[RAILhead]

Someone was asking about this on the Apple dev forums, too, and the thread has been deleted.

Hm....

[Art Vandelay]

A little birdy told me that you should check for new builds available for download now.

[RAILhead]

Crap -- beat me to it! Yes, 10A432 is now on the ADC Member download page, but not on the Mac Dev Center page (yet).

[slugslugslug]

Gruber said he heard it went GM, too. Maybe available by August 28.

[RAILhead]

ADC isn't saying it's GM, but if everyone is saying it is, maybe I'm just not seeing where Apple is claiming this like they did with the iPhone OS GM.

[RAILhead]

I should also say I'm not questioning everyone for the sake of questioning, I'm just hoping they fixed a pretty massive bug we found with the MacBook Air. After about 20 minutes of use, the fans begin to kick up to 6200rpm, then they stay -- and the whole side of the shell gets CRAZY hot. The only way to snap the MBA out of the high fan speed it to put it to sleep -- but then it does it all over again...

[64stang06]

Wow it's finally up there. I'm going to let it download overnight while I'm in bed and probably get to installing it this weekend.

I doubt this would be GM though. If I remember correctly, 10.5 GM wasn't available to us until the night of release, around 9pm EST.

[RAILhead]

[Simon]

Rosetta will become optional.

Also Archive & Install is history. Default will be update install. If you want to Erase & Install, you'll have to use Disk Utility.

Minor point updates will be preserved across Snow Leopard re-installs.

AppleInsider | Sources detail changes to Snow Leopard installation process

[RAILhead]

The seed note states:

Mac OS X version 10.6 Snow Leopard build 10A432 Developer Seed Note

Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard is the next major release of Mac OS X.

This Snow Leopard Developer Preview Update includes general operating system fixes for stability, compatibility, and security.

As this is a pre-release build, it is not advisable to use this software on a production system with information on it that you depend on for your business.

Please be aware that you will not be able to revert back to your previous system after updating. Please install this update on a system you are prepared to erase if necessary.

[Jasoco]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Also Archive & Install is history.

And it works so well. I was surprised when I installed the WWDC release and it didn't even ask me for an install option. It just went in straight.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by simon 

also archive & install is history. Default will be update install. If you want to erase & install, you'll have to use disk utility.

WTF? added so the "WTF" can be all caps

[kylef]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

WTF? added so the "WTF" can be all caps

well that's..annoying.

[Simon]

I understand the reasoning. A&I was developed before we had MA and TM. You can use MA to migrate user stuff from a clone or from a TM backup. Your old system is preserved on your TM backups too, so even if you E&I and do not chose to migrate anything, you can still copy back stuff from your old system manually. Same goes for user stuff.

The advantage is that it makes installation much easier to understand for not so experiences users: if SL is already there, it gets re-installed (read: fixed) without anything else being touched. If Leopard's there, it gets updated. If nothing's there, SL is installed from scratch. No user intervention required. It's as simple as that.

Those that want to wipe usually format too, so nothing lost there. The only people I see getting into trouble with this are those without a decent backup. And those people have a lesson to learn.

That said, when I read about this I just sooo knew this was going to cause an outcry on forums.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

archive-install has worked great for me over the years of major point releases. I'll do an archive-install.

No, actually you won't. It's been removed.

If you want a fresh system, you'll have to E&I SL (i.e. use DU first to format disk, then install SL) and then use MA to migrate back your user stuff from either your TM backup or a clone.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by Simon 

No, actually you won't. It's been removed.

If you want a fresh system, you'll have to E&I SL (i.e. use DU first to format disk, then install SL) and then use MA to migrate back your user stuff from either your TM backup or a clone.

You can get to Archive and Install from Disk Utility. The advanced installation options were moved to Disk Utility to lessen apparent user confusion.
Never mind. I'm a moron.

[Spheric Harlot]

Also of Note: a re-install is automatically an Archive & Install.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I understand the reasoning. A&I was developed before we had MA and TM. You can use MA to migrate user stuff from a clone or from a TM backup. Your old system is preserved on your TM backups too, so even if you E&I and do not chose to migrate anything, you can still copy back stuff from your old system manually. Same goes for user stuff.

1. Erasing, installing, and restoring from backup wastes a lot more of your time than a regular Archive and Install.

2. Time Machine doesn't work for some types of files, like virtual machine images. Those have to be backed up and restored manually, which is annoying.

3. Just because you have a backup doesn't mean you want to be restoring from it all the time. What if Time Machine turns out to have made a mistake backing up something? What if the backup drive itself has failed somehow, and you don't realize it until after you've already nuked the primary drive?

