[Lerkfish]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I think in your attempt to sling mud, you actually made my point.

**shhhhh*** maybe he won't notice.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I think in your attempt to sling mud, you actually made my point.

[Monique]

Of course Canada is haven for terrorism since if you say that you are a professional you will get in really easily and the authorities do not care if you were a criminal or not and it is different if you are poor.

Anyway the Canadians hate the Americans so much that they will facilitate the exportation of terrorists to the U.S.

You just have to see the reaction of Canada after the attack of September 11, some even applauded.

And the charming Premier we had at the time prefered to go to a fundraiser instead of going to New York city and he took his sweet time to go there.

[Jim Paradise]

Originally posted by Monique:
Of course Canada is haven for terrorism since if you say that you are a professional you will get in really easily and the authorities do not care if you were a criminal or not and it is different if you are poor.

Anyway the Canadians hate the Americans so much that they will facilitate the exportation of terrorists to the U.S.

You just have to see the reaction of Canada after the attack of September 11, some even applauded.

And the charming Premier we had at the time prefered to go to a fundraiser instead of going to New York city and he took his sweet time to go there.

Um, which country allowed a whole slew of American planes in while the attack was underway? It certainly wasn't Mexico or Britain...

[Monique]

Big deal you had to take care of a few more planes (I believe 200) during one day; but do not ask to go further; it would be too much to ask. Courage is not to give a sandwich to stranded travelers but to actually get involved. You don't mind that terrorists use this country as a haven and then go kill innocent people in another.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Monique:
Big deal you had to take care of a few more planes (I believe 200) during one day; but do not ask to go further; it would be too much to ask. Courage is not to give a sandwich to stranded travelers but to actually get involved. You don't mind that terrorists use this country as a haven and then go kill innocent people in another.

Are you an American citizen or a Reform Party citizen?

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quote from Monique:

ig deal you had to take care of a few more planes (I believe 200) during one day; but do not ask to go further; it would be too much to ask. Courage is not to give a sandwich to stranded travelers but to actually get involved. You don't mind that terrorists use this country as a haven and then go kill innocent people in another.

____________________________

First of all, before going on a revenge rampage, you need to know who did the deed.

Second of all, then you gather your friends with proof, you do not bully them into doing what you want simply because it is "good".

No question something had to be done. But whether it should have been done that way is a question everybody is looking at now. And it appears more and more that the Bush/Blair coalition had other plans in mind.

If Canada is a haven for terrorist is very possible. But it is not the only one, and it is not clear whether there are not more in the U.S.

You can also ask yourself the question as to why the whole thing happenend in the first place, and why there are terrorists. You can also ask for the reasons there were "FBI overall unclear threaths".

You can ask more and more questions as to whom is "good" and who is "evil".

You might it is not that clear cut as you think...

Maybe, Monique, you are a terrorist yourself and do not even know about it...

Let's look at your clothes for instance. Where were they manufactured? Who made them? How much were they paid to do those clothes? And your car? Where was it made? by whom? And your fancy electronics? Where were they made? How much the people who made them were paid to do that? And the fuel for your car: is it from Canada? Or is it from somewhere else? And how can you tell?

Answering these questions may give you a different picture of what is terrorism and how violence in Western countries may have started.

Is terrorism good? No. Does it start from something? Very likely. What does it start from is the question you should ask and then, then you may see you live in a very complicated world...

[DBursey]

Originally posted by Monique:
Big deal you had to take care of a few more planes (I believe 200) during one day; but do not ask to go further; it would be too much to ask. Courage is not to give a sandwich to stranded travelers but to actually get involved. You don't mind that terrorists use this country as a haven and then go kill innocent people in another.

God, I hate committing myself to these little spitting matches here at AttackNN, but Monica's vile bit of misinformation makes me sick to my stomach.

I remember 9/11. I remember women crying in my office here in Toronto. I remember the sea of volunteers boarding hundreds of buses to NYC. I remember the veritable sea of American flags (otherwise never seen in the patriotic heart of Canada, where the Maple Leaf is worn on the heart and the sleeve) being flown in a show of unity with our southern neighbours. I'm sickened by your casual dismissal of the outpouring of humanity in Newfoundland when thousands of weary American travelers, barred from returning home on flights from overseas, were taken into homes for days on end and treated as family by welcoming citizens who sympathized with their plight, and who were motivated by nothing more than human decency and compassion.

