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Sony VIAO FS775P/H; an interesting read
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SEkker
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Dec 12, 2005, 10:03 PM
 
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ters_FS_Series

List price with 100 GB 4200 rpm HD = $1799

Looks a lot like the ol' Titanium in form factor, 2 GHz Pentium M, even Sony lists battery life at 1.5-2 hours. Has Sony's unpowered firewire port, otherwise nearly identical ports used by Apple since the Pismo.

Apple's new laptops will be directly competing with the next Sony machines using the (same) next generation Intel processors. I wonder what Jobs is going to add to distinguish Apple's laptops from the pack in terms of hardware?
     
mduell
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Dec 12, 2005, 10:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by SEkker
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ters_FS_Series

List price with 100 GB 4200 rpm HD = $1799

Looks a lot like the ol' Titanium in form factor, 2 GHz Pentium M, even Sony lists battery life at 1.5-2 hours. Has Sony's unpowered firewire port, otherwise nearly identical ports used by Apple since the Pismo.

Apple's new laptops will be directly competing with the next Sony machines using the (same) next generation Intel processors. I wonder what Jobs is going to add to distinguish Apple's laptops from the pack in terms of hardware?
A faster hard drive.
A noisy slot loading drive that can't accept nonstandard sized disks.
A video card with dedicated VRAM.
A screen so dull you can't read it outdoors.
Gigabit ethernet.
No modem.
No media card reader.
Powered IEEE1394.
DVI instead of VGA.

(I hope you can tell which ones are just poking fun.)
( Last edited by mduell; Dec 12, 2005 at 10:26 PM. )
     
DavidHossack
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Dec 12, 2005, 10:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by SEkker
http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTE...ters_FS_Series

List price with 100 GB 4200 rpm HD = $1799

Looks a lot like the ol' Titanium in form factor, 2 GHz Pentium M, even Sony lists battery life at 1.5-2 hours. Has Sony's unpowered firewire port, otherwise nearly identical ports used by Apple since the Pismo.

Apple's new laptops will be directly competing with the next Sony machines using the (same) next generation Intel processors. I wonder what Jobs is going to add to distinguish Apple's laptops from the pack in terms of hardware?
As a recent purchaser of a 15 inch PB looking through the specs I see nothing that isn't matched by the smaller, lighter, Powerbook just now except for the intel processor.

OK-it comes with more RAM and HD (very slow though) but overall the Powerbook beats it well for general specification. The PB's Screen is Higher Resolution (but not as bright). On the Vaio there is no gigabit ethernet, FW 800, DVI output (important for connecting to that external LCD), Dedicated VRAM, Bluetooth (that means there is NO WAY to connect wireless mice without an add on-I know the PC world is off to RF land but still...), no iLife and it runs windows which I have to use at work. It makes me whince when I find so many tasks so time consuming on Windows that only take one second on Os X.

I think the future Powerbooks will come off just fine. Must start saving now...
David.
     
Ryan1524
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Dec 13, 2005, 06:45 AM
 
yes, but will the average consumer know that RPM matters as much as GHz or GB, or that screen resolution is different from screen size, or that gigabit ethernet is 10x faster than 10/100 ethernet, or even know what DVI is and have an actual DVI screen? not to mention Bluetooth - i know so many people who have bluetooth in their laptopt sor phones and don't know they have it, don't care, or simply thinks it sucks and are useless. add to that the stigma that windows is THE OS to have, and Sony might actually sell these babies.

it'll always matter to the smaller group of peopel who cares, but the mainstream market normally has NO CLUE. Let's hope Apple can make the new PB really stand out.
Ryan
     
tooki
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Dec 13, 2005, 01:50 PM
 
Considering how well Apple's done with the PowerBooks already (with them being very well represented both in colleges as well as in the hacker community, never mind the Mac stalwarts of graphics and advertising), I don't think we have anything to worry about. Add to that that they're using PowerBooks on Martha Stewart's Apprentice show...

tooki
     
SEkker  (op)
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Dec 13, 2005, 01:55 PM
 
Rumor has them only 2/3 as thick as the current machines -- basically shrinking them like they did the iPods this past year.

