Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Navy Yard shooting in D.C.; 13 dead so far

Navy Yard shooting in D.C.; 13 dead so far (Page 2)
Thread Tools
Mrjinglesusa
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 01:31 PM
 
Nothing further to add at this point as I'd pretty much echo everything shifuimam has posted already.

I will note that every time there is a gun control debate, it seems that people who have never handled or fired a firearm are the ones in support of banning them. People who are actually familiar with them and how they work understand that it's the person doing the shooting that is the problem - not the guns themselves.

I would remind gun control advocates that there are tens of millions of gun owners in the U.S. who own hundreds of millions of guns. Wouldn't you think that if access to guns were the problem there would be many more gun-related deaths each year than there actually are? Simple math, really. 11,078 firearm homicides in the U.S. in 2010. There are an estimated 270,000,000 to 310,000,000 of privately owned guns in the U.S. That means that roughly 0.004% of guns in the U.S. were used to kill someone, assuming each firearm homicide was carried out with a different firearm. GUNS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. These nuts will find other ways to kill people if they didn't have access to guns.
2.3GHz i7 15" Retina Macbook Pro (Late 2013)
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:08 PM
 
I also want to add, I have not met a single person who hasn't had some foul personal experience with guns, who doesn't enjoy the **** out of shooting them once they try it. I'm talking far lefty, gun-control, granola hippies from hell.

The response is always "wow, I never would have thought I'd have enjoyed that so much".
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:17 PM
 
I concede that I don't know much about guns, I'll back down from those assault rifle vs. hunting rifle ideas...

However, just saying that the US has more insane people and that is the primary source of our gun murder rate doesn't seem right. Why do large Chinese cities with huge ass populations not have these same sort of issues with mentally deranged people, or do they? Are they that much better at diagnosing and treating mental health issues? Mental health issues are a human problem, not an American one.

I don't have any data, but I can't help thinking that the mental health thing is just a piece of this puzzle.

How do we pay for mental health checks/treatment? I doubt people will want to pay for this out-of-pocket, but maybe the expenses of having all of those murders is greater than what it would cost if mental checks were freely available somehow? Thoughts?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The response is always "wow, I never would have thought I'd have enjoyed that so much".
I don't see how this has anything to do with wether or not we're better off without guns.
     
climber
Mac Elite
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Pacific NW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This is the slippery slope argument, but it is also based on paranoia. If there will be no data to support the notion that banning AR-15s had a positive impact, than what cause is there to worry?
The slippery slope argument is valid when even you in this thread state you see not value to the 2nd amendment. Then there is the media that recently was bashing the AR15 and other guns, even though their "facts" were completely wrong. Add to that the countless politicians on the left who will take any chance they can to attack gun ownership. Just like they did this week.

If you want to know why there is a knee-jerk response by gun owners in defending the 2nd amendment every time "sensible gun control" is brought up, just listen to their stated agendas.

It sure seems that even with the drone attacks an all the other force our military can bring to bear in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc., an armed populace seems to put up a significant amount of resistance. I do not think the military would fare any better against the millions of other wise law abiding gun owners here at home. In fact I would bet that if all the gun owners today were united against a theoretical tyrannical government, short of using the nuclear arsenal, they would quickly lose that battle.

Perhaps that is really what those on the left fear most.
climber
     
climber
Mac Elite
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Pacific NW
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
However, just saying that the US has more insane people and that is the primary source of our gun murder rate doesn't seem right. Why do large Chinese cities with huge ass populations not have these same sort of issues with mentally deranged people, or do they? Are they that much better at diagnosing and treating mental health issues? Mental health issues are a human problem, not an American one.
I can only guess, but I would bet if a citizen in china did the equivalent of shooting at some tires on a car, they would be locked up in a very horrible place. Just like we did with mentally unstable people years ago.
climber
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't see how this has anything to do with wether or not we're better off without guns.
People who don't know what they're talking about may in fact be surprised by how much they enjoy learning what they're talking about.

To many, the idea of learning about guns is as appealing as learning about sewage. I posit this is based on preconceived notions rather than actual knowledge.

P.S. Are you a mod now?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
People who don't know what they're talking about may in fact be surprised by how much they enjoy learning what they're talking about.

