[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Can't handle the Bible stories?

There’s another story in the Bible where God commands mankind not to kill.

So what’s your point?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Pssst. hyteckit. Christians don't try to be just like god. Just fyi.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

There’s another story in the Bible where God commands mankind not to kill.

So what’s your point?

Point?

Don't really on the Bible for your morals as God in the Bible was a hypocrite who aborted millions of his children because it was the easier way out then living with his mistakes.

Even God aborted his children. He was too lame to live with his own mistakes and just took the easy way out.

[iMOTOR]

You’re not the first person to realize that the Holy Bible, if taken at face value, contains double standards regarding what God does and expects of mankind.

As a matter of fact, a central aspect for those who believe in and worship the Judeo-Christian God is trusting that the actions of God are made with divine wisdom not available to man.

Your assertion that “He was too lame to live with his own mistakes and just took the easy way out” is arbitrary considering the fact that in other threads, you scorn others for their belief in God.

[screener]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

BBC NEWS | Americas | US abortion doctor is shot dead

On a normal basis the man killed unborn babies that could have potentially survived outside the womb, and his family is calling his murder "an unspeakable tragedy"? It seems to me like his death will actually cause fewer deaths in the long run.

I just can't feel remorse for his death.

There's usually another side of a story.
Where will women go now? - Broadsheet - Salon.com

Susan Hill, President of the National Women's Health Foundation, who knew Dr. Tiller for over two decades and referred girls and women to his clinic, said in a phone interview, "We always sent the really tragic cases to Tiller." Those included women diagnosed with cancer who needed abortions to qualify for chemotherapy, women who learned late in their pregnancies that their wanted babies had fatal illnesses, and rape victims so young they didn't realize they were pregnant for months. "We sent him 11-year-olds, 12-year-olds who were way too far along for anybody [else] to see," said Hill. "Eleven-year-olds don't tell anybody. Sometimes they don't even know they've had a period."

The walls of the clinic reception and waiting room are literally covered with letters from patients thanking him. Some were heartbreaking -- obviously young and/or poorly educated people thanking Dr. Tiller for being there when they had no other options, explaining their family, church, etc. had abandoned them."

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

As a matter of fact, a central aspect for those who believe in and worship the Judeo-Christian God is trusting that the actions of God are made with divine wisdom not available to man.

That's always one of the handiest and most convenient retorts that believers throw out when they don't have an answer. We know that god has a plan, but we can't tell you what it is, yet we know it exists, even though we have no way of knowing what it is. It's called circular logic, which uses one fallacy to support another.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

A large component of terrorism is targeting the innocent (or at least delivering punishments wildly disproportionate to the alleged crimes of the individual victims, as a threat to their colleagues). In this case the perpetrator no doubt saw the only victim as a mass-murderer, which would make this vigilante justice, not terrorism. IMO.

Is not one of the goals to use the fear of murder to stop doctors from performing abortions?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

@Uncle
The question of whether or not it is terrorism is not linked to the deed at all. Assassinations are a standard method in terrorist warfare. The difference is whether the perp acted with the support of a group. If the answer is `yes' (and I haven't heard that this has been conclusively answered either way), then it's an act of terrorism. If the answer is `no' and the suspected murder acted on his own, then it's not.

Reading the responses of some in this forum, I'd say that the killer certainly has some support for murdering abortion clinic doctors.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Pssst. hyteckit. Christians don't try to be just like god. Just fyi.

No, they try to be good Christians and follow the 10 commandments and the teachings of the Bible, with Jesus Christ as their spiritual leader.

What would Jesus do?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Is not one of the goals to use the fear of murder to stop doctors from performing abortions?

I'm sure that was one of the goals. Dr. Tiller normally is accompany by bodyguards when he goes to his clinic, because of death threats. I'm sure he felt terrorized by some right-wing anti-abortion groups.

[Arty50]

"The world is grey, Jack."

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I think we can all agree that:

- late term abortion is morally reprehensible

What screener said. Kansas states that late term abortions are only allowed if an impartial 3rd party doctor deemed them necessary. Dr. Tiller was brought up on charges for supposedly violating this law by having another doctor rubber stamp the 3rd party approval. I read that the jury in one trial deliberated for only an hour before they acquitted him. The guy did it by the book. He wasn't just aborting fetuses willy nilly. These were cases that often involved the life and/or death of the mother.

