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The Adopt a Rig Rules and FAQ v0.9b
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Zimmerman
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Aug 22, 2004, 11:28 AM
 
The MacNN Distributed Computing Team Adopt-A-Rig Rules and Policies v0.1

The Skinny:

The MacNN adopt-a-rig project is intended bring components and resources together to add computing power to distributed research projects MacNN is/will be involved in including but not limited to: SETI@Home, dFold, Folding@Home, RC5, Ubero, and D2OL.

The program coordinator will allocate components to be sent to the Host. It is the responsability of the Host to assemble the rig and install any necessary operating systems and clients. As incentive to be a host, the host will recieve any points generated by the adopt-a-rig system [NOTE: This policy decision can changed without warning].

By volunteering to be a Host, the Host will submit their personal contact information to the program coordinator including real name, address, and phone number.

Responsibilities of the Host: The host will provide the space, electricity, always-open internet connection and tech support for the adopt-a-rig system. The host is also responsible for providing a keyboard, mouse, monitor and any networking cabling for the system though it is not necessary to have a dedicated keybd/mouse and monitor.

The Requirements to be a Host: Must be at least 18 years old, a proven contributor to MacNN distributed computing projects, and to have shown a mark of maturity, reliability, and good faith in their conduct as a member of the MacNN community. These terms are deliberately non-quantatative and Host selection falls to the discretion of the adopt-a-rig program administrators, MacNN Administration and Forum Moderators.

Requirements to Donate: The components need to be in working order. With rising energy prices, it is preferred that the components not be extremely obsolete (Pentium Pro) so that the host�s energy not be wasted. New and used are both accepted. At a minumum, a rig needs the following components: cpu, motherboard, ram, hard drive, power supply, and a case. Additionally, the system may have an optical drive and video card though the computer may be managed remotely through TightVNC or other VNC apps. Once delivered to the project manager, all comonents become property of the MacNN adopt a rig program and the MacNN community.

These rules may be amended or upended at any time for any reason. You have been warned! Remember folks, its about the research. Keep folding.
( Last edited by Zimmerman; Aug 25, 2004 at 11:07 AM. )

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Zimmerman  (op)
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Aug 22, 2004, 11:32 AM
 
Ok, this is the preliminary rules that I've hashed out. For now, I need input on what else might need being included including liability wavers, legalese stuff etc etc.

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Chinasaur
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Aug 22, 2004, 12:02 PM
 
Dear MacNN,

Team Free-DC did this about 1.5 years ago and called them Hydra's. Free-DC found that one massive farm was too much and created three - West, Central and East.

We used them as clusters to be put on "firefighter" projects to keep from being overrun or as steady, dependable production.

HydraWest is currently off-line but the other two function in one way or another. If you are interested in some of the problems associated with doing this, or getting some tips on making it easier, you can contact the Hydra operators or searc the Free-dc.org forums for information.

Best of luck with your project.
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reader50
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Aug 22, 2004, 12:27 PM
 
Interesting. However, this last section could be trouble:
I [Zimmerman] will act as intermediary and will assemble the systems and delegate rigs to hosts once a system is completed.
If we used a central assembler, that person would get stuck with the shipping costs to send completed systems all over the world. That could turn out to be $25-50 each for completed systems to USA destinations, possibly much more to other countries.
     
OneMacGuy
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Aug 22, 2004, 12:38 PM
 
Questions:

Who gets the points for the WUs turned in?
What OS will they run, does anyone care?
How about opening a paypal account to make small donations to buy components such as memory, CPU and mobos?

I have plenty of parts as I run a computer repair business. I can also host some of these systems in my garage and I can repair/build them. I am not hot about shipping heavy components such as cases, but I can certainly provide some of the following:

hard drives
video cards
network cards
cdroms
floppy drives
sound cards
HS/fans
other fans
network cabling
small hubs
SCSI Cards
I do have some older ATX cases, too.
several older motherboards that include AMD K6/2 500 CPUs (I won't run any of these, they are too slow for folding)
     
Lateralus
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Aug 22, 2004, 12:41 PM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
Questions:

Who gets the points for the WUs turned in?
What OS will they run, does anyone care?
I think that whoever is paying for the electricity to run the machine should get the points/WUs, and have say in what project is run on the machine.

Same for the OS.
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Zimmerman  (op)
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Aug 22, 2004, 12:54 PM
 
Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I think that whoever is paying for the electricity to run the machine should get the points/WUs, and have say in what project is run on the machine.

Same for the OS.
Sounds good to me though we could have someone create a drive image CD with a specially configured distro of linux with all necessary files and all the user would have to do is put the image on the hdd... then again, linux sucks when it comes to getting components to work to gether, or at least it did last time I tinkered (haha) with it.

Do you think we shoud pick a host, then start shuffling components their way until they have enough to assemble a complete system? That sounds like the plan with the least headaches.

