[von Wrangell]

Let the usual apologists do their thing but I thought it would be worth posting this here even so.

Near East: Switzerland calls on Israel to uphold international humanitarian law

03.07.2006

The Swiss Federal Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) is deeply concerned about the recent escalation in violence in the Near East and its humanitarian consequences. As the occupying power, it demands that Israel respect international humanitarian law in its military efforts to liberate a captured soldier. The Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation (SDC), which is part of the DFA, has earmarked an additional one million Swiss francs for essential medical supplies for the civilian population in the Gaza Strip

The recent escalation in violence has reached a new peak with the destruction of the offices of the Palestinian prime minister. The DFA is deeply concerned about this development and has renewed its appeal to Israel, as the occupying power, to respect international humanitarian law in the measures it undertakes to liberate the captured soldier. It appeals to the soldier’s captors to treat him humanly.

A number of actions by the Israeli Defence Forces in their offensive against the Gaza Strip have violated the principle of proportionality and are to be seen as forms of collective punishment, which is forbidden. For the DFA, there is no doubt that Israel has not taken the precautions required of it in international law to protect the civilian population and infrastructure. The destruction of a power station, the attack on the offices of the Palestinian Prime Minister, the arbitrary arrests of a large number of democratically elected representatives of the people and ministers, as well as the withdrawal of the residence permits of three members of parliament and a minister in East Jerusalem cannot be justified. Attacks on civilian property are forbidden by international law. The DFA demands that Israel forgo any further attacks on civilian property, ensure the protection of the civilian population, and release the detained representatives insofar as no concrete grounds in individual cases exist that fully justify their lawful arrest.
Humanitarian consequences

The power station that was destroyed by the Israeli forces on 28 June, provided 43 per cent of the electricity supply to the Gaza Strip. 700,000 people have been affected by power cuts. Water supplies have also been badly hit since not all pumps can continue to function, and in addition there is a lack of petrol and other fuels. It will take quite some time to repair the power station and only then if the necessary parts can be delivered to the Gaza Strip. The situation is also worrying in the hospitals and health centres, which are lacking water and where there is no longer enough fuel for their generators. The transportation of goods and persons is hardly possible, causing a general lack of fresh produce, meat and diary products, which are left rotting in warehouses. The opening of the checkpoint at Karni, which is important for goods handling, is essential for resuming food supplies.

Already in June 2006, the Swiss Agency for Development and Cooperation approved one million francs for the purchase of medicines. A second million has now been earmarked for supplying the civilian population with essential goods. An expert has been deployed to the crisis zone to ensure the smooth running of the humanitarian operations.
Last week, the DFA received representatives of both sides to demand compliance with the rules of international humanitarian law. It also called for the rapid release of the captured Israeli soldier as an important step towards calming the current situation.



Federal Department of Foreign Affairs
http://www.eda.admin.ch/eda/e/home/singlem.html?id=5978

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

You won't deserve any replies until you go back to the discussion thread where you made racist remarks. You have failed to answer the responses there and until you do there's no reason to continue debating with you. I urge everyone to ignore you until you apologise for or further explain your Palestinian Arabs versus "White European" Jews theory.

Don't try to ignore it any further. I'm going to be on your back about it non-stop and hope everyone else who wants your answers asks too.

[voodoo]

Rule 8 violation.

You should know better vW


Eighth rule of the Political Lounge: No posting and running. Give an opinion, your slant, anything in regards to what you're posting. Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion. Avoid it.


V

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Obi Wan's Ghost

You won't deserve any replies until you go back to the discussion thread where you made racist remarks. You have failed to answer the responses there and until you do there's no reason to continue debating with you. I urge everyone to ignore you until you apologise for or further explain your Palestinian Arabs versus "White European" Jews theory.

Don't try to ignore it any further. I'm going to be on your back about it non-stop and hope everyone else who wants your answers asks too.

yada yada yada........

Please stay on topic. If you don't like it or what I post you can either ignore threads I start or put me on ignore.

