people realized there was nothing to fear. They're still around, numbering somewhere around 5,000, including a chapter here in Michigan, and they still hold their rallies, convincing each other of their beliefs, but the interesting thing is that they get little news coverage, because people ignore them, because they realize they're not a threat. Imagine that, which once again proves that, if you're truly secure in your beliefs, it doesn't matter if you're the last person on the planet who holds those beliefs. If you're not so secure, you feel threatened, and you need a bogeyman.

[sek929]

I say you need to go kick their asses Karl.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

If you knew anything about the KKK and its history, which you obviously don't, you'd know that the KKK's popularity plumetted during the Depresion. Another bogeyman that was eventually rendered insignificant, because its views correctly became regarded as the views of those on the fringe, and rational people realized there was nothing to fear. They're still around, numbering somewhere around 5,000, including a chapter here in Michigan, and they still hold their rallies, convincing each other of their beliefs, but the interesting thing is that they get little news coverage, because people ignore them, because they realize they're not a threat. Imagine that, which once again proves that, if you're truly secure in your beliefs, it doesn't matter if you're the last person on the planet who holds those beliefs. If you're not so secure, you feel threatened, and you need a bogeyman.

Geesh, why don't you skip all the smug lectures until you get a bit more grip on history yourself? The Klan was responsible for lynchings, terrorism and bombings straight into the 1960's. Their popularity didn't plummet in any era due to pacifism, it plummeted due to their being actively fought, and due to people recognizing that what they were preaching wasn't acceptable. (Again, the same lesson that more Muslims need to take on when dealing with their own extremists).

Blacks and other groups had plenty to fear from the Klan, so long as the areas where the Klan operated had the tacit and open approval of the community- the law would often be members themselves. I'm sure it's easy for you to sit on your ass in the complete safety of distance and time and act like anyone who had any fear of Klan reprisal and therefore couldn't lead a completely free life just had an "irrational fear" but it just shows your ignorance of actual history.

All of this didn't change because "Gee, black people should just be nice to the Klan, and not be so uppity, and then maybe they won't hate black people so much." (the SAME idiot line of reasoning you ascribe to Islamic Fundamentalists vs. the West) it happened because decent society in general got fed up with Klan types, just as they're fed up with Phelps types. Law enforcement began dismantling the Klan, and eventually holding their leaders financially responsible for the terror committed by their followers. It took a lot of fighting and people being killed to get to that point, not any of your "go along and get along" pacifist nonsense.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by goMac 

All Karl said was dealing with them in this way is inclined to make them more active, not less active. I tend to agree.

And you missed the point- making the kooks more or less active is a bunk argument, because the kooks themselves aren't who needs to get the message. Those that would also become kooks and make the kooks more powerful are who needs to get the message.

It was easy for anyone to join the 'fringe' and throw on a sheet and go out and attack and lynch people when such had the approval of entire societies, and was ignored by the rest of society.

Anyone who thinks that racists in the south or elsewhere welcomed cameras and reporters in to show the rest of the country what was actually going on, and that it somehow "strengthened" them, is just ignorant. People seeing images of blacks being beaten and firehosed, and Klan rallys and cross burnings etc. brought pressure to change from the rest of the country.

So the idea that exposing these people on TV or elsewhere only serves to help them (or that it just serves as titillation), is completely false, and that fighting and resisting somehow helps them is also false.

[OldManMac]

I'm well aware of how the Klan was minimized, and it wasn't because of anyone physically kicking their asses. It was done via legal measures; when they broke the law, the were arrested and sent to jail, and the message got out that you can't do what they did without consequences. The Westboro group has been and is still being minimized by legal measures, such as prohibiting their protests within certain distances from funerals, and via a number of lawsuits. The fact remains that this is a fringe group, and physically kicking their asses isn't going to accomplish anything. Thanks for the history lesson, though.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

I'm well aware of how the Klan was minimized, and it wasn't because of anyone physically kicking their asses. It was done via legal measures; when they broke the law, the were arrested and sent to jail, and the message got out that you can't do what they did without consequences. \

Do you really think that the Klan today would be scared ****less to march through a black neighborhood (and pretty much any neighborhood) because they're quaking in their boots over 'the law', or because they know damned well that they'd get their literal asses beaten? Heck, most places, it falls to the police to protect the kooks from the common citizens who come out ready to kick their asses.

That's the way it should be, and part of what keeps the most radical of kooks from flourishing the way they clearly do when society not only doesn't oppose them, but supports and idolizes them. Sorry if that's too difficult a concept to grasp.

