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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > Dual Dual-core "quad" Power Mac G5 features

Dual Dual-core "quad" Power Mac G5 features (Page 2)
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tooki  (op)
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Oct 20, 2005, 10:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by zubro
1. tooki, I agree regarding the RAM, who would have ECC and non ECC RAM togrther in his machine?
2. This does not make sense to me. That is why we should be able to order the machines without RAM at all (I think). How smart is it to "junk" RAM? Produce it for nothing? I am actually thinking about the environment there, it makes me sad that kind of thing.

3. And about the Dual layers, doing DVDs I am so glad those exist! So damn cheaper than having to put your projects to DLT!
And when you say "it is not wide spread yet", hello? I am a Pro, I want the LATEST tech in my machine, I don t want to buy external hardware from LaCie every single time I want to do something!
4. And sorry but wrong again, the media is not "overpriced", what do you compare it to? A DLT?
5. And wrong again on the "hard to get" thing. I buy all my discs on the net or I can find any format I need down town...
To me, there IS a rush. It took Apple far to long to catch up on the Windows based machines.
6. We are pros, we have poor graphics (what is the meaning of imagecore?) and no on the edge technology.
Damn you got to LOVE the OS!
1. I'm quite certain you can't mix ECC and non-ECC RAM.
2. While I'd like to see no-RAM configurations available, it doesn't make business sense, and it could seriously make it harder for Apple to troubleshoot, since many such buyers would buy junky RAM. This way, Apple can have you use only Apple RAM as a troubleshooting step. (And it's a good one!)
3. DVD-R DL is brand new, and few drives support it, and I have never seen the media for sale yet at all.
4. DVD+R DL media is expensive ($5+ per disc retail), far higher than the cost of two $0.25 DVD+/-R discs that hold the same information. Few users are comparing it to DLT. For you, it may be cheaper, but the per-MB cost of dual layer discs is far higher than that of single layer discs.
5. DL discs are only beginning to be available in retail, whereas single layer discs have been widely available for years.
6. Core Image is just beginning to make it into pro apps. It offloads image transforms onto the GPU to make them immediate.

tooki
( Last edited by tooki; Oct 20, 2005 at 10:46 AM. )
     
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Oct 20, 2005, 11:05 AM
 
1. I second that.
3. + 4. Yes, also true here in Europe. DL media are extremely expensive and not very popular.
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Oct 20, 2005, 11:20 AM
 
Darn, just bought a DP 2.0 a few months ago. Now for the same price I can get PCIe slots and 8 RAM slots. I'll probably never use them though so I'm not too bothered.

What would irk me the most is if the annoying chirping/beeping PSU problems are fixed in this revision.

That's really my only complaint with my PowerMac.
     
zubro
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Oct 20, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
1. I'm quite certain you can't mix ECC and non-ECC RAM.
2. While I'd like to see no-RAM configurations available, it doesn't make business sense, and it could seriously make it harder for Apple to troubleshoot, since many such buyers would buy junky RAM. This way, Apple can have you use only Apple RAM as a troubleshooting step. (And it's a good one!)
3. DVD-R DL is brand new, and few drives support it, and I have never seen the media for sale yet at all.
4. DVD+R DL media is expensive ($5+ per disc retail), far higher than the cost of two $0.25 DVD+/-R discs that hold the same information. Few users are comparing it to DLT. For you, it may be cheaper, but the per-MB cost of dual layer discs is far higher than that of single layer discs.
5. DL discs are only beginning to be available in retail, whereas single layer discs have been widely available for years.
6. Core Image is just beginning to make it into pro apps. It offloads image transforms onto the GPU to make them immediate.

tooki
1. do not know about that.
2. you are right.
3. well I find it quite easy to find on the net + shops in DK.
4. Do you read my posts? I DO DVDs, in my job, there is only DLT that do for DVD9. So, it is the only thing I can compare DVD9 + or - R to. For DLT a player only cost ± USD1.000 and a tape is ± USD100, and you need a SCSI card on top of it! Now, is a burner + discs cheaper?
5. Not relevant in my case.
6. Image core is a mature technology. And I know how it works beautifully with Motion!
     
tooki  (op)
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Oct 20, 2005, 03:10 PM
 
Jeez, dude, the world doesn't revolve around you.

