[desi]

this was kinda of covered in an earlier thread, but here it goes...

I am trying to start a career in graphic design. I have taken some classes months ago (those three weeek courses), but have immense trouble finding anywork. I am either too underqualified for paying jobs or for the internships I apply for I am inelgible because they prefer a student, preferably in a design school. The internships or volunteer positions I do get interviewed for go well, but since I have no experience, I am not getting anything. I have been told to do freelance work, for free, but have absolutely no idea how to make contacts or to gather clients. I was wondering about temp positions, but since I have no experience, would I even get anything? I'd like to do an internship just for the experience, but I need to be in school. I'm not sure if I should go back to school for a degree and also so I can get a damn internship too. What does everyone think? I vaguely know what i'm going to do, but do you think I should stick it out or think about going back to school, so perhaps I can make things easier? Thanks for any help on this matter.

[OptimusG4]

I too would like to know. I recently graduated with a web design degree and can't get **** because I have little experience. I'm trying freelance but so far the few that I have contacted decided to not let me know what their final decision was.

[iT4c0]

I think what you need is a nice porfolio to show to your client. I've always treat my school project as a real job. I want to make sure those project comes out perfect so I can put them in my porfolio. I am still in school but I've got some nice stuff and get ready to put them together. I wish you the best luck.

[frownyfrank]

Unforunately, I think you might be experiencing the brunt of several current economic/vocational conditions. (I will be writing just about the web market, which may or may not be similar to the print market)

1) The market is oversaturated with web designers who *do* have experience. Remember all those great layoffs from MarchFirst and tons of smaller agencies? Some of those designers are *still* looking for full-time work.

2) The economy is down to begin with, but in particular the web market has become insanely competitive, to the degree that agencies are not going to hire as much staff as they might actually *want*. On the other hand, use of interns is most likely up.

3) Web design/coding does not *require* a college degree. Generally speaking, I don't think most who have them have more than two years (maybe 4 for strict programmers). Plus, who doesn't know nowadays a few things about making a website? I would guess almost everyone who reads MacNN Forums knows enough to code a little html. My point is that I think the bar to enter the market is rather low comparatively.

OK -- now the "glass is half full" side:

1) Even given all of the above, there is a dirth of *good* designers, because unsurprisingly most clients are not educated about design, and will accept a half-assed level of quality to do something they typically think should cost about $10. ( ) There is a whole level of clients and designers at this level, and the first step is to rise above that.

Second, learn everything you can. You may be essentially a one-person-shop for a while, so understanding the back-end coding *and* the front side graphics/gui will make you a *very* strong candidate. Learning Director wouldn't be bad either because as web apps go, Director is considerably more complicated than Flash, and I think there are less people who code for it. Also if you can draw well, or at least understand most of the basic *real* concepts of shading, perspective, proportion and composition, this will be a great asset. You can learn a lot about design by learning how to draw (or at least trying). And photography too.

If you have the skills and talent, the experience will come. You need to grab anything and everything you can to make a portfolio. If you're going to school, that's a perfect place to find some experience. Try the faculty, post an ad, whatever. Spend the time to really polish those projects.

Small businesses are great targets to begin with too, as they have a tight bottom line, and often do not care about perfect-quality as much as just wanting their stuff up for everyone to see. Plus the projects will be simple enough to begin with that you can make sure everything is locked down. You can really amaze them with your design skillz.

One last thing...

A former art director I worked with told me that when he looks at porfolios, he tends to ignore the porfolios that are too flashy, try to be too cool, because often it means that that person does not have real work to do, or is trying to make up for an empty portfolio. I think that's maybe a bit extreme, but the underlying idea is true. Spend the time on your jobs, not so much on your portfolio itself.

OMG, sorry for the novel!

I wish you guys the best of luck! (But of course, you make your own luck.. )

[Chad A Wright]

This just backs up what I've always said, that the creative industry looks at your experience far more than at a degree.

I'm more in the print/radio/tv side of things, but I think it probably applies to web design as well. A degree doesn't mean you can design or be creative. It means you paid your money and sat in class. That's it.

Everytime someone outside the creative industry finds out I don't have a degree, they gasp in shock. But, the average advertising person could care less.

