[undotwa]

Originally Posted by SVass

Let us see. When the Christians recaptured Hungary from the Ottomans, they imported Catholics and gave them all of the trades! Then they imported Jews from Alasace. After the 30 years war (and murder of more Jews) they left the Protestants under control of their appointed landlords and wed to the land and gave Catholics the right to all import and export business. Jews were allowed one child per family. What you seem to forget is that demagogs of every group incite hatred of "them" in order to enhance their own popularity. There is very little difference between Sadaam Hussein and George Bush. sam

You should keep in mind that these secular rulers persecuted adherents of other creeds because it was these adherents which were more likely to rebel and establish their own rival kingdom, especially during the 30 years war.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno

God, another "all Muslims hate Christianity because of this one incident" thread.

I suppose you're now going to say that you're so much better for being a Christian, and that you're not the same as those Muslim dogs?

Certainly not all, but certainly a lot in these countries do in fact hate Christians.

[Albert Pujols]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Death in war is a free pass in according to the false prophet, right?
You're a "double muslim" in muslim heaven if you take someone with you.
This can be easily accomplished with the ever stylish explod-o-vest.
72 virgins not included.

Oh, we left out the moorish push through Europe.

That's ridiculous. Any Muslim who commits suicide goes straight to hell. That statement is as ignorant as the suicide bomber who believes he will go to heaven by killing himself and others.

I don't know why Christians feel they have to convert people of other religions. I think people should decide for themselves whether they want to convert to another religion. But that's my opinion.

[Zimphire]

I think bubblewrap was just baiting.

Of course it's open to discussion though.

[christ]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Really? You have no clue, or even a guess as to who judges who goes to heaven?

None? Zero? Zip?

Or are you just being purposely dense so you can troll some more?


And I will answer you again.

It's not up to me. Ask they fellah that makes the decisions.

Don't like that answer? Too bad.

See right there is the problem "the fellah that makes the decisions".

This "fellah" is a different chap in the different religions (he shares a name, or cipher, or whatever, but he is definitely a different chap), and in each case (obfuscation notwithstanding) He only chooses players from the home team. Christianity is pretty clear that the only way a non-Christian can get to heaven is by converting to Christianity.

I think that most people tend towards the simple answer, to quote undotwa: "No."

[back on topic]
The fact that Church and state are entwined in Iran makes apostasy equal treason. I believe that you still have the death penalty for treason in the USA don't you? This is, for me, a good reason to keep Church and state separate.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

No one can deny, though, that the Koran says things (to parphrase) such as take no Jew or Christian as a friend,

Wrong. It says that you should not take them as patrons(guardians).

they are to be subjugated and humiliated,

And of course you can provide the verse for that?

they are denizens of hellfire,

BS. The People of the Book should be respected.

o Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, take that rock and kill him. . .

Not the Quran, but a Hadith. Muslims know that you shouldn't take the Hadiths as 100% truth since it's not the word of God.

Oh, and regarding dhimmi's. Have you ever heard of the Visigothic code? Or the Fourth Council of the Lateran?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by undotwa

I'm not going to blame anyone or any faith but the Crusades were primarily a defence mechanism against the onslaught of Islamic expansion. The Moslems afterall had almost completely overrun Spain and were marching into Southern France; The Eastern Roman Empire suffered defeat after defeat from Moslems; Egypt and Turkey already conquered etc.

Compare how Christians and Jews lived under the Moors to how the Moors and Jews lived under the Christians. The Visigothic Code is always a good start. The Fourth Council of the Lateran is also good to read.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by christ

Not to me.

Muslims seem to think that only Muslims are eligible for heaven, Christians seem to think that only Christians are eligible for heaven, Jews seem to think that only Jews are eligible for heaven.

I am wondering if that is an accurate reflection, but it seems that the simple question leads to sophistry rather than answers.

