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I am Joe.
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vmarks
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:13 AM
 
http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk.../i-am-joe.html

http://jammiewearingfool.blogspot.co.../i-am-joe.html



I am Joe.

I am Joe because I handle my own business and don't wait for the government to take care of all my needs.

I am Joe because hard work and sacrifice mean more to me than being on the government dole.

I removed all old polybutylene plumbing from my home and replaced it with new pipe with brass fittings by myself over the course of a few weekends, while working a regular job on the weekdays.

I hung new drywall on the walls and ceilings where I had to cut old out to remove the plumbing.

I did all of that without being licensed by a state agency.

I change my own oil, clutches, brakes.

I've worked for businesses, large and small. I've started my own small business.

Self-reliance is important to me.

I am Joe.



Why are you Joe? Go ahead and post yours.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:29 AM
 
Did you do all that?

greg
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Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:34 AM
 
The disconnect isn't that people don't believe in Joe, the disconnect is where Joe thinks that he will be worse off under Obama's tax plan. Joe simply doesn't understand the concept of marginal tax rates, that's all. We could all be Joe (literally, exactly in his place) and still vote in our own best interests for Obama.
     
BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The disconnect isn't that people don't believe in Joe, the disconnect is where Joe thinks that he will be worse off under Obama's tax plan. Joe simply doesn't understand the concept of marginal tax rates, that's all. We could all be Joe (literally, exactly in his place) and still vote in our own best interests for Obama.
My sense is that he just got caught fibbing a little bit. That business he works for which he claims to be thinking about buying, doesn't really make over the amount that would see a tax increase. He pulled the number from his plumber's crack that just happened to be right above the level for the marginal tax increase.
     
Ghoser777
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:43 AM
 
That's great that you did that... but I still wouldn't hire you to do my plumbing. I've already been screwed over enough in my gut-rehabed condo because of contractors that aren't state licensed.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Did you do all that?

greg
http://gallery.me.com/victormarks#10...lack&view=grid

is the gallery I just uploaded for you to see.

I'm not in any of the photos, because I'm either working, or taking a few snaps to document it. I usually don't take photos, but I do when it seems mildly interesting as a guide or encouragement to folks who haven't attempted it before.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ghoser777 View Post
That's great that you did that... but I still wouldn't hire you to do my plumbing. I've already been screwed over enough in my gut-rehabed condo because of contractors that aren't state licensed.
I'm not asking you or anyone else to hire me to do plumbing. I'm doing it for myself because I want to save the money of paying someone else, and I can do it up to code or better. Shoot, most licensed plumbers that plumb new houses do crazy stuff that I would never do. Down here in NC, they had to change building inspection rules of new homes to do the inspection after the plumbers, because the plumbers were cutting 6 inch notches into an 8 inch joist, effectively weakening the floor down to just 2 inches supporting at that point. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The disconnect isn't that people don't believe in Joe, the disconnect is where Joe thinks that he will be worse off under Obama's tax plan. Joe simply doesn't understand the concept of marginal tax rates, that's all. We could all be Joe (literally, exactly in his place) and still vote in our own best interests for Obama.
Incorrect - it's not about marginal tax rates at all.

It's about Mr. Obama telling us that he's going to take money from regular folks who work to be self-reliant and have the ambition to be successful, in order to "spread the wealth around" to those who lack that self-reliance or ambition.

It's just wrong, and it punishes regular folks who achieve their aspirations to be successful.
     
BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Incorrect - it's not about marginal tax rates at all.

It's about Mr. Obama telling us that he's going to take money from regular folks who work to be self-reliant and have the ambition to be successful, in order to "spread the wealth around" to those who lack that self-reliance or ambition.

It's just wrong, and it punishes regular folks who achieve their aspirations to be successful.
Joe would get a tax cut with Obama's plan, and not with McCain's plan. Obama's plan would make it easier for Joe to get to the point where he could buy the business he says he wants to buy, and he would get further tax cuts if he actually did buy it. How this can be spun around to what you say above, I don't know.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:42 AM
 
Obama's own words were "spread the wealth around" - It's not spin, it's the man's stated plan, and it's pure and absolute wrong.

""Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?" the plumber asked, complaining that he was being taxed "more and more for fulfilling the American dream."

"It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too," Obama responded. "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." "

Let me help you.

Obama: "It's not that I want to punish your success..."

translation: But I'm going to do so.

Obama: "I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance for success too,"

translation: ...without them having to work for their success as you work for yours.

Obama: "My attitude is that if the economy's good for folks from the bottom up, it's gonna be good for everybody ... I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

translation: I believe that when you take money from people who are successful and give it to people who haven't been successful, that this is good for everyone... nevermind the people that we took wealth from in the first place.