4. Not everyone has an up-to-date backup. Yeah, I know, but just wait until you have to fix someone else's Mac that needs a reinstall and isn't backed up. It'll be 5000% harder with Snow Leopard.

The advantage is that it makes installation much easier to understand for not so experiences users: if SL is already there, it gets re-installed (read: fixed) without anything else being touched. If Leopard's there, it gets updated. If nothing's there, SL is installed from scratch.

It's not installed from scratch. The article claims that if 10.6.1 is installed, the SL installer only reinstalls the files that the 10.6.1 updater didn't touch. That's not a clean install, especially since a major use of Archive and Install is to undo a software update that caused problems for a user. Now, the only recourse for such users is to wipe the drive. What is this, Windows?!

edit: Wait a minute... upon thinking about it a little more, I wonder if this is just for the $29 update-from-Leopard disc. That one requires Leopard to be pre-existing on the hard drive, so of course it wouldn't be able to do an E&I or A&I. Perhaps the regular Snow Leopard full install disc would still have A&I on it? Please?

[kylef]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

edit: Wait a minute... upon thinking about it a little more, I wonder if this is just for the $29 update-from-Leopard disc. That one requires Leopard to be pre-existing on the hard drive, so of course it wouldn't be able to do an E&I or A&I. Perhaps the regular Snow Leopard full install disc would still have A&I on it? Please?

Having to E&I Leopard before installing Snow Leopard would be massive pain. That's even more repair user permissions to do!

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

1. Erasing, installing, and restoring from backup wastes a lot more of your time than a regular Archive and Install.

Which is why people worried about time savings should be doing the update install.

2. Time Machine doesn't work for some types of files, like virtual machine images. Those have to be backed up and restored manually, which is annoying.

You should have more than just a single TM backup anyway. At the very least, you should have a second backup just before you plan to switch systems.

3. Just because you have a backup doesn't mean you want to be restoring from it all the time. What if Time Machine turns out to have made a mistake backing up something?

Exactly. Which is why you should have a redundant backup in addition to your TM backup.

What if the backup drive itself has failed somehow, and you don't realize it until after you've already nuked the primary drive?

In that case you've been an idiot. You never burn the last bridge before making absolutely sure you can move forward.

4. Not everyone has an up-to-date backup. Yeah, I know, but just wait until you have to fix someone else's Mac that needs a reinstall and isn't backed up. It'll be 5000% harder with Snow Leopard.

No it won't actually. For those people with a proper backup strategy hardly a thing will change. The others will make a clone before they change operating systems. And everybody else will either learn or suffer. Sorry to say, but I can live with that.

It's not installed from scratch. The article claims that if 10.6.1 is installed, the SL installer only reinstalls the files that the 10.6.1 updater didn't touch. That's not a clean install, especially since a major use of Archive and Install is to undo a software update that caused problems for a user.

Correct. And if that is a problem for you you will use E&I instead. Or, and IMHO this is makes much more sense, you simply roll back to the pre-update system from either a TM backup or a clone without ever thinking about running the installer.

It's true, some people will have to do things differently. But nothing in this 'new way' is flat out wrong. It's different. And ultimately, making the install process easier for a large majority of users is a good thing™.

[kylef]

From AppleInsider:

Options to "Erase and Install" and "Archive and Install" are no longer present in the Mac OS X 10.6 installer. According to those familiar with the software, this was done for convenience, so that users do not accidentally erase and install their Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard partitions. However, "Erase and Install" remains available through Disk Utility, which is also included on the installation DVD.

[Simon]

From the same article

There is no "Previous System" folder at the root level after reinstalling.

[RAILhead]

10A432 still has the No Sound Output Device bug in it with my MacBook Air -- and it still has the fan issue.

Hope this isn't the GM!

[RAILhead]

Server 10A433 was just seeded -- no way in Hades 10A432 Client is GM.

[Chuckit]

Server and client are normally different builds, aren't they?

[real]

Is most of the space saved, from not installing rosetta?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by real 

Is most of the space saved, from not installing rosetta?

No. The Rosetta option is listed in the current installer with a mere 1.9 MB extra. That's right MB, not GB.

Removing PPC code doesn't save much at all either because binary code is usually a very small part of the overall package size. Real savings come from removing resources: pics, sound, video, and stuff like extra printer drivers, etc.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Which is why people worried about time savings should be doing the update install.

I was thinking more about people whose installation is borked and who need to reinstall it, or who installed a software update that caused some problem or other.

