[davesimondotcom]

So there have been demonstrations the past few days in the US against the proposed immigration legislation.

Now there are large scale protests in France over youth employment rules and a strike in the UK over pensions.

Seems like if you aren't protesting and/or striking today, you just aren't one of the cool kids!

[Stradlater]

Down with this thread.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Down with this thread.

What's wrong with this thread?

I find it interesting that there are all of these protests all over the place at the same time.

[Stradlater]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

What's wrong with this thread?

Sheesh. Just protesting for the sake of it.

[brassplayersrock²]

heh, me thinks he was poking fun dave. you said if your not protesting and/or striking today, you just arent one of the cool kids. strad wants to be a cool kid. (edit: strad you were just very barely slightly quicker in hiting the send reply button than i was, 12 noon on the dot and i was like 12 noon plus 4 seconds)

i find it interesting as well that all around the world people are protesting and or striking for one reason or another.

[Spliffdaddy]

As far as a tightening of immigration laws - that's long overdue and has overwhelming support. I blame Dubya for dropping the ball.

Protests in France? Geez. They should start naming them like they do hurricanes - so we can track how many there have been this season.

I wouldn't be surprised if the French started protesting all the protests.

Ah well, it's good for the auto manufacturers. They should sponsor the next protest.

[stevesnj]

The borders in and out of the US should of been closed for a year after 9/11 to clean house of all illegals in the country. But Bush needs Saudi buddies here to finish some business deals so thats why that didnt happen.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

So there have been demonstrations the past few days in the US against the proposed immigration legislation.

Explain new rules please.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Now there are large scale protests in France

So what's new? It's the French national sport.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

and a strike in the UK over pensions.

It wouldn't be a proper Labour government in the UK without a big bunch of strikes.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Sheesh. Just protesting for the sake of it.

I didn't get it until AFTER I posted a response to you. Since then I've been answering calls about our free ad offering our extra bed and moving it into someone's truck!

Sorry - sarcasm doesn't translate well online!

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

As far as a tightening of immigration laws - that's long overdue and has overwhelming support. I blame Dubya for dropping the ball.

Personally, I think the far right should wake up and realize that the President is right on this one. Without a guest worker program, this country would be crippled for a while!

The President is coming to this issue very much from the middle, and I think it's the right place to be. There has to be a stricter control over our borders, but some of the proposals overlook the fact that our economy is at least partially driven by the labor of these immigrants.

To not have a guest worker program is just stupid. I think that those who come here on such a program, follow the rules and want citizenship, should be given a clear track for becoming Americans, too.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Explain new rules please.

The proposal that passed the house contained three main changes:

1. Making being in the country illegally a felony
2. Raising penalties for employers for hiring illegals
3. Creation of a fence on about 1/3rd of the U.S./Mexico border

The Senate has, in Committee, already taken out the language about making being in the country illegally a felony. It would remain a misdemeanor.

They have also softened the language that some feared would make it a crime to help someone who was an illegal. People feared that churches, good sams, etc. would be criminalized.

The thing that the President wants that the far right doesn't want is a guest worker program. They also would like all the illegals deported and for people to have to re-apply for entrance. Which simply won't work.

One thing I would like to see in legislation of this sort that will (probably even on here) be accused of being racist or something is to make English the national language of the US.

When my family arrived in this country a few generations ago, they spoke Norwegian and German. But they all learned English, they felt it was part of becoming an American.

If we continue to have to print everything in every possible language, we'll just fall under the weight of it all.

There isn't any racism to this, it's simply fact. This country runs on English as a language. All of our laws are written in English. Our Constitution was written in English. I see no problem with English being the official language.

Nobody would accuse the French of racism because they want French to be their national language, would they?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

The proposal that passed the house contained three main changes:

1. Making being in the country illegally a felony
2. Raising penalties for employers for hiring illegals
3. Creation of a fence on about 1/3rd of the U.S./Mexico border

The Senate has, in Committee, already taken out the language about making being in the country illegally a felony. It would remain a misdemeanor.

