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Colorado shooting during batman screening. 14 dead and over 50 injured. (Page 4)
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OAW
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Jul 26, 2012, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Who said anything about standing? Having cover, higher ground, and the element of surprise (I know where he is, but he doesn't know about me), gives me an advantage. Given the circumstances, he probably couldn't track where I am. Also, in this particular instance the guy seems like a coward, even if I didn't get a kill shot he might turn tail and run back out, or drop and surrender, if I hit him pretty much anywhere.
I suppose I'm curious as to the feasibility of this course of action if you are in a dark theater filled with tear gas without a mask? Visibility is poor at best. And depending on the how far the tear gas has dispersed and its concentration you may be choking with your eyes watering up uncontrollably. It just doesn't seem like the person with no body armor and no gas mask has much of an advantage over the guy who does ... especially if he can't see very well.

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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 26, 2012, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
This is an excellent point. I believe too many have been lured into forgetting that power corrupts. The phenomena you see across the Middle East with governments killing their own en masse, is not one of a barbaric "towel-head" culture incapable of civility and rule of law. It's what happens when government authority remains unchecked and uncheckable for far too long. It's just as much a possibility here as it is there, given the same socio-economic conditions and authoritarian regimes. Whether people want to accept it or not, a people enabled with the right to own and bear arms is a great equalizer and a warning to any despot nation who sees themselves marching through the US. i.e. better not start in the mountains of Colorado or the hills of Texas.
It sounds good when you look at the thinking behind it. If I have it correct, the right to bear arms was put in in case there was the need to overthrow another tyrant or group of tyrants. This sounds perfectly reasonable and I wouldn't be phased at all by a nation of Washingtons and Jeffersons being armed to the teeth. These were educated, intelligent, reasonable men. A nation of Palins, Becks and Bachmans with free and easy access to weaponry is a different prospect altogether.
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subego
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Jul 26, 2012, 03:07 PM
 
I'm pretty sure Waahington and Jefferson had been briefed on the existence of idiots.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 26, 2012, 04:36 PM
 
I imagine so too, but they strike me as quite idealistic and an idealist back then could not have imagined the prevalence of idiocy today.
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subego
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Jul 26, 2012, 06:51 PM
 
IMO, there hasn't been a change in the frequency of idiocy but a gigantic lowering of the barrier to entry when it comes to to widely disseminating one's message.
     
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Jul 26, 2012, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
IMO, there hasn't been a change in the frequency of idiocy but a gigantic lowering of the barrier to entry when it comes to to widely disseminating one's message.
Even if there are the same number of crazies today, I think more of them are integrated into society making them bigger risks. Not too long ago if someone was crazy they were locked up. Today we give them enough medication to get by and they live among us. This works out very well for 99% of the potentially unstable people, but then we see what the 1% does. The lower barrier to entry, as you put it, doesn't help us much either.
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subego
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Jul 26, 2012, 08:11 PM
 
I think you misread my post.

I'm talking idiots, not crazy people.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 26, 2012, 09:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"Stand-up" was a turn of phrase. What I'm talking about is a head-on confrontation. I'm not even poking my head up versus a person with that much firepower, let alone enough to put my arm up and out. To put it another way, if I'm going to fight this guy, I'm going to fight dirty.
You are also comitting a huge mistake if you let an after-the-fact assessment of his bravery be a metric by which you judge the quality of your tactical plan.
Then there's also the gas mask he was wearing. The guy was essentially blind as a bat, no pun intended, I strongly doubt he saw much of anything in that theater. Given all that I've pointed out, I'd feel comfortable firing at him from behind cover.