There are no terrorists being welcomed to Canada. Our hand has been forced by the mess created by an American regime that used and manipulated 9/11 as an excuse to invade an all-but demilitarized country who had nothing to do with Al Qaeda or the young Saudis trained in the U.S. to fly airliners but not to land them.

Canada has bent over backward to accommodate America's paranoia (has anyone tried flying to the U.S. lately?). Sometimes bending over in the wrong company gets you a painful reward.

Monica, your bitterness comes from within, not from your fellow citizens whom you choose to disparage at every opportunity. Once I found you pathetic; now you are simply contemptible. I've diagnosed your chronic cranial rectosis ... the eyes cannot see when the head is planted firmly up the anus. Do your fellow citizens a favor and move to New Jersey!

[SimeyTheLimey]

I searched Google looking for the incident in 2000 when a terrorist crossing over from Canada was intercepted with a bomb in his trunk. People seem to have forgotten that this is a problem that was apparent long before 9/11. here is a link.

I also found this link. Apparently, there is some recognition that there is a legitimate issue, and work to be done.

The Government of Canada quickly implemented its Anti-Terrorism Plan, with five clear objectives:


to prevent terrorists from getting into Canada;
to protect Canadians from terrorist acts;
to bring forward tools to identify, prosecute, convict and punish terrorists;
to keep the Canada-U.S. border secure and open to legitimate trade; and
to work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice and address the root causes of terrorism.
The Government of Canada is supporting this plan by introducing strong new legislation and investing $7.7 billion to fight terrorism and reinforce public security.
Putting More People, Technology and Capacity in Place

Canada invested $280 million in immediate measures -- such as enhanced policing, security and intelligence -- in the wake of September 11.
Key initiatives included:


fast-tracking a fraud-resistant Permanent Resident Card for new immigrants;
more front-end security screening for refugee claimants;
increased detention capacity;
increased deportation activity;
hiring of new staff to enforce upgraded security at ports of entry;
redeployment of over 2000 federal police officers to national security duties;
technology upgrades, equipment purchases and training to increase capacity to: etc. . .

The fact is that we are all in this together and countries that neighbor one another have to work together to prevent international terrorists from exploiting political boundaries to their advantage.

[DBursey]

I agree, Simey. That's exactly what's been happening. Kudos to you for actually checking the facts.

Canada's Actions against Terrorism since 9/11

Government of Canada introduces Anti-Terrorism Act

Overview of Canadian Anti-Terrorist Activities

Enhancing Security for Canadians

Do Americans even have a clear notion of the 'war on terror' and its objectives, misled as they have been by a dishonest President who at the most inopportune moment diverted his nation's attention from cleaning up an anarchic rat's nest of terrorists in Afghanistan?

Spin it as you will; many have been duped by Mr. Bush into invading a secular, militarily castrated country whose erstwhile unsavory leader kept that area's fundamentalist ideologies firmly locked down. Great strategy, GWB; invade and create a huge power vacuum in Iraq so as to create a breeding ground for terrorists, then introduce your populace to the notion of perpetual war ... all to better the prospects for re-election. Meanwhile, its American business as usual with the wahhabist Saudis and funding for their exports of ideological hatred of secularism and all things western.

[Spliffdaddy]

*high-five* for Monique.

Glad to see that not ALL Canadians are peaceniks.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by DBursey:
I agree, Simey. That's exactly what's been happening. Kudos to you for actually checking the facts.

Canada's Actions against Terrorism since 9/11

Government of Canada introduces Anti-Terrorism Act

Overview of Canadian Anti-Terrorist Activities

Enhancing Security for Canadians

Do Americans even have a clear notion of the 'war on terror' and its objectives, misled as they have been by a dishonest President who at the most inopportune moment diverted his nation's attention from cleaning up an anarchic rat's nest of terrorists in Afghanistan?

Spin it as you will; many have been duped by Mr. Bush into invading a secular, militarily castrated country whose erstwhile unsavory leader kept that area's fundamentalist ideologies firmly locked down. Great strategy, GWB; invade and create a huge power vacuum in Iraq so as to create a breeding ground for terrorists, then introduce your populace to the notion of perpetual war ... all to better the prospects for re-election. Meanwhile, its American business as usual with the wahhabist Saudis and funding for their exports of ideological hatred of secularism and all things western.

[Resists temptation to talk about Iraq again - I think we have enough threads about that.]