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mikkyo
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Aug 22, 2004, 02:17 PM
 
I think the Adopt-A-Rig systems should all use an account like TheRig for all the projects. That way all the credit goes to the rig and the team, not just an individual of the team, and donators won't feel their donations are just pumping up someone else's credits.
The team gets credit and everyone knows TheRig is a giant system that tons of people contributed to. An Adopt-A-Rig Donations page could be set up to give praise to those that have donated parts and systems, and to encourage additional donations.
     
Lateralus
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Aug 22, 2004, 02:27 PM
 
I just don't see the appeal in participating if you're going to be taking the responsibility of keeping the machine up and running properly, which includes taking care of any software issues or replacing any dead/dying parts, paying for the electricity to run it 24/7, and giving up the room required to set it up if you wont be able to use it for a project of your choice under your own account.

Frankly, I don't see the point in creating a big account for all the donated rigs to send work in under. So long as the person particpating is a member of Team MacNN, the team will get the credit no matter what, which is the goal right?
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OneMacGuy
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Aug 22, 2004, 11:13 PM
 
Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
I just don't see the appeal in participating if you're going to be taking the responsibility of keeping the machine up and running properly, which includes taking care of any software issues or replacing any dead/dying parts, paying for the electricity to run it 24/7, and giving up the room required to set it up if you wont be able to use it for a project of your choice under your own account.

Frankly, I don't see the point in creating a big account for all the donated rigs to send work in under. So long as the person particpating is a member of Team MacNN, the team will get the credit no matter what, which is the goal right?
I agree with PowerMacMan completely on this issue. There needs to be some incentive to spend all of the time and money to host these farm machines.
     
Zimmerman  (op)
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Aug 23, 2004, 11:31 AM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
I agree with PowerMacMan completely on this issue. There needs to be some incentive to spend all of the time and money to host these farm machines.
The biggest problem I see with this is accountability. Regardless how well represented a person is online, the human mind is a curious thing. Granted we can hedge ourselves with a good host selection process but even so some sort of accountability needs to be had. Is there a way to view a single machines production history? If that is possible then I can't see an issue. I just dont' want to turn this into, "lets give somebody a cheap pc to run off with." Maybe a host will have to submit their real phone number and we could give them a call just to make sure they're where they claim. Maybe I'm paranoid and this is unnecessary, but it warrants consideration.

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OneMacGuy
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Aug 23, 2004, 01:22 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimmerman:
The biggest problem I see with this is accountability. Regardless how well represented a person is online, the human mind is a curious thing. Granted we can hedge ourselves with a good host selection process but even so some sort of accountability needs to be had. Is there a way to view a single machines production history? If that is possible then I can't see an issue. I just dont' want to turn this into, "lets give somebody a cheap pc to run off with." Maybe a host will have to submit their real phone number and we could give them a call just to make sure they're where they claim. Maybe I'm paranoid and this is unnecessary, but it warrants consideration.
Seems to me if we ship someone the parts to build a computer, we will know an awful lot about them anyway, like REAL name and address, so a phone number is not far behind. Let's face it, we're not talking about a big monetary risk here, mainly just spare parts we all have laying around. I don't really care what happens to the ones I am willing to give.

BTW, there is no way in any of the projects I am familiar with to track a single machines history without using a unique name per machine.
     
siliconman
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Aug 23, 2004, 01:45 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimmerman:
Is there a way to view a single machines production history?
The distributed.net clients can be tracked with a personal proxy. I've not looked at the specifics of a log, but I used to use the team's proxy stats http://teamstats.macnn.com/rc5stats/ (Not currently available, I assume waiting on the apache rewrite mentioned here:http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=219685) to track which of my machines were producing RC5 blocks. I used a different client build for each machine so that I could tell if a machine was falling behind. I imagine that the actual logs go into greater detail than those stats and we could break it down by IP address or some other bit of detail in the proxy's log.

Do any other projects provide a personal/team proxy?

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OneMacGuy
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Aug 24, 2004, 06:51 AM
 
Why not put together a poll and see how many people would participate by donations and hosting? Poll the contentious issues like "who gets credit for WU's crunched?"

Anyone else got ideas for questions for the poll?
     
Zimmerman  (op)
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Aug 25, 2004, 11:06 AM
 
I've revised the Rules. Please re-read and comment. Thanks.

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OneMacGuy
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Aug 25, 2004, 01:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimmerman:
I've revised the Rules. Please re-read and comment. Thanks.
Looks good to me, let's get started!
     
reader50
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Aug 25, 2004, 01:49 PM
 
Comments

The rules version should have gone go v0.2

I'm not comfortable with the "all points go to the Host" part. That is a lot of incentive, but the donors lack incentive to create a few supercrunchers on the team. After all, we could donate components to mikkyo, OneMacGuy, Scott, and Shaktai today without a program. How in the world are the rest of us supposed to pass those lucky turkeys? But electricity does cost, and space isn't always available. My thought would be for boxes to run two clients each, one for a dedicated team account, and one for the Host. Boxes not powerful enough for this are usually too old for dedicated crunch duties anyway. That, or half the boxes crunch for the Host and half for dedicated team accounts.

