[Simon]

So even though USB3 has been pushed back by Intel's decision not to include it in its chipsets until early 2011, the first USB3 devices and controller cards have started to appear.

The good news is that with a brand new external USB3 drive (the drive is native SATA of course) testers measured real-world 150 MB/s reads and 130 MB/s writes as well as good latency (fast i/o). That's quite amazing considering regular SATA is limited at 1.5Gbps. Or in other words it's quite possible the benchmarks measured the HDD bottleneck rather than the max throughput of the USB3 bus.

USB3 won't be outright superior to FW800 in every way, but it will be cheap, ubiquitous and very likely good enough for 99% of consumers. IOW we should see many USB3 peripherals coming out throughout the next year. Even if Apple decides to hold out, MP users should be able to buy inexpensive PCIe controllers in the next few months. Possibly even MBP owners with EC/34.

Hardmac.com: USB 3.0 Delivers Expected Performance Levels

[Eug]

It's not going to be very interesting until Apple includes the ports on its machines, and I'm not expecting it until Intel includes them, so 2011 or later.

While it's possible to see in an expansion card earlier in a Mac Pro, I don't think that many people will actually care, since eSATA is ubiquitous now. eSATA is tried and true technology, it's fast, and the equipment is cheap.

USB 3 won't be cheap and ubiquitous until Intel starts including it for free.

ie. I personally wouldn't give a damn about the absence of USB 3 on Apple hardware, if you keep your machines 3 years or less.

[gooser]

hell, i got 5 macs and none of them have usb2.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eug 

While it's possible to see in an expansion card earlier in a Mac Pro, I don't think that many people will actually care, since eSATA is ubiquitous now. eSATA is tried and true technology, it's fast, and the equipment is cheap.

Well, since only two Mac models can use expansion cards at all, most Mac users are limited to what Apple decides to put on the motherboard. And since Apple doesn't seem to find eSATA important enough to include, eSATA is a complete non-starter for almost all Mac users. USB 3.0, on the other hand, could presumably eventually be included by Apple, although it will probably be two years after everyone else does.

That's why this new Light Peak thing is encouraging — the rumors that Apple may have a hand in it hint that, assuming anything actually comes of it, there might eventually end up being a decent connectivity option that we can actually use.

[Simon]

It's my understanding that Light Peak is aimed at being a physical bus technology (read cable) over which you can run various protocols and adapt via dongles to other buses. Examples Intel gave were running FW, USB, or GigEthernet over LP. In that sense I could see LP on the Mac as a method to use USB3 peripherals if we actually don't get USB3 ports. Obviously it would still require a LP-USB dongle, but if LP is ever supposed to see broad adoption I guess that will happen anyway.

I suppose if Apple keeps USB ports on Macs USB3 is only a question of time. They were early with USB and late with USB2 so I guess we'll have to see what happens this time. However, if Apple drops USB ports (and that's a huge if) they would have to replace them with something like LP in which case they'll have to make sure we can adapt to stuff like USB. In any event, once they incorporate either USB3 or LP ports we should be able to use the plethora of USB3 devices which are bound to hit the market no later than 2011.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Well, since only two Mac models can use expansion cards at all, most Mac users are limited to what Apple decides to put on the motherboard. And since Apple doesn't seem to find eSATA important enough to include, eSATA is a complete non-starter for almost all Mac users. USB 3.0, on the other hand, could presumably eventually be included by Apple, although it will probably be two years after everyone else does.

That's why this new Light Peak thing is encouraging — the rumors that Apple may have a hand in it hint that, assuming anything actually comes of it, there might eventually end up being a decent connectivity option that we can actually use.

Light Peak seems like a long way off, and it isn't a specific protocol anyway in the USB sense. Meanwhile, USB 3 is already being implemented in the real world, albeit in a very limited fashion.

