[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by DaGuy:
Thanks Erik, what about the users listed in the login window. Is it possible to hide users and their pictures without deleting their accounts?

No obvious way to hide them from login window. You can as always just display a login and password window though, but this is obviously not sufficient if you want the nice GUI-login for the rest of your users.

NetInfo might come to your rescue, but don't ask me how to do it. Users like root and cyrus all have an attribute called change with the value of 0, not sure what that does though :/

[DaGuy]

That's a bummer.

Thanks Erik! Great community service you are doing here.

[Simon]

Originally posted by DaGuy:
You see, I have several dummy users for MySQL, Postgres and so on that serve no purpose in being displayed in the login window yet they need to have accounts in the system.

I think the solution to that problem is to give proper user IDs. There were threads on this a while ago. If I recall correctly user accounts with user IDs below 100 don't show up in the login panel.

[clarkgoble]

This actually was something I was hoping Apple would improve with Panther. It would be very nice to have more control over the login window.

I have several users who rarely use my computer. (Basically friends who come over to browse the net occasionally) Yet because OSX sorts things alphabetically they appear before those users who use it all the time.

I'd love to be able to sort users and have generally more control over things.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
This actually was something I was hoping Apple would improve with Panther. It would be very nice to have more control over the login window.

I have several users who rarely use my computer. (Basically friends who come over to browse the net occasionally) Yet because OSX sorts things alphabetically they appear before those users who use it all the time.

I'd love to be able to sort users and have generally more control over things.

Yeah, login window definitly needs some fixing. I have tons of ideas. Small icons, choose users to appear in the list etc.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Stuck application are now both in red and have a (Not responding) message in the Force Quit dialog, which is now a non-modal window instead of a pallette (close with apple-w)

Command-W works on the Force Quit window in Jaguar, too.

-s*

[barney ntd]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
NetInfo might come to your rescue, but don't ask me how to do it.

Hiding a user in the login panel is easy in Jag: just open NetInfo and delete their full name. Users without full names don't appear in the list. There was a thread about this some time ago.

Barney.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Command-W works on the Force Quit window in Jaguar, too.

-s*

Yeah, but it didn't always. Must have been added in the more recent versions. (According to my memory that is)

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by barney ntd:
Hiding a user in the login panel is easy in Jag: just open NetInfo and delete their full name. Users without full names don't appear in the list. There was a thread about this some time ago.

Barney.

That easy huh? Thanks

[pmcd]

Originally posted by Mike S.:
Has Apple enhanced Installer to provide a way to Un-Install packages?

That is something that is really lacking, system updates should be undoable without having to re-install everything.

Nope and it is too bad. I don't know why as the structure is in place.

[THE MAC GOD]

So, whats the deal with not being able to create disk images from a device?

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by THE MAC GOD:
So, whats the deal with not being able to create disk images from a device?

You can't? I'd jot that down to be not-implemented-yet in the current pre-alpha.

On a positive note, finder now mounts toast-disk images directly in finder. The downside with any disk images is that I can't seem to turn off the verifying.

[mark9939]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
The downside with any disk images is that I can't seem to turn off the verifying.

Wow, I didn't even know you can do that in Jaguar. How would I go about turning off the verifying process?

[The Evener]

Does anyone with Developer Previews know what the official requirements are for running 10.3? (I'm hoping they're listed during the install process) I ask because I'm using a 300MHz clamshell iBook, and I'm wondering if it can handle Expos� since OpenGL doesn't work on my machine and of course, I don't have Quartz Extreme -- I'm guessing Expos� uses QE (can't remember what was said from the keynote)?

[JLL]

Originally posted by The Evener:
Does anyone with Developer Previews know what the official requirements are for running 10.3? (I'm hoping they're listed during the install process) I ask because I'm using a 300MHz clamshell iBook, and I'm wondering if it can handle Expos� since OpenGL doesn't work on my machine and of course, I don't have Quartz Extreme -- I'm guessing Expos� uses QE (can't remember what was said from the keynote)?

Expos� works on any machine that can run Panther (all Macs with built-in USB)

[Spheric Harlot]

Expos� works fine on my G3 400 iMac DV.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by mark9939:
Wow, I didn't even know you can do that in Jaguar. How would I go about turning off the verifying process?