The fact remains that this is a fringe group, and physically kicking their asses isn't going to accomplish anything.

Well, gee, sorry you're losing sleep over it. Meanwhile, most people would probably want to kick these idiot's asses if they showed up to try and ruin a funeral of a loved one.

[OldManMac]

So now you're going to justify vigilante justice, and tell us that two wrongs make a right. Hell, why even have laws? You don't like somebody or their beliefs, just kick their ass! I'm going to go to my next city council meeting and tell them we could save several million dollars a year, just by eliminating the police force. I mean, what use are assault, battery, and murder laws? Hell, we don't even need to kick their asses, and risk getting hurt in the process. We could use that savings, as individuals, to go out and buy guns and protect ourselves. Hell, we could even eliminate the courts and prison systems; just shoot everybody you don't agree with and we'd have more resources to spread around, as we'd have a few million less people to worry about. I guess the folks who brought us codified laws wasted their time all these years. Thanks for the idea.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

You think there weren't laws against murder, when the Klan was murdering people? Think again.

You think there weren't laws against bombings, rape, assault, torture and every other crime committed by the Klan? Think again.

Fringe kooks feel completely free to violate and break laws as they see fit when society looks the other way, or shows its approval for doing so.

Even at its best, the legal system is REACTIVE, not pro-active. (That is, too often, crime has to be committed before the law can act).

It's not enough to wave the law around in the face of extremist fringe kooks, and wait around for them to commit acts of terror. Society has to make it clear to them, that they ARE the fringe, and that their actions aren't tolerated. If that includes a good ass-kicking now and then, so be it.

Again, sorry if it's such a difficult thing for you to grasp. Go have a good cry for the Westboro nuts.

[OldManMac]

I'm not sorry, but rather saddened to think that to see that you think that you can justify making exceptions to the law whenever it's convenient to your goals. It clearly shows the irrational elevated threat that you perceive these freaks to be, when your argument is so desperate as to assume that I would "have a cry" for the lunatics. The only thing I would cry about is that you claim you want to uphold the principle of law and yet have your anarchy at the same time, and it doesn't work that way. What other laws do you then propose ignoring, when it's handy for you to do so? It's quite clear to me that I'm not the one having difficulty grasping things.

What's really bizarre about your argument is the fact that the Klan was broken up by law enforcement, not because of getting their asses kicked. As you yourself pointed out, people got tired of the lynchings and the discrimination, so they called upon law enforcement to eliminate these heinous acts. There were some small splinter groups who called for violence, but they too disappeared rather quickly when their leaders were jailed. There weren't black and whites roaming the nation, looking for KKK members to beat up. They organized and marched for voting rights, the right to eat at the same lunch counter, and the right to enjoy the same legal status as the whites had. I don't know how old you are, but I was a teen then. I remember it. The blacks and whites who marched together throughout the country during the 1960s marched peacefully, despite being some being murderd, and despite having police dogs sicked on them, and despite being turned back by water cannons, and despite their lives being threatened, because they were intelligent enough to realize that they weren't going to get the rest of society on their side by advocating lawlessness and more violence, and they got what they wanted, at least legally.

The real issue here, of course, is that you don't understand the concept of free speech, or perhaps more correctly, you choose to ignore it when others' views don't coincide with your own. For whatever reason, you need to conclude that these despicable peoples' words threaten you, so that gives you the justification you seek to act violently against them. You apparently, or so it seems to me, are afraid that, if not held in check, their power will grow, which is false. Despite all the hoopla about gay marriage in the news in the last few years, homosexuality is in fact more condoned today, if not totally accepted, by more people. The bans on gay marriage were primarily voted down by the people of my generation, who grew up in different times and who are set in their ways. Poll after poll shows that younger people growing up today correctly realize that gays are not a threat to them and that it's none of their business when it comes to the relationship between two consenting adults. They just don't feel threatened by gays. Despite more states passing gay marriage bans, more states are also passing civil union legislation, and the time will come when history judges the banning of gay marriage as just another aberration that mankind has passed through. The Westboro Baptist Church isn't going to change that, whether they get their asses kicked or not. You, and a few others, give them more power than they deserve and actually have. This is just another case of sensationalism driving the "news," and people falling for it. because they act on emotion, and not logic. You might want to pursue some deep introspection as to why you think that violence is going to change that, and why you think that violence brings peace. ........Nah, who am I kidding?