Also, I'm not making an after-the-fact assessment, I'm sure I'd be shocked to see the guy turn tail and run.
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Shaddim
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Jul 26, 2012, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I suppose I'm curious as to the feasibility of this course of action if you are in a dark theater filled with tear gas without a mask? Visibility is poor at best. And depending on the how far the tear gas has dispersed and its concentration you may be choking with your eyes watering up uncontrollably. It just doesn't seem like the person with no body armor and no gas mask has much of an advantage over the guy who does ... especially if he can't see very well.
OAW
Tear gas settles near the floor, being heavier than air, and he tossed them towards the front row to block the emergency exits. I always go early and sit 8-10 rows up, or possibly in the balcony if there's one available. The gas would bother him more than it would me, in terms of visibility.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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subego
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Jul 26, 2012, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'd feel comfortable firing at him from behind cover.
It sounds like you're snuggling up to a quilt.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 26, 2012, 11:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
It sounds like you're snuggling up to a quilt.
Aren't those awesome? We've bought several from an Amish community here in TN, all handmade, they're truly stunning. Seriously, who couldn't snuggle up to a quilt hand-sewn by someone's sweet old grandmother?

Anyway, panicking doesn't help, save the emotional response for when the situation is over.
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subego
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Jul 26, 2012, 11:55 PM
 
Can they make one out of ballistic Kevlar?
     
Shaddim
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Can they make one out of ballistic Kevlar?
WTF? They're Amish not Branch Davidians.
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
IMO, there hasn't been a change in the frequency of idiocy but a gigantic lowering of the barrier to entry when it comes to to widely disseminating one's message.
Don't forget idiots probably couldn't afford guns 200 years ago.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I just realized, this guy reminds me of Zuckerberg.

He reminds me of Zuckerberg too. My sister said the same thing.

It's his eyes and dorky look.
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Jul 27, 2012, 03:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It sounds good when you look at the thinking behind it. If I have it correct, the right to bear arms was put in in case there was the need to overthrow another tyrant or group of tyrants. This sounds perfectly reasonable and I wouldn't be phased at all by a nation of Washingtons and Jeffersons being armed to the teeth. These were educated, intelligent, reasonable men. A nation of Palins, Becks and Bachmans with free and easy access to weaponry is a different prospect altogether.
I'm more concerned about the Obamas, Pelosis, and Reids to concern myself with the free speech of those who aren't actively legislating or governing the country I live in.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 27, 2012, 03:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I'm more concerned about the Obamas, Pelosis, and Reids to concern myself with the free speech of those who aren't actively legislating or governing the country I live in.

This does not surprise me, but its not the point. If they decided to stage a revolution then they would be legislating. Its the criteria by which people would decide to stage a revolution that should give cause to worry. Frankly if anyone chose to stage one while democracy was still in effect i'd have reservations about it.
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Jul 27, 2012, 07:42 AM
 
Your 2nd Amendment at work.
Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.

Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."

Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."

Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."
No mention of who "his people" are.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 27, 2012, 07:47 AM
 
Was the guy with the knife decked out in kevlar?
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2012, 10:28 AM
 
Hand quilted by Amish grandmothers?
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2012, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Don't forget idiots probably couldn't afford guns 200 years ago.
That's not a bad point, but there's still proof in the pudding. Despite the wide availability of guns, politically motivated murder is uncommon, as are attempted revolutions. We even have heavily armed neo-Nazi types, IOW, flat-out psychos, and they don't go around shooting people with any regularity.

Gun deaths here are mostly domestic, or part of the drug trade.
     
Chongo
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:42 PM
 
Check the look on then Rep. Chuck Schumer.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJFAvA-ZUE[/VIDEO]
     
subego
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Jul 27, 2012, 12:55 PM
 
I'd call that a blank look.
     
hyteckit  (op)
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Jul 27, 2012, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Your 2nd Amendment at work.
Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store
No mention of who "his people" are.
Let me guess.

The guy was holding an AR15, because a handgun isn't enough for protection.

/sacarsm
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Jul 27, 2012, 10:31 PM
 
For the record the AR15 jammed on the 4th or 5th round during the shooting. The carnage was mainly perpetrated with the shotgun and secondarily the hand gun.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 29, 2012, 05:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Gun deaths here are mostly domestic, or part of the drug trade.
Domestic as in people have an argument, lose their temper and because there is a gun to hand someone gets shot? Or Someone picks up a gun and accidentally shoots someone? Both scenarios that reinforce my assertion that that there would be fewer deaths if there was fewer guns lying around or being carried around so this couldn't happen so easily.