3. DVD+R DL is more or less easy to find now. DVD-R DL on the other hand is, plain and simply, not widely available. It JUST came on the market (DVD-R DL was announced less than 6 months ago!), and most stores have NOT started carrying it yet. I assume you are confusing DVD+R DL (which is not toooo hard to find) with DVD-R DL, which is effectively impossible to find right now.

4. No, I don't read every one of your posts all over the forums. There are thousands of members here, and I can't read and remember every of the thousands of threads, never mind remember what each person said. You expect me to remember your occupation? In THIS thread, I already acknowledged that FOR YOU (but NOT for most people!!), DVD+R DL might be cheaper. Most people are using recordable DVDs to burn home movies and data, and either one of those can be done for far cheaper onto single-layer media.

I stand by my assertion that double-layer blank DVD media is FAR more expensive than standard single layer, and anyone can verify that by checking prices online. Double-layer media costs at least six times as much, for less than double the capacity. The per-MB price is, therefore, far higher.

5. Well, it is relevant to your assertion that it's commonplace -- it's only beginning to be. Until recently, stores didn't carry DL media. What good is the DL drive if there's no media for you to write on?!?

6. It's "Core Image", not "Image Core". Motion uses the same fundamental technology as "Core Video", but Motion does NOT use Core Video itself, since Motion can run in Panther, while Core Video is new to Tiger only. It's hardly mature, it's recent. I repeat: it's just beginning to be used in pro apps. So far, all the pro apps have brought along all their imaging technology, not used that provided by the OS. Aperture will be the first major application to use Core Image.

tooki
     
Bwa
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Oct 20, 2005, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by turk.o
awesome, i was looking for that, but couldn't find it anywhere on the apple site. do you have a link?
Apple store -> Displays -> the last item in the display category (when I checked there were 21 items, and this was #21).
     
the macimum
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Oct 20, 2005, 07:27 PM
 
16GB of ram. Wow.

You can say that again!
     
Lateralus
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Oct 20, 2005, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by the macimum
16GB of ram. Wow.

You can say that again!
As Tooki pointed out, all of the 8-slot G5s supported 16GBs of RAM.
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the macimum
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Oct 20, 2005, 07:38 PM
 
That's really hot, but you see, I just don't think it's worth it if Apple is going to come out with the Intel-Mac (Hopefully) sometime next year, unless, of course, you don't like intel, which is actually a pretty big percent of Mac users.
     
Lateralus
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Oct 20, 2005, 07:41 PM
 
The first Intel Macs will hit the channel next year. Power Macs, however, aren't going Intel until 2007.

...hopefully later.
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Oct 20, 2005, 07:51 PM
 
This looks to be one of the best upgrades that I have seen in a long time. It is nice to see some real progress in the chip department, as of such there has been a very slow upgrade path. I did not see any real reason to upgrade till now. I am also looking at the new software that has just come out from Apple also, Aperture. The new G5s and this new software are up untill now the only real reason to upgrade. That looks like a real pair to me.

I guess that means get back to work as that is one heck of a price tag.

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Oct 20, 2005, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus
The first Intel Macs will hit the channel next year. Power Macs, however, aren't going Intel until 2007.

...hopefully later.
I agree ... hopefully later is right.

I for one will have to buy lots of software and I am sure that none of use are looking forward to that day. I realy do not have faith in any of the chip makers right now as IBM has been slow in uping clock speed and now Intel is getting away from clock speed also, as it is not the true indicator of the speed of the comptuer anyway.

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Oct 20, 2005, 08:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by the macimum
That's really hot, but you see, I just don't think it's worth it if Apple is going to come out with the Intel-Mac (Hopefully) sometime next year, unless, of course, you don't like intel, which is actually a pretty big percent of Mac users.
That's simply not relevant. These computers will be useful for years to come. Apple will continue to release OS X for BOTH platforms years after 2007. Developers will continue to crank out "fat" binaries.

