[MPMoriarty]

Is graphics in Tiger really that slow?

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by MPMoriarty:
Is graphics in Tiger really that slow?

With a slow graphics card (and the slow CPU that invariably goes along with one), I would imagine the effects-heavy portions of Tiger are indeed slow. It seems pretty logical. Heck, I've got a better card than that and typing in ****ing Safari is slow on Panther.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Like a snail nailed to the table.

What CPU? Anyone try it with a say a 1.2 GHz G4? Just wondering.

At least it works.

[SMacTech]

Tiger does not appear any slower on my cube or MDD867. Safari 2.0 is a godsend for javascript.

[tomasboudr]

no one ever answered the other poster who asked about a rev A 867Mhz pb with 512+128 ram...

can I expect this to be a dog under the newest tiger build or will it be ok?

[Thinine]

For the last time: Tiger will be as fast or faster on the same hardware as Panther. If you have a DX9-compatible video card, it will be much faster. Features like Dashboard, that have no Panther counterpart, can't be compared. Some graphically intensive Dashboard widgets will be slow on slower machines, but that's inherent in any graphically intensive operation on those machines.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Thinine:
If you have a DX9-compatible video card, it will be much faster.

Why do you say that, besides for specific apps?

[Thinine]

Because a DX-9 compatible GPUs can use Quartz 2D Extreme, which speeds nearly the entire user interface. Therefore, since the CPU doesn't have to spend its time rendering the screen, it can do other, more useful things.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Thinine:
Because a DX-9 compatible GPUs can use Quartz 2D Extreme, which speeds nearly the entire user interface. Therefore, since the CPU doesn't have to spend its time rendering the screen, it can do other, more useful things.

You don't need a DX9 class GPU for Quartz Extreme.

[Thinine]

Quartz Extreme and Quartz 2D Extreme are not the same thing. Read this and other Tiger threads to find out the difference, I don't feel like explaining it now.

[Eug Wanker]

Ah I understand. There isn't much about Quartz 2D Extreme in this thread, except that the 17" PowerBook rev. A isn't supported. I guess that means shaders.

Anyways, back to the Rage 128 question. How bad is Dashboard with a Rage 128, with a CPU that is more than 1 GHz?

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
Anyways, back to the Rage 128 question. How bad is Dashboard with a Rage 128, with a CPU that is more than 1 GHz?

That's going to be hard to answer since Apple never shipped any computer with a Rage 128 (or any card in the Rage 128 family) faster than 500 MHz, to my knowledge.

Not trying to be difficult. I just don't imagine there are a whole lot of Tiger users who have a 1.2 GHz processor but a runt video card like a Rage 128.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
That's going to be hard to answer since Apple never shipped any computer with a Rage 128 (or any card in the Rage 128 family) faster than 500 MHz, to my knowledge.

Not trying to be difficult. I just don't imagine there are a whole lot of Tiger users who have a 1.2 GHz processor but a runt video card like a Rage 128.

I was thinking of the people with the CPU upgrades. The reason I ask is because I'm getting a 1.7 GHz G4 for my Cube, but it's been tough getting a Quartz Extreme capable video card that fits in the Cube, without having to spend $$$.

I'll probably get the updated vid card anyway though of course. I won't get a Quartz 2D Extreme card though. Too much hassle, cost, and noise for a Cube.

[tkmd]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
You don't need a DX9 class GPU for Quartz Extreme.

I believe Eug is right - where does it say that you will need a DX-9 compatible card for Q2D extreme? Apple supplies a chart for cards that are core image supported here but AFAIK core image and Q2DE are not the same requirements.

My question is - if people who are using Tiger on Q2DE supported machines, and the UI speed up is that dramitic then why wasnt this feature advertised like QE was in 10.2?

[cybergoober]

Dashboard on a non-Q2DE card just won't have the neat-o ripple effect when you activate a widget as far as I can tell.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by cybergoober:
Dashboard on a non-Q2DE card just won't have the neat-o ripple effect when you activate a widget as far as I can tell.

The ripple effect is done with Core Image, I don't think it has anything to do with Quartz 2D Extreme. Does anyone know the system requirements for Quartz 2D Extreme?