You should have more than just a single TM backup anyway. At the very least, you should have a second backup just before you plan to switch systems.

Exactly. Which is why you should have a redundant backup in addition to your TM backup.

I highly doubt that too many people have more than one TM backup. Does TM even let you set more than one drive to back up to?

In that case you've been an idiot. You never burn the last bridge before making absolutely sure you can move forward.

How sweet. Doing it the way Apple apparently expects you to (Time Machine backup, Erase and Install) apparently makes you an idiot. Well, I suppose that says something about Apple's recommendations.

No it won't actually. For those people with a proper backup strategy hardly a thing will change. The others will make a clone before they change operating systems. And everybody else will either learn or suffer. Sorry to say, but I can live with that.

For those people with a proper backup strategy, something will change - the process to reinstall a failed system will take several hours instead of 30 minutes. For those who don't, the ones who suffer won't be the users, it'll be you and I - when we get asked to fix someone's computer, and they have no external hard drive around to clone to - just a stack of CD-Rs. Now you'll be in there all evening instead of for a half hour. Fun!

Correct. And if that is a problem for you you will use E&I instead. Or, and IMHO this is makes much more sense, you simply roll back to the pre-update system from either a TM backup or a clone without ever thinking about running the installer.

I could use E&I. I also could ditch the whole GUI concept and use DOS commands all day. Just because the least common denominator can be made to work doesn't mean that ease of use doesn't matter. This used to be a significant "ease of maintenance" advantage for OS X. All the way back to the System 7 days, I always thought it was ridiculous how on Windows you have to nuke your whole drive with all your data on it just to reinstall the OS. Now, it seems we've got that too (unless my speculation is correct about this only being for the Leopard -> Snow Leopard update disc).

It's true, some people will have to do things differently. But nothing in this 'new way' is flat out wrong. It's different. And ultimately, making the install process easier for a large majority of users is a good thing™.

Easier? How so? Does the existing installer take over your mouse and engage with the user in a game of tug-of-war, with the installer trying to pull the mouse toward a button labeled "Advanced Options" that most end-users probably won't even notice, and not letting the user click on "Continue"?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

I highly doubt that too many people have more than one TM backup. Does TM even let you set more than one drive to back up to?

What I was trying to say is that it's a good idea to have different backups. Having nothing but a TM backup is on the limit. At the very least, before you set out to swap the system on a production machine, you should do a clone or have at least one other redundant backup instead of just relying blindly on one TM backup disk.

How sweet. Doing it the way Apple apparently expects you to (Time Machine backup, Erase and Install) apparently makes you an idiot. Well, I suppose that says something about Apple's recommendations.

Actually it's nothing like that. Nobody said you should delete your clone before you've verified your new system works like you want. And if you do, well yes, then you're an idiot.

Update install to fix a botched system is always available. If you think that's not good enough you have a number of options. One of which includes E&I. You may chose to migrate user stuff with MA, you may chose not to. It's all up to you.

For those people with a proper backup strategy, something will change - the process to reinstall a failed system will take several hours instead of 30 minutes.

Baloney. You can always update install. Just like on Leopard. E&I is the extra (and hidden away in DU), the default is update install.

For those who don't, the ones who suffer won't be the users, it'll be you and I - when we get asked to fix someone's computer, and they have no external hard drive around to clone to - just a stack of CD-Rs. Now you'll be in there all evening instead of for a half hour. Fun!

I sure aint gonna suffer. I've always brought along a disk and will keep on doing so. I wouldn't think of touching optical media for backup purposes. But in every case so far where I've recovered a botched system an update install was sufficient. The only situations where I've needed to E&I was when additional hardware failure was involved.

I could use E&I. I also could ditch the whole GUI concept and use DOS commands all day.

Congratulations. You get the drama queen of the day award.

Now seriously, stop panicking. You're usually a pretty levelheaded guy, so what's the deal with all this hysteria? It's a total waste. Really.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

What I was trying to say is that it's a good idea to have different backups. Having nothing but a TM backup is on the limit. At the very least, before you set out to swap the system on a production machine, you should do a clone or have at least one other redundant backup instead of just relying blindly on one TM backup disk.

Nothing but a TM backup is what probably 30% of the user base is going to have. The other 69.99999% will have no backup at all. Apple's working to improve the other 69.99999% with Time Machine and Time Capsule, but I highly doubt very many Mac users actually have two full HD backups. So assuming they do is, to put it lightly, not a good idea.

