[Garage81]

did they kill the drawer in mail?

whoa.

that is kinda weird.

[addiecool]

Tiger sucks even before it is released????

Man!! Wonder how badly panther sucked before its release.

[skimpson]

Originally posted by addiecool:
Tiger sucks even before it is released????

Man!! Wonder how badly panther sucked before its release.

exactly! just think positive for now

[siMac]

Originally posted by Garage81:
did they kill the drawer in mail?

Yes, at last they did. I never understood drawers as an interface element, but maybe that's because I run at 1024x768. At any rate I'm glad to see the back of 'em as far as Mail is concerned.

Are you listening David Watanabe?

[sushiism]

Originally posted by addiecool:
Tiger sucks even before it is released????

Man!! Wonder how badly panther sucked before its release.

lots and it still does

[Fusion]

Originally posted by siMac:
Yes, at last they did. I never understood drawers as an interface element, but maybe that's because I run at 1024x768. At any rate I'm glad to see the back of 'em as far as Mail is concerned.

Are you listening David Watanabe?

That is probably because you are on 1024. I started out with OS X on a 12" pbook and absolutely detested drawers. As soon as I moved to a 20" screen though, I fell in love with them, hard. They have to be one of my favorite parts of app interfaces now, but they do not fit at all with lower resolutions. OS X seems as if it was designed for large resolutions at times.

[MetalSnake]

Originally posted by Fusion:
That is probably because you are on 1024. I started out with OS X on a 12" pbook and absolutely detested drawers. As soon as I moved to a 20" screen though, I fell in love with them, hard. They have to be one of my favorite parts of app interfaces now, but they do not fit at all with lower resolutions. OS X seems as if it was designed for large resolutions at times.

I�m on 1600x1200 on a 21" CRT but still don�t see anything good about the Drawer, it fits nowhere. Most apps I use stoped using those Drawers already. I hope Apple will kill those in 10.5 Lion ()

[Anubis IV]

Honestly, my favorite use of a drawer wasn't even done by Apple...it's how multiple IM sessions are handled in one window in Proteus. For some reason I like that look better than the tabs of Adium...I still use Adium as my main IM client now, but I always liked the way they used that drawer in Proteus. Dunno why.

[valdur]

honestly i think that it is a good thing that the new GUI is horrible...it lights the fire under the asses of all our artists here and that is why we even have a gui community and are able to use their beautiful themes...

the only thing to complain about is that they should make it easier to change themes or have at least more than one default built in...

[Jay Condon]

A couple folks have noted some similarities between the new GUI and windows XP....the widget styles, the shades of blue..... and I bet that it's no coincidence. Everywhere you read about how apple is trying to parlay the ipod success into a mass exodus of windows users to the mac platform (i.e. the new low cost mini mac-in-a-box). While it may work on a subconcious level, these gui changes are probably being specifically designed to make windows x-users feel a little more at home.

Getting a bit more windows-esque may not be a bad thing either. XP comes with a couple themes built in, and even a link in the prefs panel to get more. Mac users have to resort to officially unsupported "haxies" just to change things to our taste. While the Mac OS is far superior to Windows, Apple definately has to lose the "we know whats good for you" attitude and open up more options to the end user.

Simplicity and useability are the cornerstones of the Mac, and while this approach has been incredibly successful in Panther, iTunes and all the apple apps. it shouldn't come at the cost of user customization....be it the GUI or functionality of the apps. (Just look at the explosion of shareware specifically designed to customize the user interface to people's taste). Christ, we even have to resort to a "hack" to get a freakin icon in our menubar!

Anyway, apple should get their gui act together, get used to the idea that aqua isn't for everybody, and include shapeshifter (and an OS that OFFICIALLY supports it) in the retail version.

Heck, they can even throw in a copy of Max's XP theme for all their new window converts

[PimPamPet]

@Anubis IV: I could have written that! I feel the exact same way.