So I'll try again: Are Muslims eligible to go to heaven? (without conversion from Islam)

You must have never taken a class on comparative religion. If you did, you would know that Jews believe that everyone is eligible for Heaven, and that while Jews have to follow 613 commandments, non-Jews need only follow 7 commandments in order to enter Heaven.

Those laws are:
Avodah Zarah: Prohibition on idolatry.
Birchat HaShem: Prohibition on blasphemy and cursing the Name of G-d.
Shefichat Damim: Prohibition on murder.
Gezel: Prohibition on robbery and theft.
Gilui Arayot: Prohibition on immorality and forbidden sexual relations.
Ever Min HaChay: Prohibition on removing and eating a limb from a live animal.
Dinim: Requirement to establish a justice system and courts of law to enforce the other 6 laws.

Men and women are equal in their responsibility to observe the Seven Universal Laws.

[Zimphire]

Wow there are a lot of people in here that need to go do some studying on other religions before they start "arguing" in here and make fools out of themselves.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Wow there are a lot of people in here that need to go do some studying on other religions before they start "arguing" in here and make fools out of themselves.

A certain heathen came to Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he repulsed him with the rod which was in his hand. When he went to Hillel, he said to him, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by undotwa

The primary point of this office is to define heretical teachings. Heresy never stopped, half of Catholics are heretics . It's a good thing people aren't still being punished for heresy.

Half of us are heretics? Would you elaborate on that please?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Compare how Christians and Jews lived under the Moors to how the Moors and Jews lived under the Christians. The Visigothic Code is always a good start. The Fourth Council of the Lateran is also good to read.

Moors and Jews lived just fine in Spain after 1492 provided they became Catholics. The practicioners of Islam and Judaeism, well that's another story

Don't confuse religion with race and culture.

Also remember it was called Reconquista for a good reason.

[christ]

Originally Posted by vmarks

... Jews believe that everyone is eligible for Heaven, and that while Jews have to follow 613 commandments, non-Jews need only follow 7 commandments in order to enter Heaven...

... so the easiest way for a Jew to get into heaven is to stop being a Jew, and then the other 606 commandments don't apply?

Zimph - I realise that :

Originally Posted by Zimph

Wow there are a lot of people in here that need to go do some studying on other religions before they start "arguing" in here and make fools out of themselves.

wasn't aimed at me, but (in common with those that it was aimed at) I will only learn at your feet if you answer my questions - if you don't answer, and only make clever comments, all I (we) can do is stand back and admire your wit and skill, but not learn from your vast store of knowledge on all things.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by christ

... so the easiest way for a Jew to get into heaven is to stop being a Jew, and then the other 606 commandments don't apply?

You can't stop being a Jew.

[christ]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You can't stop being a Jew.

That brings us right back to the apostasy thing. Muslims appear to be saying that you can't stop being a Muslim (on pain of death).

Why can't you stop being a Jew?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by christ

That brings us right back to the apostasy thing. Muslims appear to be saying that you can't stop being a Muslim (on pain of death).

Why can't you stop being a Jew?

Because you're born one, and cannot change what you're born as. Or you convert to one after having been advised and directed not to at least three times, and then you enter into a years-long study in order to make sure that this is the right decision and that the you know what you're getting into. Only after all this can you become a Jew.

As for Jews who decide to practice some other religion, they are still regarded as Jews, but Judaism has no punishment for them. One of the questions Rabbis talk about is who is more righteous, the Jew who practices or the Jew who doesn't practice but does good works in the community at large.

Iran under Islamic Law has the death penalty for Apostasy, and it's not only done in Iran, but Egypt also punishes for apostasy. The punishment itself for the crime of Apostasy is not named in the Quran, but is instead in Hadith.

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

*********** "Narrated Abdullah:* Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases:* in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by christ

That brings us right back to the apostasy thing. Muslims appear to be saying that you can't stop being a Muslim (on pain of death).

Why can't you stop being a Jew?