Actually it's nothing like that. Nobody said you should delete your clone before you've verified your new system works like you want. And if you do, well yes, then you're an idiot.

And since no one ever said anything about deleting clones at all, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Update install to fix a botched system is always available.

Update Install is not sufficient to fix a botched system for the reasons I already laid out.

If you think that's not good enough you have a number of options. One of which includes E&I.

Really. And what would those other options be?

Bullshit. You can always update install. Just like on Leopard. E&I is the extra (and hidden away in DU), the default is update install.

Seriously now, are you deliberately trying to stir up a panic or did you simply not understand what Apple is changing?

Apparently you are simply not understanding what I am saying. Archive and Install is used to put a completely clean system back on the drive, after something has gone wrong, which may have included a problematic software update that the user no longer wants. The Update install as described in the article you linked does not do that.

But in every case so far where I've recovered a botched system an update install was sufficient. The only situations where I've needed to E&I was when additional hardware failure was involved.

Thanks for your anecdotal evidence. I, on the other hand, have encountered plenty of situations where an A&I was needed. The most obvious of them is when a software update has caused some sort of problem and the user needs to undo it now rather than wait for Apple to issue another software update to fix it, because it's interfering with the user's work.

Congratulations. You get the drama queen of the day award.

Congratulations, you get the "making it personal" award. If I were you, I'd cut with the personal attack BS, because it makes your arguments look even weaker than they are.

[Simon]

Charles, chill. I'm not going to argue with you about this nonsense. If want to make yourself believe you're doomed because of Apple's decision, so be it.

I'll get along just fine with this change. A botched system can still be fixed with an update install - just like today. If somebody needs the option to roll back from a certain system update they will still be able to use a TM backup or clone - just like today.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Charles, I'm not going to argue with you about this nonsense. If want to make yourself believe you're doomed because of Apple's decision, so be it.

I'm glad, because I'm growing quite weary of your ad hominem attacks and straw-man arguments (of which examples of both can be seen in the quote above).

I'll get along just fine with this change. A botched system can still be fixed with an update install - just like today.

No, it can't. Argh. And "just like today?" Today, it won't even let you do an Update install at all if the same or a later OS version is on the hard drive.

If somebody needs the option to roll back from a certain system update they will still be able to use a TM backup or clone - just like today.

And spend hours waiting for it to finish, just like today. Fun!

(And is there even an interface for TM to do that? Far as I know, the only way to restore from a TM backup is to erase & install the OS, and then have TM restore the data - not the system files. Heck, come to think about it, this actually makes it easier to roll back changes on Windows, since it has that system snapshot thing).

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Simon 

What I was trying to say is that it's a good idea to have different backups. Having nothing but a TM backup is on the limit. At the very least, before you set out to swap the system on a production machine, you should do a clone or have at least one other redundant backup instead of just relying blindly on one TM backup disk.

Normal people don't have production machines — they have iMacs, Mac minis, MacBooks, etc. that they use to get stuff done. They also don't know what a "redundant backup" us, except that it's not anything Time Machine ever recommended.

Originally Posted by Simon 

Update install to fix a botched system is always available. If you think that's not good enough you have a number of options. One of which includes E&I.

If you get rid of Archive & Install, what are the numerous other options for reinstalling?

Originally Posted by Simon 

I sure aint gonna suffer. I've always brought along a disk and will keep on doing so. I wouldn't think of touching optical media for backup purposes. But in every case so far where I've recovered a botched system an update install was sufficient.

Let's say I install a rogue haxie that you can't find and it's rendered the system unbootable. Will an update install fix this?

[CharlesS]

^ Yes, that's an excellent point. The whole APE issue that caused Leopard not to boot on install (installed by something as mundane as Logitech mouse drivers) was only solvable by an Archive and Install. An Update install would have left the stuff right in the /Library folder.

[Spheric Harlot]

That stuff supposedly gets moved to a new "incompatible software" folder.

[0157988944]

Also, you are assuming that the Upgrade and Install is the same thing as the current Upgrade and Install. Clearly it isn't, and one could hope Apple has thought of some of these issues with the new U&I

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Server and client are normally different builds, aren't they?

They have been to this point.And I still can't image Apple releasing this build with the crazy big bugs I've reported on. I mean, the laptop fan going to 6200rpm and NOT stopping until you sleep? Built-in audio output vanishing as though there is no output after sleep?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

No, it can't. Argh. And "just like today?" Today, it won't even let you do an Update install at all if the same or a later OS version is on the hard drive.

You can always run a combo update to do that "update install". If something went wrong during the last system update that usually takes care if of it.