They have also softened the language that some feared would make it a crime to help someone who was an illegal. People feared that churches, good sams, etc. would be criminalized.

The thing that the President wants that the far right doesn't want is a guest worker program. They also would like all the illegals deported and for people to have to re-apply for entrance. Which simply won't work.

Arh. Thanks for the explanation Dave, much appreciated.

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

One thing I would like to see in legislation of this sort that will (probably even on here) be accused of being racist or something is to make English the national language of the US.

When my family arrived in this country a few generations ago, they spoke Norwegian and German. But they all learned English, they felt it was part of becoming an American.

If we continue to have to print everything in every possible language, we'll just fall under the weight of it all.

There isn't any racism to this, it's simply fact. This country runs on English as a language. All of our laws are written in English. Our Constitution was written in English. I see no problem with English being the official language.

Nobody would accuse the French of racism because they want French to be their national language, would they?

Agree entirely. Watching my hard-earned being used by the BBC to give the news in forty-three languages makes my blood boil a little, so I'm down with "when in Roman, speak Latin".

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Agree entirely. Watching my hard-earned being used by the BBC to give the news in forty-three languages makes my blood boil a little, so I'm down with "when in Roman, speak Latin".

Dang, 43 languages? So much for the Queen's English.

Can I tune to the Cockney News at 11?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Dang, 43 languages?

Ooops. It's only 33 now. I'm positive it used to be 43, so they must have dropped a few.

Apparently this is "Pashto", whatever that is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pashto/index.shtml

I'm being forced to pay for that crap (through my mandatory licence fee)... ...maybe I should protest or something!

[cpt kangarooski]

davesimondotcom--

The proposal that passed the house contained three main changes:
One thing I would like to see in legislation of this sort that will (probably even on here) be accused of being racist or something is to make English the national language of the US.

When my family arrived in this country a few generations ago, they spoke Norwegian and German. But they all learned English, they felt it was part of becoming an American.

And they learned it without it having to be an official language, which rather undercuts your argument. I think that we should be pragmatists; let people speak whatever the hell they want to speak, and let the government respond to the wishes of the people rather than dictating to them. English is one of the most widely used languages in the world already. It doesn't need your help.

So yes, I have to wonder why you think that we need to provide artificial help to something that is so spectacularly successful.

If we continue to have to print everything in every possible language, we'll just fall under the weight of it all.

And if you continue to make crap up, this discussion will go nowhere. Who the hell prints "everything in every possible language?" Certainly not the US government. It prints some materials in other languages, but the vast majority of its business is conducted in English simply because there's not much call for anything else.

Nobody would accuse the French of racism because they want French to be their national language, would they?

Actually, the French (and the Québécois) are dicks when it comes to language. You may wish to read up on things like the OQLF, the Académie Française, this, or this (similar things happened in Ireland and Scotland), etc.

I'm not saying that special care should be taken to bring languages into parity. But rather that the government should not care about one language over another. It should do its own business in an efficient manner which serves most people (which means most things will tend to be done in English so long as that's the most common language in the US), while not ignoring the needs of non-English-speaking citizens and residents.

It's not particularly different than how government documents are ordinarily printed with ink. Since most people can see, that's fine. Some people can't, and need braille documents. They should be helped out, but that doesn't mean we need to deal with the expense of printing everything everywhere in both systems. We merely need a default position with exceptions on an as-needed basis.

Ultimately though, I think that official language policies are intrusive, are contrary to principles of good governance, are harmful to cultural diversity (which should permit cultures and languages to wax and wane on their own merits), and so frequently are motivated by discrimination or give rise to discrimination that it is difficult to credit proponents with good intentions and difficult to see a good outcome even if there are good intentions.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

And if you continue to make crap up, this discussion will go nowhere. Who the hell prints "everything in every possible language?" Certainly not the US government. It prints some materials in other languages, but the vast majority of its business is conducted in English simply because there's not much call for anything else.

I'm not making crap up at all. Try Google - search for "multilingual ballots."