I dislike abortion immensely. I think it's a horrible thing. That said, sometimes there are cases where it's warranted. If the life of the mother is in jeopardy, sometimes you have to make a hard decision. This guy was there to serve people who made that decision. Before you go condemning the man outright, please learn all the facts.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

God killed more babies. Drown millions of them. I guess God is the most prolific late-term abortionist.

This could be so.

I'm always interested in and encouraged by the way travesty brings unity. A loving God pulls a whole bunch of children into what some believe an eternal paradise at the same time bringing millions of people on earth from all walks of life together in solidarity. So quick to indict a God for horrors, so slow to thank him for the morning dew, a bird singing, the smell of fresh air, friendships, laughter, and all kinds of good things. The God people keep talking about is not concerned as much with the chassis of the machine as He seems to be in the OS. If your eyes are moving to and fro looking only for unspeakable acts of a god, that's all you will find.

I'm not sure how well godlessness has served you by the above to be honest hyteckit.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Reading the responses of some in this forum, I'd say that the killer certainly has some support for murdering abortion clinic doctors.

where?


I know I've asked this before, but seriously, WTF is wrong with some of you? No one has said they condone what the killer did. Between you and the boobs randomly bringing up God/religion in every discussion, it really makes a person wonder.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

That's always one of the handiest and most convenient retorts that believers throw out when they don't have an answer. We know that god has a plan, but we can't tell you what it is, yet we know it exists, even though we have no way of knowing what it is. It's called circular logic, which uses one fallacy to support another.

Generally speaking, the Bible is very clear about God’s plans. If the Christians you have spoken to “have no idea what God’s plans are” then they haven’t read the Bible.

[ebuddy]

How have we gotten off into the "religious" or "Christian" discussions already anyway? The majority of the country claims to believe in the ol' guy with the beard in Heaven and yet... very few abortionist killings.

[Chongo]

AP reports that Dr. Tiller performed 250 "late term" procedures in 2003 alone and by is own count aborted over 60,000(1st-3rd term) in the 35 years he ran his clinic. Last year he made over $1 million.

[iMOTOR]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

How have we gotten off into the "religious" or "Christian" discussions already anyway?

To be fair, I was not the poster who brought up religion on page one.

I just came here to feed the troll.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

How have we gotten off into the "religious" or "Christian" discussions already anyway? The majority of the country claims to believe in the ol' guy with the beard in Heaven and yet... very few abortionist killings.

100% of abortionist killings are from christians

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

AP reports that Dr. Tiller performed 250 "late term" procedures in 2003 alone and by is own count aborted over 60,000(1st-3rd term) in the 35 years he ran his clinic. Last year he made over $1 million.

so? all legal btw.

are u defending the murder?

[AKcrab]

There is no way we'll all agree that this was a terrorist act.

I think it was a hate crime, and should be prosecuted as such.

What's crazy is that it's a Christian on Christian hate crime.

[(s)macintosh]

On a normal basis the man killed unborn babies that could have potentially survived outside the womb, and his family is calling his murder "an unspeakable tragedy"?

It seems to me like his death will actually cause fewer deaths in the long run.

HAY, which wun is legalz and protectorized by that tharz law? And which wun waz murder??

Killing that Doctor was MURDER. Performing late-term abortions may be murder in your eyes, but it was completely legit in the eyes of the legal system. F*cking shooting someone because they differ from your moral standards borderlines on terrorism.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by AKcrab 

What's crazy is that it's a Christian on Christian hate crime.

Yeah, that's just crazy. Ever heard of Ireland?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Is not one of the goals to use the fear of murder to stop doctors from performing abortions?

I think the facts indicate otherwise, and here's why. Terrorism has a simple recipe: target the typical. If you're a terrorist, everyone knows you can instill the most terror by picking a target that is the most similar to the most people in your targeted group. Someone on page 1 drew an analogy to Pres. Bush, saying that if someone shot him (for war crimes) that would be vigilantism, not terrorism. Why wouldn't it be terrorism? Because he is an exceptional case. He's not the typical American (even if he was during his campaign ), he's an exceptional case. If he was killed, I as a typical American wouldn't be thinking "I'm next," I would be thinking Presidents already know they have targets on their backs, that's why they have dozens of body guards all the time.

It's the same with this doctor. He wasn't a typical abortion doctor, he was an exceptional case. He was infamous for doing the most reviled procedures. That's why apparently he had bodyguards too, he already knew he was a target. Heck, he had already been shot numerous times. If I'm a typical abortion doctor and I see this, again I am not thinking "I'm next," I'm thinking that guy knew what he was getting into a long time ago.