To many, the idea of learning about guns is as appealing as learning about sewage. I posit this is based on preconceived notions rather than actual knowledge.
I think it's more like to many, the idea of learning about guns is as appealing as learning how to drive stick. You bet there are preconceived notions, but I'm at a loss as to which ones would get blown out of the water by actually using them.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
P.S. Are you a mod now?
Is it cold in hell? No, what gave you that idea?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:46 PM
 
I (accidentally) tried to ignore you, and vBull said "nice try, he's a mod".

Have you gone shooting before?
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Have you gone shooting before?
Can I postpone answering the question so this doesn't become about me?
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I think it's more like to many, the idea of learning about guns is as appealing as learning how to drive stick.
Uh, no. Not even remotely close. I'm... actually... I have no idea how or why... there really are no parallels and likening the two is just weird.

Source: I teach firearm safety and usage to beginners and novices. This includes men, women and teenagers in addition to those that identify as "gun-haters". I also have taught roughly 10 or more people to drive standard transmissions (beginner to intermediate). I have yet to see ANYONE that comes away from learning to drive stick with a smile. It ****ing sucks and frustrates the shit out of you.

edit: Also, people are ****ing terrified when they first handle a firearm. Not so much when learning stick. Nervous, but not really scared. Guess which activity is more likely to get you or someone else killed.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
Source: I teach firearm safety and usage to beginners and novices. This includes men, women and teenagers in addition to those that identify as "gun-haters". I also have taught roughly 10 or more people to drive standard transmissions (beginner to intermediate). I have yet to see ANYONE that comes away from learning to drive stick with a smile. It ****ing sucks and frustrates the shit out of you.
The idea not the actuality. Also, take it up with subego, he compared it to sewage. MIne is fantastic by comparison.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I think it's more like to many, the idea of learning about guns is as appealing as learning how to drive stick. You bet there are preconceived notions, but I'm at a loss as to which ones would get blown out of the water by actually using them.
I'd say that actually shooting a gun will make you completely re-evaluate what you think about how a person handles and shoots a gun.

For instance: the one-handed stance you see in movies is pretty much impossible for normal people, and for skilled shooters, the recoil still poses a self-injury risk because you have so much less control over where the gun goes once a bullet has been fired.

Also: you can't just pull the trigger over and over and over to fire bullets in fast succession. Again, the release of energy following the discharge a bullet is such that there's recoil that your body has to absorb before you can pull the trigger again.

Also x2: aiming is a hell of a lot harder than it looks on TV.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I (accidentally) tried to ignore you, and vBull said "nice try, he's a mod".
I'm betting that the admins made a special vB group for him in order to give him a custom title and stars image, and that's what triggered the lock on ignoring him.

Originally Posted by pooka View Post
edit: Also, people are ****ing terrified when they first handle a firearm. Not so much when learning stick. Nervous, but not really scared. Guess which activity is more likely to get you or someone else killed.
I wasn't too scared. Before my boyfriend took me to the range for the first time, we went over all the parts, the mechanics, where my fingers should be when firing, how to stand, etc. The only thing that made me nervous was the bang-bang going on in the range when we first entered, but that's only because I tend to startle easily.
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The idea not the actuality. Also, take it up with subego, he compared it to sewage. MIne is fantastic by comparison.
Maybe he and I are both retarded. I sort of took it maybe(?) as he intended. To some:
"**** guns. Like totally in the butt. I'd rather learn about SHIT pipes than even LOOK at a gun. Like, oh mah glob."
-lumpy space princess

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I (accidentally) tried to ignore you, and vBull said "nice try, he's a mod".

Have you gone shooting before?
Yeah, I got that too:

"Sorry The Final Dakar is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her."
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Can I postpone answering the question so this doesn't become about me?
Sure.

FWIW, I'm not trying to make it about you, only trying to respond to the question of "what gets blown out of the water by using them".


It's an easy response if you've never gone shooting. If you have, I'm curious as to why you didn't find it barrel of monkeys fun.

