[Waragainstsleep]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lL8JEEt2RxI

NSFW - Language

[subego]

If putting it this well takes 12 minutes, maybe it's more complicated than is being let on.

I prefer Eddie Izzard's "pursuit of happiness" routine.

"That's your problem in America, innit? You pursue happiness. Get over here, happiness! BLAM!"

[besson3c]

Brilliant, thanks!

[subego]

Both of you are fine with hunting rifles, right?

[subego]

I'll even put my cards on the table.



From left to right:

Hunting rifle size round
Assault rifle size round
AA size battery

[Snow-i]

He's funny, but none of his arguments stand up to even slight scrutiny (and since he's a comedian, they're not supposed to).

If a comedian is the best person to articulate your argument for you, you might want to rethink your position.

[besson3c]

Which ones, and why?

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'll even put my cards on the table.



From left to right:

Hunting rifle size round
Assault rifle size round
AA size battery

"**** off, I like guns."

[subego]

And you don't, because you don't trust yourselves.

Which I always found amusing, considering the superior attitude.

But hey, if it means anything, I wouldn't trust you either. Your continent has a poor record with them.

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Which ones, and why?

Let's ban the "big" ones.

So, hunting rifles, right?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by subego 

Let's ban the "big" ones.

So, hunting rifles, right?

You are picking at semantics. By "big" he meant the scary and most lethal ones that reload quickly, etc. not the ones with the biggest bullets.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

lethal ones

They're all lethal

[besson3c]

Sorry, meant to say "most lethal".

[subego]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You are picking at semantics. By "big" he meant the scary and most lethal ones that reload quickly, etc. not the ones with the biggest bullets.

Of those bullets in the pic... guess which one is the most lethal? The hunting bullet.

Plenty of hunting rifles reload fast.


What about the flipside of that joke. It's "**** off, I like guns", right?

Fine. I'll admit that.

Where's the part where you admit that as something you don't like, you have a weakness when it comes to relevant details.

Sure, you get pissed off by "gun nuts". Can't we get a little pissed off by "hunting rifles are okay... just as long as we don't have any big, deadly bullets"?

[BadKosh]

So, what about the wack job factor? It is looking like its time to re-vamp the way "Mental Health Professionals" do their jobs. I see greater benefit to our well being to get the nut jobs off the streets an away from weapons. Banning guns is not a solution, as its impossible to get every last one.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

And you don't, because you don't trust yourselves.

Which I always found amusing, considering the superior attitude.

But hey, if it means anything, I wouldn't trust you either. Your continent has a poor record with them.

This might be the daftest thing I ever saw you post.

Firstly, I totally trust myself to handle and use a gun responsibly. Also to store it responsibly. Regular maintenance I may fall down on here and there. But generally, its not me I don't trust, I know me and I know I can be trusted. I am as certain as I can be that I won't get sad and top myself and that I won't get mad and top anyone else. Its you I don't trust.

Now you probably didn't mean you and me the individuals, you meant Europe and America. But I would trust Europe over America any day of the week. Our gun enthusiasts are enthusiasts. Yours are called gun nuts. With good reason.

I can only assume you are referring to two world wars? I suspect they are a big part of why we are more trustworthy now. I have long suspected they had a very sobering influence on our outlook when it comes to war and violence.

The attitude is superior because we experienced that problem, and we fixed it. Therefore you know the solution but you refuse to fix it. To paraphrase Einstein: "Taking no action whatsoever and expecting the same things not to happen again is the very definition of insanity."

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

The attitude is superior because we experienced that problem, and we fixed it. Therefore you know the solution but you refuse to fix it.

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[BadKosh]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Our gun enthusiasts are enthusiasts. Yours are called gun nuts. With good reason.

Opinions from afar. You fall for every label the media feeds you? Characterizations are fictional.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source

The only nation where citizens are regularly killed by guns? You're kidding right?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

The only nation where citizens are regularly killed by guns? You're kidding right?

Stuff like Newtown, Aurora, Colombine, etc.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Stuff like Newtown, Aurora, Colombine, etc.

And by world do you mean just America and Canada and maybe Britain? Or should we include all the other countries where this type of thing happens so often its not even newsworthy? If the former, I think you're leaving out a couple continents and a whole slew of countries.

[besson3c]

In what other advanced countries does this happen at the same frequency?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

In what other advanced countries does this happen at the same frequency?

Oh so now we're only counting 'Advanced" countries? pray tell.. which ones don't count and how exactly are they not part of the world anymore? For starters, this shit happens every day in Mexico and central america. Don't count out our friends down in South America either. That's just this hemisphere without even looking at Africa, Europe, the middle east and asia.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Oh so now we're only counting 'Advanced" countries? pray tell.. which ones don't count and how exactly are they not part of the world anymore? For starters, this read happens every day in Mexico and central america. Don't count out our friends down in South America either. That's just this hemisphere without even looking at Africa, Europe, the middle east and asia.