An advice to you. Read the rules of the forum before you go on another tirade.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Rule 8 violation.

You should know better vW


Eighth rule of the Political Lounge: No posting and running. Give an opinion, your slant, anything in regards to what you're posting. Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion. Avoid it.


V

As I said:

Let the usual apologists do their thing but I thought it would be worth posting this here even so.

Even highlighted for you this time.

[PacHead]

Switzerland ?

Who cares what they think ? Can they do anything about it ?



The swiss are probably angry because they can't get in on the action and make a financial profit from this particular war.

[lil'babykitten]

Good on the Swiss but unfortunately the impact of this statement will be minimal.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Good on the Swiss but unfortunately the impact of this statement will be minimal.

And that's being optimistic.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

As I said:


Even highlighted for you this time.

You said nothing.

Saying "hey here is a thing I copied" is not saying anything. Cut the crap.

V

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by lil'babykitten

Good on the Swiss but unfortunately the impact of this statement will be minimal.

No kdding, nobody can stop Israel from defending itself against terrorists. Not the swiss and not anybody else either.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by voodoo

You said nothing.

Saying "hey here is a thing I copied" is not saying anything. Cut the crap.

V

Then report me.

You are not a moderator here. So if you have a problem with my OP you just need to report it. No need to try to derail the thread.

[vmarks]

META discussion:

1) It really is nice to see other forum members stand by the rules and remind others. It means that there's something about this place that leads readers to invest themselves in the rules to keep it a worthwhile place to post and read. Thanks, voodoo.

2) Most posters who get caught by this rule tend to edit their original post to comply, rather than respond with 'You're not a moderator, go jump in a lake.' The latter response shows a lack of respect for discussion, and is more of the sentiment 'I'll post what I like, and don't care what you have to say about it.'

On Topic:

The Swiss, those moral moral people.

Really bizarre that the two European countries that sat out WWII (Sweden and Switzerland) seem to think they have ANY moral standing.

The only thing Switzerland is good for is safekeeping the world's dictators stolen money. Other than that, it is irrelevant.

Switzerland, the country that remained neutral as millions of people were brought like cattle to be gassed in the single most horrific event in human history.

Who gives a rat's behind about international law? Why must Israel be held to this insane standard? What law has been broken? Proportionality? When an act of war has been committed against you?

What does that say, that it is okay for Hamas (the elected government) to have their military wing (same goal, same purpose) to kidnap Israelis, civilian and soldier alike, and for Israel to not have the right of defense? That it is okay for Hamas to suicide bomb and launch rockets at Israeli civilians (collective punishment?) but not for Israel to dare to respond?

What authority enforces this law?

Hitler's bankers passing judgement on who's abiding by the Geneva Conventions and who ain't.

That's rich!

If they feel bad about the poor Gazans, maybe they can return some of the several billions of dollars of Arafat's embezzled money that they are holding.

They are morally bankrupt. Now more than ever.

[von Wrangell]

Ahhh, the good old defence Zionists come up with every time.

1. Talk about WWII
2. Remind people of the holocaust.
3. Complain that "the other side" isn't criticised.
4. Mention Hitler at least once.
5. And for the love of G-d don't talk about the actual point here. Don't answer anything mentioned in the article brought up.
6. Rinse and repeat.

As for Rule 8. It simply says this:
Eighth rule of the Political Lounge: No posting and running. Give an opinion, your slant, anything in regards to what you're posting. Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion. Avoid it.

I did that in the opening post. But I'll promise I'll dumb it down next time. Short sentences with everything spelt out clearly. And no big words.

Everyone happy?


(perhaps I'll even do that to this thread tomorrow after work.......)

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Ahhh, the good old defence Zionists come up with every time.

1. Talk about WWII
2. Remind people of the holocaust.
3. Complain that "the other side" isn't criticised.
4. Mention Hitler at least once.
5. And for the love of G-d don't talk about the actual point here. Don't answer anything mentioned in the article brought up.
6. Rinse and repeat.

