[OAW]

I've been following this thread for a while. The conclusion I've come to regarding the OT is that it's a mixture of valid points ... along with ethnic over-generalizations and a fixation on irritating behavior done by immigrants that apparently doesn't produce the same level of angst when done by the natives. More so the latter. That about sum it up?

OAW

[Click170]

Having the identity of your country change doesn't have to be a bad thing, and I object to the phrase 'losing their identities' as used in the topic. Evolving, sure. Growing, sure. But 'losing'? No.

Need you be reminded, the USA was _founded_ by immigrants?

Nevertheless, one thing I think we _should_ do is ensure that said immigrants aren't sacrificing our safety and security by bringing their (in most cases) more lax rules of the road with them. If you want to drive when you arrive in this country, then pass the driving test. Don't bring your license from your last country and say "Well they let me drive, therefor you should too", that's incredibly ignorant of the fact that most countries have different laws, and customs, regarding driving.

That said, I also think all drivers should be re-tested periodically regardless of a clean driving record. And more importantly, requiring a mandatory driving test of anyone involved in an accident.

I happily admit that not all white people are good drivers, but I find it interesting that of many of the times I've nearly been hit by people, only a small percent of them were white. Say what you want about racism, correlation v causation, generalization, and stereotypes; to me, my experiences speak for themselves.

Edit: And I'm saying this as a pedestrian and transit-user, I don't drive. Who'da thunk that a pedestrian would have a different view on things as compared to a driver.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I rather they adapt to western culture or not come here at all.... How hard is it to fracking toss garbage into garbage cans...... Why the hell do you leave for a better life if your not going to do things differently..

Damn those dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Damn those Asian people with the poor eyesight and bad driving skills.

Damn those Asian people for not learning English and not following our laws.

Oh no. No racism there.

You know which ethnicity has the highest drunk driving rate? White folks.
You know who commits the least amount of crime? Asians.
You know which ethnicity has the highest college graduation rates and college admission rates? Asians.

I don't know why you insist Asians don't follow the law or put up the effort to learn English.


As for dirty and disgusting, it's more of a poor vs. rich issue rather than a culture thing. Poor areas tends to be more dirty and disgusting. Poor people are use to it.

Have you been to Singapore? The cleanest f*cking place in the world.

Are you saying Hawaii, with one of the largest Asian population in the US, one of the dirtiest states in the US?

[OAW]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Have you been to Singapore? The cleaning f*cking place in the world.

I haven't been but I wouldn't doubt it. Isn't that the place where they cane that ass if you get out of line? Probably best to just put that gum wrapper in your pocket over there.

OAW

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I haven't been but I wouldn't doubt it. Isn't that the place where they cane that ass if you get out of line?

OAW

Yup. Big fines for spitting and tossing gum on the street. An American was publicly cane for graffiti which was widely talk about here in the US over 10 years ago.

[Click170]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Yup. Big fines for spitting and tossing gum on the street. An American was publicly cane for graffiti which was widely talk about here in the US over 10 years ago.

Case in point. An American didn't pay attention to, or thought he was above the laws of the country he was in, and was punished for it. We need more of that around here.

[Click170]

I don't agree that non-white people litter more or are a dirtier people. Conversely, IMO the opposite is true. More often then not I see teenagers litter than any other group.

And as for smelly, come on. Everybody has BO. I'm a guy, I work hard, and Omg, I occasionally stink too. I say get over it.

[Click170]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Damn those dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Damn those Asian people with the poor eyesight and bad driving skills.

Damn those Asian people for not learning English and not following our laws.

Oh no. No racism there.

Please lookup the definition of racism, your doing it wrong.
If he was saying these things merely because of their ethnicity, sure that's racism. Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Click170 

Please lookup the definition of racism, your doing it wrong.
If he was saying these things merely because of their ethnicity, sure that's racism. Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist.

All I'm hearing is that White cultures are superior to the dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist? Really?

Oh based on my observation, Asians are dirty and disgusting, blacks are dumb, whites are rapists, and mexicans are lazy. My culture is superior and they should all follow my rules. No racism there.

Where are his facts that Asians don't follow the law or don't bother to learn English?

Considering Asians commit the least amount of crime and have the highest college graduation and college admission rates.

If anything, Asians are taught to obey the rules and the importance of education.


Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other race

I'm pretty sure Athens beliefs matches 1 and 3 of the definition of racism. Athens cannot tolerate those dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures. Asians must adopt and obey the rules set by western white culture.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All I'm hearing is that White cultures are superior to the dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

India is apart of Asia, so technically they're all dirty and disgusting asians.

[The Final Dakar]

Tsunamis are nature's bath.

Too soon?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Athens: how are your experiences and generalizations actionable? What would you suggest we do with them?

Recently the Canadian citizenship test was changed to make it harder. I thin it was in 2007. Afterwards the failure rate sky rocketed to 80% which results in a automatic review. Because it was sucking up resources they lowered the passing threshold to bring it back down to a 70% passing rate. So before you needed 80 out of 100 questions to pass its now like 60 questions to pass.

I want that stopped. Put it back high and make them reapply every year until they can pass it on there own.

To be fair I think the biggest failure is our own.

What I would like to see is a entire over haul on how any one gets permanent living status here or citizenship.

Any one wishing to get permanent status here or citizenship should be required to complete a 2 year course which teaches functional English, our laws, our tax system, education system, medical system. Rights and responsibilities and expectations. Something that is perhaps 2 hours a night over 20 months. Not just teaching how these things work but why and how its important to the overall picture. IE Tax is collected to fund our schools, roads and medical systems. With out the taxes we wouldn't be able to offer all the support systems and infrastructure you didn't have back at home. Things that seem so very basic for us need to be taught and tested on. Womans rights, there quality status, how you cant discriminate against some one. For some one from Afghanistan the concept that woman are equal and have rights could be hard to understand. Why you can't pore oil down the drain, how it affects rivers and the health of people and environment. Just saying you can't isn't enough. Some one from a poor city in India might have no concept of the larger environmental picture. I think this would be extremely beneficial to wifes and woman from countries they have no rights to fully understand our laws. English and or French if in Quebec must be taught to a functional level that a interpretor isn't required for anything. They have to be able to read labels and understand them. Signs and postings. Contracts and forms. Add $4000.00 to the cost already required to immigrate here to pay for this. ALL permanent resident applicants must take a complete drivers exam and pass un-aided by a interpreter. If they can't read the test and can't follow the examiners instructions on the written they can't qualify for a license. This includes every one, including Americans, Australians and every one else. I would expect some one from Seattle moving here would have zero problems passing the test. Some one from China who's test is a straight line can you turn on car drive straight and turn it off would, and thus would need driver training to be required to take the driving test again.