As for eSATA, my point was that on the PC side, with the ubiquitousness of eSATA for both optical drives and hard drives, there isn't really a strong incentive yet to implement USB3, so while we'll see it at the high end, I suspect most of the low end types are going to take a wait-and-see attitude... until Intel starts actively supporting it, which is 2011. I suspect Apple will do the same, which why I think the USB 3 market will be quite limited until then.

OTOH, eSATA will remain quite robust in 2009, 2010, 2011, and beyond, even without Apple's support.

ie. I think Apple should have started supporting eSATA in its desktops years ago, but doesn't really need to start support USB 3 for some time yet. The only reason Apple isn't supporting eSATA is to protect FireWire. I have to wonder though if USB 3 will kill off FireWire once and for all. FW will still have some advantages, but speed isn't one of them.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

It's my understanding that Light Peak is aimed at being a physical bus technology (read cable) over which you can run various protocols and adapt via dongles to other buses. Examples Intel gave were running FW, USB, or GigEthernet over LP.

Yes, but that means we’ll finally be able to run protocols like eSATA for which Apple doesn’t bother to provide a physical port. All Apple has to do is provide the logic, and in the case of SATA, it’s already there to drive the internal hard disk.

[Simon]

eSATA over LP would be awesome. With the MBP now properly crippled (read no EC/34) and the iMac having always been crippled (no expansion at all) LP would offer a great opportunity to attach HDDs/SSDs the right way. In fact, that's what I like most about LP. Gigabit and USB2 work fine for me the way they are (well maybe Gigabit could have a smaller plug). But if LP is what it takes to get eSATA onto the MBP I'm all for it.

However, should LP not materialize for whatever reason, it's a no-brainer for Apple to replace USB2 with USB3 ports. In the past they tried to protect FW (I see the reason for leaving out eSATA there too), but with their lackluster support of FW lately and their refusal to support S1600 and S3200 even though they've been ratified standards for ages already I'm hoping they have finally decided to give up on pushing FW. James Wiebe wrote a white paper way back in 2004 pointing out Apple's failures to properly promote FW. He summarized (twice actually, again in 2006) what Apple could do to make up for it if they were serious about promoting FW. They did none of that with the exception of replacing FW400 with FW800 ports albeit three years too late. And now we've reached the end. FW is now there almost exclusively for backwards compatibility with pro audio/video equipment.

[Eug]

I agree. Interesting though that he makes the prediction in 2006 that FW800 was basically dead with the release of the aluminum MacBook, since they removed FW completely from that machine. I'm glad I held out and bought a white MacBook refurb, since less than a year later they released the 13" MacBook Pro for less money, complete with FireWire and a backlit keyboard in the base model. I actually had predicted the same thing as Wiebe, but was glad to be wrong. However, overall, his statements are true. FW800 is becoming orphaned.

eSATA support should be implemented on all desktop consumer Macs as it would save a lot of problems for a lot of people. However, failing that, the next logical step is USB 3. As for Light Peak, it sounds great, but I'm not optimistic it will get implemented in a timely fashion for consumer Macs, if ever.

P.S. One of the big problems with eSATA is that outside of drives, almost nobody uses it. USB 3 would be great for cameras and camcorders, and would be good CompactFlash readers. I have a FW800 CompactFlash reader, and it makes a huge difference over USB 2. Considering that CF cards are 32 GB today (I have 16 GB ones myself) and as fast as laptop hard drives, USB 2 just doesn't cut it anymore even for just CF. The other problem with eSATA is bus power (which is also important for my CF reader), but maybe that will change soon. eSATA is supposedly getting bus power, but so far it's basically a technology demo more than anything as far as end users are concerned.

P.P.S. Wiebe also talks about FireWire port failure in another editorial. That is something that scares me about FW. Maybe it's the inherent design, or maybe it's the increased power specs I dunno. However, I've had three Macs and one external FW enclosure which have had FW port failures. I've never had a USB port failure, aside for the one where the USB port was physically broken. (Personally I think the USB port design seems a bit flimsy, esp. that tab. I also hate the fact that it looks the same upside down.)