Again, vigilantism isn't right, I'm not saying it is. I'm only saying it's a different shade of wrong than terrorism is, and you/we should be accurate in your/our indictments.

[iMOTOR]

Bottom line; we all can agree that whoever is convicted of killing Dr. Tiller should be eligible for the death penalty, right?

[Shaddim]

I don't support capital punishment any longer, I changed my mind about that quite a while back.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yeah, that's just crazy. Ever heard of Ireland?

Yeah, that was crazy too!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

Bottom line; we all can agree that whoever is convicted of killing Dr. Tiller should be eligible for the death penalty, right?

Since the person admitted to it and there's no question, yes. 1st degree murder.

[torsoboy]

Originally Posted by (s)macintosh 

HAY, which wun is legalz and protectorized by that tharz law? And which wun waz murder??

Killing that Doctor was MURDER. Performing late-term abortions may be murder in your eyes, but it was completely legit in the eyes of the legal system. F*cking shooting someone because they differ from your moral standards borderlines on terrorism.

They are both murderers in my view, and both were wrong for doing what they did. The law should be followed, but just because you stay within the letter of the law, doesn't mean that what you are doing is right or should be defended.

It was definitely not terrorism. The guy didn't kill innocent bystanders, and he didn't do it to bring fear to the masses. It seems like he killed him because he thought it was the only way a murderer (in his eyes) would be brought to justice. He also didn't shoot him because he had different morals, he shot him because the man had killed thousands of babies, and there was no end to it in sight. It was vigilante justice, nothing more. Was it right for him to do? No.

Late-term abortions should be stopped, but murdering the people that perform them isn't something that I agree with or would encourage.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Late-term abortions should be stopped, but murdering the people that perform them isn't something that I agree with or would encourage.

The idea that late-term abortions must be stopped altogether is like eliminating all violence — it's a nice thought, but ultimately untenable. If it's a choice between two dead bodies or just one, you'd have to be brain-damaged not to choose the latter.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

so? all legal btw.

are (yo)u defending the murder?

No, if the man arrested is indeed his killer, he should get the death penalty if convicted of 1st degree murder. Dr. Tiller was allegedly skirting around the second opinion of non-viability outside the womb requirement.

I brought up the fact that Tiller was making in excess of $1 million a year because the bottom line is it not about choice, it's about money. The abortion industry is billion dollar a year enterprise, with the "non profit" Planned Parenthood as one of the top money makers.

This is just what Pelosi et al were needing to revive the "fairness doctrine." Rachel Madcow spent a good deal of her show trying to blame everyone from Bill O'Reilly to the Pope, just as the left tried to blame talk radio for Timothy McVeigh. If that's the case, Algore needs to be in jail for inciting the Unibomber because his book "Earth in the Balance" was found in Ted Kaczynski's cabin.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

I brought up the fact that Tiller was making in excess of $1 million a year because the bottom line is it not about choice, it's about money.

Let's count the logical fallacies here:

1. Ad hominem. It accuses Tiller of greed, with the assumption that this refutes the rectitude of what he was doing.
2. Non sequitur. Apparently because Tiller made a lot of money, he can't have believed what he was doing was morally OK. This presumably means my dentist is a dirty sinner who ought to be killed too.
3. Red herring fallacy. The question of whether Tiller was in it for the money is rather immaterial to the issue at hand, which is his murder. It's not any more OK to murder someone if he's a capitalist.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

No, if the man arrested is indeed his killer, he should get the death penalty if convicted of 1st degree murder. Dr. Tiller was allegedly skirting around the second opinion of non-viability outside the womb requirement.

I brought up the fact that Tiller was making in excess of $1 million a year because the bottom line is it not about choice, it's about money. The abortion industry is billion dollar a year enterprise, with the "non profit" Planned Parenthood as one of the top money makers.

I heard the Christianity industry is a billion dollar a year enterprise, with the "non profit" Catholic Church as one of the top money makers.

Didn't realize choice and money were mutually exclusive.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by screener 

There's usually another side of a story.
Where will women go now? - Broadsheet - Salon.com

Shhh.. anti-abortionist don't want to heard the other side of the story. Don't try to put a human face to a tragedy.

All anti-abortionist care about is that Dr. Tiller is a baby killer and murder.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

This could be so.