I think there should be a probational period that permanent status and citizenship can be revoked for failing to obied by our laws. 3 Years of living here + a 80% plus pass on the required education (which includes every one, Americans, Europeans) and functional use of language as the minimum to write the citizenship test. If passed, additional 3 years of probation with any major offence leading to a review or x number of minor offences leading to a review which could result in revoking permanent status and citizenship and the choice of starting the process over again or leaving. During the probational period Immigration can interview co-workers and neighbors and professionals associated with the person on probation. They can audit banking information to asses any tax fraud. Any legal infractions from j walking to something major is required to be forwarded to the immigration office. If no major problems after the 3 years they are a full citizen.

After all this they should understand our laws, our ways, woman should know they are equal in our society and how to deal with issues. Every one should have functional English and be competent drivers. Hope they make use of everything available to them and be productive and contributing members of society.

Changes I would make in the work place is require the only spoken and written language to be English (French in Quebec) while performing duties in the work place. Co-workers of the same cultural background would not be allowed to conduct business or perform duties in say Punjab. Even if 100% of the staff are all the same group, its not fair to customers and co-workers if they can't understand what is being talked about. Customers and employees can complain and the complaint would have to be dealt with or a fine to the business. If there is a clear discrepancy with the make up of a work force, IE a 711 with all Filipino employees and a Filipino manager then any customer or job applicant can complain for a review of the locations hiring practices. If found to be inconstant the manager could be fined personally along with the business. Im against affirmative action but also against specialty preference too.

I would also make it a requirement that all immigrant children have to go through the normal education system. Culture dedicated schools can be after hour schools or summer schools. I got nothing against a kid learning there heritage and history and the ways of life of there family and culture but they have to learn ours too.

I would also consider putting in a allotment number to every city and town for immigration. Vancouver and Toronto could have a value of 20 000 each, while Burnaby and Kelowna could have a value of 300. And then sub separate it by regions so Vancouver could have 5000 spots open for South Asia, 5000 spots open for Europe, 5000 spots open for South America and 5000 spots open for everything else. When people choose to immigrate here they have to immigrate to a city with a open slot for there region and live there for the 3 years during there education period. Once on probational perm resident or citizenship status they are free to move anywhere. If a job change or other issue requires relocation they have to apply to immigration for permission. This should spread out immigration through out the entire country and not allow it to be concentrated in just a few urban centers. After they qualify to relocate anywhere chances are they wont.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by OAW 

I've been following this thread for a while. The conclusion I've come to regarding the OT is that it's a mixture of valid points ... along with ethnic over-generalizations and a fixation on irritating behavior done by immigrants that apparently doesn't produce the same level of angst when done by the natives. More so the latter. That about sum it up?

OAW

I would agree. Its really not about ethnic's as in skin color but more culture backgrounds. A white man born in China and lived his entire life there will be the same as any Visually ethnic Chinese man with regards to ignorance of Western cultures. There is some over generalization but its overall true too. Its not about skin color. People from Westernized parts of the world, so Australia, Much of Europe share many common society elements so its not nearly as bad as 2nd and 3rd world locations that don't have much in common at all. The simple concept of woman being equal could be totally unimaginable for example. Its also our faults for not having a education system in place to bring them up to snuff either. If I see a native chuck garbage out of the window of a car, I honk at him and finger him and he knows why and chances are will finger me back. It pisses me off just as much. If a immigrant does it, I could do the same thing but I doubt he would even know what it was he did wrong. When I get physically shoved out of the way in a line up of a Asian guy rushing to get on a train as if here we all rush in not line up and walk in, I generally scream at him and push him back but usually the language barrier means he has no idea what im yelling at him about. At least with a native in the same situation I could deck him in the head knock him flat on his ass and not feel bad about it. I couldn't do that to a immigrant because they wouldn't understand why I did it. Its easy to deal with ignorant natives because you can communicate with them, white Chinese, whatever those born here have no excuses at all.

[Click170]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All I'm hearing is that White cultures are superior to the dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Then I'd have to say I don't think your reading all of the contents of all of the posts.

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist? Really?

IMO no, that's not racist.
If you are, repeatedly, having to dodge out of the way of a car because the driver wasn't paying attention, and that driver just happens to be Asian, no it's not racist, that's a generalization (accurate or not). There's a difference.

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Oh based on my observation, Asians are dirty and disgusting, blacks are dumb, whites are rapists, and mexicans are lazy. My culture is superior and they should all follow my rules. No racism there.

If you again and again saw Asians littering more than other groups, and saw black people doing ostensibly stupid things, and heard white people make racist comments, and saw Mexicans sitting on their asses on company time, then I'd say your views are based in observable fact.
On the other hand, if you said those things based solely on an unfounded belief that those groups are inferior, then you would be a racist IMO.

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Where are his facts that Asians don't follow the law or don't bother to learn English?

Well so far no one has presented cit-able facts, only anecdotal evidence and conjecture based on observations. And in the absence of those things, I'm willing to trust my own observations.

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Considering Asians commit the least amount of crime and have the highest college graduation and college admission rates.

Speaking of cit-able facts, how bout you present some to support this claim?
For someone who was just ragging on others for not presenting facts, your their surprisingly absent from your post as well.
That said, I wouldn't disagree with your point, but I find your post to be no more factual than any of others.


Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other race

Well see, as I understand it, nobody is claiming that anyone's race determines cultural or individual achievement. We're pointing out a perceived correlation in the number of asians/foreigners involved in near-collisions that happened to us personally.
I'll give you number 3 though, that's vague enough to cover bloody anything.
Go to google and type in 'define racism' and you'll get plethora of definitions, the top of which is:
"the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races"
You seem to be missing the "intrinsically superior" part.
Now we could argue semantics all day, but I digress.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All I'm hearing is that White cultures are superior to the dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist? Really?

Nope in order for it to be racist you would have to say ALL Asians are ..... not immigrant Asians.

Oh based on my observation, Asians are dirty and disgusting, blacks are dumb, whites are rapists, and mexicans are lazy. My culture is superior and they should all follow my rules. No racism there.

When in Rome do as the Romans.

Where are his facts that Asians don't follow the law or don't bother to learn English?