For the time most people own a computer, the transition is irrelevant.
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bonkers
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Oct 20, 2005, 08:06 PM
 
I was on the phone with Apple for 1.5 hours today regarding the non-existent nvidia 7800 (passed around & escalated the issue as much as possible).

Nobody knows anything about the 7800! As far as everyone I spoke to is concerned, the 7800 does not exist & it is unknown as to when it will appear.

All I can say is wow, that is unbelievably sucky!
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jamil5454
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Oct 20, 2005, 09:42 PM
 
It just came out yesterday. 99.9% of the employees at Apple have no clue what's being developed and certainly have no clue on what's going to be announced. Thus, they've had less than 36 hours to get the low-down on everything that's been announced. Give it a couple more days for everyone to be informed and then try calling.
     
bonkers
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Oct 20, 2005, 09:56 PM
 
jamil - although i agree with your comment, i am still surprised. Usually Apple will allow you to place an order, even if a product will NOT be ready for another couple of months. It isn't even an option to do so with the 7800!
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turk.o
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Oct 20, 2005, 10:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by bonkers
jamil - although i agree with your comment, i am still surprised. Usually Apple will allow you to place an order, even if a product will NOT be ready for another couple of months. It isn't even an option to do so with the 7800!

yes, you are right on about that, this is totally bizarre behavior, and it is becoming frustrating as it is the only thing delaying my quad purchase. when i talked to a rep today who claimed to know nothing, i said "How is that? I mean, you guys make these computers, right? Shouldn't you know simple things like this?" he laughed, but that didn't help my situation.

anyway, if any gets some real news about this, it would be appreciated.
     
bonkers
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Oct 20, 2005, 10:27 PM
 
:-)

to the person who claimed to know nothing, I said "I'm sure somebody does!"...

to be continued
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Oct 21, 2005, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by turk.o
yes, you are right on about that, this is totally bizarre behavior, and it is becoming frustrating as it is the only thing delaying my quad purchase. when i talked to a rep today who claimed to know nothing, i said "How is that? I mean, you guys make these computers, right? Shouldn't you know simple things like this?" he laughed, but that didn't help my situation.

anyway, if any gets some real news about this, it would be appreciated.
I read somewhere (either here or on another forum) that the 7800 cards were delayed for a few weeks. You won't be able to configure the 7800 card until then. I think the timeframe given was 3-4 weeks before you could order the 7800 card. Who knows how long it'll be after that before you actually get the card.
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the macimum
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Oct 21, 2005, 03:56 PM
 
That's simply not relevant. These computers will be useful for years to come. Apple will continue to release OS X for BOTH platforms years after 2007. Developers will continue to crank out "fat" binaries.
I was thinking about that, and I do agree, because the speeds of the PowerMac Quad G5 is probably going to be one of the faster macs for years to come.

I am kind of thinking of getting it.
     
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Oct 21, 2005, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by PBG4 User
I read somewhere (either here or on another forum) that the 7800 cards were delayed for a few weeks. You won't be able to configure the 7800 card until then. I think the timeframe given was 3-4 weeks before you could order the 7800 card. Who knows how long it'll be after that before you actually get the card.
This sounds like a typical rumour... no link?
     
bonkers
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Oct 21, 2005, 05:14 PM
 
To add to the confusion, this is from the ADC newsletter I just received...
--begin snip--
Apple Unveils New Power Mac G5 Desktop Line
Now with dual-core processors and workstation graphics

Apple recently announced its new Power Mac G5 desktop line, featuring the Power Mac G5 Quad. With two 2.5 GHz dual-core PowerPC G5 processors, the Power Mac G5 Quad delivers breakthrough performance on applications used by creative professionals and scientists. In addition, all Power Mac G5 models now feature dual-core processors, a new PCI Express architecture, and higher performance graphics options.

The new Power Mac G5 comes standard with either the NVIDIA GeForce 6600 LE or the NVIDIA GeForce 6660 and both provide support for dual-displays and Apple's 30-inch Cinema HD Display. The build-to-order graphics option, Quadro FX 4500, can drive up to two 30-inch Apple Cinema HD Displays and includes a stereo 3D port to connect goggles for stereo-in-a-window applications.
--end snip--

Where is the 7800?
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olePigeon
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Oct 21, 2005, 08:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
So, the new dual-core G5 Power Macs have some interesting new features:
- two gigabit ethernet ports with jumbo frame support
- support for ECC (error-correcting) RAM.