The claim always used the qualifier of "advanced country". Obviously what an advanced country is is up for debate, but put it this way, these crazy shooting sprees are very rare in most, if not all European countries, Canada, Japan, South Korea, China (I believe), India. That covers a lot of ground.

While we could dispute this too, I'm hoping we can agree that these happen at an alarming rate in the US, we can do much better, and we need to really start confronting these problems rather than doing nothing about them, whether that is in the form of gun control, or confronting issues of race by taking down the confederate flag in SC.

[besson3c]

A better look at things might be at the urban level, since these sprees seem to happen most in populated areas. Tokyo is the most populated city in the world, have you ever looked at how ridiculously rare shooting sprees are there?

I'm not satisfied with just accounting for this difference by saying that Japan deals with mental illness better, because every country struggles with mental illness, and mental illness exists everywhere.

I think the American problems have more to do with its unique gun culture as the comedian pointed out, wealth disparity, America's history of racial tension and armed rebellion, and perhaps its war on drugs (although, of course, drugs are also an international problem).

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Non-American talking about gun control in the USA. No thanks.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Non-American talking about gun control in the USA. No thanks.

This argument. No thanks.

It is idiotic to think that only Americans can have a valid and perceptive take on American attitudes towards guns and gun policy, especially since you are quick to chime in with your opinions about British politics. Some Americans here that have made the same sort of poor arguments have been quick to chime in on Canadian health care, relations between Israel and Palestine, etc. Which is it, do you need to be a citizen in the country to have a valid opinion, or not? Permanent resident? Resident?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Yep, I could be just fine not discussing the policies of other countries, other than my own. They don't, I don't.

[besson3c]

Can we put to rest the silly idea that you need to have some sort of national immigration credential to have a valid opinion about that country's politics?

Even if you feel that you somehow need to have spent a lot of time in America to understand American people (and the internet and/or other relationships with Americans just won't do), there is so much difference and disconnect between a typical rural conservative dude in Alabama and an urbanite from San Fran or New York that you could make a good argument along these lines that one shouldn't be able to have a valid opinion over the other's stuff, yet we accept their opinions because they have American passports.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

As long as you realize that because you aren't a US citizen your opinion regarding guns in the USA means ****-all, go right ahead. With respect to firearms and personal defense we are entirely different cultures, it would serve you best to keep that in mind, and if you don't like that, don't come here. It really is that basic.

there is so much difference and disconnect between a typical rural conservative dude in Alabama and an urbanite from San Fran or New York that you could make a good argument along these lines that one shouldn't be able to have a valid opinion over the other's stuff

That's why different states have different gun laws regarding concealed carry, types of guns allowed, and even ammunition (though firearms can never be banned entirely no matter where you go in the USA, because owning them is a constitutional right). As a different state, with different social norms, that's their prerogative. I don't live, or vote, in those places. Hell, I don't even have to visit, and generally won't. (In fact, they'll be ice skating in hell before I ever enter NYC again.)

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The claim always used the qualifier of "advanced country".

No, it hasn't. Nor was it here.

Obviously what an advanced country is is up for debate, but put it this way, these crazy shooting sprees are very rare in most, if not all European countries, Canada, Japan, South Korea, China (I believe), India. That covers a lot of ground.

Wow, you just named like 4% of the world the article was referring to, and you can't really add china or India to that list either. "This is the only place in the world it happens" is hyperbolic bullshit, as you just demonstrated.

While we could dispute this too, I'm hoping we can agree that these happen at an alarming rate in the US, we can do much better, and we need to really start confronting these problems rather than doing nothing about them, whether that is in the form of gun control, or confronting issues of race by taking down the confederate flag in SC.

Well, banning guns isn't the answer. This happened today in the world. 30 dead after 2 girls blow selves up near northeast Nigeria mosque | Fox News Bet you didn't even hear about it til just now, and will forget about it long before Charleston. Near a church by misguided youths, and over 3x as many fatalities all without a single bullet being fired. Maybe if they just banned guns there the killings would stop.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

As long as you realize that because you aren't a US citizen your opinion regarding guns in the USA means ****-all, go right ahead. With respect to firearms and personal defense we are entirely different cultures, it would serve you best to keep that in mind, and if you don't like that, don't come here. It really is that basic.

"If you don't like it, go home! If you don't like it, go home! If you don't like it, go home!"

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

firearms can never be banned entirely no matter where you go in the USA, because owning them is a constitutional right

"Its called an amendment"

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

In fact, they'll be ice skating in hell before I ever enter NYC again.

No doubt their bagels are soggy with tears.