Maybe adding the built-in isight and new speed from the enhanced processors will be enough -- I know I'll be buying.
     
mduell
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Dec 13, 2005, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ryan1524
not to mention Bluetooth - i know so many people who have bluetooth in their laptopt sor phones and don't know they have it, don't care, or simply thinks it sucks and are useless.
I consider myself pretty tech savvy, so when I was shopping for a new laptop I got BlueTooth; I figured I'd at least use it with a phone and mouse. I started shopping around and every Bluetooth mouse I found sucked in some way or another; none of them can match, much less beat, my Laser Mouse 6000. Ditto for phones; I can't find a decent GSM phone with Bluetooth without a camera.

Originally Posted by tooki
Considering how well Apple's done with the PowerBooks already (with them being very well represented both in colleges as well as in the hacker community, never mind the Mac stalwarts of graphics and advertising), I don't think we have anything to worry about.
I've also noticed the high representation of Apple laptops (mostly PowerBooks) "in public" (mostly coffee places and computer conventions), even though they're being outsold about 24:1. Perhaps it's a result of their lower average weight compared to PC laptops. All of my roommates have PC laptops, but I'm the only one who actually takes mine off of my desk.

Is graphics and advertizing really still a Mac stalwart? I haven't seen any recent figures, but I've heard whining that Adobe/Quark/etc are catering more to Windows (presumably because thats where the users and money are).
     
tomrock
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Dec 13, 2005, 06:01 PM
 
My wife needs to use Windows and has had three Sony laptops. They've all been pretty nice compared to other Windows laptops which are frequently pretty hideous.

I heard a rumor that Apple had hired some Sony engineers. I think that might be a good thing.
     
tooki
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Dec 13, 2005, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell
1) I've also noticed the high representation of Apple laptops (mostly PowerBooks) "in public" (mostly coffee places and computer conventions), even though they're being outsold about 24:1. Perhaps it's a result of their lower average weight compared to PC laptops. All of my roommates have PC laptops, but I'm the only one who actually takes mine off of my desk.

2) Is graphics and advertizing really still a Mac stalwart? I haven't seen any recent figures, but I've heard whining that Adobe/Quark/etc are catering more to Windows (presumably because thats where the users and money are).
1) I don't think it's weight. I think it's that the PC sales numbers are wildly skewed by the large numbers of PCs that are bough en-masse by businesses. Those are pure work machines, unlikely to be used in public. On the other hand, individuals are snapping up Macs left and right, and those machines do get used in public. A lot.

2) Without a doubt. While Adobe and Quark have made great strides, and the Windows versions now actually outsell the Mac version, most of the PC copies are not used by full-time designers. Professional graphics, publishing and advertising are without the slightest bit of doubt almost entirely Mac-dominated. Graphic artists hate working on PCs.

tooki
     
tooki
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Dec 13, 2005, 10:48 PM
 
Also, I think that while Apple is around 5% of total personal computer sales, its portion of the notebook market is much higher. (Again, businesses buying hundreds/thousands of PCs, mostly desktops, skewing the numbers.)

tooki
     
mduell
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Dec 14, 2005, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by tooki
1) I don't think it's weight. I think it's that the PC sales numbers are wildly skewed by the large numbers of PCs that are bough en-masse by businesses. Those are pure work machines, unlikely to be used in public. On the other hand, individuals are snapping up Macs left and right, and those machines do get used in public. A lot.

2) Without a doubt. While Adobe and Quark have made great strides, and the Windows versions now actually outsell the Mac version, most of the PC copies are not used by full-time designers. Professional graphics, publishing and advertising are without the slightest bit of doubt almost entirely Mac-dominated. Graphic artists hate working on PCs.

Also, I think that while Apple is around 5% of total personal computer sales, its portion of the notebook market is much higher. (Again, businesses buying hundreds/thousands of PCs, mostly desktops, skewing the numbers.)
True, looking around at airports instead of cafes and libraries I see a lot more PCs than Macs, because most of them are business folks.

Absolute confidence, yet no sources. I'd be surprised to see even a plurality for Macs, much less an overwhelming majority.