As for Rule 8. It simply says this:
Eighth rule of the Political Lounge: No posting and running. Give an opinion, your slant, anything in regards to what you're posting. Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion. Avoid it.

I did that in the opening post. But I'll promise I'll dumb it down next time. Short sentences with everything spelt out clearly. And no big words.

Everyone happy?


(perhaps I'll even do that to this thread tomorrow after work.......)

Ah, perhaps I need to shorten my sentences for you.

I addressed why the Swiss have no moral standing to comment.

I addressed the question of what law has been broken. The Swiss allege a law has been broken, but don't specify which law. Why is that?

And then I offer a way for the Swiss to show their concern: Release the money that Arafat hoarded with them.

Why yes, I did address the point. Head on.

[Shaddim]

What did they do with all der Furor's gold, you know, the gold from the teeth of all the Jews who were gassed and butchered in concentration camps?

Great moral high ground, eh?

[voodoo]

"Let the usual apologists do their thing but I thought it would be worth posting this here even so."

Is this an opinion? - Nope
Your slant? (that means your interpration or comment on the contents of the article) - Nope
Is this anything in regards to what you're posting? Oh no. Then one would perhaps be able to discern from what you posted what the article you quote is about, i.e. the topic of discussion.

There is no topic of discussion. Flamebaiting?

The only text you posted is a boilerplate that could be applied to nearly any post and run gig.

"Simply posting a news story and no context or direction is not conducive to fostering discussion."

This is what you did. Why? Who knows. Who cares. But a rule 8 violation, as vmarks - a moderator of this forum - agrees and suggests you edit the original post.

V

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I addressed why the Swiss have no moral standing to comment.

Seems slightly unfair to me to call the modern day Swiss people morally bankrupt, just because their profiteering banker forebears, sixty-odd years ago, fondued some gold teeth and remained neutral during World War 2 and holocaust.

And of course, the Swedes have no moral standing, either. Nice, that's telling them. Nasty, evil Swedes.

I wonder how modern day Germans and Italians fare in your estimation, do you think they're all Nazis and Fascists?

[Sky Captain]

He didn't call them morally bankrupt.
Just that why start now.
They had nothing to say 65 years ago. Why start now?

[PacHead]

'Neutral' countries have the right to remain 'neutral', they really don't have much that they can say about other countries.

Hopefully somebody will invade Switzerland one day and I hope that nobody comes to their aid, that's neutrality for you. The world can make do without their chocolate or watches or their cheese.

[von Wrangell]

Interesting to see that most of you don't understand the importance of this statement coming from Switzerland. Not surprising but interesting still.

[von Wrangell]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5145654.stm

[PacHead]

The Swiss are terrorist enablers, they should mind their own business.

Earlier this year, the Swiss President Moritz Leuenberger caused anger in Israel when he said the international block on funding to the Palestinian authority was a mistake.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Interesting to see that most of you don't understand the importance of this statement coming from Switzerland. Not surprising but interesting still.

It's not important, they can't do anything about it. Swiss words mean nothing.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The Swiss are terrorist enablers, they should mind their own business.

Earlier this year, the Swiss President Moritz Leuenberger caused anger in Israel when he said the international block on funding to the Palestinian authority was a mistake.

There are many anti-Semites in the world, he's just one of them.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

There are many anti-Semites in the world, he's just one of them.

So now you're an anti-Semite if you think starving a nation is a bad idea? Seriously, what has happened to you?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So now you're an anti-Semite if you think starving a nation is a bad idea? Seriously, what has happened to you?

I'm tired of seeing my friends and family harmed/killed by Palestinian terrorists. It's over, and I'm not going to be patient anymore.

As of last week I'm actively supporting military action against Palestine, sending them money and whatever aid I can... will likely even go back to serve again, if they'll let me.

[Kevin]

When I hear the Swiss tell Palestinians to say, let go of Israel's soldier.