[Eug]

Come to think of it, maybe I should get a USB 2 enclosure for my optical drive anyway.

Apple's support of FW of late has been asstastic, with some very serious FW issues in Snow Leopard. My FW enclosure for the optical drive doesn't work unless I hack in drivers from Leopard, even though it worked fine in 10.2 - 10.5.

I figure it might make sense to buy a USB 2 enclosure now while IDE compatible ones are still cheap and relatively easy to find. If Apple were to drop FireWire in iMacs in a few years, it's quite possible that IDE --> USB 2/3 enclosures will be rare and/or else quite expensive.

[Simon]

For a DVD drive USB makes sense. The throughput is slow compared to HDDs so USB definitely won't be a bottleneck. OTOH USB is more easily available and is showing better support lately. I think your plan makes sense, Eug. Rather get an IDE USB enclosure while they're cheap just in case.

I'm glad my external DVD burner has USB2. It will work on every Mac I use and I have zero driver issues. Also, should I need to attach many devices, hubs are ubiquitous and cheap for USB.

[Eug]

Goin' shoppin' today.

P.S. If it were just a standard drive, I wouldn't bother because I could just pick up a new drive in a few years when FW is end-of-life'd, but this drive is not only region free but also automatically sets DVD+R to the DVD-ROM flag. My next optical drive will be Blu-ray, but unfortunately, BR drives are apparently very hard to make region free for DVD and bit-set for DVD.

[CharlesS]

One thing that FireWire does very well that USB still can’t do at present (could this be done with eSATA? I don’t know) is target disk mode, which remains a really handy troubleshooting tool.

[Simon]

Excellent point. TDM for USB is still MIA.

It's my understanding that Apple would have to actually make that effort (chipset support in firmware). However I don't know if some subtlety in the USB protocol could prevent it from working the way it did with FW.

[CharlesS]

Well, the differing A and B connectors would be one problem. You’d need a special A-to-A cable — the problem with this is that connecting two computers with an A-to-A cable is supposed to blow out the USB ports on both machines. There is a reason after all for the A and B distinction, it seems. eSATA does have the same connection type on each end, and since SATA is a non-retarded protocol, unlike USB, it might be possible there. I do know that Apple used to do TDM with SCSI way back in the day. Of course, this is all moot since Apple, in their infinite wisdom, seem to think that an SD card slot, of all things, is more important than an eSATA port.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

One thing that FireWire does very well that USB still can’t do at present (could this be done with eSATA? I don’t know) is target disk mode, which remains a really handy troubleshooting tool.

Target mode is cool. However, it's a lot less important now that Intel Macs can boot off USB 2.

I find I need target disk mode very infrequently, except in rare cases like when a laptop is dying and you want to pull stuff off the hard drive. However, given that hard drives are user serviceable parts now, it's not that big of a deal to just remove the hard drive and put in a $15 USB2 enclosure.

I have no use for SD, but to be honest, I agree with Apple's decision to put one in consumer Macs (well, the laptops anyway), given the popularity of SD these days. I do disagree with their decision to leave eSATA out though.

[mduell]

I don't expect Apple to do well with the USB3 rollout. Eventually it will be in all Macs since it's backward compatible, but the rollout will be slow, confusing, and subdued due to LightPeak hype.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, given that hard drives are user serviceable parts now

Not in all models. (iMac, Mac mini)

I have no use for SD, but to be honest, I agree with Apple's decision to put one in consumer Macs (well, the laptops anyway)

They didn’t put it in the consumer Macs. Only the MacBook Pro has an SD slot. It makes no sense.

[olePigeon]

Apple may skip USB3 all together and go with LightPeak.

[olePigeon]

I was going to complain about the SD Card slot, but then I realized I've never, ever used a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot. It seems to be a very small minority of people who need it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

They didn’t put it in the consumer Macs. Only the MacBook Pro has an SD slot. It makes no sense.

I was thinking specifically of the iMacs. But yeah, it's dumb they have it in the Pros and not the unibody plastic.