This is server hardware, plain and simple. Sweet! The only Apple machines to use ECC RAM until this are the Apple Network Server 500 and 700 machines, which ran AIX, not Mac OS.

tooki
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Oct 21, 2005, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by zubro
What about the BTO RAM.
Why do they sell it with 512MB 533 DDR2 Non ECC SDRAM- 2x256.
The non EEC is a mistake to me but anyway, any RAM at all is a mistake!
2x256 for a 2.5GHz Quad-core PowerPC G5?
Who wants to pay 30-70% more to get their ECC RAM from Apple? Not me.

Repace 2x256MB with 2x512MB ECC at Apple.com: $200
Add 2x512MB ECC from Crucial.com: $152

Repace 2x256MB with 2x1GB ECC at Apple.com: $700
Add 2x1GB ECC from Crucial.com: $414

Originally Posted by bonkers
To add to the confusion, this is from the ADC newsletter I just received...
--begin snip--
<snip>
--end snip--

Where is the 7800?
All over http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html
     
bonkers
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Oct 21, 2005, 11:36 PM
 
What I meant was, where is the mention of the 7800 in the ADC newsletter? I know it is on apple's website, but you can't order it through the applestore & now the latest newsletter has it eliminated as an option.

a thread on apple.com's discussion forums says 7800 availability will be mid Nov.

--begin speculation here--
What I find interesting is why isn't it an option at the store. I mean if they know there is a bug/quantity issue why don't they do like they have in the past and let you order one, but say that it won't be available for 2-3 months? The lack of an option to purchase with nobody knowing anything may signal a more serious problem...
--end speculation--
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tooki  (op)
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Oct 23, 2005, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon
And the XServe.
You shoulda read the whole thread before replying, somebody already said this and I already responded.

tooki
     
bentoon
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Oct 26, 2005, 10:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
Who wants to pay 30-70% more to get their ECC RAM from Apple? Not me.

Repace 2x256MB with 2x512MB ECC at Apple.com: $200
Add 2x512MB ECC from Crucial.com: $152

Repace 2x256MB with 2x1GB ECC at Apple.com: $700
Add 2x1GB ECC from Crucial.com: $414



All over http://www.apple.com/powermac/graphics.html

Crucial is listing Non ECC Ram at the same price as Apple?

http://www.crucial.com/store/listpar...2%29&submit=Go

--------------------------------EDIT:---------------------------------------
Whoops,
minus the 512 card and small discount - I'm Mathmatic



.
( Last edited by bentoon; Oct 26, 2005 at 11:24 PM. )
     
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Oct 27, 2005, 07:40 AM
 
I ordered a Quad with 1GB of ECC RAM, but I know I'll want to add more later. Will it be a problem if I don't add ECC RAM?
     
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Oct 27, 2005, 07:43 AM
 
Yes, it will be a problem. I have not seen a computer to date that allows you to mix ECC RAM and non-ECC RAM. So you have to buy the more expensive (but more reliable) ECC RAM.
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Oct 27, 2005, 09:58 AM
 
Honestly tho, for the average user, (meaning, well, darn near everyone) do you really need ECC? I don't know if I need it, which I think makes me fall into the "probably doesn't need it" category. I'm guessing if I know the importance of it, I need it for whatever task I am running.
Ok, so what difference would the average user see when using it? I know it corrects single bit and reports multi-bit errors in memory, but what does this mean in simple english? What is an example or a problem you would have if you didn't have ecc to correct an error?
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Oct 27, 2005, 10:03 AM
 
It means your machine runs more reliably, because it can detect and in some cases correct problems with your RAM. It is common in the workstation and server world. The thing is that as with all safety precautions, you don't really `see' a difference. It's just like a UPS or airbags: you see it when you need it.