Or stop blowing each other up, you know, what is cause this all. I'll take it a bit more seriously.

Till then, meh.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I'm tired of seeing my friends and family harmed/killed by Palestinian terrorists.

What do you think Palestinians are saying right now - as they sit in 40 degree heat with no electricity or water. What do you think they're saying right now with missiles and tanks and bullets at every corner? What do you think they're saying as THEIR friends and family are harmed and killed by Israelis?

Let me ask you this, if the Palestinians stepped up the level of violence against Israelis, would you be more or less likely to make peace? Exactly! So why the f#ck do you think that going down there and killing them isn't going to have the same effect their killing your friends would have?

The entire problem with the savages on both sides of this problem is that you really think that killing each other is going to bring you closer to a solution. The sooner all of those who think violence is the solution start actually killing each other, the better. That will leave the sane few to settle their differences.

[vmarks]

Or convince one side to find the mark where they no longer can afford to lose.

This ends one of two ways:
Either Israel ceases to exist and the Jews leave or are the recipients of genocide again.

OR.

The Palestinians cease to attempt to eradicate Israel and live in peace.

Neither side has lost badly enough to consider those options seriously yet.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Troll

What do you think Palestinians are saying right now - as they sit in 40 degree heat with no electricity or water. What do you think they're saying right now with missiles and tanks and bullets at every corner? What do you think they're saying as THEIR friends and family are harmed and killed by Israelis?

Let me ask you this, if the Palestinians stepped up the level of violence against Israelis, would you be more or less likely to make peace? Exactly! So why the f#ck do you think that going down there and killing them isn't going to have the same effect their killing your friends would have?

The entire problem with the savages on both sides of this problem is that you really think that killing each other is going to bring you closer to a solution. The sooner all of those who think violence is the solution start actually killing each other, the better. That will leave the sane few to settle their differences.

Agree with everything except the last part (about the war starting).

I found this the other day and I think it applies well to both sides:

http://www.kamat.com/mmgandhi/mideast.htm

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Or convince one side to find the mark where they no longer can afford to lose.

This ends one of two ways:
Either Israel ceases to exist and the Jews leave or are the recipients of genocide again.

OR.

The Palestinians cease to attempt to eradicate Israel and live in peace.

OR.

The Jews level Palestine (all of it) and thus it ceases to be a threat.

IMHO, in the real world this is the only valid option.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Or convince one side to find the mark where they no longer can afford to lose.

This ends one of two ways:
Either Israel ceases to exist and the Jews leave or are the recipients of genocide again.

OR.

The Palestinians cease to attempt to eradicate Israel and live in peace.

Neither side has lost badly enough to consider those options seriously yet.

Of course those are the only two options.

The world is also black and white.

There only exists good and evil absolutes.

Israel has never done anything remotely bad.

Palestine has never done anything good.

Wait, perhaps you'll understand this better:


01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110111 01101111 01110010 01101100 01100100 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100001 01101100 01110011 01101111 00100000 01100010 01101100 01100001 01100011 01101011 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101001 01110100 01100101 00101110

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Doofy

OR.

The Jews level Palestine (all of it) and thus it ceases to be a threat.

IMHO, in the real world this is the only valid option.

head

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Troll

What do you think Palestinians are saying right now - as they sit in 40 degree heat with no electricity or water. What do you think they're saying right now with missiles and tanks and bullets at every corner? What do you think they're saying as THEIR friends and family are harmed and killed by Israelis?

Let me ask you this, if the Palestinians stepped up the level of violence against Israelis, would you be more or less likely to make peace? Exactly! So why the f#ck do you think that going down there and killing them isn't going to have the same effect their killing your friends would have?

The entire problem with the savages on both sides of this problem is that you really think that killing each other is going to bring you closer to a solution. The sooner all of those who think violence is the solution start actually killing each other, the better. That will leave the sane few to settle their differences.

Tough, they should have stopped attacking Israel. They made their bed, they can lie in it... or, they can die. They (the Palestinians) wanted war, wanted to be considered lawful combatants (instead of the terrorist sh#t that they are), now they can reap the rewards.

