[vexborg]

Get an Ford Escort, cheap spareparts, reasonable fuel use (mine uses 6 l per 100 km).

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

84 HP? looks like those guys need to go back to the drawing board!!

In the states, the Nissan Versa gets MORE HP, seats TWO MORE PEOPLE and has BETTER gas mileage than a smart car. Oh, and costs less!

84HP you blame?, big deal… it is a turbo petrol engine, we are not talking here about a turbo diesel engine which has no life under 2000 rpm. and it gets 4,9 l/100 km. talk about being the envy of the best-sellers turbo diesel powered cars… and it isn't noisy, doesn't smell like crap and your taillights do not become lamp-blacked after less than two years

Anyway, you are comparing apple to oranges, the Versa is mostly a Renault Megane II (second generation), ever heard about the Renault-Nissan Alliance?, they are not "americars"

Fact remains, like it or not, you can't beat the smart for two as city car and that is Eva's purpose.

suitable for city - check

under 4,30 m. long - check

pretty - check

ecofriendly - check

Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by EuropeBetterThanAmerica 

I am going to test the Fortwo this Thursday ! It is the 84HP in Passion fashion.
Thank you all.

Eva

Oh, just remembered: Why not get a Dacia Logan - that's bloody cheap no frills car, I think it can be had for around €5000... Enough room for 4 persons and their luggage.

Renault / Dacia Logan - The New Renault/Dacia Logan Car

Dacia is built in Romenia, but in cooperation with Renault.

When this car eventually comes to Denmark, I'm going to get one as an replacement for my 1993 Ford Escort...

[cenutrio]

Ok, small cars I like these days:

Italians:
The other day I was mountain biking and a Panda 4x4 passed by, very cool looking car, and price wise it may be a good choice, but I do not know if it is as city friendly as the regular Panda Anyhow, I like Pandas (sentimental reasons angelmb ;-), I had an old convertible one.


But, of course, there's the Fiat 500 which I just love. Problem is, it gets a bit pricey when I set it up the way I like it.


I agree with angelmb, the new Alfa looks amazing

Also, there's the elefantino (Lancia Ypsilon)

I have the older version, I like it and after 160k km is still reliable.


French cars:
I know I'm gonna be ridiculized here, but I love the Citroen Pluriel, my kind of fun city/sports car.



I do not think that Germans know how to make small cars. I like the Beetle more than the new Mini though, mostly because it was an improvement over the old one. However, I rather drive an old Mini Cooper 1275 or 1300 as we used to have them here in Spain than the new one. I'm serious and many who drove the old one may agree, I think.

But I'm a sentimental I think, I learned driving at 14 in a 2 CV, had that exalirating feeling of going really fast in the north Spain mountains in a british green racing Mini Cooper 1300 convertible that my father used to have and sold before I had my driving license (I will never forgive him that), and got laid in a very unconfortable Panda. I like small cars.

It is a very competitive market, in reality it is difficult to get it wrong. It is a matter of tastes because there's lot's of option, but good cars nonetheless.

Finally, of all the cars mentioned -included mines-, I have to to agree with IceEnclosure. The Caterham rules it doesn't make your life any easier, but you smile way more often. One of my dream work projects would be to get a left-steering caterham kit and build it myself.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by cenutrio 

I like Pandas (sentimental reasons angelmb ;-), I had an old convertible one.

I also had one, the so called Panda Marbella, the original one, not the reestylized which carried the Marbella nickname across all the range… it was sort of a Panda with all the extras, albeit Panda and all the extras is kind of an oximoron, to say the least…

But, of course, there's the Fiat 500 which I just love. Problem is, it gets a bit pricey when I set it up the way I like it.

Thing is, the small 500 is the only FIAT I like, the Grande Punto is not bad either, a pity the cabin is poorly done, but the 500 is just too cool… to be a FIAT.

Also, there's the elefantino (Lancia Ypsilon)

I have the older version, I like it and after 160k km is still reliable.