The Muslims are saying that they won't allow you to stop being a Muslim. In Judaism, you can't be punished for it because you can't do it (much as you can't turn into a bird or a rock).

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Compare how Christians and Jews lived under the Moors to how the Moors and Jews lived under the Christians. The Visigothic Code is always a good start. The Fourth Council of the Lateran is also good to read.

The treatment of Christians and Jews under the Moors is not necessarily indicative of the treatment of Jews or Christians in other parts of the Arab world. Ponder this: Turkey (I'm speaking far east of Constantinople) used to have an enourmas Christian population, but when the Moslems came in the 10th century it disappeared. As well, Egypt used to be a bastion of Christian learning and scholarship, (especially Alexandria) - the Christian population was persecuted to its meagre state today.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by christ

[back on topic]
The fact that Church and state are entwined in Iran makes apostasy equal treason. I believe that you still have the death penalty for treason in the USA don't you? This is, for me, a good reason to keep Church and state separate.

I can't imagine the Church and State ever being entwined in Iran

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Half of us are heretics? Would you elaborate on that please?

Not all Catholics such as us are utterly orthodox when it comes to teachings of the Church, especially on regards to contraception, abortion, the sacraments, pre-marital sex etc. The Office of the Inquisition doesn't usually investigate such cases as this, but rather when outspoken 'Catholic' theologians speak against the official dogmata of the Catholic Church.

Any Catholic who disagrees with a teaching of the Catholic Church is in the state of latae sentiae, or 'ipso facto' excommunication.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Moors and Jews lived just fine in Spain after 1492 provided they became Catholics. The practicioners of Islam and Judaeism, well that's another story

Don't confuse religion with race and culture.

Also remember it was called Reconquista for a good reason.

Sort of like Operation Iraqi Freedom then

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by undotwa

The treatment of Christians and Jews under the Moors is not necessarily indicative of the treatment of Jews or Christians in other parts of the Arab world. Ponder this: Turkey (I'm speaking far east of Constantinople) used to have an enourmas Christian population, but when the Moslems came in the 10th century it disappeared. As well, Egypt used to be a bastion of Christian learning and scholarship, (especially Alexandria) - the Christian population was persecuted to its meagre state today.

You mean sort of like the Jewish and Muslim populations in Europe(Spain most notably) then?

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Moors and Jews lived just fine in Spain after 1492 provided they became Catholics.

Umm, not really actually.

The Office of the Inquisition was misused in Spain to condemn convert Jews and Moslems who still practiced their former religion. I emphasize misused, because the Inquisition has a purpose and it is not an evil office. Some men misused the office to increase their power and stranglehold over the kingdom (as was done in Spain).

[von Wrangell]

undotwa:

Have you read the Visigothic code or the Fourth Council of the Lateran?

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You mean sort of like the Jewish and Muslim populations in Europe(Spain most notably) then?

It really depends what kingdom and at what time you are speaking about. Some parts of Europe were very anti-semitic whiles others only 'passively persecuted' non-Christians. Persecution rarely was systematic in Europe (after all, that would waste too many resources).

Europeans are not really the most tolerant culture even into this 'liberal' day and age. One needs to look no further than the Netherlands, France or Germany to see what I mean.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

undotwa:

Have you read the Visigothic code or the Fourth Council of the Lateran?

The Visigothic code is not an example of Christianity at its height, which I have read.


The Fourth Lateran Council is not a single document, it is a whole series of documents among which some are excessively lengthy. Upon your questioning, I looked at a summary from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09018a.htm

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by undotwa

It really depends what kingdom and at what time you are speaking about. Some parts of Europe were very anti-semitic whiles others only 'passively persecuted' non-Christians. Persecution rarely was systematic in Europe (after all, that would waste too many resources).

Europeans are not really the most tolerant culture even into this 'liberal' day and age. One needs to look no further than the Netherlands, France or Germany to see what I mean.

Not systematic?