You can do it in Disk Copy's preferences. But since there's no Disk Copy in Panther (rather it's some hidden app called DiskImageMounter, I can't access the preference to turn it off.

[himself]

Originally posted by conny:
Thanks for all the great screenshots Erik. I still have a question that nobody has answered yet. Can you share an addressbook between multiple users? In jaguar you can set the addressbook location using the defaults command. The problem is that when you make changes to the addressbook it set you as the owner and nobody else have any access (not even read). So you need to run a little script when you login to set yourself as the owner of the addressbook. And it's important this happens before you open Mail otherwise Mail won't be able to read your addresses to execute the rules. This all works but is not really an elegant solution.
This will not work in Panther anymore since two users can be logged in at the same time and you can't do the login trick.
So my question is how can you share an addressbok between two users in Panther?

I'm not certain if this trick could work, but maybe you could try this:

In the Address Book preferences, you can specify an LDAP server for your contacts. You may be able to set up one user as a server for you contacts to the other users. I haven't tried this myself, so I'm not sure if it will work, under Jaguar or Panther�

[Sharky K.]

is the annoying scrolling with scroll button on mouse fixed with the update?

[cybergoober]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
is the annoying scrolling with scroll button on mouse fixed with the update?

You mean the one where if you're scrolling down with the scroll wheel and you physically move the mouse downward the page scrolls up?

I don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel here at work so I can't check for you. Maybe someone else could though.

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by cybergoober:
You mean the one where if you're scrolling down with the scroll wheel and you physically move the mouse downward the page scrolls up?

I don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel here at work so I can't check for you. Maybe someone else could though.

no when you try to scroll some pages and you turn the scrollbar severel times the scrolling in OS X 10.3 dp goes like fast slow fast slow fast slow fast slow etc...

[BZ]

One thing I have not seen mentioned in Fast User Switching is a locked screen saver.

So, can another user walk up to a computer with a locked screen (in screen saver mode) and select something to switch to another user?

Screenshot?

BZ

[Gene Jockey]

This is still quite the good thread, Erik. Very informative.

OT

Oh, and everyone, the Expos are a baseball team from Montreal.

Exposé is a feature of Panther.

Please type the extra letter. You wouldn't call the OS Panthe, would you?

Just picking a nit, but I saw it three posts in a row.

/OT

--J

[kafka]

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
This is still quite the good thread, Erik. Very informative.

OT

Oh, and everyone, the Expos are a baseball team from Montreal.

Exposé is a feature of Panther.

Please type the extra letter. You wouldn't call the OS Panthe, would you?

Just picking a nit, but I saw it three posts in a row.

/OT

--J

It's people like you what cause unrest.

[jguidroz]

Originally posted by Taipan:
Hi!

jguidroz , did you have any problems installing on the G3? We tried it on a G4 accalerated one, but booting the CD stopped with a panic, the error message said something like "unknown Powermac 1,1". I wonder if the G4 changes the Macs ID to something the installer doesn't recognize (yet).

Nope, no problems at all. That computer is back at my apt, but once I get back there for school, I'll install Panther server on it to try that out too.

[iFix Rene]

I dont know what is better,
'Expos' or 'Exposé' ...

as far I as can see it is called 'Expose'

[iFix Rene]

hi Erik,

did you actually tell the art director thats its
a buggy beta of an upcoming version or did
you just present it as mac OSX, better then 9?


Also do you think its hard for Apple to find
out who and where you are if they would feel
inclined to with those BBQ pics splattered on
your webpage? (dont worry, I am not from
Apple legal...)

[ambush]

Originally posted by iFix Rene:
I dont know what is better,
'Expos' or 'Exposé' ...

as far I as can see it is called 'Expose'

Expos�, rather.

[iFix Rene]

could be, the prefpane is called expose.prefpane though

[Gene Jockey]

OK, this is a pretty straightforward issue, folks:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/panther/expose.html

Back on topic...

Erik, or anyone else here, have you run Panther on a Cube? I have the famous stuttering audio problem where my Sonica dies or the whole USB host controller dies when Airport traffic is high. Maybe they've made some software workaround? Otherwise I'm just going to have to run cable, 'cause right now I can't so much as mount my home directory from the Cube on my TiBook without the Cube going snap-crackle-pop.