For just an example, Orange County, CA voters have a choice of 5 languages on their electronic ballots. The publication of non-English language voting materials cost O.C. taxpayers $596,919 for the 2004 and 2005 elections.

This is just ONE COUNTY in California.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by cpt kangarooski

Ultimately though, I think that official language policies are intrusive, are contrary to principles of good governance, are harmful to cultural diversity (which should permit cultures and languages to wax and wane on their own merits), and so frequently are motivated by discrimination or give rise to discrimination that it is difficult to credit proponents with good intentions and difficult to see a good outcome even if there are good intentions.

Actually, official language programs are about uniting a country's citizens under a single language for the purpose of helping everyone succeed.

"Cultural diversity" should not supercede the other needs of a nation's citizens. This nation was once a melting pot, where people brought aspects of their culture to their new home, but didn't insist on keeping EVERY part of their culture. They also adapted their culture with elements of other's cultures to create one larger culture.

Melting pot. Not a stew.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

I'm not making crap up at all. Try Google - search for "multilingual ballots."

For just an example, Orange County, CA voters have a choice of 5 languages on their electronic ballots. The publication of non-English language voting materials cost O.C. taxpayers $596,919 for the 2004 and 2005 elections.

This is just ONE COUNTY in California.

So you're saying citizens who don't speak English well should be discriminated against when voting?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by itai195

So you're saying citizens who don't speak English well should be discriminated against when voting?

Well, considering that the citizenship test itself is given in English...

This is why I think they need to have a designated official language. Otherwise, some Trekkie is going to demand to vote in Klingon, because, dammit, that's his right!

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Apparently this is "Pashto", whatever that is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pashto/index.shtml

I'm being forced to pay for that crap (through my mandatory licence fee)... ...maybe I should protest or something!

You have a short memory if you've already forgotten who the Pashtun people are.

I'd expect you to take at least a casual interest in the wars your soldiers are dying in - after all, you're paying a HELL of a lot more for them than for BBC's international service.

BTW, having foreign-language media available is very much a political issue, especially since this here interweb thingy is actually used by people outside of Britain (I herd Al Gore invented it on a Macintosh in Switcherland or some other socialist™ hideout and some other socialist™ computar).

Making your culture more accessible to people living in other countries is a good thing.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Well, considering that the citizenship test itself is given in English...

This is why I think they need to have a designated official language.

...but then ofcourse if that were to happen the official language would have a good chance being spanish rather than english.

[cpt kangarooski]

davesimondotcom--

Well, considering that the citizenship test itself is given in English...

Why do you assume that all non-English speaking citizens are naturalized?

"Cultural diversity" should not supercede the other needs of a nation's citizens.

I concur. However, it should not be attacked either. If people want to use a language other than English, I say we let them. We don't have to cater to them, but there's no reason that we have to oppose them either. It will work out on its own.

Actually, official language programs are about uniting a country's citizens under a single language for the purpose of helping everyone succeed.

Except of course that that's not why anyone ever adopts them.

Melting pot. Not a stew.

Metaphor. Not to be taken to silly extremes.

In any event, voting is one of the things where the government should take pains to ensure that all enfranchised citizens can participate. So long as you're somehow capable of voting, you should be able to. This is the heart of our political system and it is far too important to be denied to anyone for as petty a reason as language. Frankly, I think that our democratic institutions are too important to be worrying about cost. To do so would be penny wise and pound foolish. Instead, they need to work, and work well, which often isn't that expensive anyhow.

I'd also point out that literacy tests have been widely abused in the past in order to preserve racial segregation, and that there are justifiably extremely good reasons to presume against them.

The best you can come up with, meanwhile is silly nonsense about Trekkies.

[Spliffdaddy]

In order to vote you must be a naturalized citizen. In order to be a naturalized citizen you must pass a test that's written in English - and you must be able to speak English as well.

[cpt kangarooski]

Spliffdaddy--

In order to vote you must be a naturalized citizen.