If protection is really that big a requirement, maybe it would be a fair compromise that every citizen was allowed one firearm only. Something like that. You certainly can't defend yourself with more than two guns at the same time. Fewer guns and less ammo would also encourage people to get better at using and looking after their guns too.
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subego
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Jul 29, 2012, 10:29 AM
 
People who know each other, in a fight.

I don't think anyone is denying you'd have less gun deaths between citizens if there were less guns. If they are denying that, then they're wrong.

As for "one person, one gun"', the issue is different guns have different uses.

Pistols, for instance, are an inferior choice for almost any situation, yet they're popular because the other superior choices aren't as easily portable.
     
ebuddy
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Jul 29, 2012, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This does not surprise me, but its not the point. If they decided to stage a revolution then they would be legislating. Its the criteria by which people would decide to stage a revolution that should give cause to worry. Frankly if anyone chose to stage one while democracy was still in effect i'd have reservations about it.
So, this whole thing was an excuse to slander conservative talking heads? Eesh. I'd have expected something on Farrakhan before Sarah Palin at least, but that would assume a much more well-rounded imagination and related fear of dissent.
ebuddy
     
Chongo
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Jul 29, 2012, 03:56 PM
 
Talk about slandering. Check out this electronic sign from iDaho. At least they waited a week, unlike the Brady group.

4693/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 29, 2012, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
So, this whole thing was an excuse to slander conservative talking heads? Eesh. I'd have expected something on Farrakhan before Sarah Palin at least, but that would assume a much more well-rounded imagination and related fear of dissent.
If I thought the liberal whack-os were anywhere near as likely to stage a revolution, I might have mentioned them too. I hadn't heard of your boy Farrakhan before. I have no objection to him being added to the list.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ebuddy
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Jul 30, 2012, 02:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If I thought the liberal whack-os were anywhere near as likely to stage a revolution, I might have mentioned them too. I hadn't heard of your boy Farrakhan before. I have no objection to him being added to the list.
So long as we know how seriously to take you.
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The Final Dakar
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Jul 31, 2012, 10:19 AM
 
I don't know why, but I was thinking yesterday, and I have a theory on the motive. And it's simple. Legacy. This guy wants either the attention or the fame. My reasoning:

• Dons full on riot gear. Always memorable.
• Decides to open-fire at a screening of one of the biggest movies of the year.
• Supposedly sent a notebook full of his plans to his counselor the week before. Like he's begging to be stopped.
• Gave up to the police without a fight (Again, I think he wanted to be stopped)

That's my theory, at least.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 1, 2012, 02:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
So long as we know how seriously to take you.
I never heard a democrat complain about the possibility of it not being easy enough to overthrow a government either. At least, not their own government.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Shaddim
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Aug 1, 2012, 08:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I never heard a democrat complain about the possibility of it not being easy enough to overthrow a government either. At least, not their own government.
It seems you don't know who some of the Democrats are on this forum.
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 1, 2012, 08:15 AM
 
Shhhh... it's infinitely more amusing when people are miscategorized.
     
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Aug 1, 2012, 02:44 PM
 
Can we at least consider the possibility that Holmes is either a patsy or part of a sting operation gone wrong? Like when the FBI sets-up the young muslim american 'terrorists' so that they can stop their own plot...
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 2, 2012, 06:05 AM
 
     
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Aug 2, 2012, 02:57 PM
 
The pasty scenario could be something simple like the police just arrested the wrong guy. Maybe his suit of armor was his idea of a make-shift costume? I frankly son't see how anyone could identify him as the person who was doing the shooting if the shooter did in-fact have his face covered. There were many many people in and around the area with various masks and costumes.

As for it being a terrorist sting gone bad. There are dozens of examples of the police helping the 'terrorists; by supplying target ideas and weapons/explosives, right?

I'm not a major conspiracy theorist with respect to this incident but I feel like it is a least possible that things are not as straightforward as they seem.