Perhaps one day I'll reach that job that I must have a degree to get, but until then I'm cruising along quite nicely without one.

[andi*pandi]

yes, but all other things being equal (portfolio, skill, charisma during interview) the one with the degree will get it.

Like see above... the guy who's taken a couple of 3-week courses, I wouldn't take as seriously as, say, Optimus, who also doesn't have much experience, but at least has a degree. if it's from a quality institution, I can assume that he didn't just "sit thru class" to get it, and must have some skill and knowledge.

Without a degree or lots of experience, there is no commitment evident. How is a hiring manager to know you won't get a yen to try architecture next week?

Dabbling may be well and good, but design is a skill, a craft, an inate ability, that despite those late-night TV ads for second-rate technical schools, cannot be easily picked up by any unemployed joe with a computer and a black turtleneck.

/rant

[OptimusG4]

Well, I sorta have a portfolio to back up my degree, but it's still hard to get something. I understand completely that people look at experience rather than a degree, and it frustrates me cause I do have a few sites I've worked on before while in school and I still can't even get a reply from anyone. It sucks

www.monkeyboycreation.net

It might not be the best looking portfolio but it's something.

[george328]

Well, all I can tell you is how it worked for me. It's a combination of patience, determination, luck and sacrifice.

I graduated with a degree in Biology but I've always wanted to work in the graphic design field.

I started out very, very low, as a typesetter for a local newspaper. Every once in a while I would ask for an ad to do. At first it would be small 1/12 ads. The ads kept getting larger and larger and finally they allowed me to design all the ads and hired someone else as a typesetter.

This company also had a small magazine. Soon I asked to do one or two layouts per issue. They gave me the chance and liked the work I did. Over the course of two years I started doing more and more layouts. When the art director left the job was handed to me.

Eventually I jumped ship to a larger company where I voluntarily took a step back in the hopes to again work my way up the ranks. I started out doing ads, eventually as in my previous company, I asked to do layouts, and so on and so on. Now five years later I'm running four magazines with another one in the pipeline. All because I gradually earned the trust of my bosses.

If you're willing to make sacrifices and believe in the work you do, someone will bound to notice you. Start out small, keep your ears open, don't be afraid to ask for additional work here and there. You just need to get a toehold into that door, once you have it you can slowly nudge it open.

Hope this helps.

[desi]

thanks fo rthe advice, but unfortunately most of this doesn't help, or rather explain to me how to get started. I guess I'm in a catch22, everyone says I need experience, that much is certain and some say a degree is necessary, though to get experience, msot companies or places want a degree or someone with more experience than me. Doesn't that just sound frustarting? So to get experience I need experience but I don't recieve opportunities for experience cause I got no experience.

So, what's someone like me to do? Just waiit for a chance? It gets infuriating not getting called back just for a volunteer job. And I assume that there are so many people out there with the most basic exoperience and/or a degree that I'm just not in a very good situation. Does this mean that I should give up? Absolutely not. But I find that it is exteremely difficult to break into this industry. One thing someone said was to keep your ears open and take on a lot of small jobs, but how can I do that when I have no contacts or clients or how to advertise myself and what not? And when it's just as easy to look for someone out there with experience for a small job do I even have a chance?

Regardless, I appreciate all the advice so keep it coming cause you don't know how much it helps even if doesn't seem like it right now, cause I don't intend to give up. thanks!

[thePurpleGiant]

Originally posted by desi:
So, what's someone like me to do? Just waiit for a chance?

Well, I'd have to suggest going freelance as well. Send some nice looking brochures to local/small businesses regarding your web design. Don't charge much, get experience. You will be getting very little money at this stage (make sure you have another job), but you will learn lots about clients and jobs.

I has pretty basic design skills, and no experience at the start of this year when I decided to go freelance. I setup a business website and made sure that it looked good. That's important. I ordered some business cards - they're not very expensive for about 500. Made sure they looked good too.

I had 1 client to start with. The owner of that business had a nephew starting his own business, so I got them too. I handed out my cards to everyone I knew. I have had 3 parents of people I know call me in this way because the place they own or work for needs a site.