That's it. It isn't spin. It's Obama wanting to take from regular folks who hope to be successful, and give success to people who aren't self-reliant.

It's offensive and punitive to regular folks who are doing everything we can to be self-reliant and successful on our own.
     
BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:52 AM
 
The facts are that Joe would get a tax cut now and Joe would get a tax cut if he bought that business. Obama's plan would help him more than McCain's plan to be even more self-reliant.

You want to use some hazy interpretation of Obama's plan to criticize it even though the clear factual interpretation of it better matches your own stated goals of increased self-reliance. It just makes no sense vmarks.

Hazy, false interpretation of how Obama's plan would affect Joe: It would raise his taxes and reduce his self-reliance.
Clear, factual interpretation of how Obama's plan would affect Joe: It would cut his taxes and increase his self-reliance.
vmarks: I want lower taxes and more self-reliance for Joe, and therefore I choose to interpret Obama's plan with the hazy, false interpretation.

I just can't figure it out.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
Joe would get a tax cut with Obama's plan, and not with McCain's plan. Obama's plan would make it easier for Joe to get to the point where he could buy the business he says he wants to buy, and he would get further tax cuts if he actually did buy it. How this can be spun around to what you say above, I don't know.
BO's promise of a middle class tax cut has the all the believability of Bill Clinton's middle class tax cut. Clinton said only those making >$200k would see their taxes raised. Instead, we ALL saw are taxes raised, with the bottom rate going from 10% to 15%(a 50% increase!).

"Organization for action will now and in the decade ahead center upon America's white middle class. That is where the power is. ... Our rebels have contemptuously rejected the values and the way of life of the middle class. They have stigmatized it as materialistic, decadent, bourgeois, degenerate, imperialistic, war-mongering, brutalized and corrupt. They are right; but we must begin from where we are if we are to build power for change, and the power and the people are in the middle class majority."

Saul Alinsky
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BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
BO's promise of a middle class tax cut has the all the believability of Bill Clinton's middle class tax cut. Clinton said only those making >$200k would see their taxes raised. Instead, we ALL saw are taxes raised, with the bottom rate going from 10% to 15%(a 50% increase!).
As far as I know that last part isn't true. I believe the bottom rate was already at 15% when Clinton took office. I believe it was raised under Reagan.
     
stupendousman
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
Joe would get a tax cut with Obama's plan, and not with McCain's plan.
Whether he bought the business or not, I don't believe that's correct.
     
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Obama's own words were "spread the wealth around".
If you watched the actual video of Obama's discussion with Joe, you would have noticed that by "spreading the wealth around" Obama meant giving the Joes of 10 years ago the same opportunity to get to where Joe is today. By not taxing the hell out of middle income people who want to work themselves up. That's obvious from the context of the discussion.

Turns out the Joe of today is the Joe of 10 years ago. So he would actually be better off under Obama.
     
keekeeree
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:50 PM
 
I'm not Joe.

But good luck with that...
     
BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 12:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Whether he bought the business or not, I don't believe that's correct.
There aren't any new tax cuts for middle-income people in McCain's plan. There are in Obama's plan.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 18, 2008, 01:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by BRussell View Post
As far as I know that last part isn't true. I believe the bottom rate was already at 15% when Clinton took office. I believe it was raised under Reagan.
You're right, according to wikipedia it was raised from 11 to 15 during the last year of Reagan, and not changed again until the 2nd year of W. Bush.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 02:14 PM
 
You make a mistake. I'm not arguing in favor of any plan that McCain may have.

I'm arguing that Mr. Obama either intends to take property from those of us who succeed and give it to those of us who haven't, or he can't express himself well, because that's what we hear when he says he's going to "spread the wealth around."

Tax cuts are wonderful things, and 'less' is always the correct answer when the question is, 'how much of everyone's money should government steal today' - but Obama clearly said he was going to take the money of those of us who aspire to succeed and 'spread it around.'

Obama talks about raising taxes on people who are successful in order to give success to others.

Newsflash, you can't give out success. It has to be worked for. It's wrong when you're on the receiving end, and it's wrong when you're on the end that's being taken from.

Obama doesn't see that. He says he wants to make the bottom-end of the economy good by giving out money from the top of the economy.

When you do that, all that has to shift is what's bottom, and what's top, and squeeze everything in the middle as well. Obama's already said he wants to take away from people. For those of you who say 'but he's got a middle class tax-cut! Shut up, you'll benefit!' I have to answer, Obama's also talking about creating a civil defense force with the manpower and funding of the military, and he's got no place for it to come from but more taxes.