PC laptops have been outselling PC desktops in revenue sales for a couple years, and as of earlier this year that's also true in unit sales. For Apple's previous four quarters desktops have outsold portables 5 to 4 in unit sales and 6 to 5 in revenue sales. In the last quarter is has turned around with notebooks slightly outselling desktops (in units and revenue), but that's not going to cause the unusually high number of Macs seen in public so quickly. At the end of 2004 Apple's market share for laptops was 4.99% in the US (and 2.93% in the world) which is higher than their share for desktops (2.88% in US/1.75% in world). But they're still being outsold 19 to 1 in the US (and 33 to 1 in the world) just for laptops.
     
Ryan1524
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Dec 14, 2005, 06:22 AM
 
mduell, if you're looking to maxximize the potential of your BT, i would recommend Sony Ericsson phones. they have an amazing system that allowed BT functions to work seamlessly with almost anything, especially something as smart as Salling Clicker on macs.

even back in the days of the T39 ( when Ericsson was still ericsson, no sony), i've used it to remote control my Powerbook with no problems. the key is the accessories menu. SE allowed all the menus and functions to be remotely programmed from the host machine, allowing limitless possibility of functions. these days, i use my T637 for Front Row, iTunes, Keynote/PPT, and DVD/VLC remote. all of the newer SE phones have this same system still implemented, with the bigger screens, it can only get better. (S710a/i, or W900i are great choices) odn't midn the camera, the phone itself is already ridicolously chock-full of features - just think of the cam as a free bonus.

and yes, when the new intel PB's come out, i'll be one of the first in line to buy (after waiting for all-clear on the bugs here on macnn of course.)
Ryan
     
urrl78
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Dec 14, 2005, 10:18 AM
 
Apple put the same ATI 9700 and 1.67 GHZ CPU in their latest revised version. They need to get some Sager techs up in the house, NOT Sony for some of the latest internals IMHO.
But then Sony is so MUCH like Apple; their laptops have such a pretty exterior, but Sony only recently let go of their "memory stick only" philosophy and they are sloooowly creeping along with their GPUs. Reminds me of a one button mouse. Yes, they are birds of a feather and should get along splendedly together.

A 120 GB 7200 RPM HD, nVidia 7800 GTX GPU, 1.86 CPU laptop is a Powerbook I would buy right now. That would have been a classic end to the G4 series. Right now I am left still holding my breath, but only for a very deep yawn...

Here is a read that interested me:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=34090

Here is the product:

http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/n...oductType=5720

I suppose an Apple laptop with those specs could finally run 720p without a hiccup.
     
mduell
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Dec 14, 2005, 05:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by urrl78
Apple put the same ATI 9700 and 1.67 GHZ CPU in their latest revised version. They need to get some Sager techs up in the house, NOT Sony for some of the latest internals IMHO.
But then Sony is so MUCH like Apple; their laptops have such a pretty exterior, but Sony only recently let go of their "memory stick only" philosophy and they are sloooowly creeping along with their GPUs. Reminds me of a one button mouse. Yes, they are birds of a feather and should get along splendedly together.

<snip>

I suppose an Apple laptop with those specs could finally run 720p without a hiccup.
I don't think it would serve Apple well to hire Sager's engineers.
Dimension (H) x (W) x (D) : 1"~1.8"x15.6"x11.5" Weight: 7.5lbs. with Battery
Would not make a good PowerBook.

My 1.86Ghz Dothan can play 720p without a hiccup (CPU clock jumps around between 1066 and 1866Mhz, CPU usage jumps around between 60 and 80%), so I'd guess even a 1.5-1.6Ghz Pentium M (the lowest I can forsee Apple using) would be fine for 720p; a dualcore 2.0-2.3Ghz Yonah (which is on the roadmap for 2006) may even do 1080p.
     
mduell
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Dec 14, 2005, 05:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ryan1524
mduell, if you're looking to maxximize the potential of your BT, i would recommend Sony Ericsson phones. they have an amazing system that allowed BT functions to work seamlessly with almost anything, especially something as smart as Salling Clicker on macs.