As early as 1096 an army of 10 thousand men went in the opposite direction of Jerusalem(which was the target for the first Crusade) and headed into the Rhein valley and went northward through it to specifically target the Jewish population there.

if you don't call that organised then please do elaborate on what in your opinion constitutes systemic persecutions.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by undotwa

The Visigothic code is not an example of Christianity at its height, which I have read.


The Fourth Lateran Council is not a single document, it is a whole series of documents among which some are excessively lengthy. Upon your questioning, I looked at a summary from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09018a.htm

Here's the Visigothic Code(check the 12th chapter especially):

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm

And here's the 12th Ecumenical Council(4th Lateran Council)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

Read Canons 67-70.

What was it you said again about no systematic persecution of Jews?

ps. Muslims were most of the time treated the same way as Jews in Europe.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Not systematic?

As early as 1096 an army of 10 thousand men went in the opposite direction of Jerusalem(which was the target for the first Crusade) and headed into the Rhein valley and went northward through it to specifically target the Jewish population there.

if you don't call that organised then please do elaborate on what in your opinion constitutes systemic persecutions.

There are systematic cases like this which happened during the Crusades (BTW - the Pope made a public apology a few years ago for the crimes Catholics committed under God's name during the Crusades), but they are few in number and scattered in Christian history (The Crusades covered a period of 400 years I believe. The last crusade was in northern Europe). By that I say that these occurences are rare.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Here's the Visigothic Code(check the 12th chapter especially):

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm

And here's the 12th Ecumenical Council(4th Lateran Council)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

Read Canons 67-70.

What was it you said again about no systematic persecution of Jews?

ps. Muslims were most of the time treated the same way as Jews in Europe.

The Visigoths were a barbarous people who utilised the Church as an instrument of oppression. The Visigoths not only systematically oppressed the Jews, but they also oppressed the Spaniards, looting the country side keeping the peninsula in state of perpetual poverty. They were violent and uncivilised: rapists, murderist and torturers. They were culturally pagan - but nominally Catholic (even then, they only had just 'converted' from Arianism), probably only doing so because the Catholic Church had a more structured hierarchy which facilitated their goal of achieving as much spoils as possible.

Those referenced canons of the 4th Lateran Council merely refers to the segregation of Jews. It does not speak of any kind of persecution as such.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Here's the Visigothic Code(check the 12th chapter especially):

http://libro.uca.edu/vcode/visigoths.htm

And here's the 12th Ecumenical Council(4th Lateran Council)

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

Read Canons 67-70.

What was it you said again about no systematic persecution of Jews?

ps. Muslims were most of the time treated the same way as Jews in Europe.

The Visigoths were a barbarous people who utilised the Church as an instrument of oppression. The Visigoths not only systematically oppressed the Jews, but they also oppressed the Spaniards, looting the country side keeping the peninsula in state of perpetual poverty. They were violent and uncivilised: rapists, murderist and torturers. They were culturally pagan - but nominally Catholic (even then, they only had just 'converted' from Arianism), probably only doing so because the Catholic Church had a more structured hierarchy which facilitated their goal of achieving as much spoils as possible.

Those referenced canons of the 4th Lateran Council merely refers to the segregation of Jews. It does not speak of any kind of persecution as such.

p.s. I did not say that there was no systematic persecution of Jews, but it was rare. The visigothic code was written in the 7th century, and was binding not much further than that. The slaughter of the Jews and Moslems in Jerusalem (I admit, there was a slaughter) happened in the late 11th century. There was not much of systematic persecution in between the rule of the Visigoths and the massacre at Jerusalem. However, please don't interpret what I'm writing as if I'm claiming that persecution itself was rare. I'm sure throughout the Middle Ages Jews were spat on and treated less equally than Christians. But most of it was by no means systematic.

[christ]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Because you're born one, and cannot change what you're born as.

Interesting.

Who decides this?

Does this only apply to Judaism, or are there other things that one can arbitrarily claim to be 'born as'?