Next, what project(s) do the boxes crunch on? The consensus of the team may be to crunch on a project that the Host considers useless, or vice versa. There is a DC project dedicated to distributed rendering of abstract screen images. Suppose a large Host puts all the boxes on that one, when most of the donors are interested in cancer research or ET's tech licensing agreements? Picking responsible Hosts is the best way to avoid that problem.

The clients running on a dedicated team account should have their projects picked by the team leaders, according to current member interests. To go easy on the Host, the Host can limit project switches to one per month. If the Host gets all units produced by the donated rigs, then the team should still determine what project most or all of the boxes crunch on.
     
OneMacGuy
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Aug 25, 2004, 06:23 PM
 
Originally posted by reader50:
Comments

The rules version should have gone go v0.2

I'm not comfortable with the "all points go to the Host" part. That is a lot of incentive, but the donors lack incentive to create a few supercrunchers on the team. After all, we could donate components to mikkyo, OneMacGuy, Scott, and Shaktai today without a program. How in the world are the rest of us supposed to pass those lucky turkeys? But electricity does cost, and space isn't always available. My thought would be for boxes to run two clients each, one for a dedicated team account, and one for the Host. Boxes not powerful enough for this are usually too old for dedicated crunch duties anyway. That, or half the boxes crunch for the Host and half for dedicated team accounts.

Next, what project(s) do the boxes crunch on? The consensus of the team may be to crunch on a project that the Host considers useless, or vice versa. There is a DC project dedicated to distributed rendering of abstract screen images. Suppose a large Host puts all the boxes on that one, when most of the donors are interested in cancer research or ET's tech licensing agreements? Picking responsible Hosts is the best way to avoid that problem.

The clients running on a dedicated team account should have their projects picked by the team leaders, according to current member interests. To go easy on the Host, the Host can limit project switches to one per month. If the Host gets all units produced by the donated rigs, then the team should still determine what project most or all of the boxes crunch on.
I disagree with anything other than the host getting the credits. Running two instances of the CLI on a single processor box is a waste and is slower by more than half. If I don't host a single box, that is OK, but hosting is by far the most costly portion of creating the systems. Space, electricity, cooling, loading, maybe assembling and maintenance is the biggest burden of expense.
As far as which project, well that is open to debate. In the foreseeable future, a few boxes thrown together from parts will make very little difference to most of the team efforts anyway, but may help an individual user more as they help the team.
In the poll, as of 8-25-2004, the voters have decided by a 61% majority to let the host get the points.
     
Lateralus
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Aug 25, 2004, 10:28 PM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
I disagree with anything other than the host getting the credits. Running two instances of the CLI on a single processor box is a waste and is slower by more than half. If I don't host a single box, that is OK, but hosting is by far the most costly portion of creating the systems. Space, electricity, cooling, loading, maybe assembling and maintenance is the biggest burden of expense.
As far as which project, well that is open to debate. In the foreseeable future, a few boxes thrown together from parts will make very little difference to most of the team efforts anyway, but may help an individual user more as they help the team.
In the poll, as of 8-25-2004, the voters have decided by a 61% majority to let the host get the points.
Yes, very much agreed.
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reader50
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Aug 26, 2004, 12:32 AM
 
Ok, lets figure it up. Regardless of what Barbie says, math is your friend ... and figures never lie, right?

Assumptions
The typical box will be run headless.
Parts are 1-3 years old.
It will run 24/7 for 11 months out of the year. Time lost to downtime for misc reasons.
Power draw is 100W, but will actually vary from 75-125W depending on what CPU is used.
Power costs 11� per KWH, actual cost will vary by location.
Price to put together such a box with purchased parts: approx $300.
No A/C cooling needed. True in many locations, or true 11 months a year.

Box cost and power draw assumptions come from Scott. The 11� per KWH comes from my own bill in California.

The Figures
100 W
x 24 Hours
= 2.4 KWH per day
x 30 Days
= 72 KWH per month
x $0.11 per KWH
= $7.92 per month
x 11 months
= $87.12 per year.

If you rerun the calculations based on actual CPU, but leave the power cost the same, it works out like this:

75W (Older P3) Box = $65.34 per year.
100W (Midrange) Box = $87.12 per year.
125W (Newer P4) Box = $108.90 per year.

