[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Face Ache 

No, I pointed out that the Venezuelans were getting a referendum on this.

You said "people get the government they deserve"

I said "Hillary or Giuliani" (pointing out things aren't much better where you are).

You had a go at me (playing the man).

I retaliated.

(Right-leaning) Mod comes down on your side.

Simple really. Read the thread.

I read the thread.

You said

Originally Posted by faceache

but you've got that covered.

You played the man first.
Are you really surprised at everything that followed after you did so?


Kindly please get back on topic.

There's enough to talk about with regard to Mr. Chavez and his pot-kettle-black routing regarding Mr.Bush, or "Mr. Danger" as he likes to call him in his propaganda speeches.

Chavez to Bush,, you're a Donkey

Chavez in this video blames everything on Mr. Danger, Mr. Bush.

[pooka]

Yeah, I got caught up in the he said, she said...

Chavez is a douche. The Venezuelans that I've been hanging with (drinking a lot) are just as perplexed as I am at why anyone in the US actually thinks he's good for their country.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anecdotal drunken ramblings of intellectual lightweights. I guess some people just get boners for "radical" change.

[PaperNotes]

Someone has to be "controversial" on tv otherwise how will they earn money from talking shit?

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by TheWOAT 

I saw this coming. Chavez will probably get his way like the PRI did in Mexico, by throwing money at the lower class, and naturally they voted for the PRI for decades, as will the lower class in Venezuela will vote for Chavez until he dies. So lets see, next the elite and educated leave the country(brain drain), then political opponents start getting jailed, then Chavez will hand out those one way helicopter rides that were so popular in Argentina in the 70s and 80s. Im sure the US tries to get him killed along the way, and maybe some other moral reprehensible things... then we all die.

Only with the difference that back then the Argentinian helicopter rides were in some ways U.S. sponsored. Don't forget they were fighting those bad COMMERNIST'S!1
Add: Or see the whole U.S.-American version of "good dictatorship" with Chile / Pinochet.

PB.

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Venezuela is going to be in deep poop when their oil wealth starts running out. They, like Mexico, are just a corrupt 3rd-world country with no strategic vision or plan for improving the lives of their citizens -- just maintaining the status quo of ultra-wealthy oligarchs standing on the backs of the working-class slaves to all-powerful police government bureaucrats.

As usual, the US will be left holding the aid bags when these countries completely implode.

You mean like as usual U.S. companies will outsource to the cheaper labor in countries like Mexico? Because that's how all this kewl capitalism is working in advance for those funny countries down there.
Also Venezuela / Mexico aren't 3rd world countries.

PB.

[Cold Warrior]

Mexico and Venezuela are huge oil exporters. Yet they squander it because their governments own those enterprises and are corrupt. No wealth trickles down to the proletariat.

Also, outsourcing to poor countries is good. It provides jobs. If you're complaining about low wages -- then I'd say some wages are better than none. And since the standard of living is low, US labor wages in Mexico would be obscene and not economical.

Unless you want to nationalize all the corporations and make jobs just another form of cradle-to-grave welfare.

[Powerbook]

Spare me the total drama, just do same simple web research. This is not some fokked-up Ethiopia here.

Economy of Mexico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Economy of Venezuela - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

PB.

[Cold Warrior]

Not totally messed up like Africa, but their systems and officials are corrupt and backwards. If they don't make serious changes, they'll continue in social and economic mediocrity or slide into collapse.

[Powerbook]

Again, spare me the drama, look up the damn facts...
Quick web facts about Mexico:

- The economy of Mexico was the 14th largest in the world in 2006 with a gross domestic product (by PPP estimate) that surpassed a trillion dollars in 2004
- While the oil industry is still relevant for the government's budget, its importance in GDP and exports has steadily fallen since the 1980s. In 1980 oil exports accounted for 61.6% of total exports; by 2000 it was only 7.3%.
- Mexico was the world's fifteenth largest merchandise exporter and twelfth largest merchandise importer with a 12% annual percentage increase in overall trade. In fact, from 1991 to 2005 Mexican trade increased fivefold. Mexico is the biggest exporter and importer in Latin America; in 2005, Mexico alone exported US $213.7 billion,


Venezuela has way to go compared to Mexico, you can't seriously compare those two. Also Venezuela has much of the work from transitioning their economic monoculture in front of them, Mexico is already profiting.

PB.

[Cold Warrior]

How about some more useful facts. All yours show is that Mexico as a country has some money. Meanwhile, 40% of its people live below the poverty line and it has one of the worst per capita GDP's in the world.

As I've been saying: Mexico et al have money in total, but there corrupt and backwards systems do not facilitate upward mobility or trickle-down.

[Powerbook]

Errr, when a country as a country has "some" money, the GDP per capita reflects this.

Mexico GDP per capita $10,800 (2006).
Venezuela: GDP per capita $6,100 (2005 est.)