Untrue. I vote regularly, and I am not a naturalized citizen. I was born in the US. Ditto for my parents and grandparents. Most US citizens, in fact, are native-born. We are not subjected to any test or requirements.

Honestly, it's pretty sad that you didn't know this.

[OldManMac]

To digress a bit, what's really happening in the U. S. is that Hispanics will be a majority by around 2010, so a few rich old white men are running scared, trying to put the genie back in the bottle, as it were. When people feel threatened, they do all kind of strange things.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika

You have a short memory if you've already forgotten who the Pashtun people are.

Don't think I ever knew in the first place.

Originally Posted by analogika

I'd expect you to take at least a casual interest in the wars your soldiers are dying in - after all, you're paying a HELL of a lot more for them than for BBC's international service.

Nope. I'm paying the princely sum of $0.00 towards the upkeep of "my" soldiers. Tax avoidance is good. However, I can't avoid paying the BBC for their tripe if I require a TV.

Originally Posted by analogika

BTW, having foreign-language media available is very much a political issue, especially since this here interweb thingy is actually used by people outside of Britain (I herd Al Gore invented it on a Macintosh in Switcherland or some other socialist™ hideout and some other socialist™ computar).

I have absolutely no clue what you just said there, nor why you said it. I assume that it was an attempt at humour or something. But I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by analogika

Making your culture more accessible to people living in other countries is a good thing.

Why?

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by KarlG

To digress a bit, what's really happening in the U. S. is that Hispanics will be a majority by around 2010, so a few rich old white men are running scared, trying to put the genie back in the bottle, as it were. When people feel threatened, they do all kind of strange things.

I think you are missing the point.

I don't care what the color of the skin of someone is who is a fellow American! In fact, I think that if people want to come to this country and earn citizenship, and we have a place for them, a job for them, etc., then I'll welcome them with open arms.

That, as far as I know, is exactly the position of President Bush and probably a majority of Congress. Those who don't favor such a plan simply view giving a road to citizenship to someone in the country illegally as rewarding them for not following the given path.

There is nothing wrong (or racist) with wanting to make sure it's less than trivial for someone to get into this country illegally.

[ghporter]

Ballots in Texas (at least in the parts I've lived in) are in both Spanish and English-because there are a large number of people who are more comfortable operating in Spanish than in English. It happens; some families in San Antonio seem to take pride in NOT teaching their kids English-or at least not allowing them to speak it at home. They are mortally offended when they run into a professional (let's say a nurse) who doesn't speak Spanish while providing a professional service (say nursing care) to them or their family members. It's happened to my wife more than once while caring for premature newborns.

Anyway, most naturalized citizens are way ahead of natural born citizens in terms of knowing how the country works, particularly in the area of how the government is set up and how it really runs. They have to pass a high stakes test on the subject, while most kids would rather be doing anything but sitting in that Civics class...

My big complaint about this whole thing is that Mexico supports OPEN immigration. The problem with this? The Mexican government wants its citizens to get all sorts of benefits from being in the U.S., but send their hard earned cash back home. And oh by the way, their government OFFICIALLY thinks that not offering services, not acting effectively to combat corruption within any part of the government and not giving a rat's tail about what happens to the millions of Mexicans who can't leave because they have to stay and support their families is a Good Thing. They feel that the U.S. should take care of the people they do not choose to do anything for.

There is a huge problem in Mexican culture; corruption at all levels of society is one thought away; you cannot trust the police, the city government, or anyone in any other office to obey the laws of Mexico. Recently there was an incident where a group of people who appeared to be part of the Mexican Army fired on U.S. Border Patrol agents who were persuing suspected drug trafficers as they tried to flee south. Of course the Mexican government denies that it could possibly be their Army involved in this (even suggesting it was OUR Army), in spite of the fact that that Army is implicated in a large "dirty war" operation that lasted for decades-no corruption there!

[itai195]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Well, considering that the citizenship test itself is given in English...

This is why I think they need to have a designated official language. Otherwise, some Trekkie is going to demand to vote in Klingon, because, dammit, that's his right!