--Josh

[Ilja]

Can you provide some relevant mail.app information and screenies as well?

[iFix Rene]

sorry but I can not help saying this;

its pretty silly imo to ask does this work/does
that work etc etc or else I have to buy a new Mac/switch to cable etc etc

its only Dev Preview 1, folks!

and most likely feature INcomplete

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Ilja:
Can you provide some relevant mail.app information and screenies as well?

Sure.

Here's plenty mail-screenies:

Mail with thread

Junk Mail Prefs

Junk Mail Advanced Rules Advanced Rules Menu

Composing Preferences

Viewing Preferences

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by iFix Rene:
could be, the prefpane is called expose.prefpane though

To end this discussion:

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
Erik, or anyone else here, have you run Panther on a Cube? I have the famous stuttering audio problem where my Sonica dies or the whole USB host controller dies when Airport traffic is high. Maybe they've made some software workaround? Otherwise I'm just going to have to run cable, 'cause right now I can't so much as mount my home directory from the Cube on my TiBook without the Cube going snap-crackle-pop.

Sorry. Can't help you there. As stated, I'm running a PowerBook 17".

There are numerous interface troubles abound. In FCP4 and Oculus I can't even see the text in input dialogs. I expect these to be resolved before it hits final though.

I now have an iSight too, and it rocks. I don't have any friends with iChat though, but as a webcam it rocks.

[BZ]

Eric....

Can you do user switching from a locked screen (screen saver)?

BZ

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by BZ:
Eric....

Can you do user switching from a locked screen (screen saver)?

Uhm, it seems they removed the ability to password protect a screen saver.

You can set a password to wake the computer from sleep. You need to enter a admin password to wake it, and you can't switch users.

If you want to lock the screen, and be able to still switch users AND keep your programs running, you can select Login Window from the user switching menu.

[cybergoober]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Uhm, it seems they removed the ability to password protect a screen saver.

You can set a password to wake the computer from sleep. You need to enter a admin password to wake it, and you can't switch users.

If you want to lock the screen, and be able to still switch users AND keep your programs running, you can select Login Window from the user switching menu.

That's not entirely true. If you enable the Keychain menu extra (open Keychain Access, go to the View menu and select "Show Status in Menu Bar") there is an option to "Lock Screen". This activates the Screen Saver with password protection. That's how how I "secure" my machine when I walk away from it.
They did, however, remove the ability to activate the Screen Saver using Hot Corners.

As to BZ's question-- I think I tried that but nothing happened. I'll have to set up another user and try again. IIRC I had two users initially (before I reinstalled). I logged in as my main user, locked the screen then tried to authenticate as the other user. The password dialog went away, but the Screen Saver kept chugging away. I'll try this again though and report back with my findings.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by cybergoober:
That's not entirely true. If you enable the Keychain menu extra (open Keychain Access, go to the View menu and select "Show Status in Menu Bar") there is an option to "Lock Screen". This activates the Screen Saver with password protection. That's how how I "secure" my machine when I walk away from it.
They did, however, remove the ability to activate the Screen Saver using Hot Corners

Lock screen has always been in OS X, and it works the same way when you activate the "Require password to wake machine" feature (as it displays the process as being loginwindow.screensaver or something).

Hot Corners are there, but not activated in DP1. You can see it in Expos� preferences. Active Screen Corners are just greyed out in the Screen Saver-panel. Note that it's screen savers instead of screen effects again (even if they don't actually save your screen).

[wreising]

Originally posted by cybergoober:
That's not entirely true. If you enable the Keychain menu extra (open Keychain Access, go to the View menu and select "Show Status in Menu Bar") there is an option to "Lock Screen". This activates the Screen Saver with password protection. That's how how I "secure" my machine when I walk away from it.
They did, however, remove the ability to activate the Screen Saver using Hot Corners.

As to BZ's question-- I think I tried that but nothing happened. I'll have to set up another user and try again. IIRC I had two users initially (before I reinstalled). I logged in as my main user, locked the screen then tried to authenticate as the other user. The password dialog went away, but the Screen Saver kept chugging away. I'll try this again though and report back with my findings.