Analysis
Assuming such a box costs $300 to obtain the normal way, the Host is getting a steal. Pay for the power and end up owning the box in two years, at just over half price. You'd have to assume a power cost of 19� per KWH for it to cost $300 in two years, or you have to assume you'll end up being donated mostly high end P4s.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the team to get the crunched units until the Host inherits the box. Still, a compromise. Suppose the Host inherits the box in 18 months, at that power cost of $130.68, the Host would get the box at just under 44% of cost. That's a pretty darn good deal for helping out the team by loaning out some space.
     
Lateralus
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:00 AM
 
Yeah, I still couldn't disagree with you more.

#1 - The goal of this is to help the team average out. It shouldn't matter if the host or an 'AAR' account gets the credit for work completed. Allow the host to decide.

#2 - You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't about the host getting a free computer, because it isn't free. Whatever machine they get will basically exist to: Eat up energy, take up space and run a distributed client 24/7. I don't see how this is in any way whatsoever 'free'. It's not like the host will be getting the machine to play with as a hobby box or gaming machine. They will have it for the sole purpose of having it as a distributed computing machine. And unless the host gets the credit for work done, hosting the machine is nothing more than an annoyance.

#3 - By the time the host 'owns' the machine it will hold little to no actual value.

Like I said, I see zero incentive to particpate in this unless the host gets credit for work done.

I don't know why this is such a big question, honestly. Just let the person hosting the machine decide where they want credit to go. It really doesn't matter because as I said before, the team will get the credit for the work done no matter what.
( Last edited by Lateralus; Aug 26, 2004 at 01:21 AM. )
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reader50
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:08 AM
 
Oh, a note. Why should crunched units go into a separate account until the Host inherits the box? If the Host ever decides to leave Team MacNN, the units crunched on donated parts before the Host inherits the box should remain. If those units go into the Host's regular account, things get strange.

Of course, we are such nice people here that no one would ever leave. So this is a hypothetical scenario.

For reference, most people "leave" by losing interest in DC. Their accounts become inactive while they persue other persuits in life. At any given time, over two thirds of our members are in this category.

A few have left to other teams for assorted personal reasons. For example, Welnic moved units on one project to his work team - his co-workers thought it proper since the units were crunched on their work machines. Tigerrabbit left (I think) because she got modded in the Lounge about something. For most who actually leave, I never hear the reason.
     
Lateralus
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:18 AM
 
Good points. But there needs to be some sort of compromise. Forcing the host to donate all work completed to a massive team account removes all personal incentive to participate, and personal incentive is definitely a necessity. And not allowing the host to credit completed work to their own account until the machine is old and obsolete is not a good enough compromise.
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Scotttheking
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:31 AM
 
Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
Forcing the host to donate all work completed to a massive team account removes all personal incentive to participate, and personal incentive is definitely a necessity. And not allowing the host to credit completed work to their own account until the machine is old and obsolete is not a good enough compromise.
Forcing the original parts owner (for lack of a better term) to give all work to another user removes most incentive to participate, by virtue of them 'giving away' their equipment for someone else's gain, as opposed to multiple people each giving something to make a functional and powered on system that contributes to the team.


I feel the goal of this should be to pair machines with people who are able to run them, for the good of the team and science, instead of the individual. The person hosting is a caretaker, who is supposed to watch the machine, keep it running, and let it crunch, for the team. I know I wouldn't want to use my accounts, as they bounce around from team to team occasionally. If I'm a host, I see it as someone else is donating the parts, I'm donating the power. The box crunches for the team.
Otherwise, the project is little more than donating machines to those who have room, so that they can get personal account gain. I've got some older class hardware that I could toss into this pile, but I'm not going to give it to someone else for their account.

That's my opinion, as written at 1:30am. I'll see if it's still coherent in the morning.
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OneMacGuy
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Aug 26, 2004, 08:49 AM
 
Originally posted by reader50:
Ok, lets figure it up. Regardless of what Barbie says, math is your friend ... and figures never lie, right?

Assumptions
The typical box will be run headless.
Parts are 1-3 years old.
It will run 24/7 for 11 months out of the year. Time lost to downtime for misc reasons.
Power draw is 100W, but will actually vary from 75-125W depending on what CPU is used.
Power costs 11� per KWH, actual cost will vary by location.
Price to put together such a box with purchased parts: approx $300.
No A/C cooling needed. True in many locations, or true 11 months a year.

Box cost and power draw assumptions come from Scott. The 11� per KWH comes from my own bill in California.

The Figures
100 W
x 24 Hours
= 2.4 KWH per day
x 30 Days
= 72 KWH per month
x $0.11 per KWH
= $7.92 per month
x 11 months
= $87.12 per year.

If you rerun the calculations based on actual CPU, but leave the power cost the same, it works out like this:

75W (Older P3) Box = $65.34 per year.
100W (Midrange) Box = $87.12 per year.
125W (Newer P4) Box = $108.90 per year.