"In the 1980s, an influx of immigrants from Hong Kong in anticipation of its transfer from the United Kingdom to China, combined with an increase in immigrants from mainland China and previous immigrants from Taiwan, established in Vancouver one of the highest concentrations of ethnic Chinese residents in North America.[71] This arrival of Asian immigrants continued a tradition of immigration from around the world that had established Vancouver as the second most popular destination for immigrants in Canada (after Toronto).[72] Other significant Asian ethnic groups in Vancouver are South Asian (mostly Punjabi, usually referred to as Indo-Canadian), Vietnamese, Filipino, Indonesian, Korean, Cambodians and Japanese. Despite increases in Latin American immigration to Vancouver in the 1980s and 90s, recent immigration has been comparatively low, and African immigration has been similarly stagnant (3.6% and 3.3% of total immigrant population, respectively.)[73] In 1981, less than 7% of the population belonged to a visible minority group.[74] By 2008, this proportion had grown to 51%.[75]"

Im part of that minority 49% non visible minority group which in this city is now the minority so I can assure you I interact with more then enough immigrants on a daily bases to validate my claims.

Considering Asians commit the least amount of crime and have the highest college graduation and college admission rates.

Asians include East Indians, Vietnamese, Filipinos, Indonesians, Koreans, Cambodians and so forth. Being smart has no baring on driving ability, social ability, manners, knowing Western culture. You can be a dam good book worm and do well in school and still drive bad, j walk, toss garbage out on the street and so forth....

If anything, Asians are taught to obey the rules and the importance of education.

Rules of the lands they come from, how does China's rules apply to our rules if they don't know them. We actually have Traffic lights and stop lights at our intersections and painted lines on the roads that mean stuff. Youtube Chinese intersections for some really awesome car crashes and examples of ka-os. Again Asians don't just mean Chinese or Japanese.

Racism | Define Racism at Dictionary.com

Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other race

I'm pretty sure Athens beliefs matches 1 and 3 of the definition of racism. Athens cannot tolerate those dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures. Asians must adopt and obey the rules set by western white culture.

Nope, I don't. Half my friends are visible minorities in the groups I'm bitching about. And they bitch about the same immigrants as much as I do actually sometimes even more. Only difference is they where born here. 1 is way wrong because its referring to believing Blacks cant be smart because they are black for example. Thats not the case at all. If you think the people in Mainland China live the same as we do, do the same as we do, believe the same values as we do then your nuts. Culture differences are based on cultural locations not skin color. Every country on this planet has its own cultural differences. If I move to Italy im expecting to have to learn Italian to function there. If I move to Japan im expecting to learn Japan to function there.

Im don't even believe in races so 3 is no match at all. We are one world one people divided up by language, history and cultural upbringing.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Damn those dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Damn those Asian people with the poor eyesight and bad driving skills.

Damn those Asian people for not learning English and not following our laws.

Oh no. No racism there.

You know which ethnicity has the highest drunk driving rate? White folks.

In the US sure, its mostly white. I bet the highest number of drunk driving rates in China will belong to Asians. I bet the highest number of drunk driving rates in Congo will be Black people.

You know who commits the least amount of crime? Asians.

Prob how many Asians make up the US population. Who commits the least amount of crime in Japan? I bet you its not a Asians, prob black people.

I don't know why you insist Asians don't follow the law or put up the effort to learn English.

See it every single day from Asian immigrants.

As for dirty and disgusting, it's more of a poor vs. rich issue rather than a culture thing. Poor areas tends to be more dirty and disgusting. Poor people are use to it.

HA! Not a chance buddy, they own monster houses worth $600 000+ and it costs a decent amount of money to even immigrate here. These are not poor people. They own nice expensive houses and drive in nice expensive cars. Not a chance.

Have you been to Singapore? The cleanest f*cking place in the world.

Wish more of them would move here then (as long as they learn our laws and language)

Are you saying Hawaii, with one of the largest Asian population in the US, one of the dirtiest states in the US?

I doubt Hawaii has that many Asians immigrating there. I would expect Washington and California to be the number one locations for Asian immigration.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All I'm hearing is that White cultures are superior to the dirty and disgusting East Indian and Asian cultures.

Saying things based on observations and experience which happen to involve ethnic people is not racist? Really?

I bitch about American Immigrants as well, generally rude, obnoxious and loud. But being similar cultures language isn't much of a issue. Driving standards and tests are about the same so American drivers are not a problem. Generally speaking I see American immigrants not tossing old furniture and garbage into the creeks or edge of there properties. Americans are as bad at holding the door open for some one as the Asians but over time they adapt. Australians learn to drive on the opposite side of the road they are used to They to also speak English, and come from a place of similar rules and standards. So why would I bitch about Australians. British immigrants are bloody arrogant but they too come from a culture very similar so they fit in. Polish people are white and they generally have the same issues here. Language issues, culture issues. Russians are white and have the same Language issues, same cultural issues as Asians. The few Russians I know have mostly adapted to life here. Perhaps because there are so few Russians they don't have a choice but to adapt.

Oh based on my observation, Asians are dirty and disgusting, blacks are dumb, whites are rapists, and mexicans are lazy.

If you are only judging people by there skin color thats sad.

My culture is superior and they should all follow my rules. No racism there.

I thought Americans do think they are culturally superior to the rest of the world. Your American right?

[Click170]

Originally Posted by Athens 

...Generally speaking I see American immigrants not tossing old furniture and garbage into the creeks or edge of there properties.

*cough* rednecks *cough*

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Click170 

*cough* rednecks *cough*

Rednecks don't travel more then a couple km from the trailers. I don't think they even know what another country is let alone have the ability to get a passport... YEeeHa!

[el chupacabra]

… .

[ort888]

I hate those who are different from me as well. Who's with me!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Whats worse is when they come into YOUR place of business and and just bark "Spanish" likes it's the only English word they know and you should just accommodate them. I speak Spanish but 75% of the time just have to respond "no understandae" to their rude behavior.

There are even people here in the US protesting teaching their kids english...

Wouldn't surprise me. If I remember right a school in California tried to ban American flags during the 4th of July because the student population is mostly Mexican and they got insulted by American kids putting on the Stars and Strips.

[besson3c]

There is a definite pragmatism to consolidating on communicating in one language, but every time I read posts like the above I always feel a tinge of the idea that you are somehow threatened by these other languages being pervasive. Am I reading too much into this?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There is a definite pragmatism to consolidating on communicating in one language, but every time I read posts like the above I always feel a tinge of the idea that you are somehow threatened by these other languages being pervasive. Am I reading too much into this?