[JoE950]

Originally posted by Jay Condon:
Getting a bit more windows-esque may not be a bad thing either.

that whole post was amazing. win people dont know how to use macs.. you have to take a class to rehabilitate after using windows, that crap is hard to break away from at first if you dont already have a mac tutor in house... do you know how hard it is to explain to someone that the system prefs ARE the control panel? people have learned windows, and dont WANT to learn anything else, typically. but with all this virus crap, people are getting fed up. oh well, it seems like aol is the only company trying to advertise their security software.. MAC OS IS SECURITY SOFTWARE.. but i dont think apple could advertise that.. that would just give the dirty little hackers the drive to go buy a little mac mini and start writing malware for us to share!

but its really sad that we have to lose our really cool mac features for their dumbness. oh well, i liked drawers, but some people complain that they take up too much space.. ridiculous.. you can freaking hide the drawer and click the green button giving you more list and message view space. do you honestly think a static sidebar is going to free up space? youll buy a new monitor in a week i guarantee, and thats a good thing, 1024 is a crappy res if your not on a laptop..

i dont understand why a bunch of you are trying to look on the positive side of this being "just a beta" with the "apple still has time to fix the problem" comments... its obvious apple doesnt see a problem with it, and a few "gui" geeks like us are never going to convince them, because they hate us as it is.

apple wouldnt put out all those promotional images just to have to redo them later... the pre 10.2, 10.3 images looked the same from day one to present, so im pretty confident that were going to all go out and buy this patchwork os wether we like the inconsistency or not... its time you just bite your lip, wait for max to update aqua extreme, and let go of your frustration. its not healthy to let a gui get you so worked up.. just walk outside and try to find a patch of clean air before its all gone. internal combustion kills.

i personally dont have a problem with any of it because i know ill end up making changes to it anyways. more things to theme = less fun in theme park, but a more exciting theme. the end.

[resuna]

My biggest problem with Tiger's design is Dashboard.

EVERY Application on the system can be placed anywhere on the screen I want, minimised to the dock, left sitting in the background or stuck in a corner so I can keep an eye on it...

Except Dashboard widgets. If it's a Dashboard widget I have to pop up the Dashboard plane to get to it, and while the Dashboard is up I can't get to any of my regular windows.

Make the Dashboard plane a place where less frequently used apps can be set aside. Maybe make them go there when they're minimized to the dock, I don't know... but having an artificial distinction between regular apps and Dashboard widgets is a step back to the bad old days of Multifinder... I don't like it, I don't want it.

Hopefully someone will come up with a "Dashboard Dock" once it's been around for a while, and you can hang them off the side or off the manu bar or just treat them like normal windows. In the meantime... it's a marketing-friendly travesty of bad human interface ideas.

[LittleHuv]

i as well liked the caps on the earlier version. i think they should incorporate the look of mail system wide. as well and make brushed and unbrushed versions that can be selected. as well as the aqua/graphite variations. if they can include shapeshiter 3 in tiger when it releases it may make for better themes to be added. OS 9 had a theme program built into it. it would make Tiger a much more user friendly OS.

I also like the glossy look on Makki's Tiger '05 theme in the menu selector. not just in the title bar but when you scroll up and down the menus. it reminds me of the look in Max's SmoothStrpies and in the Soft Aqua theme.

And dashboard looks promising, but everyone would benefit from a calaboration with Konfabulator. That way all widgets are cross program compatible. (unless the dashboard widgets are the same as the konfab ones, but i haven't heard that yet.)

and yes the new mail buttons are ugly as they throw off the whole look. making them plastic would make it look better. because i never liked the current mail buttons. and the taking away of the drawer is a good touch. it always did take up extra space.

Any other suggestions to this? But the inclusion of a shapeshifter in 10.4 would be awesome. and then maybe everyone will start to include desktops, cursors, and icons in a theme. then everyone would be happy :-p

[just a poster]

Since everyone is complaining about Tiger UI, let me just chime in:

I miss platinum. Yup.

I really do.

[Super Nova]

anybody have screenshots to backup your arguments?

SuperNova

[Anubis IV]

resuna, your post made me think of an old program I used to use...Logos Writer or something...had a turtle drawing graphics on the page while you controlled it.

Anyway, in it, they had the graphical elements displays normally, but then on the "flip" side of the screen they had all of the command lines that you were executing to make those graphics appear. It could be kinda interesting if Apple implemented something so that windows you minimized just went to the "flip" side of the screen or something. Or maybe, more in line with what you suggested, you could just designate some windows to go to that screen.