Analysis
Assuming such a box costs $300 to obtain the normal way, the Host is getting a steal. Pay for the power and end up owning the box in two years, at just over half price. You'd have to assume a power cost of 19� per KWH for it to cost $300 in two years, or you have to assume you'll end up being donated mostly high end P4s.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the team to get the crunched units until the Host inherits the box. Still, a compromise. Suppose the Host inherits the box in 18 months, at that power cost of $130.68, the Host would get the box at just under 44% of cost. That's a pretty darn good deal for helping out the team by loaning out some space.
I don'tunderstand the assumption that AC is not required. I live in Georgia, the home of high humidity and hot springs, summers and falls. I have to run my AC 9-10 months a year, the whole house, not just some rooms. When I run a lot of computers in one room, like my workroom, it is noticeable hotter in that room than in others and requires more cooling and thus electricity to cool it. If you add $80 to $100 woth of heat to a cooled space, I assume you can expect to pay at least half of that much to remove it, right?

The power consumption per CPU seems a little low, when I build new and/or used systems I have found that a 250 watt PS is not adequate, I need at least 300 Watts, where does all that extra power go, maybe to heat?

The price for assembling a new rig, around $300. These are not new rigs but rigs built from older used parts. Let's try half that or $150.

We are getting awfully close to value received for given.

All that said, I really do not care how credit is apportioned since I will not host any rigs. I will contribute parts, but I will avoid the frying pan and the fire.

How do other teams address this issue?
     
Zimmerman  (op)
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Aug 26, 2004, 10:19 AM
 
Its not an issue of value recieved. Its an issue of going slightly farther than your average cruncher in your contribution to the research programme. Additionally, if it were up to me, I would mandate that all the machines be doing nothing but Folding @ Home so in terms of who gets the project, there is plenty of debate.

The beauty of having a required client and a dedicated project account for the adopt-a-rig b0x3n is so that if need be, the entire project's crunching power can be diverted to projects where we are in danger of being overtaken. In fact, the more I think about this the more inclined I am to make it part of the rules over allowing the Host to keep the work unit.

This project is NOT about personal ego, so I shouldn't matter that the Host doesn't get the points, just so long as Team MacNN does. Its not a value proposition since the intent is to support the scientific research and to support the Team. ALL OTHER CONCERNS ARE LESS THAN SECONDARY.

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Scotttheking
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Aug 26, 2004, 11:19 AM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
How do other teams address this issue?
Single or multiple team accounts. Usually one account per host location. Each account is for all donated machines at that location.

For your 300W PS systems, it's usually poorer PSUs, or a lot of devices in the system. A crunch box isn't going to have a powerful video card, optical drives, and other fancy things that many desktops have.
I provided much of the power info based on what my power meter reads as being drawn from the wall.
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reader50
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:18 PM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
...
The price for assembling a new rig, around $300. These are not new rigs but rigs built from older used parts. Let's try half that or $150.
...
I used a price figure from Scott, but you have to be correct about that. The boxes in question aren't worth as much as a new crunch box. Also, PowerMacMan pointed out that the box's value falls with time (depreciation), something I didn't properly figure for. Based on that, the Host would have to inherit sooner to get full value for their electricity - but then the host is only donating tech support and space.

The no A/C assumption is a practical one, it costs too muct to a Host to do this in consistently hot areas of the country - unless they get the A/C for free in some fashion.

For some reason, I was thinking in terms of small hosted farms, say six boxes. Not too impressive, but using the power calculations, that would add $50 a month to the power bill. Personally, that's as far as I'd want to go. If someone hosted 100 boxes, it runs up $700+ a month in electricity. I'd imagine this is why FreeDC went with three Hydra locations rather than one big one.

It would be better to have Hosts in places with dirt-cheap electricty and little or no cooling requirements. If I recall correctly, the TVA has some of the cheapest power anywhere in the USA, that might allow a single hosted farm big enough to make a dent by itself.
     
OneMacGuy
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Aug 26, 2004, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Zimmerman:
Its not an issue of value recieved. Its an issue of going slightly farther than your average cruncher in your contribution to the research programme. Additionally, if it were up to me, I would mandate that all the machines be doing nothing but Folding @ Home so in terms of who gets the project, there is plenty of debate.

The beauty of having a required client and a dedicated project account for the adopt-a-rig b0x3n is so that if need be, the entire project's crunching power can be diverted to projects where we are in danger of being overtaken. In fact, the more I think about this the more inclined I am to make it part of the rules over allowing the Host to keep the work unit.

This project is NOT about personal ego, so I shouldn't matter that the Host doesn't get the points, just so long as Team MacNN does. Its not a value proposition since the intent is to support the scientific research and to support the Team. ALL OTHER CONCERNS ARE LESS THAN SECONDARY.
This is a very altruistic approach to DC projects. If it were not for the competition aspect, I suspect that they would pretty much not work at all. It is the competition that drives these projects, not the desire to help humanity. I believe in what the projects do or I would not be in them, that is why I quit SETI, it is a waste of time and resources in my opinion. I am glad that our competition helps a worthy cause, but how many of us would put nearly as much effort into this if it were not for the competition?
     