KeyLimePi went for ECC and now he gotta stick with it (unless he wants to take out his ECC RAM and replace it with normal RAM).
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mduell
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Oct 27, 2005, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by KeyLimePi
I ordered a Quad with 1GB of ECC RAM, but I know I'll want to add more later. Will it be a problem if I don't add ECC RAM?
Yes, now you're "locked in" to buying the more reliable, but slower and more expensive ECC RAM (unless you want to take your ECC RAM out and sell it).
I think Apple needs to make the advantages and disadvantages of ECC RAM more obvious.
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 27, 2005, 11:06 AM
 
The price difference should be obvious enough to deter people from putting ECC RAM into their machines if they don't know what it is.
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mduell
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Oct 27, 2005, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
The price difference should be obvious enough to deter people from putting ECC RAM into their machines if they don't know what it is.
OTOH, many people associate more expensive = better.
     
tooki  (op)
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Oct 27, 2005, 12:29 PM
 
Well, in this case, for once, they're right! ECC is better!

tooki
     
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Oct 27, 2005, 12:50 PM
 
I agree, it is. Similar to the Raptor being a very speedy harddrive. But people shouldn't buy it for bragging rights
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Oct 27, 2005, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
...but slower and more expensive ECC RAM ...
Slower? I hadn't heard that. To be honest, I hadn't given much thought to the issue of ECC RAM. At the time I was more disappointed that the 7800GT isn't yet available.

Since I was already spending nearly $4k on a machine, I wasn't going to quibble over a $100 difference on RAM. To me ECC is one of those things that separates a PC from a 'workstation.' I hope that, in the long run, it's better but as OC said, if it does its job, I'll never really know.
     
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Oct 27, 2005, 01:45 PM
 
Just to comment on the faster/slower argument. ECC RAM is not slower than a regular (non-ECC) RAM module running at the same speed. However, workstations usually do not use bleeding edge technology (for a reason), so you cannot buy ECC RAM that runs at speeds which (sometimes) haven't even been officially specified, but are nevertheless used on some pc motherboards. Also you usually do not `overclock' ECC RAM.
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mduell
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Oct 27, 2005, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by KeyLimePi
Slower? I hadn't heard that. To be honest, I hadn't given much thought to the issue of ECC RAM. At the time I was more disappointed that the 7800GT isn't yet available.

Since I was already spending nearly $4k on a machine, I wasn't going to quibble over a $100 difference on RAM. To me ECC is one of those things that separates a PC from a 'workstation.' I hope that, in the long run, it's better but as OC said, if it does its job, I'll never really know.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
Just to comment on the faster/slower argument. ECC RAM is not slower than a regular (non-ECC) RAM module running at the same speed. However, workstations usually do not use bleeding edge technology (for a reason), so you cannot buy ECC RAM that runs at speeds which (sometimes) haven't even been officially specified, but are nevertheless used on some pc motherboards. Also you usually do not `overclock' ECC RAM.
I'm not talking about overclocking, or bleeding edge.
ECC RAM is generally registered, which adds a 1 cycle latency delay.
I think ECC is overrated; single-bit errors are very rare, and generally harmless. It has its applications (giant, long simulations were a single bit error is catastrophic), but for the vast majority of PowerMac owners it's a pointless expense.
     
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Oct 27, 2005, 04:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I'm not talking about overclocking, or bleeding edge.
ECC RAM is generally registered, which adds a 1 cycle latency delay.
The same is true for registered non-ECC RAM. The actual performance loss (which is hardly measurable, usually RAM chips with faster timing will give you a low single-digit performance gain, typically 1-3 %). However, there is ECC RAM which has the same timing as regular non-ECC RAM.
Originally Posted by mduell
I think ECC is overrated; single-bit errors are very rare, and generally harmless. It has its applications (giant, long simulations were a single bit error is catastrophic), but for the vast majority of PowerMac owners it's a pointless expense.
It's not overrated nor is it mandatory. If you don't see a point buying ECC RAM, then don't. But memory is cheap and considering it's basically just one additional memory chip, it's not that much more expensive to produce, but increases reliability.
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mduell
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Oct 27, 2005, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
It's not overrated nor is it mandatory. If you don't see a point buying ECC RAM, then don't. But memory is cheap and considering it's basically just one additional memory chip, it's not that much more expensive to produce, but increases reliability.
I don't, I won't, and I'm advising others on the reasons to do the same.
It is only one extra chip, but it's not 12.5% more expensive; it's about 50% more expensive (comparing 1GB PC2-4200 from Crucial).
Is the difference between a bit error every 10 years and every 100 years meaningful?
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 27, 2005, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
I don't, I won't, and I'm advising others on the reasons to do the same.
It is only one extra chip, but it's not 12.5% more expensive; it's about 50% more expensive (comparing 1GB PC2-4200 from Crucial).
Is the difference between a bit error every 10 years and every 100 years meaningful?
I know that the price currently does not scale with the number of chips. I guess it would be if ECC were popular.