Either he's bad at communicating, or he's going to take from regular people who are striving to become successful, and punish them to give to others as he's said.

Perhaps he needed to have time to prepare a better answer? I don't know that. What I do know is that the general impression I get is that Barack Obama doesn't like regular folks.

It's remarks like 'spread the wealth' and 'clinging to guns and religion' that are really offensive to people who work for what we've got and don't want to give all our earnings from January to April to the government.*




Tax Freedom Day 2008 is April 23rd. Tax Freedom Day is the first day of the year in which a nation as a whole has theoretically earned enough income to fund its annual tax burden.
     
kobi
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Oct 18, 2008, 02:27 PM
 
So if your Joe...
  • then your 40 years old
  • former Arizonian
  • who makes $40,000 a year
  • with no education
  • who can't buy a business that makes $250,000 +
  • owes back taxes on his house from 2007
  • who isn't a plumber
  • a single father
  • and would a tax cut and Health Insurance under a Obama Admistration.
  • under McCain's plan you'd lose health insurance for you and your son, but you'd get a $5000 tax credit for health insurance, that can only be accepted by insurance companies, only to be dropped for a pre-existing condition, making insurance companies that much richer.
And your voting Republican?

Plus if all plumbing business's made $250,000+, wouldn't we see just as many Journeyman schools as we do Law Schools or Medical Schools?

I can see the high school grad making the desision now:
Should I go be a Plumber, a Lawyer or a Doctor? they all make $250,000+. Lets see Plumbing school is 9 months, Law school is 3 years on top of your bachelors' and Medical school is 7 years. I think I'll be the plumber, we'll make the same money after all.

But then again you don't have to have a license to be a plumber (in some states)
and be able to make $250,000+

You can lead a horse to water.......

Before any Joe's get offended my list is to reflect on the "Joe the Plumber" Republican plant in the media, not any "Joe the ______" who might post on these boards
The Religious Right is neither.
     
BRussell
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Oct 18, 2008, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Either he's bad at communicating, or he's going to take from regular people who are striving to become successful, and punish them to give to others as he's said.

Perhaps he needed to have time to prepare a better answer? I don't know that. What I do know is that the general impression I get is that Barack Obama doesn't like regular folks.

It's remarks like 'spread the wealth' and 'clinging to guns and religion' that are really offensive to people who work for what we've got and don't want to give all our earnings from January to April to the government.*
Have you watched that original video of Obama and Joe? Obama took 5 minutes and talked to him and took him seriously and explained his proposals. Let's set aside that Joe was trying to lay a "gotcha" on Obama, and all of the premises that he told Obama are false and were obviously designed to create a hypothetical situation that he believed would be damaging to Obama (it's just a coincidence I'm sure that when Joe lied to Obama about how much the business made, the lie just coincidentally happened to put the income right above where taxes would be increased). So a guy BS-ed Obama, Obama stayed there and talked with him for 5 minutes, shook his hand, and tried to honestly talk about what he wanted to do. I can certainly understand how someone could agree or disagree with Obama's specific plans. But I can't understand how anyone could watch that video and come away thinking that Obama doesn't like regular folks or isn't good at communicating.
     
kobi
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Oct 18, 2008, 03:08 PM
 
Great point BRussell, in fact Obama was going door to door in a swing state to talk to voters, when the Joe conversation happened.

Has McCain or Palin gone for a walk, much less door to door to meet with voters in this election? No

I doubt McCain and even walk without taking a handful of Cindy's pills to get him "Up", after all he is a "POW who was tortured"
The Religious Right is neither.
     
goMac
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Oct 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
 
I am Joe because I'm wanted for tax evasion and am not actually licensed to do my job?

Oh, wait, apparently we're not talking about that part...
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 18, 2008, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
http://gallery.me.com/victormarks#10...lack&view=grid

is the gallery I just uploaded for you to see.

I'm not in any of the photos, because I'm either working, or taking a few snaps to document it. I usually don't take photos, but I do when it seems mildly interesting as a guide or encouragement to folks who haven't attempted it before.
Hahaha , holy crap what a mess! Looks like you had a fun time with that!

My roomate/landlord just redid our kitchen and both bathrooms at his condo, but he got contractor(s) to do it. It was a total disaster zone for the first three weeks of school; at one point I had to bring my suit to the school gym and shower and dress there for law firm interviews, because we had no running showers for a couple days.....

greg
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villalobos
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Oct 18, 2008, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post

It's just wrong, and it punishes regular folks who achieve their aspirations to be successful.
And I bet that you would find that a lot of people who actually make $250,000 and more a year reall don't care about that 3% increase... The complainers are always louder than the others.
     
villalobos
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Oct 18, 2008, 06:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
BO's promise of a middle class tax cut has the all the believability of Bill Clinton's middle class tax cut. Clinton said only those making >$200k would see their taxes raised. Instead, we ALL saw are taxes raised, with the bottom rate going from 10% to 15%(a 50% increase!).
And guess what? At the end of his mandate, the USA had a surplus. Funny how it works eh?
     
chris v
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Oct 18, 2008, 06:32 PM
 
I am Joe because my small business went bankrupt last year, and now I work for a former client making half of what I used to be able to pay myself.