In my case ya, I don't actually hate them or hate there cultures. And part of the problem is our governments. Bitching about the problem to fix it isn't the same as being a white supremacist not wanting them here at all. There are problems, there are issues and its a taboo subject because many automatically see it being a racist subject. Identify the problem, complain about it, work to resolve it.

But who likes going into a store and having to repeat yourself 5 times then pointing with a finger what you want. Then a year later you still have to every day with the employee, he still has no functional ability to communicate in English. Can't just go to another store because they are all like that now. Who likes having to shove a few immigrants out of the way after polity saying excuse me, then saying move all result in smile faces of no understanding. The issues on the road are so numerous im not going to even start on that. But of the 9 known impacts on my car's since 2006, all of them except for one dumb white blond chick on a cell phone had been a immigrant. Half of those rear enders happened at low speeds on snow, I don't really count that because snow is so rare here and its the slick wet kind every one has issues. I wouldn't expect any immigrate to be able to drive well in it if people who have grown up here cant. The ones I even bothered to get the drivers info from every single one of those where permanent residences and been here for years now. They couldn't communicate at the accident. They clearly didn't understand what was going on. The read ender that wrote off my Jetta was a Asian guy who didn't know what a Yield sign was. I only know that because he called some one after the accident that translated everything back in forth because he wouldn't even let me copy his DL info down. I asked his friend who's English was poor to to ask him if he knew what a yield sign means and the interpretor asked me what is a yield sign lol, that got my teeth grinding that time. Yes its possible the world "Yield" does not translate which could explain why neither of them knew what it was. But that killed my Jetta and the only accident to cause me issues with my back and Neck. Another good one was a Filipino who decided to change lanes into me. I only ended up with a scratch on the front bumper and her Boy Friends NEW car took the brunt of the damage. She actually spoke decent English but was absolutely clueless on how to deal with a accident, didn't know what a shoulder check was, or what a blind spot is. I asked her did you not do a shoulder check to see if any one was in your blind spot. She started asking me questions on how to do that.... I was beside myself. HOW does some one get a license and has no concept of basic stuff. Same pattern repeats for a few other rear enders (low speed ones) or collisions at 4 way stops and so forth. I also have impacts that happened while the car is parked that I can't say who did it but I have seen a dozen impacts in parking lots, every single one of them a Asian person banging into another car then just driving off. Sometimes they get out to look at their car first. So I think its safe to say the marks on my car are probably Asians. I have seen stores turn totally one ethnic background because the manager is of one ethnic kind.

My point all along is we are failing. We are not doing what is needed to ensure they can communicate, operate and understand how to live here. I have no problems with some one from China moving here, working here, living here and keeping their culture. BUT I do expect them to learn enough English to function in the work place with other English workers and with English customers. Its a English country. I do expect them to know how to drive or take the bus. I do expect them to not do some things here that was acceptable back where they came from. Like tossing a TV or a couch in the bushes beside the road. And I do expect a manager at a store to not ethnically hire only her own kind. This one isnt fair to any one else. Chinese guy, Black guy, Mexican guy, white guy get looked over because a Filipino manager only hires other Filipino 's. Some of it is being cracked down on like the Licensing scandal of a couple years ago, Mainland Chinese immigrants where buying a passing grade with ICBC who had no businesses being on the road. Over 2500 people had to get re-tested when it was discovered.

But we are allowing for it. We allow any interrupter for the driving tests. The tester can't know if the interrupter is telling the driver how to pass or just interrupting the commands. They shouldn't be driving if they cant do the test on their own. Functional level of English to understand the written portion of signs should be required. Language skills used to be a requirement for hiring some one in a job that required some one to interact with other employee's or customers. Thats no longer the case. Not hiring some one because the language is so poor they cant function is called discrimination now. So thats out the Window. Then their is the laws with exemptions that shouldn't be the case. Its great your religion requires you to use a head garment, but take it off and put a helmet on or don't ride a motorcycle. End of story. Its great a East Indian wants to be a cop, but do we really need to have 2 sets of rules, every one has to have shaved low cut hair and the uniform hat but the East Indian gets to put the badge on the towel and leave his hair long because of his religion. If its that big of a deal taking it off while your working then don't apply to be a cop. Make the test more difficult for becoming a citizen. Ops most are now failing so we lower the passing requirement to reduce the work load. Whats the point of having a test at all then. Most my friends are immigrants. They bitch about these people who never adapt either so Its hardly racist well unless the guy bitching his white. Its ok for the Chinese guy who came here and learned are ways to bitch about other Chinese that don't.

Maybe this is unique to Vancouver, because over 25 years we went from 7% Asian immigrant population to 65%, and I've seen the changes that have come with it. Maybe this should be taken as a warning that if we don't put somethings in place to ensure a smoother transition this could happen to many more communities over the next 50 years. Because I can tell you this, when the population gets this high their is no need to transition any more. You have a easier time functioning in Mandarin Chinese or Punjabi then you do in English in large parts of the city now. Some businesses list English as last in the option to select which language you want to communicate in over the phone having to listen to 6 South Asian options first before getting to this countries official languages.

[el chupacabra]

… .

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

In case you are wondering, I'm white.

You pink-toes all look the same!

[besson3c]

Athens: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the justification for non-English speaking people *demanding* that you speak their language, but don't you think that for the most part these people are aware of the language barrier and would love to learn English so that they could get by easier? Learning a language is no easy task, it takes years, it's a process. It might be more difficult for some people, especially older people.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Athens: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the justification for non-English speaking people *demanding* that you speak their language, but don't you think that for the most part these people are aware of the language barrier and would love to learn English so that they could get by easier? Learning a language is no easy task, it takes years, it's a process. It might be more difficult for some people, especially older people.

Sorry besson, that just doesn't fly.

If you had the drive to learn a language it can be done in a surprisingly short amount of time. Simple phrases and courtesies can be learned inside of a day. You're right that it takes a long time to become fully fluent in a language, but thats not the issue here. My girl's parents are from Romania and came here not knowing the language when the communist regime fell - but both learned it (became nearly fluent) inside of 6 weeks. Oh, and they were poor as all hell and all 6 of them lived in a 1 BR apartment in DC for a number of years (her, her brother, her mom, dad and grandparents), and couldn't afford classes or high-end learning aides. Just a book and an audio tape set.