I'm always interested in and encouraged by the way travesty brings unity. A loving God pulls a whole bunch of children into what some believe an eternal paradise at the same time bringing millions of people on earth from all walks of life together in solidarity. So quick to indict a God for horrors, so slow to thank him for the morning dew, a bird singing, the smell of fresh air, friendships, laughter, and all kinds of good things. The God people keep talking about is not concerned as much with the chassis of the machine as He seems to be in the OS. If your eyes are moving to and fro looking only for unspeakable acts of a god, that's all you will find.

I'm not sure how well godlessness has served you by the above to be honest hyteckit.

Maybe this loving God should drown everyone again and bring everyone to eternal paradise? Maybe this time instead of drowning, he can bake us to death.

Maybe Dr. Tiller was just doing God's work by bringing babies to heaven.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Arty50 

Kansas states that late term abortions are only allowed if an impartial 3rd party doctor deemed them necessary.

Necessary based on what? What criteria must they use? Sounds like a meaningless rule to me. Most cases of late term abortion do not involve the "life and/or death of the mother" according to most credible evidence and testimony from people involved. The majority are for convenience, in that the women in question just didn't want the child and decided for whatever reason when her baby was already viable outside the womb that she didn't want it to live.

Sure, there are some exceptions, but for the majority this is the case. I think that the point is that this guy didn't just do it for the exceptions. This didn't mean he deserved to be murdered, but I have no problem with people picketing him or putting peer pressure on him to stop murdering babies because women decide at the last minute that they don't want them.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by kobi 

That would be like getting evidence on the Mob. The solution is to charge all of these Right Wing Pro-Life groups under the RICO statute and take them all down.

Same with PETA and CODE PINK. Those two organizations do the same thing, and many of their members engage in criminal behaviors. What's fair for the goose....

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

The murderer was a member of Operation Rescue. The organization focused their resources and money on demonizing Dr. Tiller and other abortion doctors. They don't outright say it, but the organization exists to push someone over the edge and do what they can't publicly say they want done.

Wow. That's some pretty amazing logic you're using there.

So someone belonging to PETA that engages in crime is PETA's fault? If one of those CODE PINK loonies goes off and kills George Bush, it's CODE PINK's fault?

They claim they abhor violence, yet are constantly the instigators of it.

They've instigated nothing. If boycotting, picketing and "demonizing" is an act on instigating violence, then I've just listed two major instigators of violence and crime. That is if you're being logically consistent.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Maybe this loving God should drown everyone again and bring everyone to eternal paradise? Maybe this time instead of drowning, he can bake us to death.

After that, can we go for ice cream? Egadz. Depressed much? Carrying the weight of the world's travesties must be awfully burdensome on you.

Maybe Dr. Tiller was just doing God's work by bringing babies to heaven.

Maybe God is bringing aborted babies to heaven. I'm not certain. For most, there is little fruit in killing babies. I'm not familiar with Dr. Tiller's work so I'm not going to make a judgment on his career. What I can say is that approximately half the babies aborted in this country are by "mothers" returning for their second. If pregnancy is endangering their lives, they should stop having sex or learn to use contraception? Crazy I know.

Other than the conviction some feel by a god they don't believe in (always confounds me); what I don't understand is why folks are invoking God in the first place. Some are trying to suggest this guy is a Christian when all we really know about him was that he was part of a right-wing group of "Freemen". No one from the group is claiming responsibility for being connected. (as terrorists generally do immediately) No one has cited his church attendance, or his "Biblical" motive or anything right? Did I miss something?

[ebuddy]

On the front page of Operation Rescue's website is a statement released immediately by the President of the Organization, Troy Newman;

Scott Roeder has never been a member, contributor, or volunteer with Operation Rescue. Mr. Roeder may have posted to our open blog web site, as have thousands of members of the public, including those with pro-abortion views, but he is not affiliated with this organization.
We deplore the criminal actions with which Mr. Roeder is accused.
The pro-life ethic is to value all human life from the moment of conception until natural death. Operation Rescue has diligently and successfully worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see to it that abortionists around the nation are brought to justice. Without due process, there can be no justice.
In spite of these horrific events, we remain dedicated to working through all peaceful and legal means available to bring an end to the killing of innocent children through abortion.

I applaud their work!!!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Wow. That's some pretty amazing logic you're using there.

This won't stop many from pretending to be outraged so they can make some political statement with the Dr.'s death.

Making him something he never wanted to be, a martyr for their cause of abortion on demand.

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

Bottom line; we all can agree that whoever is convicted of killing Dr. Tiller should be eligible for the death penalty, right?