even back in the days of the T39 ( when Ericsson was still ericsson, no sony), i've used it to remote control my Powerbook with no problems. the key is the accessories menu. SE allowed all the menus and functions to be remotely programmed from the host machine, allowing limitless possibility of functions. these days, i use my T637 for Front Row, iTunes, Keynote/PPT, and DVD/VLC remote. all of the newer SE phones have this same system still implemented, with the bigger screens, it can only get better. (S710a/i, or W900i are great choices) odn't midn the camera, the phone itself is already ridicolously chock-full of features - just think of the cam as a free bonus.
I used to have an Ericsson and the user interface was craptastic. I've tried a few of the newer Sony-Ericssons and the user interface hasn't improved any.
A camera isn't a free bonus, it's a huge negative. I'm annoyed with how many cell phones, even the low end ones (I've given up on being able to buy a higher end phone), have those low quality cameras in them; they're not good enough to take worthwhile pictures with, but they're enough to prevent me from carrying the phone at work.
     
teknopimp
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Dec 14, 2005, 06:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by SEkker
Looks a lot like the ol' Titanium in form factor...
the japs copied their own design

MacBook 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo | Clamshell iBook G3 366MHz | 22" Cinema Display | iPod Mini | iPod shuffle | AirPort Express | Mighty Mouse
     
iomatic
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Dec 14, 2005, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by urrl78
Apple put the same ATI 9700 and 1.67 GHZ CPU in their latest revised version. They need to get some Sager techs up in the house, NOT Sony for some of the latest internals IMHO.
But then Sony is so MUCH like Apple; their laptops have such a pretty exterior, but Sony only recently let go of their "memory stick only" philosophy and they are sloooowly creeping along with their GPUs. Reminds me of a one button mouse. Yes, they are birds of a feather and should get along splendedly together.
Don't understand this. Sony is like Apple (pretty exterior? Arguably, everything in a PowerBook is well-designed)? Memory Stick? one-button? I hate multiple buttons on laptops (but on mice it's a different exception); can't argue this way or that since it's personal preference. Sounds like you're grasping for an empirical deduction of any quality.
A 120 GB 7200 RPM HD, nVidia 7800 GTX GPU, 1.86 CPU laptop is a Powerbook I would buy right now. That would have been a classic end to the G4 series. Right now I am left still holding my breath, but only for a very deep yawn...

Here is a read that interested me:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=34090

Here is the product:

http://www.sagernotebook.com/pages/n...oductType=5720

I suppose an Apple laptop with those specs could finally run 720p without a hiccup.
So, you want a high-end laptop to play videos? Sigh. OK, got to get back to work…

Just sayin'. (Not a flamebait.)
     
DavidHossack
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Dec 14, 2005, 08:40 PM
 
Don't understand this. Sony is like Apple (pretty exterior? Arguably, everything in a PowerBook is well-designed)? Memory Stick? one-button? I hate multiple buttons on laptops (but on mice it's a different exception); can't argue this way or that since it's personal preference. Sounds like you're grasping for an empirical deduction of any quality.
I agree. When using a trackpad your fingers (the way I use them anyway) could be at either side. I was using the office laptop recently and found the tri button set up a right pain. Never near the right button.

I am not sure of the fascination of HD video. Its not like there is sooo much content in HD, Many people here (in the country-not the boards) still use analogue television etc and VHS.

I am pretty surprised that it is even possible to get a phone without a camera these days...
David.
     
urrl78
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Dec 15, 2005, 09:41 AM
 