I am the first person to be accommodating when someone is struggling with their english but visibly trying, or at least asking for help. Just yesterday a mexican was standing by the payphone outside the grocery store and couldn't figure out how to call home (mexico), and eeked out "I no understand" and "can you help me" and showed me the number he was trying to call before I gave him the extra quarters he needed for an international call. OTOH, I can't stand it when I'm behind someone who just walks up to the counter and yells "Spanish" over and over until someone from the store or a passerby assists, then pays with a check or a credit card (establishing that they in all probability have a bank account here).

The former example, however, is more prevalent than the latter. Regardless, my point remains.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Athens: I have a hard time wrapping my head around the justification for non-English speaking people *demanding* that you speak their language, but don't you think that for the most part these people are aware of the language barrier and would love to learn English so that they could get by easier? Learning a language is no easy task, it takes years, it's a process. It might be more difficult for some people, especially older people.

I wasn't the one that said they are demanding us to speak there language. While true that older people and fresh off the boat people are not going to know English, and for the older people it is doubtful they will ever learn it because language is hard and harder as you age there is no excuse for younger people who have lived here for years to not pick up at least the very basics, or for children born here not knowing English in there teens because they went to special private schools that didn't speak English. Like I said in a earlier post this might be special to Vancouver and maybe Toronto because the populations are so high you really don't need to learn English to get by here. The people I complain about are the ones that have been here for 5 years or more not new people just getting here. People I have had to interact with for years now.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Sorry besson, that just doesn't fly.

If you had the drive to learn a language it can be done in a surprisingly short amount of time. Simple phrases and courtesies can be learned inside of a day. You're right that it takes a long time to become fully fluent in a language, but thats not the issue here. My girl's parents are from Romania and came here not knowing the language when the communist regime fell - but both learned it (became nearly fluent) inside of 6 weeks. Oh, and they were poor as all hell and all 6 of them lived in a 1 BR apartment in DC for a number of years (her, her brother, her mom, dad and grandparents), and couldn't afford classes or high-end learning aides. Just a book and an audio tape set.

I am the first person to be accommodating when someone is struggling with their english but visibly trying, or at least asking for help. Just yesterday a mexican was standing by the payphone outside the grocery store and couldn't figure out how to call home (mexico), and eeked out "I no understand" and "can you help me" and showed me the number he was trying to call before I gave him the extra quarters he needed for an international call. OTOH, I can't stand it when I'm behind someone who just walks up to the counter and yells "Spanish" over and over until someone from the store or a passerby assists, then pays with a check or a credit card (establishing that they in all probability have a bank account here).

The former example, however, is more prevalent than the latter. Regardless, my point remains.

Well, I've never had that sort of experience, but I defer to the several of you who have said that this is fairly common. It's astonishing!

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Snow-i 

Sorry besson, that just doesn't fly.

If you had the drive to learn a language it can be done in a surprisingly short amount of time. Simple phrases and courtesies can be learned inside of a day. You're right that it takes a long time to become fully fluent in a language, but thats not the issue here. My girl's parents are from Romania and came here not knowing the language when the communist regime fell - but both learned it (became nearly fluent) inside of 6 weeks. Oh, and they were poor as all hell and all 6 of them lived in a 1 BR apartment in DC for a number of years (her, her brother, her mom, dad and grandparents), and couldn't afford classes or high-end learning aides. Just a book and an audio tape set.

I am the first person to be accommodating when someone is struggling with their english but visibly trying, or at least asking for help. Just yesterday a mexican was standing by the payphone outside the grocery store and couldn't figure out how to call home (mexico), and eeked out "I no understand" and "can you help me" and showed me the number he was trying to call before I gave him the extra quarters he needed for an international call. OTOH, I can't stand it when I'm behind someone who just walks up to the counter and yells "Spanish" over and over until someone from the store or a passerby assists, then pays with a check or a credit card (establishing that they in all probability have a bank account here).

The former example, however, is more prevalent than the latter. Regardless, my point remains.

Now imagine almost every gas station, and store hiring people that speak no English at all or almost none and to get something held behind the counter like a pack of smokes requires finger pointing and half a dozen attempts before they get the right product for you. Its frustrating as hell. Worse while your looking around for what you need you here 2 or 3 of them gabbing away in there language with no idea what they are saying. Its also frustrating dealing with the same people at the same location for years and they still don't know anything. Also picture this, over 25 years you watched your community go from a 10% immigrant population to 65% and a good percent, assume even 1% never learn or try to learn English that still translates into tens of thousands of people. Def feels like a lot more I wouldn't say 10% to be unreasonable in my assumption of what it feels like. And these same people cant drive either....

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Well, I've never had that sort of experience, but I defer to the several of you who have said that this is fairly common. It's astonishing!

Location Location Location. Two of my favorite cities/towns in the world to visit to get away from immigration overload right now is Bellevue in Washington State and Whistler BC. Bellevue is mostly white people and the visible minorities there are culturally American. Asians that speak perfect English. The drivers mostly follow the rules, drive well, calm and don't do stupid crap. In fact its my fav place to drive, its relaxing and Whistler while 90% immigrants this time of year for the ski season mostly full of English speaking tourist or at least mostly people from Westernized cultures. Even if they hardly speak any English there western backgrounds allow them to fit in. Simple things like holding the door open, not tossing trash out on the streets, no pushing or shoving. Saying excuse me to get around you and lightly tapping your shoulder to let you know they are crossing behind you. They try to communicate with you in the elevator or while in a line up even if they can only get a few words off there is still a ability to understand things like, Its a nice day today.

My observations. People from Europe, Africa, South America try the hardest to fit in. My next door neighbor is from Congo and him and his family moved here 7 years ago not knowing a single word of English. We didn't even start talking until about 3 years ago and while he and his wife have a accent they speak almost perfect English now. The guy that lives above me in the house I rent came from Poland and has been here for at least 20 years. We where discussing immigration a while back over a BBQ and what he went through to come here and he said the hardest part was the language. They learned it in a few months to get by and became good over a few years. Now these 2 people like me bitch about the Asians and East Indians of the last decade too. East Indians pick up the language, the majority of them its not a language issue its a behavior issue. The Asians are the ones that behave well but isolate themselves except for Japanese they quickly adapt. A co-workers wife is from South America, she has been in the country for 6 years and speaks really good English. I never asked if she had to pick it up from scratch when she moved here. You know when I think about it my Best 2 friends one from Turkey and one from Iran both came here knowing little English in high school picked it up quickly and both there parents learned to be functional enough over a few years complain about the Asians and East Indians too. My friend from Turkey his parents are really old and I don't think they will ever learn to speak English well, its been 15 years now they have been here. But they do speak functional English. Please, Thank you, hello, how, and a vocab of a few hundred words and very simple sentences. I learned to speak a few Turkish words to try and communicate with them years ago when I spent a lot of time there. Friends from Chili, Jamaica, England, Australia, Taiwan, and Russia also complain about the Asians and East Indians immigrants. People who have come here and adapted complain about these large populations that don't. That kinda tells you something when former immigrants who have adapted to our ways also complain.