Thats not entirely true either. I'm not sure how, but I seem to have set the screen saver to ask for a password upon wake-up every time. I've never used the lock-screen option, so I don't think that's it.

I'm not at my friend's house where the machine with Panther is, so I can't look around to see how this happened, but it did.

As for logging in as another user - I've e-mail Apple about this since it seems so obvious and essential for a good multi-user system.

I did play around with the fast-user switching to see if it was aready there and found an odd bug/feature - I know this is a DP but its worth mentioning anyway so it gets fixed...

I tried simply typing another user name and password from the screen-saver password window and got nothing - fair enough, the other user wasn't logged in. Then I logged in as the other user (#2) and switched back to #1 so that both were logged in and I could switch back and forth.

Then I waited for the screen saver to start (since they have indeed grayed out the hot-corners button) and when the password window came up (still at this point using the machine as user #1) I entered user #2's name and password hoping that it would switch me to user #2.

Instead, Screen-Saver accepted user #2's name and password and let me back into user #1's session. Again, I know this is a DP, but that is not a good thing.

If Apple won't let us log in as different users from the screen-saver password window or the wake-from-sleep password window, then hopefully there will be a way to have a script switch users to a guest account before going to sleep or locking the screen so that someone else can use my machine without my having to be there-log in-and then switch to a guest account.

Other than that - fast-user-switching is really cool.

Bill Reising

[JLL]

Originally posted by wreising:
Then I waited for the screen saver to start (since they have indeed grayed out the hot-corners button) and when the password window came up (still at this point using the machine as user #1) I entered user #2's name and password hoping that it would switch me to user #2.

Instead, Screen-Saver accepted user #2's name and password and let me back into user #1's session. Again, I know this is a DP, but that is not a good thing.

Are you sure that user #2 wasn't an Admin user?

[Simon]

I think Apple should solve this problem as simple as possible.

If the screen-saver is running and a password for another user is entered, the screen-saver goes away and the session gets switched to that of the user the password belongs to.

If the password entered belongs to a user that doesn't have a session running, the screen-saver should go away and switch to the login window showing login progress for the new session.

That would be simple, easy to understand and wouldn't require settings, check-boxes, etc.

Now another question. If user a has a running session, you switch to the login screen, select user a and try to login, what happens? Does it jump to user a's session or does it try to start a new session for user a? I hope the former, because the latter would be a nightmare... Or does it just not allow you to select user a in the login screen's panel (like grey-out the name or something)?

[JLL]

Originally posted by Simon:
I think Apple should solve this problem as simple as possible.

If the screen-saver is running and a password for another user is entered, the screen-saver goes away and the session gets switched to that of the user the password belongs to.

If the password entered belongs to a user that doesn't have a session running, the screen-saver should go away and switch to the login window showing login progress for the new session.

That would be simple, easy to understand and wouldn't require settings, check-boxes, etc.

Instead of all this fuss about locked screen savers, Mac OS X should return to the login screen after a period of inactivity.

That's the most simple way.

Panther has a setting where you can enable a function that logs the user out after a period of inactivity, but I haven't tested it to see if the user is logged out for real or it just goes to the login screen.

Originally posted by Simon:
Now another question. If user a has a running session, you switch to the login screen, select user a and try to login, what happens?

It logs back in - why on earth would you think that it would do something else than that? How else would the user log back in again?

[danengel]

Originally posted by Simon:
If the screen-saver is running and a password for another user is entered, the screen-saver goes away and the session gets switched to that of the user the password belongs to.

This would put the entire system security at risk. Imagine 50 users being logged in, your chances of guessing one right password would be 50 times higher.

[Simon]

Originally posted by JLL:
Instead of all this fuss about locked screen savers, Mac OS X should return to the login screen after a period of inactivity.

That's the most simple way.

Sorry, but I think that's the most stupid way.

I don't want the darn computer to think for me. I paid for it, I say what it does. That's the deal.

My g/f and I share a machine at home. Und Panther we'd both be logged in 24/7. Why the hell should the OS suddenly decide to log me off just because I have gone on a two-day vacation?