Totally, I don't know how I missed that one. The 1997 Y was really cool indeed.

I know I'm gonna be ridiculized here, but I love the Citroen Pluriel, my kind of fun city/sports car.

The Pluriel, like the C6 does, just shows that Peugeot would be better nuked, besides the 207 they don't have any car any worth, Citroën still brings some fun, good looking cars now and then. Peugeot has ran out of ideas some years ago.

[cenutrio]

The C6 is gorgeous. For me the most beautiful car out there even when I do not like that segment.

[analogika]

While I do like the C6, it's kind of depressing how it tries to DS but utterly fails at the gracefulness.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Those tail lights are hideous.

Maybe it's lack of exposure, but I can't say I like many of the smart cars styling, either.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by cenutrio 

French cars:
I know I'm gonna be ridiculized here, but I love the Citroen Pluriel, my kind of fun city/sports car.

My wife has one of these, same colour. It's one of those cars that's cool in concept only. It leaks, it rattles, it's had loads of mechanical problems, interior space is appaling, and the whole having to remove the roof bars and leave them at home to make it an actual convertible kind of sucks. Especially in England where the rain can start at anytime.

And yet my wife still likes it. Chicks are odd.

[Nexus5]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

In the states, the Nissan Versa gets MORE HP, seats TWO MORE PEOPLE and has BETTER gas mileage than a smart car. Oh, and costs less!

What an ugly car!

nexus5.

[Mithras]

^^
I'm a little unclear where exactly they fit the two kids and four bicycles.

[cenutrio]

It is funny analogika, my dad agrees exactly with you. He likes the C6, but the Ds was in another league. The way I see it is that in very rare occasions a car brand comes with such a concept, and actually delivers it to the public, that it will be for always remembered, and anything posterior will fail to meet expectations. For example, the Citroen SM or Citroen Cx were amazing cars, yet the Ds shadow was too much for them.

I drove a lot the XM and my experiences were great, yet I'm an exception because most agree that it was a very unreliable car. When the Citroen XM failed in the early 90s, it was done, the saloon cars in Europe would forever be Audi, BMW, Mercs, etc, or any other replica trying to get the German touch (citroen C5?).

It is nice to see Citroen is trying again and that the essence of the original concept is still there, even when we may disagree about how much of magic remains. But it is important to see different views about what a saloon car should be. The C6 may help others to try, come on Italians!

Regarding Paco 500, I think it has to do with people´s aptitude. I have huge discrepancies with friends who cannot understand why I love state wagons so much, even more when I tell them now that sedans (3 volume cars) are ugly, old and boring. What really ignites the chat is when I claim that state wagons are more sporty than sedans. In my case, I drive with my laser on top, my mountain bike on the back and at times my Mistral windsurf inside. Exactly my point, that state wagon in reality is a ¨sportswagon¨ because it allows me to do all sports I want. They do not get that.

Besides they think 911s, Ferraris, or wherever are the real sports cars. While I like Porches very much (but the Cheyenne), I rather go with the Caterham which in reality, it is a quite inconvenient car, it leaks, it is noise, and it is old days driving. But that is exactly the fun of it. Too much air conditioning, amazing interiors, soft ride this days, we are becoming to accommodate.

[cenutrio]

2 adults and 3 kids enter perfectly in that car, i agree with the bikes, but there are very cool, cheap systems to bring bikes on the back of cars, I use one all the time.

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by cenutrio 

It is funny analogika, my dad agrees exactly with you. He likes the C6, but the Ds was in another league. The way I see it is that in very rare occasions a car brand comes with such a concept, and actually delivers it to the public, that it will be for always remembered, and anything posterior will fail to meet expectations. For example, the Citroen SM or Citroen Cx were amazing cars, yet the Ds shadow was too much for them.

I drove a lot the XM and my experiences were great, yet I'm an exception because most agree that it was a very unreliable car. When the Citroen XM failed in the early 90s, it was done, the saloon cars in Europe would forever be Audi, BMW, Mercs, etc, or any other replica trying to get the German touch (citroen C5?).