And spend hours waiting for it to finish, just like today. Fun!

That's simply not true. The fastest way to roll back has always been a clone. In my case it takes about 30 min to make that clone and about the same time to play it back. Total: 1 hour.

Would I use A&I I'd be waiting about 45 min for the DVD to verify alone. Then I get to install 10.5. Another 45 min. Then I get to install the before-last combo update which will take at least another 15 min. On top of all that I get to re-install all the non-Apple stuff that I have in /Library. So add another one to N hours.

But rest assured, you can have all that wait even with SL. It's called E&I + MA.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

If you get rid of Archive & Install, what are the numerous other options for reinstalling?

• restore from TM
• clone back from other backup
• upgrade install
• E&I
• E&I and MA from clone
• E&I and MA from TM backup

And I probably forget some.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

• restore from TM
• clone back from other backup
• upgrade install
• E&I
• E&I and MA from clone
• E&I and MA from TM backup

And I probably forget some.

You said that if Upgrade Install isn't good enough, there are a number of other options besides E&I. Every single option on that list other than Upgrade Install is installing via E&I.

It's like saying that you have lots of options with the Ford Model T, since you can:

• get it in black and drive it north
• get it in black and drive it south
• get it in black and drive it east
• get it in black and drive it west

[Simon]

How does cloning back involve E&I?

As I said before, it's the fastest way I know to roll back to a specific system. Best of all, it's a free feature included with every OS X installation. It takes about four clicks.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

How does cloning back involve E&I?

The way you "clone back" with Time Machine is that you E&I, then when the first run assistant pops up you use Migration Assistant to migrate over your data. It's not like Windows System Restore.

Even if you're using some weird cloning strategy using something other than Time Machine like almost no one does, you're still erasing the hard drive by restoring a clone onto it. All your "options" are just differing implementation details of "erase and restore from backup".

Myself, I view the backup as something that I'm glad it's there, but I hope not to have to use it. It's there as a safety net in the case of catastrophic circumstances. I don't like having to rely on it being 100% accurate, which one must do when erasing and restoring from backup, because I am paranoid and never trust anything 100%. And no, hardly any users have redundant backups, so that is not a valid point.

[voodoo]

I was hoping they'd kill the Aqua look finally with Snow Leopard..

[Simon]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Even if you're using some weird cloning strategy using something other than Time Machine like almost no one does, you're still erasing the hard drive by restoring a clone onto it.

I'm using a 'weird strategy'?

I don't know. Thanks to that strategy I'm pretty happy. You OTOH sound a bit frustrated with these SL options. I think I'll stick with my 'weird strategy' then.

[Jasoco]

Trust me, guys. Whatever method SL is using, it works very well. It basically removes the old install and replaces it with the new one, but doesn't keep the old one. And it works seamlessly. So lighten up. It'll be awesome.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I was hoping they'd kill the Aqua look finally with Snow Leopard..

Me too. Oh well. Maybe next time.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Jasoco 

Trust me, guys. Whatever method SL is using, it works very well. It basically removes the old install and replaces it with the new one, but doesn't keep the old one. And it works seamlessly.

Glad to hear. I look forward to using it.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Simon 

I'm using a 'weird strategy'?

I don't know. Thanks to that strategy I'm pretty happy.

I'm guessing what you're doing is manually cloning the disk using Disk Utility. Which like I said, hardly any users do, so anything that relies on it doesn't work as a general-purpose solution. It's also not that great a backup strategy. Do you run your clone every hour to get hourly backups? Does the clone even finish in less than an hour? Or do you run a clone right before you do the E&I, adding even more time to the process?

You OTOH sound a bit frustrated with these SL options.

I already demonstrated to you that it's "option." No plural here. In the Leopard installer there are options. In the installer described by the AI article there aren't (unless, again, this applies only to the update disc).

[angelmb]

AppleInsider | Sources detail changes to Snow Leopard installation process

Although Rosetta and Quicktime 7 are both included on the Mac OS X 10.6 installation DVD, both are designated as optional installs by default. However, if Mac OS X 10.6 is being installed on a Mac that contains a registration key for Quicktime 7 Pro, the installer will install Quicktime 7 automatically.

and QuickTime X too?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

10A432 still has the No Sound Output Device bug in it with my MacBook Air -- and it still has the fan issue.

Hope this isn't the GM!

John Gruber says Snow Leopard is already GM, and he tends not to report these things unless the source is pretty credible. So expect Software Update to already have a present for you when you install the retail version.