Also, if he is indeed mentally ill, he should not even be tried - he should simply be treated and released.
     
el chupacabra
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Aug 4, 2012, 11:49 AM
 
I think the gun-ban crowd sometimes forget how easy making guns is. The things were invented what, 700 years ago? About $30 of supplies and duct tape from home depot and any thug can make a zip gun. A couple thousand worth of machinery and you can replicate any gun ever made in your garage. Ban them and people will just be purchasing them from unregulated underground metal shops.

This guy below however did take it upon himself to try and make it a bit more complicated.
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/07/megatron-is-that-you-metal-puz.php
http://www.maxton.com/intimidator1/intimidator1_page4.shtml

4807/width/200/height/400[/IMG]

4809/width/200/height/400[/IMG]

4810/width/200/height/400[/IMG]

I don't think these types of shootings are anything new; we just have the internet to disperse all information anywhere in the world on the fly. I was talking with some coworkers the other day, and I mentioned several shootings, one school massacre 150 miles from my home town, and how they were considered the big deal of the era and "what was the world coming to". None of my coworkers had even heard of these shootings; but they did bring up several shootings in their area that I'd never heard of. Our population is also going up so if you have the same percentage of psychos there's going to be more shootings. But this was all before the internet.
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Waragainstsleep
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Aug 4, 2012, 06:20 PM
 
I'm only aware of three such spree killings in the UK during my lifetime. I'm reasonably sure there aren't any that didn't get national news coverage, its possible there might be one or two I don't remember. In fact, one of the three I counted is more something I heard about than something I remember.

Thats 3 spree killings in 30 years in a population of 60-70 million. Its a much smaller population, but I'm fairly sure that works out substantially less per capita.

We also have plenty of metal workers and workshops. None of the spree killings I mention were carried out with home made firearms. I have heard of shootings committed with reactivated weapons that were previously made safe for ornamental purposes. These were mostly armed robberies, not mass murders.

The first of the three resulted in tighter controls on firearms and a blanket ban on automatic weapons I believe. The second (of which our Tennis number one Andy Murray was a survivor) resulted in the ban of handguns except to a few specially licensed individuals, mostly vets and big game managers so I'm told.

Gun ownership is clearly a factor, but like you say making them isn't that hard and these crazies don't tend to do it. There is clearly other factors at work too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 5, 2012, 12:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm only aware of three such spree killings in the UK during my lifetime. I'm reasonably sure there aren't any that didn't get national news coverage, its possible there might be one or two I don't remember. In fact, one of the three I counted is more something I heard about than something I remember.
Thats 3 spree killings in 30 years in a population of 60-70 million. Its a much smaller population, but I'm fairly sure that works out substantially less per capita.
We also have plenty of metal workers and workshops. None of the spree killings I mention were carried out with home made firearms. I have heard of shootings committed with reactivated weapons that were previously made safe for ornamental purposes. These were mostly armed robberies, not mass murders.
The first of the three resulted in tighter controls on firearms and a blanket ban on automatic weapons I believe. The second (of which our Tennis number one Andy Murray was a survivor) resulted in the ban of handguns except to a few specially licensed individuals, mostly vets and big game managers so I'm told.
Gun ownership is clearly a factor, but like you say making them isn't that hard and these crazies don't tend to do it. There is clearly other factors at work too.
Is this a gotcha?

What other factors are at play?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 5, 2012, 06:26 AM
 
I was thinking some kind of cultural love of guns and/or violence. Open to other suggestions though.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Shaddim
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Aug 5, 2012, 08:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I was thinking some kind of cultural love of guns and/or violence. Open to other suggestions though.
Guns are great for recreation, appreciating them doesn't mean a person loves violence. It's an ingrained part of our cultural identity.
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Aug 5, 2012, 09:52 AM
 
Basketball is great for recreation. Guns are possible for recreation.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Aug 5, 2012, 05:21 PM
 
There are shooting events in both the Summer and Winter Olympics. In any case, the 2nd amendment is not about hunting or recreational sport shooting.
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2012, 06:56 AM
 
...and now we have an alleged neo-nazi shooting people often confused with Muslims. Not a good year.
     