I think the issue is a bit more nuanced than you suggest. The war on terror has two distinct sides to it. As I understand it, this thread would fall into a discussion of counterterrorism. Counterterrorism is essentially defensive measures designed to catch and thwart terrorists as they make (or attempt) their attacks. Counterterrorism is pretty much all the West did prior to 9/11. It's very worthy, but clearly not enough.

After 9/11, there was the realization that you also need to actively pursue antiterrorism. Antiterroism is actually going out and hunting down terrorists and their state sponsors. The international community originally went along with this after 9/11, but I'd say there has been some backsliding.

However, that's a subject for all of those other threads. On this counterterrorism issue, I think we can agree constructively that our governments can, should, and to a great extent, are, working together. That's really the only way you can do it. In this world with modern rapid communications, mass transit, easy and relatively free migration of people, and free countries with strong civil liberties laws, no one country can do it alone. Nor can any one country cut itself off and make itself safe without help from its neighbors and trading partners. I think this is generally understood.

Whether individual measures are enough is I think open to debate. I certainly don't think that the US has done enough either. In particular I'd point to the lack of screening of containers entering at ports of entry. I think we can all do better, and I think it would help for us to remind ourselves that the serious point is doing better. Constructive criticism and suggestions are good. Fingerpointing, blaming one another, recriminations, foot dragging, and excuses are less helpful.

[DBursey]

Spliffdaddy, you are an amusing fellow, and I appreciate that. The fact is that in this forum you are motivated to agitate, not to find truth. That's fine, but also serves to seriously undermine what shreds of credibility you may once have harboured.

Canada has no tradition of pacifism. You probably know that already.

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm not trying to agitate anyone. If you're offended that I think Canada is full of peaceniks...I reckon you'll have to be offended, because that's what I think. Still, I love Canada and Canadian people. There's no reason to hate people that I don't agree with.

[DBursey]

Who said anything about hatred? I'd love to sit down and do a dube with you sometime. I have a feeling I can drink and smoke you under the table, and still retain enough mental and physical faculty to play my Wednesday night hockey game at a good tempo.

What I dislike is misinformation, a.k.a. the dispensation of factual inaccuracies.

Sure, there are many in Canada who individually might fit your subjective notion of peacenik. But to refer thus to a country which has committed itself voluntarily to both world wars, the Korean war, desert storm and operation Apollo in Afghanistan, in addition to taking on most of the world's peacekeeping responsibilities during the past 60 years? No, this will not wash for anyone's definition of pacifist, or peacenik as you put it.

[Spliffdaddy]

Ya know how there are quite a few folks that imagine the US to be 'pro-war'?

I'm one of those folks that imagines other nations to be 'anti-war'.

Maybe one isn't better than the other.

But I don't want the lives and decisions made by the citizens of my country to be influenced by fear of reprisal by foreign interests.

edit: and you don't either.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
But I don't want the lives and decisions made by the citizens of my country to be influenced by fear of reprisal by foreign interests.

edit: and you don't either.

I imagine, then, that you can understand our resentment against the current US administration when it tries to use the fear of reprisal to influence the lives and decisions made by the citizens of our country.

[3gg3]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Maybe one isn't better than the other.

Props for that acknowledgment.

But I don't want the lives and decisions made by the citizens of my country to be influenced by fear of reprisal by foreign interests. [/B]

:
That would explain The Patriot Act? Or maybe that's fear of reprisal by your neighbours.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
I imagine, then, that you can understand our resentment against the current US administration when it tries to use the fear of reprisal to influence the lives and decisions made by the citizens of our country.

I absolutely DO understand your resentment - that's why I seek to avoid for myself. I'm grateful that I live in a country that vigorously defends itself against having to feel that sort of resentment.

Instead of being upset when MY country expands its 'personal space' into yours - you should be upset at whoever it was in YOUR country that allowed it to happen. Stop capitulating. Just say no. Without your cooperation the US cannot influence your lives and decisions. Short of military action, anyways. and even that has a bad track record.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I absolutely DO understand your resentment - that's why I seek to avoid for myself. I'm grateful that I live in a country that vigorously defends itself against having to feel that sort of resentment.

Instead of being upset when MY country expands its 'personal space' into yours - you should be upset at whoever it was in YOUR country that allowed it to happen. Stop capitulating. Just say no. Without your cooperation the US cannot influence your lives and decisions. Short of military action, anyways. and even that has a bad track record.

The Iraqis who are fighting an insurgency against your country's occupying army are in full agreement with you there.