Business owners talk to business owners. Make sure the sites you make are perfect (don't take shortcuts) so that they will become good folio sites. Don't charge for the extra time you spend making minor changes (you can do that later on).

After about 6 sites now, I have my first decent client - a real estate company - who heard about me through one of the other business owners.

All the best mate, just remember - its all about image. Make your site professional, your business cards professional, your manner professional - even your invoices should look decent. it's worth it.

Optimus: Don 't have pages on your site that say "under construction"!! Either fill them up damn quick or don't put a link there in the first place. Under construction pages on the web are the devil - unelss you honestly plan on changing the page in under two weeks. If so, give a timeline to come back.

[DeathMan]

If you really want experience, and you don't mind working for free, set up a little $8/month hosting thing with godaddy, or no monthly fees or someone, open the phonebook, and start calling people. Tell them its totally free, because you're just starting out, and you need to gain experience. Be totally up front. Easiest "sales" you'll ever make.

Once you do a couple of those, you'll have a portfolio going, and you can start calling people, and telling them how much you charge.

Eventually, if you're a decent designer, and a hard worker, you'll have people coming to you.

The portfolio is everything, so don't slack on the free ones (assuming you do free ones). Do your best work, because thats what's going to get you the sale later on.

Going back to school could help you get contacts. It helped me to some extent. So, I would consider that.

If you wait around for an oppurtunity, you will live your life in poverty. I've noticed that the oppurtunites come while your busy. Even if the oppurtunity isn't related to what you're working on, sitting around will get you nothing.

[desi]

well, first, I don't do web sites, well at least not yet, as I don't know any of the software or really have the interest in it, though I do know very basic HTML from college. But what you all said isn't strictly applied to web design so it helps. Those are all good tips, considering I know nothing of doing freelance. Though I already knew that I would be doing free work to start and then learn from there. I wanted to do some sort of internship while trying to do a little free freeleance for experience but that isn't happening. It's hard being out there not knowing anything and having to figure it out on your own so all the tips you all are providing are invaluable. And so, I give you my thanks. Salud.

[iT4c0]

I also believe that you gotta have some sort of connection in the design field. My teacher always tell me to go to the trade show, join AIGA, enter the contest. All these things will get your name out in the design business. Did anyone mention about awards? More awards might help you as well. I checked your portfolio site and I like it a lot. I think you will get clients easily. Maybe it is not the time yet?
good luck!!

p.s does anyone remember a site that just like ebay but for graphic design? i will try to find the URL.

[iT4c0]

www.elance.com

check this site out. You might be able to get some works here
let me know if it works!

[Chad A Wright]

If you want to start at the very bottom (as has already been mentioned), go to your local newspaper and apply for a job laying out their ads. It's not a great job, and the pay is probably even worse, but it will get you into some type of design job. Work your way up from there.

That's where I started and I've slowly worked my way up. They are always looking for someone who at least knows how to use quark and photoshop. Sometimes just quark.

[MikeM33]

I hate to say it because as a Graphic Designer you *should* make XX dollars per hour or per year. With your first "gig" though, you should aim low. I mean real low. They hire you cheap and show you the ins and outs of the business in return. I know it stinks, but you gotta get your foot in the door first.

This is basically how I got into it. I was hired for 5 grand per year less than other new (but "big college" and "art school" educated) employees. I only had about a semester's worth of basic design courses from community college under my belt at that time, and not even any time in computer graphics in school yet. They hired me based on a real crappy looking Microsoft Works resume I'd made-up at the time.

Web or Print? For me the decision was simple because I have been an artist for ages (I just never took it seriously enough to think I could actually make any money doing it). I'd had some experience working in printing as a press operator also. When I decided to make the jump I knew it had to be a print related field (which is what I've been doing now for years).

I don't think you need to work for free though. If you apply yourself right you can get a paying gig. At the same time, you probably shouldn't be looking to make $50.00 an hour to get your foot in the door.

MikeM

[george328]

Desi, what programs are you proficient in? Quark? Photoshop? Illustrator? Do you have any sample ads you've mocked up?

[desi]

Originally posted by george328:
Desi, what programs are you proficient in? Quark? Photoshop? Illustrator? Do you have any sample ads you've mocked up?