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Aug 6, 2012, 09:14 AM
 
The usual gang is claiming that the Oak Creek shooting is another false flag operation, and that are more to come. ABC is reporting the shooter was in the Psychological Operations unit at Fort Bragg.



That didn't take long Woman opens fire on Detroit river boat
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 6, 2012, 09:31 AM
 


Umm, what?
     
OAW
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Aug 6, 2012, 10:18 AM
 
^^^^^^^^

Surely you aren't surprised that there are those in the Fox Nation crowd who would view such a tragedy favorably? Have you seen the types of racist and intolerant comments that are bandied about regularly in those forums?

In any event, we'll see how the major media outlets decide to cover this story. In all the stories I've read the ONLY mention of the T-word is generally something along the following:

"We are investigating it as a possible act of domestic terrorism," FBI Special Agent in Charge Teresa Carlson said. She defined domestic terrorism as "use of force or violence for social or political gain."
It also reminds me of a thread from last year where this very topic was discussed. I recall a report from the Dept. of Homeland Security that had many of our good friends on the right in a tizzy:

Key Findings

The DHS/Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A) has no specific information that domestic rightwing terrorists are currently planning acts of violence, but rightwing extremists may be gaining new recruits by playing on their fears about several emergent issues. The economic downturn and the election of the first African American president present unique drivers for rightwing radicalization and recruitment.
  • Threats from white supremacist and violent antigovernment groups during 2009 have been largely rhetorical and have not indicated plans to carry out violent acts. Nevertheless, the consequences of a prolonged economic downturn—including real estate foreclosures, unemployment, and an inability to obtain credit—could create a fertile recruiting environment for rightwing extremists and even result in confrontations between such groups and government authorities similar to those in the past.
  • Rightwing extremists have capitalized on the election of the first African American president, and are focusing their efforts to recruit new members, mobilize existing supporters, and broaden their scope and appeal through propaganda, but they have not yet turned to attack planning.

The current economic and political climate has some similarities to the 1990s when rightwing extremism experienced a resurgence fueled largely by an economic recession, criticism about the outsourcing of jobs, and the perceived threat to U.S. power and sovereignty by other foreign powers.
  • During the 1990s, these issues contributed to the growth in the number of domestic rightwing terrorist and extremist groups and an increase in violent acts targeting government facilities, law enforcement officers, banks, and infrastructure sectors.
  • Growth of these groups subsided in reaction to increased government scrutiny as a result of the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and disrupted plots, improvements in the economy, and the continued U.S. standing as the preeminent world power.

The possible passage of new restrictions on firearms and the return of military veterans facing significant challenges reintegrating into their communities could lead to the potential emergence of terrorist groups or lone wolf extremists capable of carrying out violent attacks.
  • Proposed imposition of firearms restrictions and weapons bans likely would attract new members into the ranks of rightwing extremist groups, as well as potentially spur some of them to begin planning and training for violence against the government. The high volume of purchases and stockpiling of weapons and ammunition by rightwing extremists in anticipation of restrictions and bans in some parts of the country continue to be a primary concern to law enforcement.
  • Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.
Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment



OAW
     
lpkmckenna
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Aug 6, 2012, 08:42 PM
 
Regarding the Sikh Temple shooter, I'll say the same thing I always say: the likely cause was being crazy, not ideology. Being crazy often expresses itself in extreme political positions or hyper-religiousity. We should try not confusing the symptom with the cause.

It's the same with the Fort Hood shooter, Jared Loughner, the Colorado shooter, and so on. These people are simply crazy, and their craziness attracted them to both moronic politics and to murder.

That's not to say we can't mitigate the threat of crazy gunmen. We can't cure crazy, but we can do something about a culture saturated with guns, pointlessly hateful rhetoric, and little or no mental health strategy. We can't stop every madman, but we don't have to make his rampage easier.
     
 
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