[tkmd]

Originally posted by Tsilou B.:
The ripple effect is done with Core Image, I don't think it has anything to do with Quartz 2D Extreme. Does anyone know the system requirements for Quartz 2D Extreme?

Good question. I have a feeling its not posted.

[Thinine]

I assure you, a DX9 compatible GPU is required for Q2DE.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Thinine:
I assure you, a DX9 compatible GPU is required for Q2DE.

Apple has not published hardware requirements for Q2DX, but I can assure you that Quartz has absolutely nothing to do with DirectX.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
I was thinking of the people with the CPU upgrades. The reason I ask is because I'm getting a 1.7 GHz G4 for my Cube, but it's been tough getting a Quartz Extreme capable video card that fits in the Cube, without having to spend $$$.

I figured as much. I was just saying, you belong to a pretty small segment of Mac users, and it probably doesn't intersect very much with the other small segment that has Tiger.

Anyway, since the big push for Mac OS X is in the direction of hardware acceleration, you'd probably see as much improvement from a decent graphics card as you have from the new CPU.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Apple has not published hardware requirements for Q2DX, but I can assure you that Quartz has absolutely nothing to do with DirectX.

That's true, but Thinine could nevertheless be right - one of the important features of DirectX 9 is support for advanced pixel shaders. I don't know of any card that supports these pixel shaders but is not a DirectX 9 card. So if Q2D Extreme needs these pixel shaders (just like Core Image), it would be correct to say that it requires a DirectX 9 compliant graphics card, even though Mac OS X does not use DirectX, of course.

[bmedina]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
Apple has not published hardware requirements for Q2DX, but I can assure you that Quartz has absolutely nothing to do with DirectX.

Of course not. But if you follow video cards, a DX9 compatible card signifies a cut off in capability that will be required for Quarts 2D Extreme.

[Chuckit]

How do you know what Quartz 2D Extreme requires? Isn't that really a question of how it's implemented?

[Thinine]

Watch this and you will know what I know.

[himself]

Originally posted by Thinine:
Watch this and you will know what I know.

it... it's all so much clearer now... I can finally see the light... I can see the light!

[Diggory Laycock]

Wow - great video.

[TypeMRT]

Originally posted by Amorya:
They should be there. They store useful information.

Windows leaves such files scattered around too, btw. I sometimes see them when browsing a Windows share on my Mac. But I don't go complaining about them on a Windows message board.


Amorya

Sorry to bring up the subject again, but ever try going to your local Wal-mart/CostCo/Target with the self-serve photo kiosks? Those things barf when they run across a file starts with a . and ends with a valid image file extension.
This is not a sys or network admin complaining just somone who wants to print some digital pictures a local store, without having to press "skip" each time the kiosk can't open the file.

[entrox]

Originally posted by Thinine:
Watch this and you will know what I know.

This is so awesome!

Accelerated Quartz, resolution independence, PixelShox has become Quartz Compositor, FAST QuickTime and several other goodies. I really can't wait for Tiger anymore...

It also reassures me in my decision to plunk down the money for a Radeon 9800 + ADC adapter. I better sell my GF4 before Tiger comes out

[Kate]

Will the Finder inherit much of this to improve on..on..well..everything GUI related? Or is it to stay as the hunchback of MacOS X for more years to come.

I mean things like slow window-redraw, window-resize, window-scrolling etc should improve lots given the underlying hardware is doing Q2DE. But will the Finder do things like proper QT previews finally without undergoing major alterations?

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Kate:
But will the Finder do things like proper QT previews finally without undergoing major alterations?

What's improper about Finder's Quicktime previews?

[Kate]

I have seen many issues, all related to column view:

- sometimes a preview has a stalled image while the sound is playing
- switching between movies leaves artifacts of the previous movie
- the control bar sometimes hangs
- the control bar is not displayed/garbeled sometimes
- sometimes Finder hangs for seconds until a preview starts playing(even with very small movies)
- sometimes the Finder loads the preview and starts playing (sound is on) but picture stays black
- Finder "beachballs" for seconds after the play button has been hit and then switches the slider to the end and stops

this is all rather erratic and not a general behaviour of a certain movie. At least not according to my experience. Otherwise the same movies play fine. Most of the time even in column view. And it is not a general lack of memory.It happens on different machines.