I'm guessing you didn't even watch the video.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

No, it hasn't. Nor was it here. Wow, you just named like 4% of the world the article was referring to, and you can't really add china or India to that list either. "This is the only place in the world it happens" is hyperbolic bullshit, as you just demonstrated.

This is ridiculous. The comparison to other countries is bound to come with caveats. Perhaps you think US gun violence is pretty low because there is more in Syria where a civil war is being fought?
India and China are included not because they are comparable to the US in the same way as Canada or Western Europe, but because these countries should probably have more gun violence than they do and they still don't have the mass shootings that you get on a regular basis.

We don't include countries where its part of the culture of drug gangs or warlords to shoot a lot of people. Openly corrupt governments or dictators are good reasons to justify why such things would happen frequently. You don't have this excuse, no matter how much you hate Obama.

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Well, banning guns isn't the answer.

Except it is. Or it would be if people would follow any ban, amnesty or buyback program that was enacted. In the US they won't at the moment. Not enough of them for it to work anyway. Its not really a question of mental health being the only problem, it is the gun culture. And like the 40% of you that believe that North America is only 8 yards wide, it will fade eventually. Perhaps in 100 years or so. Should only cost half a million lives. A million tops. In the mean time perhaps the rest of us should do our part to speed things along for you by changing some of the news taglines from "Tributes pour in from around the world" to "Rest of world says its your own stupid fault you dumb ****s."

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

This happened today in the world. 30 dead after 2 girls blow selves up near northeast Nigeria mosque | Fox News Bet you didn't even hear about it til just now, and will forget about it long before Charleston. Near a church by misguided youths, and over 3x as many fatalities all without a single bullet being fired. Maybe if they just banned guns there the killings would stop.

Nigeria has plenty of other issues to solve and legislation it needs to pass before it can get to the point of regulating firearms. I'm betting you know full well how stupid this comparison is. Or maybe you think South Carolina is just like Nigeria?

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

What about the flipside of that joke. It's "**** off, I like guns", right?

Fine. I'll admit that.

Where's the part where you admit that as something you don't like, you have a weakness when it comes to relevant details.

Sure, you get pissed off by "gun nuts". Can't we get a little pissed off by "hunting rifles are okay... just as long as we don't have any big, deadly bullets"?

Its nothing to do with me not liking guns. Its people dying needlessly that I don't like. I'd love to spend an afternoon firing missiles at empty buildings or scrap cars. That would be awesome fun. I totally get it. As a scientist, I can fascinate and occupy myself doing experiments with highly lethal radioactive or toxic substances and I could be trusted to do them safely in my shed. But none of this means that I think its a good idea for any ****wit to be able to walk into Asda (UK branch of Wal-Mart) and fill their trolley with Uranium, cyanide and rocket launchers.

Hunting rifles have a purpose other than to kill people. You also wouldn't conceal one in your jacket when you went shopping. They aren't really that practical for holding up banks either although I'll grant you you could try that. You could also try it with a nail gun or a chainsaw.

I also realise that using the term gun nut is a little unfair, though I submit it exists for a reason. And there is a difference with both the prevalence of them in the US compared to elsewhere and in many cases their attitudes.

Lets compare them to car enthusiasts. There are two kinds of car enthusiasts. The first is the nerd. Usually a little older, and has an appreciation for the craft, the engineering, the skill of the designers and mechanics who maintain or modify them. They like older cars, restored to factory condition. All original parts. Like the guy who built his own Bugatti La Royale down to reverse engineering some 1930s coach paint for it. Then there is the second type. The boy racers. They like to modify, tune up, make them faster. Often at the expense of reliability or even safety. And while the nerds might well be all about track days or hill climbs, the boy racers are about street races and showing off to girls and each other. They've seen The Fast and the Furious too many times.

Now one of these types is highly likely to drive a boring sedan during the week at sensible speeds, within the posted limits. The other takes the hot rod everywhere and drives it like a ****ing loon. One type is far more likely to drink and drive, or take drugs and drive. And cause accidents and kill people. Or themselves.

In terms of gun enthusiasts, we have plenty of nerds. You have many too. But you have way more boy racers. Way more.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

No, it hasn't. Nor was it here. Wow, you just named like 4% of the world the article was referring to, and you can't really add china or India to that list either. "This is the only place in the world it happens" is hyperbolic bullshit, as you just demonstrated.
Well, banning guns isn't the answer. This happened today in the world. 30 dead after 2 girls blow selves up near northeast Nigeria mosque | Fox News Bet you didn't even hear about it til just now, and will forget about it long before Charleston. Near a church by misguided youths, and over 3x as many fatalities all without a single bullet being fired. Maybe if they just banned guns there the killings would stop.