As cpt kangarooski pointed out, children born here are automatically citizens and don't need to take the test. They may speak a foreign language at home and get a crappy English education in school. Offering ballots in their language helps give them a fair opportunity to vote and honestly it doesn't really cost that much compared to the overall cost of an election.

As for naturalized citizens, it's still not so simple. My parents took that test in English and passed, but I'm still sure they would have preferred ballots in their native language at least for the first few years thereafter. My mom had a terrible time getting proficient in English, and she'd been taught in school since the 3rd grade.

To be fair, I think both sides need to take a chill pill when it comes to the language issue. The 'learn English or leave' crowd is insensitive to the needs of immigrants. And immigrants really shouldn't be so offended when they can't find someone who speaks their language in public, this is an English speaking country after all. I'd be frustrated in a foreign country if nobody spoke English, but then I'd kind of expect that to be the case...

[moodymonster]

protesting is democracy in action.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I guess Cesar Chavez was one of those "white racists".

http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_02_27/article.html

In 2006, we automatically assume that America’s self-appointed Latino leaders—the politicians, campaign consultants, media mouthpieces, and identity-politics warriors—favor ever more immigration. Their influence and income flow from their claim to represent vast numbers of Hispanics, so the more warm bodies they can get across the border, the larger will be the ethnic quotas upon which their careers are based. But the union leader who is honestly battling for the welfare of his members—as opposed to the boss merely attempting to maximize the number of dues-paying workers—wants less competition for them.

Chavez’s essential problem was straight out of Econ 101, the law of supply and demand. He needed to limit the supply of labor in order to drive up wages. Just as American Federation of Labor founder Samuel Gompers, himself a Jewish immigrant, was one of the most influential voices calling for the successful immigration-restriction law of 1924, Chavez, during his effectual years, was a ferocious opponent of illegal immigration.

And more white racists:

In 1969, Chavez led a march to the Mexican border to protest illegal immigration. Joining him were Sen. Walter Mondale and Martin Luther King’s successor as head of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Ralph Abernathy.

Like today’s Minutemen, UFW staffers under the command of Chavez’s brother Manuel patrolled the Arizona-Mexico border to keep out illegal aliens. Unlike the well-behaved Minutemen, however, Chavez’s boys sometimes beat up intruders.

The rotten pay and conditions suffered by today’s workers—three laborers died of heat stroke last summer—are a matter of supply and demand. The government can pass regulations, but if there are enough jobseekers on the spot to undercut their fellow workers, laws hardly matter.

Economist Martin has noted, “We have essentially privatized the immigration policy of this country, and left it in the hands of California’s growers.” The benefit to the consumer is minor. Martin notes that about 7 percent of the price paid by shoppers for strawberries goes to the pickers. In return, the public picks up the tab for the workers’ medical care and their children’s schooling. A National Academy of Sciences commission estimated in 1997 that an immigrant without a high-school degree ultimately costs America $100,000 more than he contributes.

Amazing. Even Cesar Chavez understood what this is really all about, before being 'recast' by the left as some pro-illegal icon. If a person really gives a squat about the actual workers, they'd know that the more of them that pour across the border, the lower it drives wages, the higher it drives competition for work, the more corrupt businesses LOVE it because workers become expendable, and the more the individual workers get shafted.

But the dim-bulbs of today who can't think beyond a bumper sticker have actually positioned themselves right into being mouthpeices for supporting slave labor and corrupt businesses, the destruction of wages of the lower class (and the more and more the middle class) because they'd rather play the race card to score cheap poltical points. Truly shameful.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

protesting is democracy in action.

I disagree. Protesting (as in marches and the like) is almost always a minority holding the majority to ransom. Protesting via petition to your representative is democracy in action.

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I disagree. Protesting (as in marches and the like) is almost always a minority holding the majority to ransom. Protesting via petition to your representative is democracy in action.

true. I suppose having to protest marks a failure of democracy. Or a failure of argument.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

protesting is democracy in action.

No, but voting is.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

true. I suppose having to protest marks a failure of democracy. Or a failure of argument.