I would never expect some one to understand who does not live in a city thats been taking over. But I have herd this a few times from a few American friends who have visited Vancouver. They couldn't believe how many Asians live here. Direct quotes from them, it was like visiting China.

I think in 100 years considering that China and India both make up over a Billion people each the demographics of every major city in North America is going to change with mostly Mexican populations in the Southern parts of the US and mostly Asian people in the rest. I guess we will have to wait and see how this turns out.

[freudling]

I can see from the posts in this thread: not many people live in Canada! Or, you're just blind.

Immigration in Canada has finally gotten past he point of people denying there is a problem to it being accepted as a problem, but just barely. And there's no shortage of immigrants who speak up defending Canada's immigration laws.

In fact, there is an immigration crisis in Canada, and that's because multi-culturism doesn't work. Germany's denounced it, and so has Australia. In fact, the whole doctrine has imploded in the EU as of this year.

Why doesn't it work? Because people are too primitive and stupid to live together under one roof. That's the reason. All the religious and racial tension between different groups of people causes social strife. That, and their refusal to assimilate and accept local cultures and laws.

You want some facts about immigration in Canada and why it's a problem? First live here for a while, in addition to going and looking at the data.

Let's first point some things out about Vancouver/Lower Mainland.

In Surrey, where there is an overwhelming amount of East Indians... it has the highest violent crime rate in all of Canada. And domestic violence too, not just gang violence, where East Indian families are cutting and shooting each other down.

Vancouver has the most hate crimes in all of Canada. It's also a city overran with immigrants. White, Canadian Nationals make up about 40% of the population, 37% are from Asia proper.

People are not mixing here. The Chinese and East Indians are particularly segregated from both each other and other cultures.

The amount of crime and gang violence in Vancouver/Lower Mainland is becoming a very public problem, and it is linked to not only white people, but Asian/East Indian/Mexican gangs.

Iranian gangster/East Indian gang members associated with targeted hit on Vancouver's west side last week. 10 shot: the area was sprayed with bullets from AK47s:

CTV British Columbia - 5 still in hospital after Vancouver gangland shooting - CTV News

This story is all too common in terms of the nationality of the groups involved.

The United Nations also mentions Canada in an immigration report and how in certain parts of the country, where groups from Somalia and Sir Lanka have congregated, the youth are spun into drugs and violence because they bring all their problems with them, and can't assimilate into another way of life. But they're encouraged not to assimilate at all.

Nationally, affirmative action has failed: it's caused more problems than it's likely solved. There have been several headline news stories about problems in various government departments because different cultural groups weren't getting along with each other. Thus, multiculturism isn't just a "white/black" problem, it's a problem for everyone.

The government can't objectively rule the people because they have to accommodate so many religions and groups. Because the government has to appease so many groups, and because Members of Parliament have religious/cultural influences, it's more a game of "how much can I get out of this place for my culture"...

You want to know how reactionary and sensitive the government is here? This is typical, a daily thing, and we're not only dealing with just Asian cultural sensitivity, we're dealing with dozens of cultures who have rooted themselves into our socio-political rubric. In short, we can't really say anything about anything without offending anyone. It's like a communist regime in a way: totally controlled.

For example, Maclean's magazine came out with a story about Asians/others in University. They titled the article "Too Asian?". Maybe that was a little much, but, low and behold... Globe and Mail has a story:

Maclean’s no longer worthy of public funding, says senator - The Globe and Mail

Check out the Senator's homepage who complained, and who is calling for the funding to be removed. LOL. Ya, there are so many people like this in our government. Who is she really representing? What kind of government is it when every single culture is promoted, and each are struggling to advance their own agendas...

Vivienne Poy Senate Website

No, I don't necessarily agree with a magazine being partly funded by the government, but that's not the obvious point...

I don't think people really understand what has happened here. Canada gives virtually any group, from any part of the world, carte blanche freedom when it comes to people and the government itself having to respect their heritage and religion.

Here's some interesting tid bits, subject to verification:

Most of the quarter of a million people who immigrate to Canada every year are not interviewed by a visa officer to determine if they are well-suited to integrate into Canadian society and its economy.

There are more than 100,000 parents and grandparents of immigrants who have met requirements and are waiting to enter Canada. They will receive the benefits of our public health care system without having contributed to costs by paying income tax.

In 2003 Canada accepted 76% of refugee claims by Sri Lankans while Britain accepted 2% and Germany 4%. That year Canada accepted 1,749 refugee claims by Sri Lankans while all the other countries together accepted only 1,160.

Did you know that Canada has ten times more expatriates than the US? And these people still get all the public health care from Canada. They can live abroad for as long as they want, come back to get medical care, and then leave again.

I have experienced racism against whites my whole life. I am seeing it all over the streets every day. I've also been all over Canada, and have been studying the situation for several years.

We've accommodated immigrants long enough. Now that there are so many socio-political problems here, it's time for a different doctrine, because again: Because people are too primitive and stupid to live together under one roof. They've had their chance, like other parts of the world, and blew it.

Home Page | Centre for Immigration Policy Reform

[besson3c]

People may be too stupid to live together under one roof, but what choice do we have? Whatever political policy is supported, the fact is that globalization exists, we can't just pretend that these cultural tensions don't exist and shut out everybody else. This is like putting our fingers in our ears and going "lalalala".

Even leaving out different cultures, there are still religious differences, political differences, differences of all kinds. The remedy is learning how to tolerate and co-exist. It may be a fleeting fantasy, but it is better to try than to try to reverse or counter globalization with creating little sandboxes for everyone. It can be argued that ignorant little sandboxes are just as problematic.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

People may be too stupid to live together under one roof, but what choice do we have? Whatever political policy is supported, the fact is that globalization exists, we can't just pretend that these cultural tensions don't exist and shut out everybody else. This is like putting our fingers in our ears and going "lalalala".