Why is it that you are not 'born a Muslim'?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by christ

Why is it that you are not 'born a Muslim'?

The reasoning is that you are supposed to be old enough to make that personal decision on your own.

Muslims consider children to be born without sin and then later in life(when they are old enough) they are supposed to take the shahada(declaration of faith) to make it public that they will live as Muslims.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The Muslims are saying that they won't allow you to stop being a Muslim. In Judaism, you can't be punished for it because you can't do it (much as you can't turn into a bird or a rock).

No, Jews are really seen as a race now. Much like Arabs.

While they cannot stop being Jewish, they can indeed stop practicing Judaism without fear of being killed for it.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by christ

Interesting.

Who decides this?

Does this only apply to Judaism, or are there other things that one can arbitrarily claim to be 'born as'?

Why is it that you are not 'born a Muslim'?

Jews are born Jews by virtue of having a Jewish mother. Judaism is carried matrilineally. There is no arbitrary claim.

Muslims believe all people are born Muslims and so-called converts to Islam are really returning rather than converting. The notion is that all people are born pure and "returning" to Islam is a return to that purity. ( http://muttaqun.com/reverts.html )

Of course, Jews are not born Muslims (as the Muslim might claim) because Jews are born of Jewish mothers and do not believe in Islam.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by undotwa

Umm, not really actually.

The Office of the Inquisition was misused in Spain to condemn convert Jews and Moslems who still practiced their former religion. I emphasize misused, because the Inquisition has a purpose and it is not an evil office. Some men misused the office to increase their power and stranglehold over the kingdom (as was done in Spain).

The purpose of the Spanish Inquisition under Fernando y Isabel was to purge the country of "former" muslims and jews, i.e. those who converted in name only. That was not misuse. That was its purpose. They succeded too.

Nevertheless there were instances of probable misuse where people were tried and tortured while innocent. That does not mean converted muslims and jews in Spain and Portugal were generally treated bad, because that is not the case at all.

This was the final part of the Reconqista. The reclaiming of the land that the Moors had violently and unjustly taken as their own.

[Weyland-Yutani]

@undotwa

The Visigoths were barbaric and oppressed the Spaniards? News to me. Christian in name only? More news to me.

They never had anything against Jews either. In fact they were genreally quite friendly with Jews. You are making things up.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

@undotwa

The Visigoths were barbaric and oppressed the Spaniards? News to me. Christian in name only? More news to me.

They never had anything against Jews either. In fact they were genreally quite friendly with Jews. You are making things up.

Have you read the Visigothic Code? I posted the link above.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Of course, Jews are not born Muslims (as the Muslim might claim) because Jews are born of Jewish mothers and do not believe in Islam.

But can a child really decide if it's Muslim, Christian or Jewish? It might be biologically Jewish(although that distinction is slowly disappearing), but the child cannot be religiously Jewish from the day it's born. Can it?

And your explanation of the reverts/converts is sort of correct. But they are only considered to be free of sin and hence would be allowed into Heaven. They aren't Muslims per se. But since we are all born free of sin and are all born good every child will be allowed into Heaven.

It's a small difference but still important to point it out.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

But can a child really decide if it's Muslim, Christian or Jewish? It might be biologically Jewish(although that distinction is slowly disappearing), but the child cannot be religiously Jewish from the day it's born. Can it?

And your explanation of the reverts/converts is sort of correct. But they are only considered to be free of sin and hence would be allowed into Heaven. They aren't Muslims per se. But since we are all born free of sin and are all born good every child will be allowed into Heaven.

It's a small difference but still important to point it out.

Jewish is Jewish, practicing or not. You try and make a distinction where there is none, whether by biology or age.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Have you read the Visigothic Code? I posted the link above.

I have.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Jewish is Jewish, practicing or not. You try and make a distinction where there is none, whether by biology or age.

So if my mother would have converted to Judaism before I was born I'd be Jewish not matter what?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I have.