[Chris Grande]

One thing that I would really like to see is a slightly better Trash can. What I mean is that it needs the options of Empty Trash right there. Also the option to restore an item would be very helpful to put an item back from where you deleted it from. I was thinking about the UI for this and after seeing the UI for burnable folders that seems like it would work very well. Have a red bar (like the burnable yellow one) and put the Trash functions in that. Empty Trash | Restore Item, hold option and Empty turns into Secure Empty. I think this would really simplify the trash can, anyone?

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Chris Grande:
One thing that I would really like to see is a slightly better Trash can. What I mean is that it needs the options of Empty Trash right there.

It is right there. Both in the menubar and right from the Trash icon in the dock.

[MacGorilla]

Right click or hold option down and you can empty the Trash.

[bmedina]

Originally posted by Kate:
- sometimes a preview has a stalled image while the sound is playing
- switching between movies leaves artifacts of the previous movie
- the control bar sometimes hangs
- the control bar is not displayed/garbeled sometimes
- sometimes Finder hangs for seconds until a preview starts playing(even with very small movies)
- sometimes the Finder loads the preview and starts playing (sound is on) but picture stays black
- Finder "beachballs" for seconds after the play button has been hit and then switches the slider to the end and stops

None of that will be helped (much) by Q2DE. That's mostly just poor programming of the Finder, which we've been complaining about since 10.0.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Right click or hold option down and you can empty the Trash.

Or just click-and-hold.

[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by Kate:
I have seen many issues, all related to column view:

- sometimes a preview has a stalled image while the sound is playing
- switching between movies leaves artifacts of the previous movie
- the control bar sometimes hangs
- the control bar is not displayed/garbeled sometimes
- sometimes Finder hangs for seconds until a preview starts playing(even with very small movies)
- sometimes the Finder loads the preview and starts playing (sound is on) but picture stays black
- Finder "beachballs" for seconds after the play button has been hit and then switches the slider to the end and stops

this is all rather erratic and not a general behaviour of a certain movie. At least not according to my experience. Otherwise the same movies play fine. Most of the time even in column view. And it is not a general lack of memory.It happens on different machines.

And then there is the ever-popular Finder marks previewed files as "in use" so they cannot be deleted from other windows...

[Chris Grande]

I knew I should have added this to my above post: I know about the Finder -> Empty/Secure Trash, I know about the Empty Trash in the Action Button and I'm fully aware of the Dock menu. I know every damn keyboard shortcut. There better?

ok... gah. I was just saying that it would be better for new people to put it right there in the window, right there (Action Button Doesn't Count!). Along with adding the functionality of being able to selectively delete things and return items back to there original location. I hadn't thought of a good place to put these buttons, and the burnable folders ui looked good to me.

Being a person who works in IT and is currently dealing with people who don't know the Mac OS from a toaster, they keep asking for things or where stuff is that Windows has, and its not stuff like wheres the Start button is its more of features that they use all the time and are just amazed the Mac can't do. "You mean I can't right click in the 'Finder' and select print?" "You can't return things back where they were, only the last item?"

[bmedina]

IIRC, Classic Finder had a function called "Put Away," which returned an item in the trash to where it was previously. I can't find any such option in OS X's Finder.

Of course, in almost four years of using the OS X Finder, I've never needed that functionality.

[Kate]

Originally posted by bmedina:
None of that will be helped (much) by Q2DE. That's mostly just poor programming of the Finder, which we've been complaining about since 10.0.

I was aware of that, but my hope is based on speculating about the necessary rewrite to use the new tech by those parts of the Finder that access them. But I think they might use the old API. It'll provide enough of the new features.

[Catfish_Man]

Originally posted by Kate:
I was aware of that, but my hope is based on speculating about the necessary rewrite to use the new tech by those parts of the Finder that access them. But I think they might use the old API. It'll provide enough of the new features.