OneMacGuy
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Aug 27, 2004, 11:10 AM
 
just because we have some disagreements. I am willing to go along with whatever you guys decide. I think that this is a good idea and that we should go ahead with it.

You guys decide and I will play along like a nice liitle boy and keep my mouth shut. I will still donate to the program and I do have a lot of stuff that will help that I am willing to throw int the pot. :-P
     
[APi]TheMan
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Aug 27, 2004, 07:38 PM
 
I guess I missed the debate these last few days, but I'd still like to get my 2 cents in. I don't have the capacity to take in a rig personally, but I am down to donate spare parts when I have them lying around and a few bucks here and there when I can part with a few.

I must have missed the poll, but I think that if you're paying for hosting a rig locally then you should receive the work units that machine completes. Part costs will be distributed among several doners, but the main cost comes down to the energy and upkeep of the machine (not to mention time spent configuring, installing, and working with hardware and software on the rig).

As far as projects that the rigs should participate in, I am partial to folding@home as well, but I think it should be up to the hoster as long as it's not some crappy project that we'll be wasting processor time in. I do like the idea of being able to shift on the fly to address threats in other project.

Yeah, cooling's a pain in the neck. Northern California during the summer is toasty and I'm a poor college student that would rather spend money on toys than air conditioning, so my machines are always pretty warm. I'm wrestling with cooling my new XP 2500+ PC as we speak... my case and power supply are physically limiting.

Good work, guys.
"In Nomine Patris, Et Fili, Et Spiritus Sancti"

     
jarling
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Sep 1, 2004, 05:13 PM
 
Boy, I've been gone for too long. I'm glad Reader50 didnt include me in his list of deserters.

Now that we've hammered through the easy stuff , I think we can all agree that we should run Ubero. That way all interests are unhappy and no project factions emerge. But even more important, like Free-DC's Hydra, is coming up with a cool name for the (potentially various) host(s).
     
reader50
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Sep 1, 2004, 09:41 PM
 
Looks like the Hosts would have to inherit in 12 months, and donors can of course send parts outside of the program, much as Zimmerman has been doing.

jarling has a good point, using "Hydra" would look like we are ripping off Free-DC.

Conquest Station
Bases (ie - Team MacNN Western Base, Team MacNN Mississippi Base)
Crunch Cores
Crunch Corps
Crusher
Cannons.

For some reason, I'm mostly thinking of names that start with 'C'. odd

Battleships (ie - Battleship East, or host picks a name - the Battleship Cubicleville)
Tanks (some people have think tanks, we have Crunch Tanks)
     
reader50
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Sep 2, 2004, 12:59 PM
 
Power Cores (with apologies to UT)
     
Lateralus
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Sep 2, 2004, 01:23 PM
 
Dreadnought.
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
Zimmerman  (op)
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Sep 2, 2004, 03:27 PM
 
Originally posted by PowerMacMan:
Dreadnought.
Or, DreadNNought

Donate your spare cycles - join TeamNN today!
Remember to check the Marketplace!
     
Chinasaur
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Sep 2, 2004, 06:47 PM
 
iClusters?
iMac - Late 2015 iMac, 32GB RAM
MacBook - 2010 MacBook, 1TB SSD, 16GB RAM
     
mikkyo
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Sep 2, 2004, 06:55 PM
 
     
OneMacGuy
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Sep 2, 2004, 07:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Chinasaur:
iClusters?
I like it! Very Applelike! Maybe we should trademark it before Apple does.
     
Zimmerman  (op)
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Sep 2, 2004, 08:44 PM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
I like it! Very Applelike! Maybe we should trademark it before Apple does.
NO! I use my one time Line Item Veto. Friggin iShit... *grumbles like a crochity old man*


(I'm kiddin' guys. I don't have a line item veto. Just a .45 )

Donate your spare cycles - join TeamNN today!
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reader50
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Sep 2, 2004, 08:46 PM
 
I need to get out more. The first things that came to mind:

1) iClusters. Now with more peanuts and milk chocolate.

2) eyeClusters. Found on the better aliens.

#2 isn't such a bad reference. Other teams beware, we have an iCluster watching you.
     
[APi]TheMan
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Sep 6, 2004, 12:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimmerman:
Or, DreadNNought
Touch�: MacNNought!
"In Nomine Patris, Et Fili, Et Spiritus Sancti"

     
OneMacGuy
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Sep 23, 2004, 12:46 PM
 
Originally posted by [APi]TheMan:
Touch�: MacNNought!
So, are we letting this die? Come one guys, we can do this thing. I can contribute parts and expertise, but I can't run it. Surely someone else can pick this up and run with it.
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[APi]TheMan
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Sep 25, 2004, 06:42 PM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
So, are we letting this die? Come one guys, we can do this thing. I can contribute parts and expertise, but I can't run it. Surely someone else can pick this up and run with it.
Unfortunately I think this is the case. I can't take on any more computers... Maybe when I live alone or have my own home and nice job to pay for air conditioning and electricity. Damn, my poor Powerbook already idles at 51� C... 64� C when crunching, I just don't think it's healthy.