And you still consider the Visigoths to have been quite friendly to the Jews?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So if my mother would have converted to Judaism before I was born I'm Jewish not matter what?

That depends upon the sect. Orthodox Judaism, for example, would say that you're not.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

So if my mother would have converted to Judaism before I was born I'm Jewish not matter what?

That's how it is, yes.

If your mother had committed herself to converting despite being dissuaded multiple times and committed to studying with a Rabbi for years to make sure she knew what she was converting to, and the Rabbi approved the conversion at the end of all that time, then she would be Jewish. You as the child of a Jew would also be Jewish.

It's worth noting that converts to Judaism are very determined to do so and very learned in Judaism before the conversion takes place- quite different from Islam where making the declaration of faith is all that's required for conversion to take place.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Millennium

That depends upon the sect. Orthodox Judaism, for example, would say that you're not.

Incorrect. If his mother had converted under the guidance and study of an Orthodox Rabbi, her child would be Jewish.

[Macrobat]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Moors and Jews lived just fine in Spain after 1492 provided they became Catholics. The practicioners of Islam and Judaeism, well that's another story

Don't confuse religion with race and culture.

Also remember it was called Reconquista for a good reason.

That was also under the auspices of King Philip of Spain - not the Catholic Church, as was the Spanish Inquisition, the attempted invasion of England by the Armada, etc.

Trying to attribute the Inquisition to the Church is far-fetched and ignorant. Pope Pius VI was actually in vehement [i]disagreement[i] with the practices of Philip's Inquisitors.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

That's how it is, yes.

If your mother had committed herself to converting despite being dissuaded multiple times and committed to studying with a Rabbi for years to make sure she knew what she was converting to, and the Rabbi approved the conversion at the end of all that time, then she would be Jewish. You as the child of a Jew would also be Jewish.

It's worth noting that converts to Judaism are very determined to do so and very learned in Judaism before the conversion takes place- quite different from Islam where making the declaration of faith is all that's required for conversion to take place.

So there is no choice for the children of female converts to Judaism. I get it. You are forced to be a Jew for your whole life because your mother converted.

Does that mean there are Jewish-Atheists, Jewish-Christians, Jewish-Muslims etc etc etc?

But from what you said the biological argument for calling Jews a race is non-existent.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And you still consider the Visigoths to have been quite friendly to the Jews?

I do. It is a question of eras. The Arian Visigoths were quite tolerant towards Jews. The Arian Visigoths were in power in Iberia from 429 AD and the document you are posting is from 654 AD. The Catholic Visigoths were less friedly to the Jews, but they reigned fur just about 50 years.

By the year 711 AD the Visigoths had been conquered more or less by the Moors. There is a 50 year period from the writing of the Visigothic code to the end of their reign in Ibera. There is no indication of persecution of Jews by the Visigoths before they had converted to Catholicism and written the Visigoth code in 654 AD.

50 years is not indicitive of the general attitude towards the Jews under the Visigoths of Iberia IMO. By 711 AD the Moors had taken over most of Iberia.

So yes, I am surprised that undotwa considers the Visigoths of Iberia as generally un-friendly to Jews when in reality it is quite the opposite.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Does that mean there are Jewish-Atheists, Jewish-Christians, Jewish-Muslims etc etc etc?

Yes. My father is a Jewish-Christian.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Macrobat

That was also under the auspices of King Philip of Spain - not the Catholic Church, as was the Spanish Inquisition, the attempted invasion of England by the Armada, etc.

Trying to attribute the Inquisition to the Church is far-fetched and ignorant. Pope Pius VI was actually in vehement disagreement with the practices of Philip's Inquisitors.

I know the history of Spain quite well and nowhere did I indicate or insinuate that the Spanish Inquisition was made under the supervision of the Holy See.

Also, it was Fernando II de Aragon who created the Spanish Inquisition, not Felipe II.