Learning to drive a stick is not barrel of monkeys fun, judging by my complete inability to succeed. It's very easy to succeed at shooting a paper target.
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I wasn't too scared. Before my boyfriend took me to the range for the first time, we went over all the parts, the mechanics, where my fingers should be when firing, how to stand, etc. The only thing that made me nervous was the bang-bang going on in the range when we first entered, but that's only because I tend to startle easily.
I guess I could have clarified. Typically, the *bang* is what tends to startle and frighten people. But there is often the "Is this going to hurt? Does the bullet bounce back? Are the casings hot? (answer: YES)"

Guns are scary. They fling hot pieces of ****ing metal really fast and will punch through bone and flesh in a way people can't comprehend. They're to be "respected" in a similar way that a table saw should be. If you **** about, this machine will ruin your day. I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but car analogies just irk me. Primarily because I wish people shared that respect and perhaps exhibited that "healthy fear" when they get into their 2 ton tanks filled with over 150lbs of explosive fuel and proceed to respond to LUL-worthy texts as they cruise at 90 feet per second.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The idea not the actuality. Also, take it up with subego, he compared it to sewage. MIne is fantastic by comparison.
People don't want to learn stick because it's hard. People (often) don't want to learn guns because guns disgust them.

That's the rationale behind the analogy.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by pooka View Post
I guess I could have clarified. Typically, the *bang* is what tends to startle and frighten people. But there is often the "Is this going to hurt? Does the bullet bounce back? Are the casings hot? (answer: YES)"

Guns are scary. They fling hot pieces of ****ing metal really fast and will punch through bone and flesh in a way people can't comprehend. They're to be "respected" in a similar way that a table saw should be. If you **** about, this machine will ruin your day. I don't mean to be overly pedantic, but car analogies just irk me. Primarily because I wish people shared that respect and perhaps exhibited that "healthy fear" when they get into their 2 ton tanks filled with over 150lbs of explosive fuel and proceed to respond to LUL-worthy texts as they cruise at 90 feet per second.
The power tool analogy is a good one. If you use anything with a powered blade and aren't careful, you can easily lose a hand. Much the same way, holding a gun just slightly the wrong way can result in your thumb getting ripped off when the slide flies back to eject a bullet.
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:18 PM
 
I hate to be "that" guy, but seriously, I'm over a thousand times (approximately) more likely to be killed by a texting teenager in a motor vehicle than some nut-job with a Bushmaster. I'm NOT saying "Hey, those dipshits are a bigger problem, fix THAT before you worry about guns." because why NOT make it harder for nut jobs to get Bushmasters. I'm just saying that no one is posting ****ing threads or doing the handwringing in regards to those dipshits. At least they're not getting the same level of attention. I mean, there is at least a mention of firearms in our constitution and only a true loon would argue that they have absolutely zero purpose in a modern society (law enforcement, military, defense, hunting, etc). I dunno. I'll check out. Minds are set.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:22 PM
 
Well, gun control is the political hot button issue du jour, so everyone jumps like rabid dogs onto any incident that they can use to further their political cause.

Nobody gives a shit about real issues and real solutions. Everything western society wants these days is a band-aid for a different problem.
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
The power tool analogy is a good one. If you use anything with a powered blade and aren't careful, you can easily lose a hand. Much the same way, holding a gun just slightly the wrong way can result in your thumb getting ripped off when the slide flies back to eject a bullet.
Eh, to some. But those who lack the perspective will easily dismiss it. I sleep fine next to guns and have for years. Yes they're loaded and I ensure they're stored safely. I lock my table saw up 50ft away from my damn house and will wake up in the middle of the night to make sure it's unplugged. THAT thing gives me nightmares. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop unless you can use your stump to hit the emergency shut-off switch.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:27 PM
 
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
People don't want to learn stick because it's hard. People (often) don't want to learn guns because guns disgust them.

That's the rationale behind the analogy.
OK, so we are both retarded and *I* got your intent. Told you Daker.

New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
pooka
Mac Elite
Join Date: May 2001
Location: type 13 planet
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:33 PM
 
Yeah, I've seen it. The only problem is that they can't reach critical mass due to the additional cost and hassle. Sort of like biometric gun safeties. With time tech such as this will become more viable. Until then, I will continue to live in fear of my dado stack.


New, Improved and Legal in 50 States
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 05:44 PM
 
And that's why God gave us extra fingers.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by climber View Post
The slippery slope argument is valid when even you in this thread state you see not value to the 2nd amendment.
I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth.