You want to see "one of the worst per capita GDP's in the world."??? Take my example Ethiopia: GDP per capita $900 (2005). Yes you guessed it, this is actually a third world country.

PB.

Add: This is going OT though. Sky guy wanted to complain about Venezuelan politics.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

Errr, when a country as a country has "some" money, the GDP per capita reflects this.

Mexico GDP per capita $10,800 (2006).
Venezuela: GDP per capita $6,100 (2005 est.)

For a little better perspective on this, Canada is ranked at #12 in GDP on the CIAWF list (Mexico is #13), and yet Canada's GDP per capita is $32,614.

Yes, Mexico and Venezuela both are third world countries (or perhaps we should just call them Banana Republics) despite having tremendous national wealth. CW is exactly right: the wealth of the nation doesn't reach the common citizens.

(And an aside, since this fact has been pointed out many times before, to me, it's a crying shame- it's one thing to have nations blaming the US or the west or whoever for their poverty- and the nation IS actually poor. It's another thing when dazzlingly rich nations blame the US or whoever else for their poverty, and the nation is actually swimming in money, perfect climate, and natural resources that are in reality the envy of the world. It's all just squandered on corrupt bastards. A real f'ing shame, and such a colossal waste.)

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

For a little better perspective on this, Canada is ranked at #12 in GDP on the CIAWF list (Mexico is #13), and yet Canada's GDP per capita is $32,614.

Yes, Mexico and Venezuela both are third world countries (or perhaps we should just call them Banana Republics) despite having tremendous national wealth. CW is exactly right: the wealth of the nation doesn't reach the common citizens.

(And an aside, since this fact has been pointed out many times before, to me, it's a crying shame- it's one thing to have nations blaming the US or the west or whoever for their poverty- and the nation IS actually poor. It's another thing when dazzlingly rich nations blame the US or whoever else for their poverty, and the nation is actually swimming in money, perfect climate, and natural resources that are in reality the envy of the world. It's all just squandered on corrupt bastards. A real f'ing shame, and such a colossal waste.)

[Sky Captain]

Sweet!

Spain's king tells Chávez, 'Why don't you shut up?

Link to one of many stories on this.

So Jimmeh Cawtah, how's your poster child for socialism for America looking now?

[besson3c]

Sky Captain, what does Jimmy Carter have to do with any of this? Please substantiate your claims, or else spare us with the emotional diatribe, k?

[Sky Captain]

Is this OK?

I don't have a lot of time today.
I have a mound of paperwork(international flight plans) to do.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

Is this OK?

I don't have a lot of time today.
I have a mound of paperwork(international flight plans) to do.

The only mention in this article of Carter:

But former US President Jimmy Carter endorsed the results, saying they tallied with the findings of his referendum monitoring team.

So Carter thinks the election results were legit... so what?

[Sky Captain]

I've carried Carter around the US on more than on occasion.
He made it more than clear what he likes about Chavezs socialist program/government.
(taking from capitalists/big business and funneling it directly to the "poor".)
Carter wants the US to become a socialist country.
Remember his trip to Cuba?(against the will of the Clinton administration at that)

Mr. Carter, go live in your socialist Utopia with Chavez.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sky Captain, what does Jimmy Carter have to do with any of this? Please substantiate your claims, or else spare us with the emotional diatribe, k?

His complaint was never about Chavez. It was just an indirect way of complaining about "his neighbor" Jimmy Carter and the political stances Carter takes, stances that are disagreeable to Sky Captain. Sky has posted in other threads with complaints about Jimmy Carter and the political causes he embraces.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

I've carried Carter around the US on more than on occasion.
He made it more than clear what he likes about Chavezs socialist program/government.
(taking from capitalists/big business and funneling it directly to the "poor".)
Carter wants the US to become a socialist country.
Remember his trip to Cuba?(against the will of the Clinton administration at that)

Mr. Carter, go live in your socialist Utopia with Chavez.

You'll excuse me if I don't put too much stock into your personal anecdotes... To me, just like anybody else here, you are just an anonymous person that says stuff in a message forum.

Is the US socialist because of our wealth distribution?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

His complaint was never about Chavez. It was just an indirect way of complaining about "his neighbor" Jimmy Carter and the political stances Carter takes, stances that are disagreeable to Sky Captain. Sky has posted in other threads with complaints about Jimmy Carter and the political causes he embraces.

I obviously missed these complaints... I don't see much focus to his argument as it stands now.

[PaperNotes]

YouTube - porque no te callas remix @dj devil

[Zeeb]

This seems to have become a game of which party's support of a 3rd world dictator is worse? Both "sides" seems to want to have you believe that there party has *never* stooped so low as to politically support a dictator or monarch who kicked back some type of benefit to the U.S. or their own personal political interests.

There are too many examples of Democratic and Republican leaderships embracing one dictator or another--the point really is mute.