I figured someone would rag my Sager suggestion by going directly to the exterior design, not the interior (GPU/HD) like I specified. And I figured someone would assume I want the laptop purely for gaming, instead of just better all around performance. That's funny; I don't remember mentioning anything about gaming...though frankly it would be a nice fringe benefit now that you bought it up. And I figured there are many out there who are still pro-one button mice. I really don't blame you. I still love my stylish rotary telephone in my bedroom. Those "modern" button phones are just too fast; they don't have the right "feel" and I can mis-dial too easily. Those pesky piano keys can be a real pain too; especially the narrow black ones. And don't get me started about my typing skills; two fingers is quite enough for me. Yep, you are so right; two extra buttons on a mouse might just give someone a caniption. So... to each his own I guess. Thanks for the info on which CPU could play HD. Actually my 1.2 Ghz Sony T250 can play 720p smoothly, but I hear the requirements for 720p in a Mac vs a PC are different; correct me if I'm wrong. 720p for PC is not compatable with Mac; at least the PC demos are not in my understanding. Yes? Therefore my 1.5 Ghz cannot play 720p smoothly but my 1.2 Ghz PC laptop can. In fact I think Apple states that it takes at least 2 Ghz CPU to play HD if I am not mistaken. By the way, it's not so much a "fascination", just an annoyance that my 1.5 Ghz Powerbook can "almost" play HD while my little 1.2 Ghz T250 can run thru it like butter with almost half the requirement CPU rating as a Mac, using only 64 MB shared memory instead of a dedicated GPU. But that's not the real issue here:

I see now why Apple didn't think anyone would mind leaving the GPU and CPU the same in their latest revision; as long as I continue to read comments like the ones posted here...there is certainly no need to upgrade. That's right Apple; you can take that to the bank!

Hmmm; Looks like they already have...
( Last edited by urrl78; Dec 15, 2005 at 11:07 AM. )
     
iomatic
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Dec 15, 2005, 01:23 PM
 
There you go extrapolating again.

Let me clarify that no one's brought up gaming, um, you did, to refute your Sager argument; and that comparing one-button trackpad mousing to rotary phones is a bit of a stretch… and I mentioned personally that multi-button mice were indeed my preference, but for a laptop surface, no. Not usable.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you're making crap up. I'm sorry you're bitter your PowerBook won't show up your T250, but as they say, vote with your money. And as always, http://www.apple.com/feedback/.

I still haven't heard a coherent argument deducing empirically what you are saying: which is that Apple's exterior design is all it's good for. Why? I'd like to know. Seriously. All I'm reading is: a fact here, a fact there, anecdote here, none of it tied together, and a conclusion.

I still think the original post with regards to Sony is that the machine is underpowered and limited in features in comparison.

Originally Posted by urrl78
I figured someone would rag my Sager suggestion by going directly to the exterior design, not the interior (GPU/HD) like I specified. And I figured someone would assume I want the laptop purely for gaming, instead of just better all around performance. That's funny; I don't remember mentioning anything about gaming...though frankly it would be a nice fringe benefit now that you bought it up. And I figured there are many out there who are still pro-one button mice. I really don't blame you. I still love my stylish rotary telephone in my bedroom. Those "modern" button phones are just too fast; they don't have the right "feel" and I can mis-dial too easily. Those pesky piano keys can be a real pain too; especially the narrow black ones. And don't get me started about my typing skills; two fingers is quite enough for me. Yep, you are so right; two extra buttons on a mouse might just give someone a caniption. So... to each his own I guess. Thanks for the info on which CPU could play HD. Actually my 1.2 Ghz Sony T250 can play 720p smoothly, but I hear the requirements for 720p in a Mac vs a PC are different; correct me if I'm wrong. 720p for PC is not compatable with Mac; at least the PC demos are not in my understanding. Yes? Therefore my 1.5 Ghz cannot play 720p smoothly but my 1.2 Ghz PC laptop can. In fact I think Apple states that it takes at least 2 Ghz CPU to play HD if I am not mistaken. By the way, it's not so much a "fascination", just an annoyance that my 1.5 Ghz Powerbook can "almost" play HD while my little 1.2 Ghz T250 can run thru it like butter with almost half the requirement CPU rating as a Mac, using only 64 MB shared memory instead of a dedicated GPU. But that's not the real issue here:

I see now why Apple didn't think anyone would mind leaving the GPU and CPU the same in their latest revision; as long as I continue to read comments like the ones posted here...there is certainly no need to upgrade. That's right Apple; you can take that to the bank!