I said that the precise extents and limits of what sort of weaponry should be included in the 2nd amendment is vague and unclear. Should private citizens be able to own nukes?

It sure seems that even with the drone attacks an all the other force our military can bring to bear in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc., an armed populace seems to put up a significant amount of resistance. I do not think the military would fare any better against the millions of other wise law abiding gun owners here at home. In fact I would bet that if all the gun owners today were united against a theoretical tyrannical government, short of using the nuclear arsenal, they would quickly lose that battle.
On the ground, sure, but against drone strikes we would stand absolutely no chance.

Perhaps that is really what those on the left fear most.
Yes, because we all love tyrannies! Maybe you should listen to the stated agenda of the left?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:13 PM
 
Sure we would. There are civilian drones. Just put a gun on one.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:20 PM
 
In all of these "us vs. the government" shooty-shooty scenarios I've noticed the people who say "the government wins: no contest" display a determined lack of imagination when it comes to the capabilities of an armed citizenry.

We're diabolically clever, and fight dirty.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:22 PM
 
Not to mention trying to make troops fire upon their own neighbors and family members has to be pretty damned difficult.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:37 PM
 
Exactly. To put it another way, the government's ability to get dirty is not symmetrical when compared to the citizenry.

Repressive government is a bit of a balancing act. You want to stifle the citizenry, but if you do it too hard or capriciously, you create more rebels than you kill.

This works to great advantage for the citizens, especially if they're armed.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Not to mention trying to make troops fire upon their own neighbors and family members has to be pretty damned difficult.
Yes, because there are no examples of gov't troops firing on fellow Americans. It's not like there was an enormous civil war that killed ~750,000 people. Or a massacre at a university.

Give a soldier a half-way good reason to shoot someone, and they will. They've been trained to do just that.

If you don't think that American soldiers would fire upon an uprising that grew out of mass movements like Occupy, or the Tea Party, or yet another militarized apocalyptic group like at Waco or Wounded Knee, you're crazy. They're not just capable of doing it, they have plans in place if they ever have to do it. They plan for everything.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I concede that I don't know much about guns, I'll back down from those assault rifle vs. hunting rifle ideas...

However, just saying that the US has more insane people and that is the primary source of our gun murder rate doesn't seem right. Why do large Chinese cities with huge ass populations not have these same sort of issues with mentally deranged people, or do they? Are they that much better at diagnosing and treating mental health issues? Mental health issues are a human problem, not an American one.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that adults who develop schizophrenia simply don't live long enough to cause any chaos around them, when you're talking about a country as overpopulated and poverty-stricken as China. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that it's much more common in a country like China to simply incarcerate the mentally ill.

China's not exactly a panacea of mental health treatments.

They also control the country's media and cover up incidents, like this one.

I don't have any data, but I can't help thinking that the mental health thing is just a piece of this puzzle.
It's a pretty damn big piece of the puzzle. A lot of rampage or spree killers are severely mentally ill.

The thing is, taking guns away from law-abiding citizens isn't going to keep a paranoid schizophrenic from giving in to the voices in his head and going on a rampage. Instead of guns, he might use pipe bombs, a crossbow, or knives.

This Wikipedia article makes it pretty clear that rampage killings are not unique to the United States, nor are they always carried out with firearms.

How do we pay for mental health checks/treatment? I doubt people will want to pay for this out-of-pocket, but maybe the expenses of having all of those murders is greater than what it would cost if mental checks were freely available somehow? Thoughts?
A lot of recent cases have involved people who were already diagnosed with a mental illness. Diagnosis isn't as much the problem as is the fact that in our efforts to de-stigmatize mental illnesses, we as a society have gone overboard by treating the mentally ill as normal people. Psychotic mental illnesses are dangerous diseases that can easily go untreated (medication exists, but if the person is in the grip of any type of psychosis, there's no guarantee they're going to actually take the medication made available to them).
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Exactly. To put it another way, the government's ability to get dirty is not symmetrical when compared to the citizenry.
Uh, have you taken no notice whatsoever about the number of lies the Yank gov't has told about, say, Iran-Contra, or invading Iraq, or domestic spying, or the CIA selling cocaine to finance black ops?

The American gov't sent Canadian citizens to black sites in Muslim tyrannies to be tortured and refuses to admitting it to this very day.