I am Joe because I was run out of business by competitors who hired illegal immigrants while I tried to pay my American employees a living wage, while doing quality work.

I am Joe because I find myself turning my car off at long red lights trying to save each tablespoon of gas.

I am Joe because I drive a 1991 model vehicle, with 210,000 miles on it, and I pray each day that it'll run for another five years, becasue I have no savings, and no credit.

I am Joe because I have a 16 year old daughter who wants to earn an engineering degree, but I have not a dime saved for tuition. She will likely emerge from a 4-year program $60,000.00 in debt.

I am Joe because I lost not a penny in the great stock market crash of 2008 because I had not a penny invested in anything, whatsoever. I laugh when I hear about people who lost "millions." (Part of being Joe is not shedding crocodile tears over the false tribulations of the super-rich.)

I am Joe because even in the face of all this, I still get up at 5:45 every morning, and return home after 6 PM, often work weekends, and am considering taking on a second job.

I am Joe because I make a little money on the side fixing up Macs and selling them on Cragslist and Ebay. Thank god, or we would have missed groceries a few times this year.

I am Joe because I am gradually selling off other possessions of mine on Ebay and Cragslist to keep my bank account from going negative between checks.

I am Joe because I expect nothing from a government that has proven that it is content to let me die should natural disaster strike. I have about 6 days of water & dried food stored in my garage at any time, though lately, I've been dipping into those stores as food prices have risen nearly 100%.

I am Joe because every day, I drive over the same 15-year-old potholes, because my local government has been strangled to the ppoint where it is no longer able to provide even basic services.

I am Joe because I have been in a protracted battle with my insurance company to actually pay claims that should be covered by my policy, but which they steadfastly deny. I pay them 106.00 per month for this "privilege," and I am lucky to have insurance, considering I work for a small employer.

I am Joe because I'm plenty pissed at the Bush administration for pissing away 10 BILLION dollars a month in a bone-headed, accidental war in Iraq.

I am Joe, because I've spent my adult life trying to vote the bums out, without success.

I am Joe because I could go on like this all night, but I need to go cook dinner for my family.
( Last edited by chris v; Oct 18, 2008 at 06:39 PM. )

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
kobi
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Oct 18, 2008, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
I am Joe because my small business went bankrupt last year, and now I work for a former client making half of what I used to be able to pay myself.

I am Joe because I was run out of business by competitors who hired illegal immigrants while I tried to pay my American employees a living wage, while doing quality work.

I am Joe because I find myself turning my car off at long red lights trying to save each tablespoon of gas.

I am Joe because I drive a 1991 model vehicle, with 210,000 miles on it, and I pray each day that it'll run for another five years, becasue I have no savings, and no credit.

I am Joe because I have a 16 year old daughter who wants to earn an engineering degree, but I have not a dime saved for tuition. She will likely emerge from a 4-year program $60,000.00 in debt.

I am Joe because I lost not a penny in the great stock market crash of 2008 because I had not a penny invested in anything, whatsoever. I laugh when I hear about people who lost "millions." (Part of being Joe is not shedding crocodile tears over the false tribulations of the super-rich.)

I am Joe because even in the face of all this, I still get up at 5:45 every morning, and return home after 6 PM, often work weekends, and am considering taking on a second job.

I am Joe because I make a little money on the side fixing up Macs and selling them on Cragslist and Ebay. Thank god, or we would have missed groceries a few times this year.

I am Joe because I am gradually selling off other possessions of mine on Ebay and Cragslist to keep my bank account from going negative between checks.

I am Joe because I expect nothing from a government that has proven that it is content to let me die should natural disaster strike. I have about 6 days of water & dried food stored in my garage at any time, though lately, I've been dipping into those stores as food prices have risen nearly 100%.

I am Joe because every day, I drive over the same 15-year-old potholes, because my local government has been strangled to the ppoint where it is no longer able to provide even basic services.

I am Joe because I have been in a protracted battle with my insurance company to actually pay claims that should be covered by my policy, but which they steadfastly deny. I pay them 106.00 per month for this "privilege," and I am lucky to have insurance, considering I work for a small employer.