Really, the idea is no different than that of virtual desktops (I enjoy my Desktop Manager all the time), it's just a more intuitive way of thinking about it for most people probably. Thinking of it as the backside of the page may help people to visualize what's occurring.

[resuna]

Originally posted by Anubis IV:
Really, the idea is no different than that of virtual desktops (I enjoy my Desktop Manager all the time), it's just a more intuitive way of thinking about it for most people probably.

I use virtual desktops to organise my windows the way I work with them.

You can put (say) Xcode, a terminal, and Toyviewer on one desktop, and a browser and newsreader on another, and iTunes and a desktop game in a third... but mix and match as your needs change.

Dashboard doesn't let you do that. You've got "all your application windows" on one plane, and "all your widgets" on the other. Dashboard is designed primarily to look cool in demos (whoa... check out that splash effect... I gotta get me some of that), and secondarily to best serve the user.

[Makki]

I kinda think the concept/idea for Dashboard is cool however i dunno bout all this though. One word "resources". I think this might cause people to have slow Macs because they so like dashboard but the question is is it bloatware?

Makki

[resuna]

Originally posted by Makki:
I kinda think the concept/idea for Dashboard is cool however i dunno bout all this though. One word "resources". I think this might cause people to have slow Macs because they so like dashboard but the question is is it bloatware?

Makki

It should require fewer resources than Konfabulator, because there's only one runtime... Konfabulator launches a separate runtime for each widget. Other than that, I have no idea. I suspect it'll be possible to overdo the widgets... I ran into that with Firefox extensions: FF started getting laggy until I cut back.

[Makki]

Yea i see your point. Well either way i do believe it is a show off feature myself. Now Spotlight i personally think is genius that i will use for sure.

Makki

[Jasoco]

Originally posted by JoE950:
apple wouldnt put out all those promotional images just to have to redo them later...

Heh. Do you know how many different looks Tiger's had in the past year and a half? Believe me, they will continue changing the UI until it goes Gold.

Also, I hated the blue glossy end caps. And I used to miss the drawer in Mail, but now I kinda think I'll like it. Also, I love the buttons in Mail and wish they'd actually use them system-wide. Sosumi.

The non-glossy Apple logo and blue circular Spotlight menus look beautiful and coincide with the direction they're currently going in. I love them.

But don't get me wrong. I agree they really need to get some consistency going. Even if the entire UI is changed every release, as long as it all matches!

[resuna]

Have a look at the new HI guidelines.

There's no hope for *more* consistency... there's now effectively four window styles: Aqua, Metal, Plastic, and Pro.

[acronym16]

the aqua interface is now a complete mess, so many conflicting styles of windows its unbeleavable. Apple should just make one (possibly two) window styles and keep a consistent use of buttons. They should redesign the entire interface to be consitant in appearance. At the moment it looks like someone has hacked it together and badly at that, apple are supposed to produce great looking products, well then they should extend that into the interface, just choose a style damn it!

apple shouldnt include shapeshifter in there OS, they should create a system interface with varying customizeing parts, like they have now but alot more exstensive, with an apply theme button for a total over haul of the gui with an inbuilt so that you can find all, yes all not some, of the new themes available plus it could inform you if a theme you have is updated. Oh and of course the same for icons aswell.

Dashboard is stupid, not the idea but the way they have tried to pull it off, worse than konfabulator or so it seems, why oh why the hell would you have an itunes controller you could only use when bringing up dashboard? if you had to do that you might aswell just bring up itunes and then you'd get the benifit of seeing what was next aswell. there should be more interaction between widgets and apps so that the actual dashboard is just a feature of the whole system, otherwise its a step back from konfabulator

menubar icons should be more customizable and have the abbility to move them all around rather than just some.

all in all apple needs to revamp there interface, not just tack some new things ontop and say tada!