True.

<nods with arms folded in a kind of gangsta rapper pose>

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Doofy

True Dat.

<nods with arms folded in a kind of gangsta rapper pose>

Fixed.

[Y3a]

They should have made all those protesters show their proof of citizenship. No proof, no release. It's a slap in the face of those doing it by the book. Our politicians on both sides of the isle have sold us out. I suggest the representatives pay be used to offset the individual states losses for having to deal with the illegals. The illegals are earning the true minimum wages. Close all the businesses that hire illegals too. let the employees (legal ones) sue the former owners in civil courts for the lost wages. take everything from the former business owners.

Immigrants should have to wait 10 years before getting a chance to get US benefits. Illegals should NEVER get benefits.. NEVER!.. Why should the a$$ canyon president of Mexico be allowed to ship his welfare problem up here? Gun a few hundred of them down as they cross the border and they may think a little harder about coming here.

We need to increase the number of border patrol troops, and increase their firepower. let 'em use armed drone aircraft! The stupid illegals should be protesting against their OWN government for the economic problems cause by their corrupt politicians!

[davesimondotcom]

The one thing I don't understand about the protests in the US is the two signs/banners I have seen most often.

The first says, "I am not a criminal." Well, if you are in the country illegally, you are committing a crime. It's not all that well enforced, but it's still against the law.

The second is the Mexican flag. I see this a lot. What are these people trying to say? "I want to stay in the US, work here, enjoy the benefits of the country like sending my children to school here, most of the time not paying taxes, but I LOVE MEXICO!!"

I don't know if I have a point other than I thought these things were ironic.

[TheWOAT]

Ive never understood why Americans (of Mexican heritage) glorify Mexico so much and claim to be flag waving Mexicans when real Mexicans consider them to be just Americans. I would bet that over 95 percent of the protestors were Americans since most illegals have a day job. The gang signs in the crowd was a dead give away that those people were Americans, not illegals....crazy chicanos.

[loki74]

This is what I think, ands its really more rhetoric than anything, so dont expect a really snappy defense; just my opinion, feel free do disprove any of these points

-We need to militarize the border and enforce the laws already in place
-Unfortunately, we can't deport ALL illegals due to the scale of the problem and other implications (ie the jobs/economy thing). But we should do our best.
-We should NOT grant amnesty, but we should provide a (not easy) means by which current illegals can become legal citizens (due only to the aforementioned impracticality of deporting everyone).
-Current illegals should be charged--they ARE violating the law, after all.
-Current illegals should have backround checks run on all of them.
-There should be an English requirement
-They should be on file, pay taxes, etc.
-It should be illegal to send more than x amount of dollars or x percent of income to Mexico. I know it sounds discriminatory, but they're really the only ones that are draining our economy like a leech. That's gotta stop.

probably some other stuff too, but whatever...

[itai195]

Originally Posted by loki74

-It should be illegal to send more than x amount of dollars or x percent of income to Mexico. I know it sounds discriminatory, but they're really the only ones that are draining our economy like a leech. That's gotta stop.

$202 billion trade deficit with China

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

The second is the Mexican flag. I see this a lot. What are these people trying to say? "I want to stay in the US, work here, enjoy the benefits of the country like sending my children to school here, most of the time not paying taxes, but I LOVE MEXICO!!"

You know who I hate? Those damn Irishmen and their St. Patrick's day parades, four leaf clovers, and Irish flags. Or what about all those pizza joints with the Italian flags? Are they American or what? Either you're with us or you're against us [/sarcasm]

It's just about connecting with your heritage and identity. I'm not sure it's something that non-immigrants would understand.

Originally Posted by Y3a

Close all the businesses that hire illegals too.

Who's going to work those jobs, then? You? I'll pass.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by itai195

Who's going to work those jobs, then? You? I'll pass.

Yeah of course, we never had American farmers or farmhands in this country. Never had American construction workers. No American ever took care of a child. No restaurants in the US ever existed until they had an illegal slave labor force to wash the dishes. No American ever constructed anything, maintained a road, or did electrical work. No American ever washed a car.