I am Joe because I'm plenty pissed at the Bush administration for pissing away 10 BILLION dollars a month in a bone-headed, accidental war in Iraq.

I am Joe, because I've spent my adult life trying to vote the bums out, without success.

I am Joe because I could go on like this all night, but I need to go cook dinner for my family.
Amen. It's a shame that the powers that be don't get it. Like you I am in a lot of the same situations that you listed, so I know where your coming from.

Hopefully after Obama's elected, things will change for the better.
The Religious Right is neither.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Oct 18, 2008, 09:06 PM
 
I love how people focus on Joe rather than the facts behind the question he asked, and the telling answer given. It doesn't matter if Joe himself makes $250,000 right now- he never said he did. There are people who do. He said he planned to buy a business and make that much with it. No witch hunt details dregged up about Joe changes Obama's answer, and the fact that it will affect the business owners and earners he wants to target to 'spread the wealth around'.

Focusing on Joe is just a silly, obvious tactic, the kind of thing witch-hunting propagandists love to do.

Also, no one with any sense buys that if naive socialists have their way, the massive tax hikes needed to pay for their dreamed of utopias won't really all be pinned on people making $200,000 and more- that's election year BS! Taxes in socialist countries are greater for EVERYONE making any kind of livable income.

I'd be willing to bet that originally, the European versions of all this same nonsense were sold to people with lies like, "We'll only stick it to the rich! Everything will be paid for by soaking them, everyone else will actually pay less! Don't worry about the effect on business you've heard about, our unemployment levels will be low! Everything will be 'free'! Everyone will be happy! You're paying to keep the streets safe! It's not like anyone will ever be out torching your car! "

Same bullshit, different buyers.
     
goMac
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Oct 18, 2008, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
I love how people focus on Joe rather than the facts behind the question he asked, and the telling answer given. It doesn't matter if Joe himself makes $250,000 right now- he never said he did. There are people who do. He said he planned to buy a business and make that much with it. No witch hunt details dregged up about Joe changes Obama's answer, and the fact that it will affect the business owners and earners he wants to target to 'spread the wealth around'.
No, Joe himself doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that businesses have been given a tax break at the expense of the government. The government has basically been paying businesses money on credit. Now the bills are due.

Sucky timing for Joe? Sure. But it's time to pay back the deficit.
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Oct 18, 2008, 09:53 PM
 
I'm not going to respond to this thread, I'll just wait for the government to do it for me.
     
vmarks  (op)
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Hahaha , holy crap what a mess! Looks like you had a fun time with that!

My roomate/landlord just redid our kitchen and both bathrooms at his condo, but he got contractor(s) to do it. It was a total disaster zone for the first three weeks of school; at one point I had to bring my suit to the school gym and shower and dress there for law firm interviews, because we had no running showers for a couple days.....

greg
Actually, it wasn't a mess.

I used temporary fittings to join old work to new work. Every day at 5pm I cut the water back on to check for leaks.

Then I vacuumed and trashed any drywall, dust, old pipe and fittings from the day, showered, and then gave my twin girls (look in the pics aimed at the living room, you'll see their toys) a bath. Dinner fit in there somewhere.

Remember, I did this during weekends, so I had water during the week. Benefits from doing it myself?

(1) knowing it's done correctly.
(2) meeting my budget.
(3) doing it on my schedule, in times that are convenient instead of inconvenient, like you had to deal with.

This wasn't the first project I've ever taken on by any stretch. When I was in university, I came home for the summer and redid my mother's kitchen, new cabinets, new floor tiles instead of linoleum, etc.
The old cabinets went to my father's workshop.

I've also fixed leaks in the roof where the original roofers failed to do the flashing properly.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by goMac View Post
No, Joe himself doesn't really matter.

What does matter is that businesses have been given a tax break at the expense of the government. The government has basically been paying businesses money on credit. Now the bills are due.
The whole concept of a 'tax break' at the expense of the government, is so warped, it's not even funny.

That's like I rob you, and take a tiny bit LESS of your money this week. Even though the money I take from you funds the vast majority of my budget, I guilt trip you that you're not paying your fair share. I then proceed to spend FAR in excess of what I've taken from you so that I have a tremendous deficit.

Then I blame you for the deficit, and tell you the reason isn't the fact that I've spent way more than what I've taken from you, no way, it's that I didn't also steal that other little bit from you too. Now I get to steal that amount too, and then some.... and then I'll blow all that AGAIN, FAR in excess of what I take... and blame YOU for the deficit... again!

And goofier than all that? The fact that YOU ACTUALLY BUY IT!

Sucky timing for Joe? Sure. But it's time to pay back the deficit.
Pay the deficit? PLEASE!