I've owned a shed load of french tin over the years inclusing an XM estate, which was a totally awesome car which never had more tham 80% of its components working at any one time, but just to look at it and to drive it was to love it.

While I agree that the DS is an iconic car I do think that the little GS was the high point in citroens line up. All that style and engineering in a cheap car for the masses is far more impressive than in a luxury car.

On the modern citroen line up, what is that all about. C1 a small town car. C2, a small town car, Pluriel, er a small town car, C3 a small town car, mooted 2CV replacement a small town car.

C4 is interesting in 3 door form, the new C5 looks great but will fall apart (thanks to Peugeot) and the C6 is drop dead gorgeous in the flesh. A C6 estate would be a killer.

The whole modern Peugeot line is blandness personified and the 407 coupé merely underscores all that is wrong with their current design philosophy.

My about town car is a 25 year old Peugeot 104. Now that's a great town car.

[Mastrap]

I've got fond memories of Citroens too. One of my first ever girlfriends drove a Citroen - can't remember what model, but it was pretty tiny. Still, we had a lot of fun in that car.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Those tail lights are hideous.

Actually, the rear is very cool-looking IRL. That rear screen is conCAVE.


The C6's failing is that the front is rather bland and bullish, IMO.


It's a real successor to the DS in every way except its completely unexciting frontal appearance. No grace, no "shark".

[Dakar the Fourth]

That's a beautiful front, but I think the aesthetics of the rear just don't appeal to me.

Edit: Coolness of the rear window notwithstanding

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

While I agree that the DS is an iconic car I do think that the little GS was the high point in citroens line up. All that style and engineering in a cheap car for the masses is far more impressive than in a luxury car.

Don't forget the typical citroën oddities, like the cool tachometer and the stereo placement

Back to the C6, it looks better in a dark color.



straight lines are not its thing…

The whole modern Peugeot line is blandness personified and the 407 coupé merely underscores all that is wrong with their current design philosophy.

So true, their flagship, the 607 is the personified under-deliver german-wannabe, over that it is fugly as sin. Renault's Vel-Satis could sell next to zero but at least it doesn't look "poorly germanized".

As for the 407 coupé, that's even worse, you only have to put it side by side with a beautiful coupé like the Brera to check that style doesn't belong to Peugeot.

Americans, guess the Peugeot…

[Dakar the Fourth]

Hey, those last two aren't bad.

'Course, I doubt they're smart cars.

[IceEnclosure]

the front of that thing is uglier than the back even.(C6).. looks best viewed from exactly the side.

and Andrew Stephens.. do you have a rollbar in your car? Excellent! EDIT: looks like a complete cage!

Andrew Stephens wrote:

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by cenutrio 

2 adults and 3 kids enter perfectly in that car, i agree with the bikes, but there are very cool, cheap systems to bring bikes on the back of cars, I use one all the time.

As there is not a center belt in the back, 3 kids can't fit safely. And really, 3 kids small enough to fit physically should be in baby seats/boosters- and there is NO way 3 of those are getting in the back.

[Luca Rescigno]

That Peugeot looks like a Chrysler Concorde/Dodge Intrepid. Love the Alfa though... beautiful!

[Andrew Stephens]

[QUOTE=IceEnclosure;3680322]the front of that thing is uglier than the back even.(C6).. looks best viewed from exactly the side.

and Andrew Stephens.. do you have a rollbar in your car? Excellent! EDIT: looks like a complete cage!

yes, full fia cage and door bars in there. No room for rear seats

quite a lot else non standard too, but it still does nearly 40mpg around town. (slightly less on the track though!)

[IceEnclosure]

apple sticker, no tints, full cage, 40mpg!

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Hey, those last two aren't bad.

'Course, I doubt they're smart cars.