So what’s next?

Twenty years from now we’ll hear how no American EVER assembled a product, manufactured anything, delivered anything, sewed anything, worked in a store in any capacity, sold a product, did plumbing or anything related to construction, etc. etc. etc.

Keep making excuses for cheating businesses and they’ll happily keep gutting wages and turning entire industries into “…jobs Americans won’t do.”

[loki74]

Originally Posted by itai195

$202 billion trade deficit with China

oranges and apples dude. I mean, draining out economy as in, making money here and sending it out of the country. That, I think, is wrong.

If private companies in the States and/or the US Gov't wants to trade with China, thats fine. This thing with Mexico is kinda like outsourcing from within... I don't really like that.

but for that matter I agree, that trade deficit could do to be a bit less...

[itai195]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Keep making excuses for cheating businesses and they’ll happily keep gutting wages and turning entire industries into “…jobs Americans won’t do.”

Keep putting words in my mouth and maybe you can debate with yourself and I can sit back and watch.

I didn't say no Americans ever did this work, just that few Americans want those unskilled jobs today. They don't support our standard of living. If the US had a guest worker program coupled with tougher border control and enforcement, don't you think farm-labor wages would rise? Unfortunately rising wages could just as easily end up turning entire industries into "...jobs Americans won't do, because they've been outsourced to other countries with cheaper labor." That's something I don't have an answer for.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by itai195

Keep putting words in my mouth and maybe you can debate with yourself and I can sit back and watch.

I didn't say no Americans ever did this work, just that few Americans want those unskilled jobs today. They don't support our standard of living.

Right, because as has been pointed out a million times, the ONLY reason "Americans won't do those jobs today" is because an army of illegals vying to take over those jobs has driven the going price into the toilet, much to the delight of the businesses illegally employing them. You "won't do your job" either, if your employer figures out how to get someone to do it for a third of what he now pays you, and millions of your fellow Americans dismiss the entire profession thereafter as 'unskilled' and 'something Americans won't do'.

Keep thinking it's just unskilled work. Last anyone checked, construction, mechanics, child care, etc. were skilled professions.

If the US had a guest worker program coupled with tougher border control and enforcement, don't you think farm-labor wages would rise?

Most guest worker programs thus far are a joke- they rely on fantasyland measures that are generally laughable- like the idea there's any incentive what-so-ever for illegals to submit to the plans. They still don't address the main problems. "Tougher border control" won't work without actually going after the businesses that are hiring illegal labor, thus seeing to it that the supply of illegal labor remains high. Actually enforcing border controls, and going after businesses that cheat everyone by using illegal labor, is the real solution. So long as people give a free pass to the businesses by stupidly regurgitating THEIR invented hype that allows them to get away with what they are doing, then there will be no political will to actually tackle the problem, or stop its spread into other industries.

Unfortunately rising wages could just as easily end up turning entire industries into "...jobs Americans won't do, because they've been outsourced to other countries with cheaper labor." That's something I don't have an answer for.

Possible, but unlikely in many cases- you can't outsource everything. When one needs to build a road or a house, you need the work done where the road or house is. You can't wash a dish from a US restaurant in India, or service a US hotel from there. Or raise someone's American kid for them in China. No one will drive their car around the world to have it washed or fixed either.

Outsourcing is another problem in itself, but it's separate from this one. What we basically have with illegal labor, is IN-HOUSE "outsourcing" of jobs. It'll continue to encroach on more and more industries -just like actual outsourcing- so long as people stupidly play along and allow businesses to (gleefully) do so.

[tie]

Crash is right. This has nothing to do with outsourcing. The phrase "jobs Americans won't do" is ridiculous. Americans won't take those jobs because their wages are depressed. Without illegal immigrants, wages would rise and Americans would take those jobs again.

On the other hand, I think Americans gain more than we lose overall. Cheaper is always better. Cheaper labor abroad (outsourcing) is good for our economy and so is cheaper labor at home.