And if our benchmark is countries like Nigeria than we really have it bad.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

As long as you realize that because you aren't a US citizen your opinion regarding guns in the USA means ****-all, go right ahead. With respect to firearms and personal defense we are entirely different cultures, it would serve you best to keep that in mind, and if you don't like that, don't come here. It really is that basic.

This is a shit argument.

I've gone from being a student in the U.S. to being a permanent resident to being a citizen. Maybe my viewpoints would have fundamentally transformed if I came from a struggling third world country, but I assure you that having a different piece of paper has had little bearing on my perspectives.

I had numbskulls make this same stupid remark about me not being a citizen even though I was a permanent resident for 14 years. I assure you that my life wasn't transformed by getting a piece of paper

And again, Americans are often criticized as being the world' police, so many are in a horrible position to get away with an argument like this.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Oh so now we're only counting 'Advanced" countries?

From the link:

At press time, residents of the only economically advanced nation in the world where roughly two mass shootings have occurred every month for the past five years were referring to themselves and their situation as “helpless.”

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

"If you don't like it, go home! If you don't like it, go home! If you don't like it, go home!"

Are you having a seizure? Funny how you isolate that out of the entire post, just to suit yourself. Not that I expect more. I'll play your game, though. Yeah, if you don't like it, f*** off.

"Its called an amendment"

Yep, it can be amended. Good luck with that gun control fetishists.

No doubt their bagels are soggy with tears.

I spend a lot of money when I spend time as a tourist, orders of magnitude more than the avg traveller. That's money out of their economy, so yeah, they should be concerned.

I'm guessing you didn't even watch the video.

Why waste my time?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is a shit argument.

Anything you disagree with is a "shit argument".

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Its nothing to do with me not liking guns. Its people dying needlessly that I don't like.

Did you know that in countries that have outlawed alcohol there are far fewer alcohol-related homicides? It appears that people are substantially less likely to drive while drunk when they can't buy booze (Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and Sudan). They're also much less likely to murder people with knives when they don't have access to those, either (Singapore). Just thought I'd point that out...

The murder rate in the USA is 4.7 (for guns it's ~3.9) per 100k. Now, I was beaten up rather severely when I pointed out that the gun murder rate for young urban black men was >80 per 100k (more than 100 in certain cities), but it bears repeating. If you were to remove the statistics for drug and gang related gun homicides for young black males, the US murder rate gets cut in half, to just under 2 per 100k, which is just slightly more than Canada or Finland. That's a very small percentage of the country contributing a shit load of murder to our overall rate.

So, the US problem with gun violence isn't about the guns themselves, it's overwhelmingly about gangs and drugs. IOW, stupid drug laws, money, and entitlement. Some want to scream about situations like Charleston and Sandy Hook, and it is an issue that soberly needs to be addressed (not with feelings and emotions), particularly WRT mental health screening and treatment (where the USA fails miserably), but all of those tragic occurrences combined don't even begin to scratch the surface when you analyze the frequency of inner city violence.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

And if our benchmark is countries like Nigeria than we really have it bad.

Jesus man, are you even capable of having an honest debate? "This is the only place in the world this happens" is an utter crock of shit, no matter how you try to squirm your way out of it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Jesus man, are you even capable of having an honest debate? "This is the only place in the world this happens" is an utter crock of shit, no matter how you try to squirm your way out of it.

and who said that?

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

From the link:

In the headline, and first sentence

citizens living in the only country where this kind of mass killing routinely occurs

. It's hyperbolic bullshit.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

and who said that?

The author of the article, in the very first sentence. Do you know how to read?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

In the headline, and first sentence . It's hyperbolic bullshit.

Well, if you'd like to pick and choose which parts of the article you acknowledge then have fun. I'll point out, however, that you're focusing on semantics instead of the gist of the article, which I helpfully quoted.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Well, if you'd like to pick and choose which parts of the article you acknowledge then have fun. I'll point out, however, that you're focusing on semantics instead of the gist of the article, which I helpfully quoted.

The gist of the article being it's a satire piece from a satire news site?



Ya'll are so incredibly out of touch on this issue, I'm not sure I can stay for the rest of this circle jerk. Enjoy your thread guys.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

The gist of the article being it's a satire piece from a satire news site?

So you treat the article seriously – up until this point. I'm dizzy.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

So you treat the article seriously – up until this point. I'm dizzy.

No, I treated the article as hyperbolic and completely disingenuous. You were the one arguing that it should stand on it's merits. Satires make points too you know. It didn't dawn on my how far in over your head you were until this morning's go around.

[The Final Dakar]

Also, the fervor of your criticism kind hints that you don't understand how satire works.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

No, I treated the article as hyperbolic and completely disingenuous. You were the one arguing that it should stand on it's merits. Satire's make points to you know.

Yes, I quoted that point. Which you keep ignoring.

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

It didn't dawn on my how far in over your head you were until this morning's go around.

Someone's overly aggressive.