A CF slot would be useful in the MB Pros, and would fit, but it would not look nice... and we all know Steve's views on aesthetics.

[Arty50]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Apple may skip USB3 all together and go with LightPeak.

No, they'll include it eventually. Once Intel chipsets start rolling out with support for it, Apple will start using it. It's backwards compatible, so it's a no brainer.

Also, why is everyone saying we won't see LightPeak for a while? Intel has already stated we'll start seeing systems with it next year. One could argue they're delaying USB 3 in order to give LightPeak some traction in the marketplace.

[Simon]

Light Peak was merely a tech demo. Although it's an impressive solution, they still have a lot of stuff to figure out. Bus power is just one example.

USB3 OTOH is a ratified protocol that's shipping now. Both in terms of controllers and in terms of peripheral devices. The only thing holding USB3 back is Intel not including it with their chipsets. But that's really only a problem for notebook users without EC/34 since cheap PCIe cards are already available and EC/34 adapters will be out shortly. IOW it's only a problem for us Mac users.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I was going to complain about the SD Card slot, but then I realized I've never, ever used a PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot. It seems to be a very small minority of people who need it.

That's probably correct. Just as it's also correct to assume that only a minority of pro users rely on SD on their new MBPs. The difference is that EC/34 allowed for SD card readers, but SD card readers don't also act as EC/34 slots. Apple removed a versatile technology and replaced it with a limited technology. To make matters worse they put a consumer standard slot on a pro notebook (the iMac's a consumer desktop so I'd consider SD suitable there). They could have instead offered an add-on SD adapter for the EC/34 slot and achieved just the same w/o crippling the otherwise great MBP.

[CharlesS]

The SD card slot would have made sense if they were planning to eliminate the optical drive down the road and start distributing software on SD cards, which was something I was curious about before, but how that they’ve updated the MacBook and haven’t included the SD slot, that theory’s shot down, and I honestly can’t think of any reason for the SD slot on the pro laptops.

It’s true — they could have had an SD ExpressCard that was flush with the outer casing (there seem to be plenty of them out there) lodged in the ExpressCard slot by default, and those who didn’t want the ExpressCard slot wouldn’t know the difference.

[Arty50]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Light Peak was merely a tech demo. Although it's an impressive solution, they still have a lot of stuff to figure out. Bus power is just one example.

Intel has already stated hardware is coming in 2010.
Light Peak Technology

Intel usually sticks to its roadmaps pretty well. Sometimes things get delayed, but never for very long. Say what you will about the company, but they generally do a very good job pushing stuff out the door.

[Simon]

Nothing dramatic, but LaCie is quite well known in Apple land.

LaCie announces USB3 drives, dual-drive RAIDs

[Simon]

And another one, but this time for 2.5" drives. With USB3 this looks ideal for SSDs (assuming we will continue to not have eSATA on most Macs). Of course we still need the actual USB3 port on a Mac.



Brando intros USB 3.0 hard drive enclosures | Electronista

[Simon]

First USB3 memory sticks have arrived. 97MB/s reads (peak).



Hardmac.com | After the external disks, the USB 3.0 keys arrive

[Simon]

Here's another nice idea. A brand new SSD with SATA. Nothing special there. But it also comes with an on-board bridge and a USB3 port. So it can be used both as an internal SSD as well as an external USB3 disk w/o any extra case or adapters.



Hardmac.com : A New SSD with Interesting Features

[Simon]

HP has started shipping one of the first notebooks with USB3. It's a Core i5/i7 15" model. Since Intel hasn't included a USB3 controller in their mobile chipsets HP has opted to add a dedicated controller themselves. Just like Apple does for FW800 on the MBP.

HP ships one of the first USB 3.0 PCs | Electronista

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Could it look any less like a MBP?

[Simon]

Well, those vents definitely make it much uglier than the MBP.

But of course that's entirely irrelevant to USB3 adoption.

[Simon]

Although if you consider that HP is calling the system "envy" I'd say it's actually quite a compliment to Apple.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Well, those vents definitely make it much uglier than the MBP.