Now that's what I call a late-term abortion.

Isn't it ironic?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

So someone belonging to PETA that engages in crime is PETA's fault? If one of those CODE PINK loonies goes off and kills George Bush, it's CODE PINK's fault?

ummmmm .... that's pretty much *exactly* the logic that's been used over the last 8 years to villainize Islam because of the actions of a few terrorists.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Let's count the logical fallacies here:

1. Ad hominem. It accuses Tiller of greed, with the assumption that this refutes the rectitude of what he was doing.

According MSDNC and DNCNN, all doctors are greedy, that's why we need universal healthcare.

2. Non sequitur. Apparently because Tiller made a lot of money, he can't have believed what he was doing was morally OK. This presumably means my dentist is a dirty sinner who ought to be killed too.

Does your dentist extract healthy teeth because "the attending dentist believes that keeping the (an otherwise perfectly healthy) tooth constitute a substantial and irreversible impairment of the patient's mental function?"

Red herring fallacy. The question of whether Tiller was in it for the money is rather immaterial to the issue at hand, which is his murder. It's not any more OK to murder someone if he's a capitalist.

I stated if if the man arrested is indeed the murderer of Dr. Tiller, is tried and convicted of 1st degree murder, he needs to receive the maximum penalty available, including the death penalty.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

How have we gotten off into the "religious" or "Christian" discussions already anyway? The majority of the country claims to believe in the ol' guy with the beard in Heaven and yet... very few abortionist killings.

The abortion issue is all about religion, and you know it. To suggest otherwise shows how disingenuous you are.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

Wow. That's some pretty amazing logic you're using there.

So someone belonging to PETA that engages in crime is PETA's fault? If one of those CODE PINK loonies goes off and kills George Bush, it's CODE PINK's fault?



They've instigated nothing. If boycotting, picketing and "demonizing" is an act on instigating violence, then I've just listed two major instigators of violence and crime. That is if you're being logically consistent.

Your reply shows how little you understand of human psychology and motivation. People join organizations because those organizations have similar beliefs. Some people take their beliefs too seriously in instances like this and commit heinous crimes as a result. Are those individuals criminally culpable for their actions? Of course! When the organization uses terms like "murderer," and other hateful terms, to describe those who believe differently than they do, they may not be criminally culpable, but they certainly are civilly culpable in inciting violence.

That's what I love about you; everything is so simple in your world, as if your logic shows everything in black and white.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by iMOTOR 

Bottom line; we all can agree that whoever is convicted of killing Dr. Tiller should be eligible for the death penalty, right?

No, we can't. Taking a human life is murder, whether the state does it or an individual does it. Using the state as a shield just gives us a convenient way to assuage our guilt and responsibility for a heinous crime.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

The abortion issue is all about religion, and you know it. To suggest otherwise shows how disingenuous you are.

I disagree.

I try to keep my dogmatic beliefs out of my political viewpoints. I believe that abortion is ending a human life because I've seen no objective evidence to the contrary. It's an entity with its own unique DNA and, although not fully developed, its own brain, heart, and lungs - but there are certainly babies born alive with underdeveloped internal organs and bodies, so this isn't a valid enough qualifier for whether or not a baby can be considered a human or not.

This is also why I don't add in that disclaimer of "except in the cases of incest or rape" - it's a human baby, no matter what conditions arose to create it. Even if it was created through rape, aborting it is still ending a life.

I choose to err on the side of caution - there's no specific point at which an unborn baby "becomes" a living human being. You may say that life begins at birth, but there are babies that can survive premature birth. Who's to say that a baby aborted sometime in the third trimester (e.g. late-term abortions) couldn't survive at that point were he to be born alive?

I support the death penalty for certain crimes because the person who commits a crime chooses to do so. The insanity argument certainly comes into play here, but many times, a person who murders in cold blood does so with full knowledge of what they're doing and what the ramifications are if they are caught and convicted. An unborn baby, on the other hand, does not choose to be aborted - he has no say in whether or not he is allowed to continue living.

A woman chooses to have unprotected sex. She is aware of the risks in doing so, yet ignores them. When she finds herself with a new life inside her body, instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she puts on the band-aid of abortion so that she continue to have unprotected sex without worrying about what will happen as a result.

This is a huge problem - not only can unprotected sex cause the creation of a new life, but it also exposes the participants to a wide variety of STIs. It's an irresponsible act for many reasons, not just unwanted pregnancy. You may not get pregnant this time, but you might be risking yourself to contracting HIV, herpes, or other incurable, lifelong diseases.