"Hello, this is a Fuel-Air explosive, it destroys everything for a 1/4 mile, congrats."

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy

OR.

The Jews level Palestine (all of it) and thus it ceases to be a threat.

IMHO, in the real world this is the only valid option.

Well said. It's time for action.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

As I said:


Even highlighted for you this time.

I'm with voodoo on this one vW. It's annoying when abe does it and it's annoying when you do it (or anyone else, for that matter)

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

head

Yep.

Now, try playing the scenario out in the real world. Take it as a chess game and play every course of action out to checkmate or stalemate. There ya go.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks

On Topic:

The Swiss, those moral moral people.

Really bizarre that the two European countries that sat out WWII (Sweden and Switzerland) seem to think they have ANY moral standing.

The only thing Switzerland is good for is safekeeping the world's dictators stolen money. Other than that, it is irrelevant.

Switzerland, the country that remained neutral as millions of people were brought like cattle to be gassed in the single most horrific event in human history.

Who gives a rat's behind about international law? Why must Israel be held to this insane standard? What law has been broken? Proportionality? When an act of war has been committed against you?

What does that say, that it is okay for Hamas (the elected government) to have their military wing (same goal, same purpose) to kidnap Israelis, civilian and soldier alike, and for Israel to not have the right of defense? That it is okay for Hamas to suicide bomb and launch rockets at Israeli civilians (collective punishment?) but not for Israel to dare to respond?

What authority enforces this law?

Hitler's bankers passing judgement on who's abiding by the Geneva Conventions and who ain't.

That's rich!

If they feel bad about the poor Gazans, maybe they can return some of the several billions of dollars of Arafat's embezzled money that they are holding.

They are morally bankrupt. Now more than ever.

I agree with you about Switzerland, but do you really think "international law" is irrelevant? It seems plenty relevant when being levelled against Iraq, Iran, and North Korea and is only considered irrelevant when being levelled against the US and Israel.

[Monique]

First the case for Switzerland, they have no standing it is because of them that nazis escape after the 2nd world war; they sold Jews for money; when it comes to Israel they have no standing. And they dare after the war tell the survivors that they needed death certificates. (being sarcastic with the following) I am sure the nazis were ready to issue death certificates for every victim they murder. The only standing really they have is with dictators for hiding the money they steal from poor people. I am not surprised they would help the people that want all Jews to be murdered.

By the way it could not be francs, they are in the union and the money is called Euros.

Another thing, how do you know if the Palestenians have running water or not, have air conditioning or not. And do you really think that they would be better of if all the Jews in the world were murdered by terrorists.

And of course they are going to respond after an attack, it is a matter of survival and they will always have the world support.

It would be easy for the Palestenians to give up and live elsewhere; especially when it comes to the present generation who do not have any clue what Palestine used to look like.

[lpkmckenna]

Several people have said it: "Switzerland's opinion today is irrelevant, because of actions by the Swiss gov't 60 years ago."

Yeah, that makes sense.

It's not like they invaded a country on false pretenses or anything.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Monique

By the way it could not be francs, they are in the union and the money is called Euros.

Another thing, how do you know if the Palestenians have running water or not, have air conditioning or not. And do you really think that they would be better of if all the Jews in the world were murdered by terrorists.

1. I have friends both working there and living there.

2. Of course not.

And of course they are going to respond after an attack, it is a matter of survival and they will always have the world support.

I've got no problem with them responding to attacks. But I do have a problem with blatant violation of international laws and human rights. But it seems you are fine with that.

It would be easy for the Palestenians to give up and live elsewhere; especially when it comes to the present generation who do not have any clue what Palestine used to look like.

Another proposal for ethnic cleansing. Anyone know what the laws are about hate speech where this forum is hosted? Perhaps that's the only way to do something about this. The moderators obviously won't.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The swiss are probably angry because they can't get in on the action and make a financial profit from this particular war.