There's another liberal fantasy- that you can have endless nanny-state "freebies" and more gigantic boondoggles on top of the current ones causing the deficits... AND not only not increase the deficit, but actually pay it off... and all without hammering the middle class. Because those endlessly gullible 'rich' people will just pay for everything. Riiiight.

Naive socialists aren't interested in paying off any deficit. Who are you imagining stealing the money from to do that, after you start a dozen new bottomless pit boondoggles, invite half the third world in to ride the gravy train of endless freebies, and enact all the utopian nonsense your messiah promises?
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:49 PM
 
[QUOTE=goMac;3744631]No, Joe himself doesn't really matter.
Actually, he does. See below.

Sucky timing for Joe?
No, it's not! Because Joe still doesn't make enough that he'd have to pay more, and even if he buys the business he claims to want to buy then he wouldn't pay more, and even if he buys it and does better than it's doing now, and manages to make more than 250k a year (by no means guaranteed), he still might even pay less under Obama's plan than he pays now, which is what Obama told him right in the Youtube video. People are making more out of Joe's hardships, which might even be non-existent if Joe would just pay attention.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 18, 2008, 10:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
The whole concept of a 'tax break' at the expense of the government, is so warped, it's not even funny.

That's like I rob you, and take a tiny bit LESS of your money this week.
There's no point in listening to someone who thinks that taxes are "robbing you." Do you think that the war(s), infrastructure, law enforcement and border security should all be conducted by private charities?
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Do you think that the war(s),
How is it that private citizens or business started those?

infrastructure,
Endless tax hikes aren't needed to pay for infrastructure, and certainly not existing infrastructure.

law enforcement
...or law enforcement, mostly a state/local expense anyway.

border security
pffft! Could you have picked a better example of something government purposefully fails MISERABLY AT -at the EXPENSE of its citizens- if you tried???


You've clearly fallen for the ruse that government failing to take care of the things its actually charged with, and wasting the tremendous amounts of money it's entrusted with to the tune of massive deficits, is the fault of citizens not paying enough.

Yes, it's theft when politicians are allowed to waste untold billions of dollars under blatantly false pretenses.

In the private sector, just a tiny fraction of the levels of cooked books, false advertising, fraud, mismanagement, embezzlement, bait and switch, conflicts of interest, theft, etc. etc. the government engages in routinely, and pawns off on the taxpayer, would be enough to throw the bulk of our politicians in prison. Yet because some people worship the government, they'll excuse anything, and blame everything on those that foot the bill.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 18, 2008, 11:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
war(s)
How is it that private citizens or business started those?
What does it matter who started them? If Bin Laden started a war with us that doesn't mean he's going to pay our expenses in it.

Endless tax hikes aren't needed to pay for infrastructure
And there we go. You have no basis in reality for arguing "endless tax hikes," when the income taxes have been higher than they are now for 80% of the history of income taxes. Barring the 7 years leading into the Great Depression, taxes are basically as low now as they've ever been. Arguing "endless tax hikes" reveals your argument as outlandish. "Endless tax cuts" would be a valid argument, if anyone was trying to argue it for some reason.

pffft! Could you have picked a better example of something government purposefully fails MISERABLY AT -at the EXPENSE of its citizens- if you tried???
Just because it's not working doesn't mean it's not necessary. I'll ask again, should it be a private charity instead?

You've clearly fallen for the ruse that government failing to take care of the things its actually charged with, and wasting the tremendous amounts of money it's entrusted with to the tune of massive deficits, is the fault of citizens not paying enough.
No I haven't, I hold government accountable too, I just restrain myself to holding them accountable for things that are based in reality. The accusation of "endless tax hikes" isn't.

Yes, it's theft
Governments need funding; there can be no practical government without taxes. The only question is how much. If you refuse to accept the basic premise of the debate, you'll accomplish nothing but deadlocking it like a child throwing a tantrum.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 19, 2008, 12:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The disconnect isn't that people don't believe in Joe, the disconnect is where Joe thinks that he will be worse off under Obama's tax plan. Joe simply doesn't understand the concept of marginal tax rates, that's all. We could all be Joe (literally, exactly in his place) and still vote in our own best interests for Obama.
The big problem is that you may think that a greatly expanded Social(ist) welfare state/government is in your best interests, while I may think it's not in my best interests - REGARDLESS OF INCOME. I believe in limited, Constitutional government; you clearly don't.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
hyteckit
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Oct 19, 2008, 12:48 AM
 
I am Joe.

I fight my own wars and don't need the stinking government to do it for me.

I pave my own roads and pay for my own education. Too bad I'm too stupid to graduate high school.