The Finder definitely uses Quartz, so very little rewriting should be necessary. They mentioned that caching a few graphics related things can improve performance, but it'll use Q2DE without them doing a thing (unless the code is even more horribly broken than I think).

[Targon]

Originally posted by entrox:
This is so awesome!

Accelerated Quartz, resolution independence, PixelShox has become Quartz Compositor, FAST QuickTime and several other goodies. I really can't wait for Tiger anymore...

It also reassures me in my decision to plunk down the money for a Radeon 9800 + ADC adapter. I better sell my GF4 before Tiger comes out

I don't think u will see a resolution Independent UI in Tiger. The speaker mentioned that Apple are getting ready to move to a Resolution Independent UI. They mentioned they still have alot of work to do on this. Perhaps this wont come into fruition until the next major OS upgrade ie 10.5.

Would be nice to see this scaling slider for the UI as a system preference. However the slider in the demo was not realtime. It appears the guy moved the slider to a new setting then hit enter for it to become effective. Would be nice for the OS to scale inn realtime just like when a user scales the size of icons on the desktop.

[PrettyBoyClone]

Originally posted by Targon:
I don't think u will see a resolution Independent UI in Tiger. The speaker mentioned that Apple are getting ready to move to a Resolution Independent UI. They mentioned they still have alot of work to do on this. Perhaps this wont come into fruition until the next major OS upgrade ie 10.5.

Would be nice to see this scaling slider for the UI as a system preference. However the slider in the demo was not realtime. It appears the guy moved the slider to a new setting then hit enter for it to become effective. Would be nice for the OS to scale inn realtime just like when a user scales the size of icons on the desktop.

Resolution independence will be in present in Tiger, but will not be a user feature (no checkbox in prefs) and will be switched off by default.

[entrox]

Originally posted by Targon:
I don't think u will see a resolution Independent UI in Tiger.

I'm aware of that and I don't really need it with my lowly 17" LCD, but it is good to know that it will be ready when 23+ inch monitors will become more common (e.g. affordable).

The demo was quite bugged anyway.

[Fusion]

Does anyone have a link to the resolution independent GUI demo that you are all talking about? This is probably the feature that I am looking forward to the most, even if it doesn't come out till 10.5 or 10.6. I hate chunky everything looks on my powerbook and I could really use more real estate.

[Thain Esh Kelch]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
That's going to be hard to answer since Apple never shipped any computer with a Rage 128 (or any card in the Rage 128 family) faster than 500 MHz, to my knowledge.

All iMac G3's were shipped with the Rage128. Up to 700 Mhz.

[Targon]

Fusion -> http://stream.qtv.apple.com/events/j...m_sotu_ref.mov

[Targon]

I imagine Tiger's Core Image plugins could be used to allow us to assign various transition effects (disolves, fades, 3D sweeps etc) to the dialog box's that pop up or even open/save dialogs ;-) maybe even colored transparent dialogs like the dashboard widgets.

Then all we need is the ability to assign synth sounds to the transition effects and we finally will have an futuristic UI like many computers in sci fi movies.

Been dreaming about this for years ;-)))

[dfiler]

I'll have to go on a crusade once 'resolution independent' APIs are upon us. To me, the word 'independent' seems to mean the exact opposite of what is intended by this common phrase.

Current display architectures are what I would consider resolution independent. Set your resolution to whatever you want but the software will take no notice. Display calculations are completely independent of screen resolution.

Perhaps it's the ambiguity of 'independent'...
Depends on whether someone is thinking in terms of pixels or in terms of length measurements? Which is the resolution independent from?

Instead, I hope that a more descriptive phrase is adopted, perhaps:
"Scalable resolution GUIs"
or
"Sizeable GUIs"
Damn... neither of those are satisfying either.

Tiger, an OCD grammarian geek's nightmare.


Edit: Ok, a couple more candidates:
"Zoomable GUI"
"Zoomable Interface"
Yeah, i know they don't exude the same nerdocity as 'resolution indepenedent display architecture'.

[TETENAL]

The current interface is resolution dependent because it relies on the fact that the display resolution is fixed at 72 dpi. If the display is not 72 dpi, then the UI is drawn incorrectly (for example 12 point text is no longer 12 points high).