If you don't think the gov't is prepared to get dirty, you've lost your mind.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yes, because there are no examples of gov't troops firing on fellow Americans. It's not like there was an enormous civil war that killed ~750,000 people. Or a massacre at a university.

Give a soldier a half-way good reason to shoot someone, and they will. They've been trained to do just that.

If you don't think that American soldiers would fire upon an uprising that grew out of mass movements like Occupy, or the Tea Party, or yet another militarized apocalyptic group like at Waco or Wounded Knee, you're crazy. They're not just capable of doing it, they have plans in place if they ever have to do it. They plan for everything.
Straw man.

Shaddim said it's hard. This is compared to people American soldiers are usually ordered to kill, who have brown or yellow skin and speak a different language.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Uh, have you taken no notice whatsoever about the number of lies the Yank gov't has told about, say, Iran-Contra, or invading Iraq, or domestic spying, or the CIA selling cocaine to finance black ops?

The American gov't sent Canadian citizens to black sites in Muslim tyrannies to be tortured and refuses to admitting it to this very day.

If you don't think the gov't is prepared to get dirty, you've lost your mind.
Straw man número dos.

I didn't say the government isn't prepared to get dirty, I said their ability is asymmetrical when compared to the citizenry.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 06:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Straw man.

Shaddim said it's hard. This is compared to people American soldiers are usually ordered to kill, who have brown or yellow skin and speak a different language.
Not a straw man. He says it's "difficult," and I'm saying it's not. It's happened enough to see that it's not hard at all.
     
shifuimam
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
The American gov't sent Canadian citizens to black sites in Muslim tyrannies to be tortured and refuses to admitting it to this very day.
Do you have any sources for this?
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Straw man número dos.

I didn't say the government isn't prepared to get dirty, I said their ability is asymmetrical when compared to the citizenry.
I think you don't really know what a straw man argument is.

The gov't isn't merely prepared, they execute on it regularly.

Far from being prepared to get dirty, any movement will fold like cards at the first signs of opposition from the gov't. After the national guard is in the streets, the airways are flooded with anti-movement propaganda, and fellow citizens are arrested and held without trial, any movement will collapse quickly. Did you see how quickly they moved against the Occupy movement? They were demonized instantly. They flooded the streets with cops. And that was for a peaceful movement.

They are ready to get dirty. Ordinary Americans can't last a few moments when their cell phone won't connect.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sure we would. There are civilian drones. Just put a gun on one.
Civilian unmanned aerial vehicles that drop bombs?
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In all of these "us vs. the government" shooty-shooty scenarios I've noticed the people who say "the government wins: no contest" display a determined lack of imagination when it comes to the capabilities of an armed citizenry.

We're diabolically clever, and fight dirty.

We are, but are there bomb shelters to protect us all?
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Do you have any sources for this?
Please don't tell me this is new information to you. The most infamous case is: Maher Arar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Not a straw man. He says it's "difficult," and I'm saying it's not. It's happened enough to see that it's not hard at all.
With the Civil War example? Those were govenments fighting each other.

No one is arguing it's difficult to shoot your neighbor when your neighbor is shooting you, the problem arises when your rebellion has yet to reach the point of half the country seceding. You can't kill the rebels without causing collateral damage to American innocents. That's what's hard and/or difficult.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
With the Civil War example? Those were govenments fighting each other.
Ha ha hahahahahahahaha! Are you telling me that the Federal gov't and their troops no longer considered the people of the south to be their own citizens? Don't be absurd.

No one is arguing it's difficult to shoot your neighbor when your neighbor is shooting you, the problem arises when your rebellion has yet to reach the point of half the country seceding. You can't kill the rebels without causing collateral damage to American innocents. That's what's hard and/or difficult.
Now you're misrepresenting what Shaddim was saying. He wasn't talking about risking the lives of non-combatants, but firing on their own citizens who have taken up arms against the gov't. He said American soldiers would find it very hard to do that. I'm saying it wouldn't be hard at all.