I don't like the government scaring me to believe that we need to spend more of my money on national defense. We spend more on national defense than the next 10 countries combined.

I don't want to spread my wealth to countries like Iraq and to corporations like Haliburton and Black Water.

I am Joe. If I make $40k/yr now, I'll stop trying to make more than $250k/yr if Obama becomes President.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Big Mac
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Oct 19, 2008, 02:55 AM
 
I would have responded to whatever incitement you posted in response to me, hyteckit, but I have you on ignore now so I don't have to read your drivel anymore.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Oct 19, 2008, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
What does it matter who started them? If Bin Laden started a war with us that doesn't mean he's going to pay our expenses in it.
That doesn't make any sense. You're arguing that taxes are justified because wars are started, even wars I take it you don't agree with. This is how these things go back and fourth- on the one hand, there's this (halfway logical) argument that taxpayers should accept higher taxes as if they were payments toward 'keeping the peace' in the streets, and paying for the infrastructure they use (along with everyone else). Okay- highly flawed, but still follows a shred of logic. Then you turn around and argue that no matter what crazy, money wasting business the government is also involved in, and the huge deficits they create doing it, they're obligated to accept paying higher taxes for that too. That makes no logical sense- no one starts a business in order to pay higher taxes for things that don't in any way directly benefit their business, so it's a really lame justification for higher taxes. At least try and keep your guilt trip reasons why paying more than a 'fair share' is somehow fair, consistent.


And there we go. You have no basis in reality for arguing "endless tax hikes,"
I'm talking about endless tax hikes that Democrats and liberals are always pushing for. Read my statement, I said it's what we DON'T need. Of course we don't currently have them, otherwise you wouldn't be blaming everything wrong in the world on someone else's taxes being too low.

The problem isn't someone else's taxes being low- we've had record revenues despite the lower top marginal rate. The problem, as always, is government spending too much- no matter what amount they take in (which pretty much always increases) they spend ever increasing amounts beyond that. It's encouraged by the attitudes of people like you, who've bought into it being a problem of people not paying enough, not a spending problem. So the crooks will go on taking in record revenues, and spending ever-increasing amounts more than they take in, and you'll keep on giving them the excuse of it being because someone's taxes were too low.

Just because it's not working doesn't mean it's not necessary. I'll ask again, should it be a private charity instead?
Ah, so now we know what the 'argument' will be once government has managed to screw up healthcare, and every other power grab it has no business being involved in.

"Well just because it's not working...." Eeesh.

Why should I accept a 'not working' immigration and border system in this country? It's one of the VERY FEW THINGS the freakin' government is actually SUPPOSED to be doing that's it's actually been charged with doing.

But hey, let's excuse that despite blowing record amounts of money govt fails even to take care of its most basic of duties. Heck, not only that, let's grant the bloat machine even MORE power over our lives. And when they screw up and record amounts of money are tossed down yet more rat holes? Hold the crooks that did the over spending accountable? HECK NO! Blame the people that pay for it all!.


Governments need funding; there can be no practical government without taxes. The only question is how much.
You toss that out like the government is underfunded.

Why does it matter how much with so many people like you making excuses left and right? Hell, the federal coffers could DOUBLE in the span of a year, the same crooks would spend TWICE as much and then some, find 40+new blackholes to toss even more money into, create twice the deficit, and you'd still let them get away with blaming the problem on the taxpayers, not their own spending. We pretty much saw this very thing during the 1980's.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 20, 2008, 01:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
You're arguing that taxes are justified because wars are started...
No, I'm arguing that taxes exist and that isn't going to change. Government is necessary (or are you an anarchist?), and that requires taxes, always has. As you have brought up, deficit spending effectively separates taxes from spending. How, what, and whom to tax is a separate issue from what we spend the taxes on, since if we don't collect enough to pay for our spending, it doesn't stop us from spending it anyway (I don't approve of this any more than you do, but that's no excuse for ignoring reality). This thread is about taxes, not spending. I was merely trying to create a common basis of discourse by giving examples of government spending that even you could agree with. I see that is a waste of time. Just answer me yes or no: should total taxes be $0 or an amount greater than $0?

I'm talking about endless tax hikes that Democrats and liberals are always pushing for.
To you, apparently this is some intangible philosophical question, not a reality-based one. To you, taxes should always be lowered, and your enemies by definition "always" push to raise taxes. To you, it seems, taxes must continually be lowered until they are at 0 (or less than 0, like Alaska?).