[TheSpaz]

Why doesn't Apple release a Mac OS X (Consumer Edition) and Mac OS X (Pro Edition). The Pro Edition is for the people who are hard core Mac users that want a TON of options in their OS (rather than simple and bubblie like the consumer edition). Not only more pro controls, but a PRO interface (think about how cool Apple's pro Apps look. Why don't they make the whole OS look like that? I love how small everything in the Pro Apps look because then you can have a smaller screen and still have lots of working space. I just think OS X looks like it was made for kids. Bright blue colors, gumdrop widgets and glossy buttons and shiny this and Aqua that... Come on... it's time for... (drum roll)

INTRODUCING... MAC OS X PRO and MAC OS EXPRESS!

Not sure about the names... but I think a pro OS would be cool... And DON'T anyone dare say "Well what about Mac OS X Server" because it looks exactly like Mac OS X, but with more file sharing stuff... or whatever.

And then Mac OS X Pro could come with The G5, the G4 PowerBooks and Mac OS Express could come with iBooks, Mac Minis, iMacs and eMacs.

What do you guys think?

[Jasoco]

No.

[Caesar2099]

I agree with a lot of your statements, though I don't know why no one's mentioned this: get rid of aqua. I love aqua as much as the next person but the fact is Apple hasn't produced a clear glossy/blue piece of hardware in a long time. I realize the UI is completely different from the hardware, but a beautiful white/G5 metal theme would be perfect and should be completely consistent. Think Max's Milk theme meets Dave Brasgalla's G5 icons.

Aqua is inviting and simple, apple's hardware tends to be show-offy coolness. I just think they should match up.

Edit: oh and Spaz, i don't think so.

[bitfactory]

everyone needs to chill.

the latest version is surprisingly stable - and the release date is a ways off - this can only mean one thing - INTERFACE TWEAKING. i expect them to re-do plenty of UI in the coming months. the features may be frozen - but the UI is relatively easy to change.

you're right - it is a mish-mash of looks... but it is way too early to judge - the damn thing isn't even in beta yet.

[lookmark]

Yeah, folks, relax a bit.

I can't believe that people interested in customizing the UI are complaining about Dashboard, for one thing. It's just about the most customizable, flexible feature imaginable. Not to mention completely ignorable if you don't want to use it.

Interestingly, it seems possible in current builds to "detach" Dashboard widgets from the Dashboard layer into the regular OS X environment (see here, near the bottom of the page). That alone, if it makes it to the final build, will kick UI customizable abilities up quite a notch.

The mix of 4 different window styles meanwhile is frustrating, esp. when one of these styles (yes, brushed metal, I'm looking at you) seems to mean just about anything... but I'm not at all convinced that a mix of metal and Aqua windows is a UI disaster. (Do the wood bars on the left and right edges of Garage Band make the software less usable? No.) I'd simply prefer if a theme, when applied, carried some kind of meaning or intent. Also, I'm hoping (and expecting) that the new "Plastic" style will (sigh) one day replace Aqua, and wipe all those pinstripes clean away.

[Kate]

Originally posted by lookmark:
(Do the wood bars on the left and right edges of Garage Band make the software less usable? No.) ....... I'm hoping (and expecting) that the new "Plastic" style will (sigh) one day replace Aqua, and wipe all those pinstripes clean away.

Funny, how you turn your arguments. Pinstripes do not make your software less usable as well. While those pinstripes and those wood imitating bars and those brushed metal imitating grey landscapes all do not exactly make software unusable they very well make it look irritating.

Not to mention that it looks uncool to have this mixture in front. Quite frankly, this looks so, so Windows-esque.....

[lookmark]

Originally posted by Kate:
Funny, how you turn your arguments. Pinstripes do not make your software less usable as well. While those pinstripes and those wood imitating bars and those brushed metal imitating grey landscapes all do not exactly make software unusable they very well make it look irritating.

Of course pinstripes don't make anything less usable (well, except pre-Panther, where it affected legibility a bit). I'm just a bit tired of them. I'm just happy they've been toned down in Panther, and wouldn't mind going the whole 9 yards.

Irritating is in the eye of the beholder, in any case, no? Personally, I don't find a mix of styles irritating nearly so much as I find a style applied willy-nilly without clear rhyme or reason. A little variation in surface appearance is OK... if it means something.