Come on, you can't tell an Alfa from a Peugeot? j.k. the Alfa -first picture- is really beautiful, the Peugeot -last picture- on the other hand… it could be japanese, korean, chinese, and tomorrow, indian…

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Come on, you can't tell an Alfa from a Peugeot? j.k. the Alfa -first picture- is really beautiful, the Peugeot -last picture- on the other hand… it could be japanese, korean, chinese, and tomorrow, indian…

Oh I know the Alfa grill and the Peugot logo. I have no idea who is involved in the production of smart cars though (or what the precise qualification for being one is. Other than violating my sense of aesthetics, that is.)

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Oh I know the Alfa grill and the Peugot logo. I have no idea who is involved in the production of smart cars though (or what the precise qualification for being one is. Other than violating my sense of aesthetics, that is.)

Oh sorry, bad wording on my behalf, what I should have said is the Peugeot 407 Coupé could aesthetically wise be a japanese car, a korean car, a chinese car and only the hell knows how long until an indian car… meaning it has no personality whatsoever. Every line from the Alfa speaks 'we like cars' while the Peugeot is kind of 'hey look, we have a coupe among our range of cars', yeah and bicycles… and motorcycles…

[Dakar the Fourth]

I get it. Yeah the coupe was a little generic.

[TheWOAT]

No love for LeCar?

[angelmb]

Ah, the Renault 5, sure it was great, and the Super5 that came later was really nice, there is the Renault Clio III (generation 3) nowadays, but as Eva said, the Renault Modus is funnier, it's sure a trend setter very much like the Renault twingo was fifteen years ago.

[EuropeBetterThanAmerica]

Finally back! There was a Brabus available so I picked it all right and went to city test.
What a surprising car. The Brabus has a rear 0.9l turbo petrol engine (100HP) and gets only 4.9 lt/100km I am amazed at how many surprises this car gave to bigger and powerful cars on the city LOL On the autobahn is has a electronic limited speed of 155km/h but the garage told me there is a trick to push the limit to 180km/h

Thank you for the comments on other cars bus this is unbeatable on the city. I always found a slot to park free.

[turtle777]

What's a Brabus ?

I only know of the car tuning company.

-t

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

What's a Brabus ?

I only know of the car tuning company.

-t

That's them. They do Smart products now alongside their Benz stuff, so that's what I think he's talking about.

[turtle777]

A smart using 4.9 l/100km ?

Doesn't sound too amazing to me.

-t

[analogika]

A Brabus-tuned sports car doing 4.9L/100km does, though.

[is not]

Yes is the tunning company



Well done, but yours is not the ultimate, is it? More power, more eyecatching

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by is not 

Well done, but yours is not the ultimate, is it? More power, more eyecatching

Unfortunately, it still has the same crappy transmission. That would keep me from it.

[Jens Peter]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Unfortunately, it still has the same crappy transmission. That would keep me from it.

Sorry for asking, but what's so crappy about it? I mean, yes it's slower that Ferraris 75ms in their 430, but for me anyways, its still better than any automatic I've ever driven...

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Jens Peter 

Sorry for asking, but what's so crappy about it? I mean, yes it's slower that Ferraris 75ms in their 430, but for me anyways, its still better than any automatic I've ever driven...

Actually it is slower than nearly any other transmission. The clutches are ridiculously slow to take up, it shifts so slowly the whole car rocks back and forth as if it lost power then found it again. Driving it manually helps a bit, but it is still much to slow. A conventional automatic or CVT would have worked a thousand times better. Or, better yet a stick shift. The ForFour has one, and the ForTwo should too.

[frido:mac]

I can only recommend the Audi A2:
(if you can still get one, they were discountinued in June 2005)


Great Mileage, great interiour and loads of space in a small package...:-)

Bye, Frido.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Actually it is slower than nearly any other transmission. The clutches are ridiculously slow to take up, it shifts so slowly the whole car rocks back and forth as if it lost power then found it again. Driving it manually helps a bit, but it is still much to slow. A conventional automatic or CVT would have worked a thousand times better. Or, better yet a stick shift. The ForFour has one, and the ForTwo should too.