I am down to contribute parts as well, I work at a techshop and I can snag old 6 - 10 gig drives, RAM, processors...
"In Nomine Patris, Et Fili, Et Spiritus Sancti"

     
reader50
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Sep 25, 2004, 08:43 PM
 
I can host starting next month, up to six boxes. That would add approx 1 KW to the electric bill. Ambient temps around here are dropping, and will be tolerable by next month.

The tricky part? Work will get busy again, starting the first of next month, lasting 6-8 weeks (estimate). I'm trying to get the new project stats running before then.

So although space, noise, and electricity allow hosting, there doesn't appear to be time for setup and debugging until later in November.
( Last edited by reader50; Sep 25, 2004 at 08:51 PM. )
     
OneMacGuy
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Sep 25, 2004, 09:31 PM
 
Originally posted by reader50:
I can host starting next month, up to six boxes. That would add approx 1 KW to the electric bill. Ambient temps around here are dropping, and will be tolerable by next month.

The tricky part? Work will get busy again, starting the first of next month, lasting 6-8 weeks (estimate). I'm trying to get the new project stats running before then.

So although space, noise, and electricity allow hosting, there doesn't appear to be time for setup and debugging until later in November.
What set of rules are we gonna adopt? I don't really care which ones, just print them up.

If you are gonna host the first six, let me know, I will send you some parts. What do you need top get started?
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the_glassman
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Sep 26, 2004, 11:49 PM
 
I can host a few if needed.
     
reader50
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Sep 28, 2004, 02:07 AM
 
Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
What set of rules are we gonna adopt? I don't really care which ones, just print them up.
...
I don't know what rules we will adopt, there is a shortage of people posting feedback. Out of our ~2,000 unique members across the projects, only 10 have participated so far.

For my own hosting, until we agree on rules, this is what I propose as a host. My rules list is rather team-friendly; from the posted feedback, it is very possible the rules we agree on in the end will be more friendly to the hosts.
  • Donated components become the property of the Team. If a donor suddenly needs part(s) back, the Team may make an exception, but is not obligated to do so.
  • Systems composed primarily of donated parts will crunch on a separate team account for at least one year.
  • A year after each component is donated, the Host may inherit that component at any time at the Host's option.
  • Until the year is up, the donated components remain property of the team, and should not be used for personal purposes - ie, gaming.
  • The program Coordinator and the Host should keep a list of parts and the date of donation, so it is clear what the team owns at any given time and arguements do not occur. Ideally, the Coordinator's master list should be accessible online - a thread perhaps, or a private page on the team site.
  • If the cluster is offline for more than a few days at a time, the Host is responsible for posting some update so other team members know what's going on. This is only fair to those who donated components.
  • If the Host can no longer host for an unreasonably long period of time, then the Host is responsible for shipping the team components to alternate Host(s).
  • Host provides space, electricity, broadband internet connection, and cooling/heating as needed.
  • Host will handle incidental maintenance.
  • Host is not responsible for major maintenance - ie: major component failures. Maybe I'd obtain replacement(s), but it's not guaranteed.
  • Host will handle setup as possible - I'll probably need some help to start with (cough)scott(cough) on a Linux setup, since I've never done one. The teamstats servers run Debian Linux and I've done CLI maintenance on various matters, but I've never done serious OS-side work, such as installation.
  • Donated systems will crunch on projects determined by the team leaders, based on general interest of the members.
  • The Host, at his/her option, may limit project changes to once per 30 days. ie - 30 days will pass after a project switch before the Host is obligated to make another switch. The Host may accept more frequent switches at the Host's option, but this does not change the Host's right to limit switches to once per 30 days.
  • The Host may limit cluster systems to crunching on one project at a time. ie - the Host could be requested to assign half the systems to Folding and the other half to Climate, but the Host is not obligated to do such a split.
This list does not cover every possibility. If something important has been missed, please post. Or revise Zimmerman's proposed rules set. Ideas are welcome.

Originally posted by OneMacGuy:
...
If you are gonna host the first six, let me know, I will send you some parts. What do you need to get started?
Unfortunately, I can't set anything up before work eases again, and I'd rather not sit on donated parts. We really need a Coordinator like Zimmerman to match lists of available parts with Hosts, otherwise we'll end up with extra parts that sit idle, or need to be reshipped to a different host. A coordinated matching has the added advantage of minimizing the number of shipments.