I wouldn't say I'm proficient in any of them, as I'm just starting out and what not, so how could I be all that proficient. I took these classess so i would know how to use them and then apply my so-called artistic talents to them. I know how to use them well enough, but my program skills are eroding due to the lack of work. I've done some mock ads for my portfolio, really one or two, but it's hard thinking of ideas when I have none. It's really easier for me if someone gave me an idea and I would then make it. Though if I have ideas already I can make it into reality. I mainly work on icons and similar things in my spare time and I had made some posters I wanted to sell in the future. I really have no idea about how any of the facets of this industry work so these tips are giving me an idea.
I'm not sure if some of the previous people posting missed the point that in this economic climate, I really can't just go to the local newspaper and apply for a job to do layouts. I can't even get an internship, but thats usually because they require a student enrolled in design school or some such graduate program. I'd love to get a lowly positon making squat or even nothing if it would provide me with some experience, but that simply isn't happening. Though I will see about a position hopefully in the next week, so maybe this finally is my damn break. And if it isn't well, just gotta keep working it. Though from what I've heard, graphic design is a tough industry to break into, and with the economy and my lack of experience, well...let's just say I ain't hopin' for too much.

[efru]

If you want to impress clients, learn flash. And learn it well..

[andi*pandi]

Originally posted by desi:
I wouldn't say I'm proficient in any of them

well there you go. Even the most lowly jobs expect you to at least know the tools.

[desi]

Originally posted by andi*pandi:
well there you go. Even the most lowly jobs expect you to at least know the tools.

Well like I said, I'm just starting out so how proficient could I be. Most people out there might not even be that proficient in these programs anyhow. The classes I took mainly had people in the field who their companies sent to learn how to use the programs better. If I were proficient, than I wouldn't really be looking for a starting position or even an internship. Most ads place the word proficient in their description but what does that really mean? I guess you missed when I stated further in that post that I knew the programs well enough, for a lowly position anyways. And most places that I interviewed for never expected me to know that much, since it was an entry level position and you would learn and progress your skills on the job. It's rather the lack of any concrete experience that is my problem. If all of the applicants look the same to you, then you see what sort of experience they have, and since I have none, maybe I'm alreeady out of the running. But, yes, I know how to use these programs well enough to get a job using them. Proficiently? Certainly not as well as people who have been in the business longer than I.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by efru:
If you want to impress clients, learn flash. And learn it well..

That's one of the worst advice I've heard.

The demand for Flash is still way too low.

[johneee]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
That's one of the worst advice I've heard.

The demand for Flash is still way too low.

And justifiably so, in my opinion.

I've spent months (while on salary... not my own time) learning Flash, I've spoken at conferences about it, and lectured and taught people how to use it.

I still think it's the devil for 90% of the things it's actually being used for out there.

Learn one thing and learn it well (for web... although the principle holds for print as well) - anything you produce is all about the content. Anything that doesn't directly contribute to supporting the content of what you produce doesn't belong in the product.

Leave your ego at the door. You're producing for a client, and anything you put in simply because you think it's cool or neat is nothing more than intellectual masterbation.

[sethwrks]

A trick I've used in the past to get work was to look in any magazine,
find a smaller company's ad, and make my own and send it to them. Big companies have in-house people that will just laugh at you. (sometimes)
But smaller places appreciate effort and may call you for more.

I didnt have to spend much time on the ads, but I've actually got a couple of clients from this, and at least some pieces for my portfolio.


E-lance is swamped with people and maybe not a good place to start.

Your portfolio is where to begin, get one on the web then send the address to EVERYONE you can think of. Someone will respond eventually. keep it simple and to the point, let them see your work, not your excess of free time.





sethwrks.com

[himself]

I would suggest going back to school. No one's hiring, not even for internships, and what else are you going to do in the meantime? It can only help at this point. And as it was pointed out earlier, it is much easier to get an internship (even a paying internship) if you're still in school; usually they're grooming you to come join them when you get out of school. Also, networking is much easier at school than it is if you're out on your own. A couple of professors kept in contact with me about other designers who might need help from someone with my skills. Joining an organization like the AIGA (highly recommended) is extremely cheap as a student, and the connections you'll make there (nationwide connetions) are invaluable. They have student competitions that can do a lot to get your work and name out, and they have a yearly show of student work from graduating classes. Not to mention, many people place job posting for freelance design work in college/university graphic design departments, so you will see some money earning opportunities. Plus, it's the perfect place to sharpen up on the tools (computer programs) and design fundamentals, as opposed to making mistakes on someone else time (and money).