No one is arguing it's difficult to shoot your neighbor when your neighbor is shooting you
Actually, it seems Americans find that to be pretty easy to do, and very easy to justify. Heck, they clearly find it easy to do when the other guy doesn't even have a gun. "Afraid for my life" are the magic words that justify any and all shootings.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that adults who develop schizophrenia simply don't live long enough to cause any chaos around them, when you're talking about a country as overpopulated and poverty-stricken as China. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that it's much more common in a country like China to simply incarcerate the mentally ill.

China's not exactly a panacea of mental health treatments.

They also control the country's media and cover up incidents, like this one.
The average life expectancy is 73-74 years, and some of these cities are pretty well developed, so let's not frame this like we're talking about some backwards podunk rural villages, if that is what you are trying to do.

You're right though, it's hard to compare a communist society to ours like this since they are very careful to hide their skeletons. Let's look at some other examples, from http://www.gunpolicy.org/:

Rate of gun deaths per 100,000 people

- In 2011 US: 10.3
- In 2011 UK: 0.3
- In 2009 Canada: 0.5
- In 2010 Germany: 1.1

Sorry guys, it just doesn't make logical sense to say that mental health alone accounts for this HUGE ASS difference, there is more to it than that. There are mentally unhealthy people everywhere, exposure to violence everywhere, video games, etc.

It's a pretty damn big piece of the puzzle. A lot of rampage or spree killers are severely mentally ill.

The thing is, taking guns away from law-abiding citizens isn't going to keep a paranoid schizophrenic from giving in to the voices in his head and going on a rampage. Instead of guns, he might use pipe bombs, a crossbow, or knives.

This Wikipedia article makes it pretty clear that rampage killings are not unique to the United States, nor are they always carried out with firearms.

That's my point. Of course it isn't unique, but why is the difference between the US and any other country so massive? Until we get at this question and stop trying to come up with a single answer, I don't think this debate will end. Nobody should be happy with the startling US numbers, and in my opinion nobody should come at this without putting all options on the table to fix this.

The same is true for health care. It's sort of like many Americans don't realize just how incredibly ****ed up things are. I don't know if it is denial, ignorance, or feeling that any comparison to other countries is fundamentally flawed, but these are big problems that need big solutions.

I agree that mental health issues are a part of the problem, but they must only be a part of it.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:40 PM
 
Anyone who thinks the feds aren't ready to fight dirty against their own citizens, just read this story:

Nameless And Shameless: Masked DEA Agents Raid Innocent Women, Refuse To Reveal Their Identities

Two women, innocent of any wrong-doing, smacked around by the cops during a home invasion, and the entire department closes ranks to protect their own from any legal consequences. And that's for some random drug bust gone wrong.

They are prepared to get dirty against you. Don't be a fool.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: yes
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:41 PM
 
It looks like the only country (that I've found so far) with a similar gun death rate to the US is Mexico:

Guns in Mexico: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

So, there are a lot of mentally unstable Mexicans and Americans while mental sanity prevails everywhere else? I don't buy it. There is more to it than this.
     
lpkmckenna
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
It looks like the only country (that I've found so far) with a similar gun death rate to the US is Mexico
That's right, American gun deaths are comparable to a nation currently at war with itself. The only thing missing are the beheadings.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I think you don't really know what a straw man argument is.

The gov't isn't merely prepared, they execute on it regularly.

Far from being prepared to get dirty, any movement will fold like cards at the first signs of opposition from the gov't. After the national guard is in the streets, the airways are flooded with anti-movement propaganda, and fellow citizens are arrested and held without trial, any movement will collapse quickly. Did you see how quickly they moved against the Occupy movement? They were demonized instantly. They flooded the streets with cops. And that was for a peaceful movement.

They are ready to get dirty. Ordinary Americans can't last a few moments when their cell phone won't connect.
Why are you saying over and over the government is ready to get dirty?

Seeing as how I've made it explicitly clear I agree with that, having you say it over and over like it's new information isn't moving the discussion forward.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 20, 2013, 07:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Ha ha hahahahahahahaha! Are you telling me that the Federal gov't and their troops no longer considered the people of the south to be their own citizens? Don't be absurd.
If you had displayed even the slightest interest in what I was actually saying, I would gladly explain how that's not what I'm saying.

Your admonition not to be absurd however pretty much cinches you'd rather make up positions for people and yell at them rather than entertain the actual position.

If you change your mind, I'll be here.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:33 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,