Have you actually driven one? It's not anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be. It is not and never will be confused with a performance transmission but it is perfectly drivable. As for the ForFour, it's not really related, aside from brand name, to the ForTwo. It's got the engine and transmission from a mitsubishi colt- no real bearing on the ForTwo.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

84 HP? looks like those guys need to go back to the drawing board!!

In the states, the Nissan Versa gets MORE HP, seats TWO MORE PEOPLE and has BETTER gas mileage than a smart car. Oh, and costs less!

What? How do you figure that? We're actually also considering a new car specifically for the purposes of saving money (my wife has a fairly long commute with no choice but to take the car that costs us about $9/day in gas). I just went to both the Nissan and Smart websites and 'built my own' Versa and ForTwo to meet our needs (so not the absolute base model, but entirely comparable in terms of features and extras). The Smart was about $300 cheaper, and according to the numbers on their websites gets approximately 8 more miles per gallon. Although I did notice that the Smart requires minimum 91 octane gas which obviously raises the TCO somewhat.

[angelmb]

That doesn't make any sense, the Versa is even bigger than its cousin Renault Megane, which is bigger than a Renault Clio, which is bigger than a Renault twingo which is bigger than a ForTwo, how is it going to get better mileage than the ForTwo ??

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Actually it is slower than nearly any other transmission. The clutches are ridiculously slow to take up, it shifts so slowly the whole car rocks back and forth as if it lost power then found it again. Driving it manually helps a bit, but it is still much to slow. A conventional automatic or CVT would have worked a thousand times better. Or, better yet a stick shift. The ForFour has one, and the ForTwo should too.

You're exaggerating. It's nowhere near as bad an experience as you're describing. Matter of fact it's pretty much like any other automatic car.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

You're exaggerating. It's nowhere near as bad an experience as you're describing. Matter of fact it's pretty much like any other automatic car.

Not any automatic car I've driven (and I've driven a lot). Perhaps the European version is different than the US one, IDK. But I've heard people in the UK complain about it too. It seems to me that a Versa is a much better car. But no, I literally could feel the weight shift as if it had lost power, and then found it again.

[nonhuman]

I find the same to be true of the automatic transmission in the Mini. I can't stand driving those. I assume the manual is much better, but Zipcar only has the automatics...

[EuropeBetterThanAmerica]

The shift paddles improves the gear feeling. The Fortwo has nothing in comparison to the nissan versa. It is other class of car. Try the petrol engines, revving up them, like I do on the Brabus, and get the mileage wrote by Nissan-san. You probably would be double the numbers of the smarty. Its most frugal engine is the Renault's sourceded dCi and gets less mileages than the petrol turbo Brabus

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by analogika 

A Brabus-tuned sports car doing 4.9L/100km does, though.

I'm on the way out the door, but hmm... "Brabus-tuned sports car" sounds a little far-fetched. What are it's sports car numbers? 0-60, quarter mile etc.

It's a brabus-tuned smart car. -_-

And I guess I'm off on the mileage, but the Versa is quite close in mileage figures. The Smart has one redeeming quality: parkability.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by frido:mac 

I can only recommend the Audi A2:
(if you can still get one, they were discountinued in June 2005)


Great Mileage, great interiour and loads of space in a small package...:-)

Bye, Frido.

BMW 1 Series.

[Jens Peter]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Actually it is slower than nearly any other transmission. The clutches are ridiculously slow to take up, it shifts so slowly the whole car rocks back and forth as if it lost power then found it again. Driving it manually helps a bit, but it is still much to slow. A conventional automatic or CVT would have worked a thousand times better. Or, better yet a stick shift. The ForFour has one, and the ForTwo should too.

Well, I think it's all about temper then - I can drive mine so you really can feel the gear changes, but then again, I can drive it so you cant. But thats the same in all cars.
And I can only comment on those automatic cars I've driven in the US - and they were really nothing to get excited about... But then again, it was rentals, so perhaps we drove them different from if it was our own cars.