Whatever choice you make, I sincerely hope it works out for you. Lately, the design industry has been looking up (print has been looking up... the web is another story), so if you take a semester or two to sharpen up and build your portfolio, you should be ready to dive right in once people start hiring en masse again.

[godzookie2k]

Originally posted by desi:
I've done some mock ads for my portfolio, really one or two, but it's hard thinking of ideas when I have none. It's really easier for me if someone gave me an idea and I would then make it.

hate to say it, but then you aren't cut out for the field. creativity is job requirement one.

[desi]

Originally posted by godzookie2k:
hate to say it, but then you aren't cut out for the field. creativity is job requirement one.

I didn't mean it quite so literally. Sitting around and not having any work to do, it's hard to think of ideas right there and then in this type of environment. It can be like writing, i.e. writer's block.
Most types of work you get will end up being dictated by the client or company, or the base for the idea will come from them and then it is up to you to do the rest. So, it really is only a problem when you have to think of something yourself which you may not be doing all that frequently. After awhile of doing mock ups, I just run out of fresh ideas because I'm inexperienced, and I need to be working or doing something to keep my mind working�well at least for me that is. I've run out of ideas for what to do for my portfolio and a lot of other things would just seem redundant to put in it. I would think an employer would like to see different material rather than five pieces that employ the same techniques. But as i am still learning, and not really practicing all that much due to lack of work, how can I really polish my skills or learn more. Maybe it would matter if I had more interviews to go to that would want to see my portfolio. Everything is tight right now and I seem to be in a catch 22 so it's very frustrating and isn't a very condusive environment to think of new ideas. But I certainly won't use this as an excuse to quit or stop trying to do new things or learn more than what I already do.

[desi]

Originally posted by himself:
I would suggest going back to school. No one's hiring, not even for internships, and what else are you going to do in the meantime? It can only help at this point. And as it was pointed out earlier, it is much easier to get an internship (even a paying internship) if you're still in school; usually they're grooming you to come join them when you get out of school. Also, networking is much easier at school than it is if you're out on your own. A couple of professors kept in contact with me about other designers who might need help from someone with my skills. Joining an organization like the AIGA (highly recommended) is extremely cheap as a student, and the connections you'll make there (nationwide connetions) are invaluable. They have student competitions that can do a lot to get your work and name out, and they have a yearly show of student work from graduating classes. Not to mention, many people place job posting for freelance design work in college/university graphic design departments, so you will see some money earning opportunities. Plus, it's the perfect place to sharpen up on the tools (computer programs) and design fundamentals, as opposed to making mistakes on someone else time (and money).

Whatever choice you make, I sincerely hope it works out for you. Lately, the design industry has been looking up (print has been looking up... the web is another story), so if you take a semester or two to sharpen up and build your portfolio, you should be ready to dive right in once people start hiring en masse again.

I essentially feel the same way. It seems I need to be in school to get an internship and all I really want now is some experience and of course an internship is the perfect way to go. I couldn't care less if i got paid or not, I just want the damn experience. I just wish I had known this a long time ago, cause obviously, it would have saved me a lot of trouble, but that's how things are and I have to learn from my mistakes. It certainly will take a lot of time and money to get this done, but that's how things are. thnaks for the tip though.

[Kikaida]

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
That's one of the worst advice I've heard.

The demand for Flash is still way too low.

I completely agree. One of the mistakes graphic designers make when trying to start a career in web/interactive media is to focus too much on a site's asthetic/sensory appeal(Flash's main strength) rather than it's ability to provide meaningful content or functionality to a user audience. Flash is awesome, but it's dessert. You need to know how to cook a fulfilling meal first.

Pick up a couple of books on Information Architecture, Information Design and User Interface. You'll look at 'web design' a whole different way, and probably impress your next interviewer.