Even leaving out different cultures, there are still religious differences, political differences, differences of all kinds. The remedy is learning how to tolerate and co-exist. It may be a fleeting fantasy, but it is better to try than to try to reverse or counter globalization with creating little sandboxes for everyone. It can be argued that ignorant little sandboxes are just as problematic.

This is complete BS and oversimplifies it. Culture is culture is culture. Do you want to live in China? Do you want to live in India? Probably not. I don't either. Cultures are very different from one another, and denying this is pure ignorance. Immigration unabated, as it is in Canada, specifically as an overwhelming amount of it comes from Asia proper, is precarious for a variety of reasons. And it's precarious for every party involved.

It's an interplay between the multi-cultural doctrine and the shear amount of one group entering the country.

First it threatens a democracy because groups of people, and foreign governments who are not democracies begin exerting influence over the country. This is not something to be underestimated here. It's because of the "tolerance" argument that you advance that we have gotten ourselves in a position of not being able to say anything about any group whatever. That the government can't properly govern it people. And this is very bad for many reasons.

See the recent press on CSIS reporting how China has influence over government here in Canada, and how they were concerned and looking at individuals of interest in the matter. There was a huge outcry by the Chinese, and other immigrants. Fadden had to backtrack a bit on what he said. But there's nothing wrong with what he said, only that people like you create an atmosphere of constraints that hinders the ability for a government to govern the country as it was meant to. In a democracy, we want to know about these things, and we have a right to know. Not to be afraid to speak out about these important matters because we might offend some immigrants.

CBC News - British Columbia - CSIS comments anger Chinese community

From laws that aren't objective... from no helmets on motorbikes because you're Sikh, to being able to wear a Turban in our military because you're Sikh, from not having to serve in the military during times of crisis because of your religion, or because the adversary is that of your home country... tolerance has gone way, way too far. Canada isn't even a country anymore, it's just a colony where groups of people are fighting for a certain way of life.

We have been tolerant long enough. It's not working. We have so many socio-political problems people are waking up to the problem. Go do some reading and look at some data, then come back here.

http://www.immigrationreform.ca/doc/...rity-Nexus.pdf

[besson3c]

Why do you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you are worried about foreign governments that are not democratic influencing our own, then make a good argument to the people so that people are voted in that will preserve what we have? Last I checked the Canadian government is largely white and male, I don't understand what you seem to feel the threat is? If what we have is superior, there is nothing to be afraid of.

As for everything else such as offending party x and y, so be it. That's what you get with a free society, people here in the States are offended about everything as well, tough. I'm not saying that it is inappropriate to push back against non-European cultures trying to assert influence, in fact I think pushing back peacefully is a celebration of our Democracy. There is a balance to everything, but I don't see how the solution to these challenges is abolishing multi-culturalism altogether. There are many strong reasons to preserve a sense of multi-culturalism, chiefly being the general promotion of tolerance.

[Eug]

I live in Toronto. Seems pretty good to me, and the food is awesome.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Why do you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater? If you are worried about foreign governments that are not democratic influencing our own, then make a good argument to the people so that people are voted in that will preserve what we have? Last I checked the Canadian government is largely white and male, I don't understand what you seem to feel the threat is? If what we have is superior, there is nothing to be afraid of.

As for everything else such as offending party x and y, so be it. That's what you get with a free society, people here in the States are offended about everything as well, tough. I'm not saying that it is inappropriate to push back against non-European cultures trying to assert influence, in fact I think pushing back peacefully is a celebration of our Democracy. There is a balance to everything, but I don't see how the solution to these challenges is abolishing multi-culturalism altogether. There are many strong reasons to preserve a sense of multi-culturalism, chiefly being the general promotion of tolerance.

Go away. You're an armchair critic. You don't know the problems. You don't live in Canada. You've probably never been to Canada.

The only thing you know is that it's north of you.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Go away. You're an armchair critic. You don't know the problems. You don't live in Canada. You've probably never been to Canada.

The only thing you know is that it's north of you.

Awesome response, you've thoroughly refuted my points.

I suppose my 20 years living in Toronto and my Canadian citizenship don't account for much after all of this!

[Eug]

P.S. I've lived in Vancouver too, and it seemed pretty good to me there too, again with awesome food - better seafood than Toronto.

The main problem with Vancouver when I lived there though is that it seemed more insular to me. It always amused me when people would "Are you from out east?" when they were asking if I was from Calgary. My other favourite was:

"I hate Toronto."
"Have you ever been there?"
"No, but I know what they're like."

BTW, one thing I've noticed is that those who already owned houses in Vancouver were happy with immigration driving up home prices, but those didn't own houses are much more grumpy. An overgeneralization of course, but hey, isn't it what this thread is all about?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by freudling 

In fact, there is an immigration crisis in Canada, and that's because multi-culturism doesn't work. Germany's denounced it, and so has Australia. In fact, the whole doctrine has imploded in the EU as of this year.

Multi-Culturism works, the problem generates from to many of one kind of immigration that takes over. When I was at the mall yesterday I kid you not, 6 white people, 1 East Indian, 1 Black guy and hundreds and hundreds of Asians. I even took a video of it which I will post later.

In Surrey, where there is an overwhelming amount of East Indians... it has the highest violent crime rate in all of Canada. And domestic violence too, not just gang violence, where East Indian families are cutting and shooting each other down.

Vancouver has the most hate crimes in all of Canada. It's also a city overran with immigrants. White, Canadian Nationals make up about 40% of the population, 37% are from Asia proper.

Good points, 6 out of the last 8 gay bashing hate crime incidents in Downtown Vancouver the past 4 years have been by Young East Indian males, of all the shootings and stabbing deaths of the last 5 years, which numbers in the high 80's or more have been mostly Asians and with the exception of a few white gang members the only non Asians being killed have been innocent victims.

Of the street racing deaths all over the lower mainland 90% of them have been Asians and East Indian youth drivers.

All this time I was focusing on the personal inconveniences and direct issues I totally forgot about the Crime stats.