If you were at all concerned with reality instead of this extremist view that taxes must always be lowered, you would acknowledge the fact that current taxes are already far lower than they have been for most of the last century. You refuse to acknowledge this fact, instead banging the "ever lower" drum again and again, a constant drone with no analysis or consideration that there might be other valid viewpoints. A recent post much more informed and well-stated than I could provide has explained what I have been trying unsuccessfully to put into words. I highly encourage you to take your argument to bear in that thread; I'm sure it will be interesting reading. To the point, here is an excerpt which summarizes my view better than I have been able to do:

"There is no 'perfect' level of taxation and there is no single approach that is the correct approach at all times in history. For conservatives, the approach seems to be that a tax cut is always the cure but if that were always the case then tax rates would just be set to zero and be done with it (which is absurd because that'd mean no revenue.) Clearly, there has to be some level of taxation that is the 'sweet spot' that generates optimal revenue with minimal burden. Thing is, conservatives seem to almost blindly assert that whatever the current tax rate is, it should always be lower."

It's hard to believe current taxes are "too high" when they are at nearly the lowest point they have ever been. You have simply ignored this fact and repeated your simplistic premise that taxes must always be lowered, no matter the circumstances, and I expect an encore in your next post. If you even realize that taxes are "below the norm" I will be absolutely astounded at your progress.
     
johnwk
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Oct 21, 2008, 04:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
The disconnect isn't that people don't believe in Joe, the disconnect is where Joe thinks that he will be worse off under Obama's tax plan. Joe simply doesn't understand the concept of marginal tax rates, that's all. We could all be Joe (literally, exactly in his place) and still vote in our own best interests for Obama.
Oh come now, the cats out the bag and ordinary folk like Joe are beginning to realize what Obama’s game plan is all about----class warfare!


The unadulterated truth is, Obama’s proposed tax plan would intentionally redistribute hard working people’s paychecks to those who have no wage tax liability. Many people who have low paying jobs, have no tax liability on their earned wage, while others who earn more, some of whom have two low paying jobs to meet their expenses, do pay a tax upon their earned wages.

Obama’s game plan is the politics of class warfare in which someone always gets to be a tax slave and others remain tax free and feeding at the public trough. Let us not forget that every Black carpenter, plumber, electrician, and every other Black hard working person in America who is now earning between $37,596 to $66,394 per year, although they would get a 2.4 percent reduction in their federal wage tax under the Obama plan, they will still have their paychecks confiscated by Obama for redistribution, just as those tradesmen who are White, Latino, Oriental, etc., will likewise have their paychecks confiscated and redistributed under Obama’s plan.

Remember that approximately 43 percent of the 95 percent of the people Obama claims will get a tax cut under his plan, and who turn out to be people of all colors, shades and ethnic backgrounds, did not have a tax liability in 20006. Let me repeat that. 43 percent of the 95 percent of the people Obama claims will get a tax cut under his plan did not have a tax liability in 20006. This 43 percent, of the 95 percent Obama talks about, are the very kind of people ACORN recruits to vote ____ they are “tax getters“, and are a very large segment of Obama‘s voting block which he has carefully calculated into his class warfare politics.

Let us not forget that our “tax getters” under Obama’s proposed “tax cut” would get their “tax cut” in the form of a government check called a refundable tax credit amounting to $500 for single “tax getters“, or, $1,000 to each working couple who are “tax getters“. And, this check would in fact be spreading the wealth earned by “tax payers” like Joe the plumber, who earns $18,982.00 to $37,595.00 and up, and unlike our “tax getters“, these people who did have a tax liability in 2006, were also responsible for filling the national treasury unlike Obama’s “tax getters” who Obama is hopping will use their vote to steal their neighbors paycheck, and may very well tip the election in Obama’s favor. How nice that tax getters may choose our next president.


And what did our founding father’s have to say about taxing the wages which hard working Americans living in Harlem earn?

“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address
Here is a run down on Obama’s tax proposal

JWK

If we can make 51 percent of America’s population dependent upon a federal government check, we can then bribe them for their vote, keep ourselves in power and keep the remaining portion of America’s working population enslaved to pay the bills ____ our Marxist Democrat Party’s game plan, a plan to establish a federal plantation.
     
Dakar V
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Oct 21, 2008, 04:56 PM
 
Congratulations, Skeleton, you got a form letter reply.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Oct 21, 2008, 05:28 PM
 
And kind of a racist one too. That came out of left field.
     
besson3c
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Oct 21, 2008, 07:18 PM
 
vmarks: if you are Joe, why is your name listed as "vmarks"? Just because you are a moderator doesn't mean that it is cool to play games and try to trick people!
     
- - e r i k - -
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Oct 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
 
I'm Joe and so is my wife!

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SpaceMonkey
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Oct 21, 2008, 09:58 PM
 
I am Joe.


"One ticket to Washington, please. I have a date with destiny."
     
   
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