A sad fact, indeed.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

1. I have friends both working there and living there.

2. Of course not.

I've got no problem with them responding to attacks. But I do have a problem with blatant violation of international laws and human rights. But it seems you are fine with that.



Another proposal for ethnic cleansing. Anyone know what the laws are about hate speech where this forum is hosted? Perhaps that's the only way to do something about this. The moderators obviously won't.

It's not ethnic cleansing, it's war. Palestine wants to be considered a country. They want to be responsible for international relations. Fine, they're at war now, a "legal" combatant (though we all know that their gov't is a terrorist organization). Welcome to war, whole cities get leveled, countries get rearranged or wiped off the map, it's ugly... however, given that Israel has no other option, Palestine will simply be removed.

If the other ME countries want to get involved, then they're more than welcome, Israel might not stop this time.

Remember, all they had to do was stop attacking Israel.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Anyone know what the laws are about hate speech where this forum is hosted? Perhaps that's the only way to do something about this. The moderators obviously won't.

Don't be going there vW. One mention of your sig to Interpol and you're off on a short vacation.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Monique

First the case for Switzerland, they have no standing it is because of them that nazis escape after the 2nd world war; they sold Jews for money;

Where do you get this crap from? The Swiss sold Jews for money?? Are you insane?

Swiss banks profited from unclaimed Jewish and Nazi money, I give that to you, but they also took in and protected refugees including Jews from all over Europe. Switzerland is a tiny country. Besides, let's remember that a blitzkrieg attack would have gone from Zurich to Geneva in a couple of hours. The Nazis were stronger than the rest of Europe put together; it would have been fruitless for the Swiss to resist. Staying neutral was an achievement in itself.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Fine, they're at war now, a "legal" combatant (though we all know that their gov't is a terrorist organization).

Whether or not the government you serve is a terrorist organisation makes absolutely no difference at all to the question of whether you are a lawful combatant. It would be ridiculous if that were a consideration.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Welcome to war, whole cities get leveled, countries get rearranged or wiped off the map, it's ugly...

No, what you are talking about are called war crimes and people go to jail or get killed for committing them. Contrary to Israeli opinion, you cannot target civilians in a war and you cannot keep territory that you take. That's stuff from the Middle Ages which is unfortunately where barbarians like you appear to have remained.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Remember, all they had to do was stop attacking Israel.

All Israel has to do is stop oppressing Palestinians. Your argument is just so facile it's laughable. Both sides can justify the violence.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Tough, they should have stopped attacking Israel.

These militants attacked a MILITARY TARGET. You know, the way Israel arbitrarily attacks military targets in the Occupied Territories and takes prisoners.

Originally Posted by MacNStein

They made their bed, they can lie in it... or, they can die.

What makes you so confident you can win? Do you know how many more Palestinians than Israelis there are? Do you not think the world learnt its lesson in the holocaust and would intervene if Israel started committing genocide?

Israel would lose a war with the Palestinians - just as this incursion has had exactly the opposite effect they intended. Blowing up the electricity supply has hardened the local population, created more local terrorists, made it less likely that anyone will tell Israel where their soldier is, made it more likely he will be killed and drawn more international condemnation for Israeli collective punishment.

Israel has a bit of an ego problem. It's a tiny little country on the international scene. It's not the superpower some of you think it is. If it started ethnic cleansing, it wouldn't survive very long at all.

[Chuckit]

From what I know of their situations, Israel is way more advanced than Palestine. It would be tanks and missiles versus a bunch of guys with machine guns and bombs strapped to their chests.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

What makes you so confident you can win?

Israel would lose a war with the Palestinians -

LOL !



Priceless.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

From what I know of their situations, Israel is way more advanced than Palestine. It would be tanks and missiles versus a bunch of guys with machine guns and bombs strapped to their chests.

It wouldn't make a difference, Israel already beat the other side numerous times, when the other side had more tanks, more planes, better equipment and more soldiers.