But of course that's entirely irrelevant to USB3 adoption.

Unless each vent is actually a USB port

But seriously… I'm very much looking forward to USB 3.0. I'm still getting all the parts together for my Core i7 box and have my eye on the ASUS U3S6 card.

[Simon]

That's a great card.

Shame you can't put something like that in an iMac.

[EndlessMac]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Well, those vents definitely make it much uglier than the MBP.

That's a good way to burn your arm too, but now we are just getting off topic...

[Simon]

DigiTimes thinks Apple has started sampling USB3 device controllers

Originally Posted by DigiTimes

Genesys Logic has begun sampling USB 3.0 device controllers for a client and sources within the industry believe the client is Apple. However, Genesys has denied the sources' claim that it is sampling a product for Apple.
Apple does source components from Taiwan design houses. For example, Novatek Microelectronics is supplies LCD driver ICs for the Apple tablet PC, the sources added.

[olePigeon]

Maybe Apple will just skip USB 3 and go directly to LightPeak.

[Simon]

And run what across it? USB3 maybe?

[Simon]

Belkin launches first USB 3.0 devices | Electronista





So far no mention of Mac support though.

[Simon]

Even though Intel hasn't found the courage to start releasing USB3-enabled chipsets, others have gladly jumped in. Several manufacturers are adding USB3 controller chips to their boards already.



NEC has apparently already sold 2 million controllers to board manufacturers since Sep. Demand is rising sharply and they're increasing production levels to meet 2 million units per month by April. Looks like USB3 is coming quickly with or without Intel.

[Simon]

Here's a nice new USB3 gadget.

OCZ has launched a sleek external SSD that comes only with a USB3 plug. Plug in and you're good to go. Available capacities are 64GB, 128GB, and 256GB. Read and write performance is north of 200 MB/s.



OCZ Enyo USB 3.0 Portable Solid State Drive OCZ Technology

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

And run what across it? USB3 maybe?

USB 3, Firewire, and eSATA - with the appropriate converter boxes?

Intel just demoed a laptop running LightPeak, indicating that the chipsets have been shrunk down enough for portable use.

Shipping by the end of the year (supposedly).

I don't think we'll even see a dedicated USB 3 port on Macs, ever.

[Simon]

The point is we need OS X support for the USB3 protocol. LP is not a replacement for USB3. Even if Macs go all-LP, we'll still need support for the protocol in order to connect our USB3 peripherals. Note that those ship today.

If we indeed some day get LP and it lives up to the hype (plus stuff like bus power, royalties, etc. work out) we'll run USB3 peripherals over that. Nobody (except for dongle manufacturers ) will care about the physical bus as long as OS X supports the protocol required to use USB3 peripherals at full speed.

[Good reminder though. /heads over to LP thread]

[Simon]

Let's assume Macs will indeed get LP soon. Extrapolating from Apple's current design choices...

Tons of card readers exist for USB, yet Apple builds an SD reader into the MBP.
Apple sells a USB Ethernet adapter, yet they still build Ethernet into the MBP.

So should I be worried Apple won't build USB3 into the MBP if we get LP? Nope.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Apple sells a USB Ethernet adapter, yet they still build Ethernet into the MBP.

Ethernet has been Gigabit for almost ten years.

[Simon]

The adapter's only FastEthernet?

Well that sucks. Granted Gigabit speeds can't be delivered by USB2, but FastEthernet means a factor 2 to 3 slower than what USB2 could do would there be a Gigabit controller in that adapter.

[Spheric Harlot]

Honestly, I don't know what they're throwing in there.

But since as you say USB 2.0 tends to max out around 300 MBit averages, IIRC, that's about a third of what Ethernet can do.

[Simon]

Anyway, does anybody more familiar with the PC world know if those combo USB/eSATA ports will also be available on USB3 systems?

Obviously Apple has so far not seen the light there, but I haven't quite lost faith yet.