Hmmm; Looks like they already have...
     
mduell
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Dec 15, 2005, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by urrl78
Thanks for the info on which CPU could play HD. Actually my 1.2 Ghz Sony T250 can play 720p smoothly, but I hear the requirements for 720p in a Mac vs a PC are different; correct me if I'm wrong. 720p for PC is not compatable with Mac; at least the PC demos are not in my understanding. Yes? Therefore my 1.5 Ghz cannot play 720p smoothly but my 1.2 Ghz PC laptop can. In fact I think Apple states that it takes at least 2 Ghz CPU to play HD if I am not mistaken. By the way, it's not so much a "fascination", just an annoyance that my 1.5 Ghz Powerbook can "almost" play HD while my little 1.2 Ghz T250 can run thru it like butter with almost half the requirement CPU rating as a Mac, using only 64 MB shared memory instead of a dedicated GPU.
I'm surprised your 1.2Ghz P3 can play 720p smoothly; perhaps I was overestimating the average clockrate of my 1.86 while it was playing or you're using a player other than QuickTime. Apple says you need a 1.8Ghz G5 (2.8Ghz P4) for 720p and 2x2Ghz G5 (2x3Ghz P4) for playing 1080p H.264 in QuickTime. I'm not sure if you're trolling or misunderstanding about the video files for Macs and PCs; they're both playing the same video file with the same player (assuming you use QuickTime on both). It is surprising that in the "Year of HD" (following the "Year of the Laptop") that Apple's best laptop can't play HD (720p) H.264 content.
     
urrl78
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Dec 15, 2005, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by iomatic
There you go extrapolating again.

Let me clarify that no one's brought up gaming, um, you did, to refute your Sager argument; and that comparing one-button trackpad mousing to rotary phones is a bit of a stretch… and I mentioned personally that multi-button mice were indeed my preference, but for a laptop surface, no. Not usable.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you're making crap up. I'm sorry you're bitter your PowerBook won't show up your T250, but as they say, vote with your money. And as always, http://www.apple.com/feedback/.

I still haven't heard a coherent argument deducing empirically what you are saying: which is that Apple's exterior design is all it's good for. Why? I'd like to know. Seriously. All I'm reading is: a fact here, a fact there, anecdote here, none of it tied together, and a conclusion.

I still think the original post with regards to Sony is that the machine is underpowered and limited in features in comparison.

I stand corrected; you mentioned video, not gaming. Doesn't change the fact I am still displeased (not bitter; I still love my 17"). I feel by now it is surprising (as mentioned by a previous poster) and dissappointing; there should be a Powerbook to play HD. Apple dropped the ball on it's last revision, period. Your opinion using the trackpad is understandable. Someone mentioned three button mice; I overlooked the word "trackpad". My fault again. Still most will admit it was a long time before Apple finally came out with a two button mouse. Why so long? Memory Stick; why so long? GPU revisions; turtle slow from both companies. My point, to make it clear is that Sony and Apple are alike in this respect. As to the origional poster's Question in his first post; Apple has done and will likely do little by little in future revisions in my opinion. There are many users out there who are less concerned with speed as with reliablility. The turtle may not win against the hare, but he will reach the goal eventually. Again, too bad there are none in either company with visions like Sager and other companies. Mac users would have a product to cheer about instead of a mild "That's nice".
     
iomatic
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Dec 15, 2005, 04:04 PM
 
OK. Good points. I think you're right that Apple has to catch up, but really, what company doesn't? Balance of power and reliability are probably not entirely mutually exclusive, but the bleeding edge is called that for a reason. There are inherent risks with going all-out. Apple I'm sure has done its best to get as close to the cutting edge without compromising reliability (most important in my book). I think they had to release relatively small updates recently (I'm happy though, moving from a second-gen. 12" to this new 15" -- it's like a whole new world again) because their efforts are going to be focused on Intel-based PowerBooks later next year.

There's no way Intel books will be released first quarter. Not before desktops. Hard to say just what specs are going to be thrown in to differentiate. Faster processor? I think the biggest hurdle is a marketing one: "hey we've got Intel, but, but, we're Apple!" Who's gonna care except Mac-heads? I think Apple has more of a marketing issue than an engineering one (though of course this is a big task in itself.)


Just my HO.
     
   
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