I'll pass on donated parts until I can do something with them. For reference, I have:
Space in an unoccupied room used as a library.
Assorted spare shelving components. I'll make it work.
Plenty of power strips.
(1) old spare VGA monitor (faded display) capable of 640x480.
(0) PC mice / keyboards, unless my Mac or ADB stuff can work on x86 boxes. I can buy an x86 keyboard & mouse if needed.
(1) DSL line rated at 1500/256 Kb/s, measured at 150/20 KB/s.
(0) Router, switch, or hub. I plan to buy these, along with ethernet cables or cable + crimp tool. Radio Shack is nearby.
(0) PC cases or power supplies. How expensive are the cases? Alternatively, I can set up bare motherboards in some kind of frame like jbcool did. The only sources of electronic interference in the room are some flourescent lights on the opposite side of the room.
(2) sticks of 64MB PC100.
Assorted older (and small) SIMMs / DIMMs, probably worthless.
(2) older Mac video cards. 1 PCI, 1 AGP.
(1) 10 GB ATA HD.
Several older baby SCSI drives - the largest might be 120 MB.
Several office-type power cords.

Yes, let's not let this thread die. We can link it from the team site to increase the traffic. And we still need a cluster name. Fort <s>Knocks</s> Kickdowndoor anyone?

Edit: fixed my DSL info. No, I'm not downloading at 150 MB/s and uploading at 20 MB/s unfortunately.
( Last edited by reader50; Sep 28, 2004 at 11:10 PM. )
     
OneMacGuy
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Sep 29, 2004, 02:01 PM
 
Originally posted by reader50:
[B]I don't know what rules we will adopt, there is a shortage of people posting feedback. Out of our ~2,000 unique members across the projects, only 10 have participated so far.

For my own hosting, until we agree on rules, this is what I propose as a host. My rules list is rather team-friendly; from the posted feedback, it is very possible the rules we agree on in the end will be more friendly to the hosts.
  • Donated components become the property of the Team. If a donor suddenly needs part(s) back, the Team may make an exception, but is not obligated to do so.
  • Systems composed primarily of donated parts will crunch on a separate team account for at least one year.
  • A year after each component is donated, the Host may inherit that component at any time at the Host's option.
  • Until the year is up, the donated components remain property of the team, and should not be used for personal purposes - ie, gaming.
  • The program Coordinator and the Host should keep a list of parts and the date of donation, so it is clear what the team owns at any given time and arguements do not occur. Ideally, the Coordinator's master list should be accessible online - a thread perhaps, or a private page on the team site.
  • If the cluster is offline for more than a few days at a time, the Host is responsible for posting some update so other team members know what's going on. This is only fair to those who donated components.
  • If the Host can no longer host for an unreasonably long period of time, then the Host is responsible for shipping the team components to alternate Host(s).
  • Host provides space, electricity, broadband internet connection, and cooling/heating as needed.
  • Host will handle incidental maintenance.
  • Host is not responsible for major maintenance - ie: major component failures. Maybe I'd obtain replacement(s), but it's not guaranteed.
  • Host will handle setup as possible - I'll probably need some help to start with (cough)scott(cough) on a Linux setup, since I've never done one. The teamstats servers run Debian Linux and I've done CLI maintenance on various matters, but I've never done serious OS-side work, such as installation.
  • Donated systems will crunch on projects determined by the team leaders, based on general interest of the members.
  • The Host, at his/her option, may limit project changes to once per 30 days. ie - 30 days will pass after a project switch before the Host is obligated to make another switch. The Host may accept more frequent switches at the Host's option, but this does not change the Host's right to limit switches to once per 30 days.
  • The Host may limit cluster systems to crunching on one project at a time. ie - the Host could be requested to assign half the systems to Folding and the other half to Climate, but the Host is not obligated to do such a split.
This list does not cover every possibility. If something important has been missed, please post. Or revise Zimmerman's proposed rules set. Ideas are welcome.


Unfortunately, I can't set anything up before work eases again, and I'd rather not sit on donated parts. We really need a Coordinator like Zimmerman to match lists of available parts with Hosts, otherwise we'll end up with extra parts that sit idle, or need to be reshipped to a different host. A coordinated matching has the added advantage of minimizing the number of shipments.
What about the numero uno most contentious issue? Who gets the points for the work done? Did we decide to put them all in a team account? Whateva, just spell it out and I will follow. I also will donate plenty of parts to whoever wants to start keeping the stuff. I have everything but motherboards, memory and processors. (Actually I have quite a few older sticks of memory such as 8, 16 and some 32 MB sticks of SDRAM, different speeds)
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reader50
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Sep 29, 2004, 02:06 PM
 
By "crunch for a separate team account", I had meant the units would go to a team account, which would stay with the team.

Note, this is not a resolution to the issue. It's just what I would do as a Host.
     
 
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