This article I just found sums it up pretty good

Immigration forecasters in 1984 failed to foresee Vancouver's future - The Search

A good section of the article for those that don't bother to go read it

When Sagi wrote his feature more than 25 years ago, no one seemed to be predicting perhaps the most remarkable shift of all: that eight out of nine immigrants to the province, or almost 40,000 a year, would choose to settle in Metro Vancouver.
As a result, Metro Vancouver -- especially Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond and the city of Vancouver -- are growing sharply distinct from the rest of B.C. Four out of 10 of Metro Vancouver's 2.1 million residents now belong to a visible minority.
Where people of Chinese origin made up less than three per cent of the B.C. population according to the 1981 census, by 2006 they made up at least 11 per cent of all B.C. residents, and 20 per cent of all Metro Vancouverites.
Instead of boasting about having "the largest Chinatown outside San Francisco," Metro Vancouverites now consider Vancouver's Chinatown a faded enclave compared to the thriving Chinese-language malls in Richmond (left), where 44 per cent of the population is Chinese.
The so-called "East Indian" population has skyrocketed even faster than the ethnic Chinese community, from just one per cent of B.C. residents in the early 1980s to six per cent.
In Metro, people with roots in India and Pakistan, now referred to as "South Asians," make up one in 10 people, including a significant one out of four of those who live in fast-growing Surrey.
In the more than 25 years since Sagi wrote his feature on immigration, here are just a few more of the "interesting" things that have occurred in Metro:
- Hundreds of Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu and Sikh religious buildings pepper the urban landscape, no longer seen as exotic.
- Many high schools have developed student populations speaking more than 75 non-English languages in their homes.
- Ethnic Chinese and South Asians have been heavily involved in business and politics, with South Asian Ujjal Dosanjh (above right) serving as a short-lived NDP premier.
- The Air India explosion riveted attention on B.C.'s Sikh links to global terrorism.
- Scores of ethnic newspapers and TV stations report in dozens of languages.
- Housing prices have soared, in part because of high immigration.
- The student bodies at SFU, UBC and Kwantlen Polytechnic are roughly 70-per-cent visible minority.
- With China and India on the economic rise, Metro residents have become inextricably bound to the entire world, with European links being matched by strong new ones to Asia.
- Metro Vancouver scores one of the greatest rates of interracial marriage and dating on the planet.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

learning how to tolerate and co-exist.

I agree so we should kick out the immigrants that don't or cant learn to tolerate and co-exist or follow our rules and laws.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I agree so we should kick out the immigrants that don't or cant learn to tolerate and co-exist or follow our rules and laws.

How about you kick out *anybody* that can't follow rules, laws and can't tolerate and/or co-exist?

[Athens]

freudling wanna do a fact finding photo shoot for these guys, get a coffee in Richmond or something. I live out in Coquitlam.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How about you kick out *anybody* that can't follow rules, laws and can't tolerate and/or co-exist?

Can't kick out a Citizen otherwise I would be done for it to. Send Clifford Olson or Paul Barnardo to the US.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

freudling wanna do a fact finding photo shoot for these guys, get a coffee in Richmond or something. I live out in Coquitlam.

I don't disbelieve the population distribution in your area, I just think that our identities were never what you seem to think they are.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Go away. You're an armchair critic. You don't know the problems. You don't live in Canada. You've probably never been to Canada.

The only thing you know is that it's north of you.

Dude its not a Canada problem, not yet. Its mostly a Lower Mainland problem that is spreading. Even some one from Edmonton isn't going to understand until they drive down here and walk around in Landsdowne Mall or Guildford mall or just walking around on 3rd or got to Metrotown.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. I've lived in Vancouver too, and it seemed pretty good to me there too, again with awesome food - better seafood than Toronto.

The main problem with Vancouver when I lived there though is that it seemed more insular to me. It always amused me when people would "Are you from out east?" when they were asking if I was from Calgary. My other favourite was:

"I hate Toronto."
"Have you ever been there?"
"No, but I know what they're like."

BTW, one thing I've noticed is that those who already owned houses in Vancouver were happy with immigration driving up home prices, but those didn't own houses are much more grumpy. An overgeneralization of course, but hey, isn't it what this thread is all about?

True on both counts. We only hate GTA because it controls the country and every one from the GTA think Toronto is the center of the Universe. Our Immigration problem has not yet reached a point where we can say we hate it more then Toronto people. I'll take a non English speaking Asian or even a American over some one from GTA any day. BTW have you guys called the Military out yet this year to dig you out of that inch of snow that fell.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

Can't kick out a Citizen otherwise I would be done for it to. Send Clifford Olson or Paul Barnardo to the US.

Well, since there is no real way to identify those who are not tolerating and co-existing and attempting to remove those identified will surely have all sorts of consequences, why not just simply promote a general sense of tolerance and co-existing? This seems like the ultimate solution.

Those areas without the population distributions you speak of are not necessarily any better at tolerating and co-existing, and the intolerant are often ignorant which too has its own set of problems.

I live in an interesting environment that is a combination of many cultures, as well as a bunch of good ol' salt-of-the-Earth Indiana hoosier types that while many have hearts of gold, their viewpoints/experiences/perspectives can be very narrow and limited. This is different than being disagreeable, there is nothing wrong with these people, but it's sort of like knowing that you can't talk about technology and stuff you care about with your grandparents because they just can't have that conversation with you, you know?

I suppose that sounds elitist or something, but whatever, I happen to think that the variety of viewpoints, religions, traditions, cuisine, political environment, social class, etc. makes a place worthwhile inhabiting. I don't think that after living where you have, Athens, that you'd be happy living in a place that is culturally bankrupt.

Have you considered this flip side?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Athens 

True on both counts. We only hate GTA because it controls the country and every one from the GTA think Toronto is the center of the Universe. Our Immigration problem has not yet reached a point where we can say we hate it more then Toronto people. I'll take a non English speaking Asian or even a American over some one from GTA any day. BTW have you guys called the Military out yet this year to dig you out of that inch of snow that fell.

The funny thing is that I'm actually from out west (Saskatchewan), and find Toronto a heluvalot more inclusive than Vancouver.

In Toronto: You're from Vancouver? Great, welcome!
In Vancouver: You're from Toronto? OMG, you suck, unless you've seen the light and moved here.

If anything, I think Vancouver is a LOT more self-centred than Toronto. I just don't understand it. I'm not saying Toronto is never self-centred because some here can be, but trust me, Vancouver is a lot worse. And, every one of my friends from Calgary and Saskatchewan who visited me here actually liked it a lot.

BTW, while I wouldn't live in certain parts of Surrey, I'd rather live in White Rock than say Coquitlam. I lived in North Van though. Getting downtown was a major pain.

If money were no object and I was to live in Vancouver, I'd move to Point Grey. I actually prefer West Van in many ways, but it's too much of pain to commute from West Van.