You can be anti-abortion without being religious at all.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

No, if the man arrested is indeed his killer, he should get the death penalty if convicted of 1st degree murder. Dr. Tiller was allegedly skirting around the second opinion of non-viability outside the womb requirement.

I brought up the fact that Tiller was making in excess of $1 million a year because the bottom line is it not about choice, it's about money. The abortion industry is billion dollar a year enterprise, with the "non profit" Planned Parenthood as one of the top money makers.

This is just what Pelosi et al were needing to revive the "fairness doctrine." Rachel Madcow spent a good deal of her show trying to blame everyone from Bill O'Reilly to the Pope, just as the left tried to blame talk radio for Timothy McVeigh. If that's the case, Algore needs to be in jail for inciting the Unibomber because his book "Earth in the Balance" was found in Ted Kaczynski's cabin.

you say it's not about choice it's about money... do you think the women who have abortions are doing it just to line the pockets of the doctors or planned parenthood?

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I disagree.

I try to keep my dogmatic beliefs out of my political viewpoints.

You may try, but if you claim to be a member of a religious group, your religious upbringing has a definitive and substantial effect on your beliefs. Your god and his church has decreed that taking a human's life is wrong, and you can try to cloak it in other terms, but it won't wash.

I believe that abortion is ending a human life because I've seen no objective evidence to the contrary. It's an entity with its own unique DNA and, although not fully developed, its own brain, heart, and lungs - but there are certainly babies born alive with underdeveloped internal organs and bodies, so this isn't a valid enough qualifier for whether or not a baby can be considered a human or not.

If you were honest with yourself, you'd admit that your views are based on your religious beliefs.

This is also why I don't add in that disclaimer of "except in the cases of incest or rape" - it's a human baby, no matter what conditions arose to create it. Even if it was created through rape, aborting it is still ending a life.

I choose to err on the side of caution - there's no specific point at which an unborn baby "becomes" a living human being. You may say that life begins at birth, but there are babies that can survive premature birth. Who's to say that a baby aborted sometime in the third trimester (e.g. late-term abortions) couldn't survive at that point were he to be born alive?

Still more beliefs based on religion.

I support the death penalty for certain crimes because the person who commits a crime chooses to do so. The insanity argument certainly comes into play here, but many times, a person who murders in cold blood does so with full knowledge of what they're doing and what the ramifications are if they are caught and convicted.

I take it that all of your actions are taken only after full dissection and analyzation of the ramifications involved? I'm not justifying murder or crime, but to state that people murder in cold blood do so with full knowledge of what they're doing and the ramifications involved belies the fact that their emotions can become an overriding factor in their decision. The human species is often not as rational as you would like to believe, as history is full of horrific stories of bloodshed and carnage, most often carried out in the name of religion.

An unborn baby, on the other hand, does not choose to be aborted - he has no say in whether or not he is allowed to continue living.

That is true, if one considers an unborn baby as a human.

A woman chooses to have unprotected sex. She is aware of the risks in doing so, yet ignores them. When she finds herself with a new life inside her body, instead of taking responsibility for her actions, she puts on the band-aid of abortion so that she continue to have unprotected sex without worrying about what will happen as a result.

Now you're saying, if I read correctly, that it's always a woman's choice to have sex, even if her father/uncle/brother rapes her. Not very consistent.

This is a huge problem - not only can unprotected sex cause the creation of a new life, but it also exposes the participants to a wide variety of STIs. It's an irresponsible act for many reasons, not just unwanted pregnancy. You may not get pregnant this time, but you might be risking yourself to contracting HIV, herpes, or other incurable, lifelong diseases.

A true statement, but only in the cases where one of the parties has such a disease. This is a separate issue from what's being discussed.

You can be anti-abortion without being religious at all.

Also a possibly true statement, but extraordinarily unlikely, considering that 80 - ninety percent of the populations believes in a higher deity of some sort, and seeing as how the majority of unbelievers still started life as part of a family with some religious beliefs.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

ummmmm .... that's pretty much *exactly* the logic that's been used over the last 8 years to villainize Islam because of the actions of a few terrorists.

I don't think Islam has been villainized.

I do think those who promote radical Islamic doctrine WHO DO preach hate and violence HAVE been appropriately villianized though. I see no real "blanket" villianization of Islam as a whole. Maybe I'm missing it.