I've had a handful of RAM modules failing, one of them was soldered onto the mainboard of my iBook. Do a search in the forums here and you'll see that we can attribute quite a few crashes to faulty memory. With ECC you know when your RAM fails and you also when that it fails.
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cdetdi
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Oct 27, 2005, 05:55 PM
 
With ECC you know when your RAM fails and you also when that it fails.
Repetitive, or were you trying to make another point?
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Oct 27, 2005, 06:24 PM
 
I meant to say that you know that it fails and when it fails. Sorry, but it's kinda late already

Faulty RAM can cause seemingly random crashes, with ECC RAM, you can check if you have problems with it. Also, your machine will probably not crash in the first place
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rslifka
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Oct 28, 2005, 03:21 PM
 
ECC RAM itself has some sort of built in testing feature? Does it mean it's faster to test or something?

Testing my 2GB on the iMac takes foooreevvverrrr but in the end it found errors

Rob
     
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Oct 28, 2005, 03:22 PM
 
- double post -
     
OreoCookie
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Oct 28, 2005, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by rslifka
ECC RAM itself has some sort of built in testing feature? Does it mean it's faster to test or something?

Testing my 2GB on the iMac takes foooreevvverrrr but in the end it found errors

Rob
Yes, it has a `testing feature'. It can not only test data for errors, but also correct errors (to a certain degree). This may get a bit technical, but stick with me for a second. I'll simplify it a bit.

In every byte, there are 8 bits. So lots of RAM modules have 8 chips on them (not all though), 1 per bit. ECC RAM modules have 9 memory chips (and a smaller chip), 8 chips for 8 bits and 1 chip for the checksum (just think of it this way: it recognizes if there is an odd or even number of 1s for instance, the real algorithm is more sophisticated, though). The electronics is designed in such a way that you can correct single-bit errors and detect all two-bit errors.

However ECC RAM will not speed up RAM tests
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heavyboots
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Oct 28, 2005, 07:52 PM
 
Actually, isn't ECC RAM slightly slower as a result? In any case, obviously worth it if you're using it in a server capacity. Slightly less obvious if it's worth it in a workstation.

As a general rule, my setup procedure for any Mac starts with unboxing it and running the Hardware Test once in stock config. Then I pop in the new RAM, use the secret control-L to put the Hardware Test in Looping mode and then let it run 5 or 6 cycles with all the RAM on board. If it can complete at least five+ cycles without errors, you can be reasonably certain your RAM is good.

Of course, that is not to say it can't go bad down the road. If your machine starts KP'ing and fsck and Disk Utility don't help, it may a good time to do 3 or 4 more Hardware Test loops. So far I've only had one RAM chip go bad on me after extended usage (versus arriving bad--that happens about twice a year), but it has happened so it's always a possibility to check...

BTW, a Dual Core 2.3ghz/NVidia 6600/1.5gb RAM machine takes almost exactly an hour to run one loop. (Like an hour and 3 minutes, I believe.)
     
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Oct 28, 2005, 08:32 PM
 
All ECC ram I've used in x86 duals has been slower due to error checking.
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Oct 28, 2005, 08:42 PM
 
a little detour from the ECC/non-ECC RAM discussion...

does anyone why it is necessary for Apple to bundle airport and bluetooth together, instead of separately? I really don't need an airport card for a G5 tower, but I do need bluetooth. Are they included on a single module or something?
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