That's easy for Apple to implement, but doesn't solve the problem. It's pseudo-intelligent behaviour. Actually it's the kind of thing most Mac users hate to death about Windows.

It logs back in - why on earth would you think that it would do something else than that? How else would the user log back in again?

It logs back in? What's that supposed to mean? You can't login twice to one single session. Are you trying to tell me, the login panel screen switches to the screen showing the session of the user that just tried to log in? My question was basically if the OS prevents the same user form having two sessions running at the same time.

[wreising]

Originally posted by JLL:
Are you sure that user #2 wasn't an Admin user?

Yup, just a regular user - no admin privileges.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Simon:
Sorry, but I think that's the most stupid way.

I don't want the darn computer to think for me. I paid for it, I say what it does. That's the deal.

My g/f and I share a machine at home. Und Panther we'd both be logged in 24/7. Why the hell should the OS suddenly decide to log me off just because I have gone on a two-day vacation?

Panther doesn't log you out - haven't you read anything about fast user switching?

Going to the login screen doesn't quit your apps, close you documents and so on, and just like a password enabled screen saver, you just type your name and password to continue where you left off - you girl friend can even log in and check her mail without you needing to log out.

Originally posted by Simon:
It logs back in? What's that supposed to mean? You can't login twice to one single session. Are you trying to tell me, the login panel screen switches to the screen showing the session of the user that just tried to log in?

Yep. Think of the login screen as a password enabled screen saver with the added feature that you can type another username and password to go to their session (or start the session if they aren't logged in).

[Simon]

Originally posted by danengel:
This would put the entire system security at risk. Imagine 50 users being logged in, your chances of guessing one right password would be 50 times higher.

No, it wouldn't. Here's the deal:

- first of all, if somebody has physical access to your machine, you're doomed anyway. any sys admin will tell you that.

- the list os x offers to log in from is exactly the sam "risk" as here. Basically, it only requires a user's password instead of the combo. You could live with that for the time being (as always you have an option to disable if you're paranoid), so I'm sure you'll survive this.

- if you're really touchy about security, let me tell you a secret. A good passwd is composed of letters, numbers, special characters, etc. mixed all together. Now, we are talking about a screen saver prompt. There is no automatic way of trying millions of passwds with a hacker app. You have to type them manually. Now, are you trying to tell me, that reducing all the possibilities you'd have to check by a factor of 50 is a problem? Baloney.

Exercise: If we have 8bit charcater tables that gives us 2^8 characters to chose from. Assuming we have an 8 digit passwd, how many possible combinations can be made form 2^8 characters (repetitions allowed) spread over 8 places? Exercise 2: Let's assume we only have to guess one out of 50 possibilities to hack the system. Now, how many combinations are there. Exercise 3: Assuming we have trained to type extremely hard and we can type ten 8-digit passwords per second and assumingh the computer validates them and returns to the prompt immediately without any pause, how long would it take us to type all necessary combinations?

- here's another scheme, if that hasn't convinced you. Apple could offer a prompt that says, enter passwd for this user, or enter username/passwd for another session. That way you don't take more of a risk. But, as soon as they do that everybody will moan about the huge amount of typing, that you can't click on list entries, etc...

[JLL]

Originally posted by Simon:
Apple could offer a prompt that says, enter passwd for this user, or enter username/passwd for another session.

They have - it's the login screen with fast user switching enabled.

[Simon]

Originally posted by JLL:
Panther doesn't log you out - haven't you read anything about fast user switching?

I beg your pardon?

Dude, I have read this whole thread and I know how it works. The reason I'm asking has to do with your wording. You were talking about panther logging people out and returning back to the login screen in the same posting.

Logging out is clearly not the same thing as backgrounding the session.

Whatever. Back to the topic.

So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that after some time the session gets backgrounded and Panther returns to the login screen. Fine. What if I want this to happen earlier than the deafult time. Let's say I want to take over the computer, but the other user's screen-saver is still running. Do I have to sit in front of my $3000 G5 and wait until the time is up for the session to be backgrounded?

Ya see. That's why we need the option to force-background a session at any time. We need more flexibility w/o confusing settings, prefs, check-boxes etc.