[Cody Dawg]

Regarding the latest fighting over Gaza and the Palestinians abducting and killing young men (teenagers) I just want to say that I think that Israel has a right to wage war and I, for one, am proud of them standing up for what is right.

GO ISRAEL - - WE SUPPORT YOU

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Regarding the latest fighting over Gaza and the Palestinians abducting and killing young men (teenagers) I just want to say that I think that Israel has a right to wage war and I, for one, am proud of them standing up for what is right.

GO ISRAEL - - WE SUPPORT YOU

If they'd fight a war they might have a few friends in this world. Committing blatant war crimes and ethnic cleansing on the other hand...........

[Cody Dawg]

Oh, that's rich, von Wrangell.

At least they treat their women with equality and dignity and respect, something the Muslims cannot achieve.

[aberdeenwriter]

Palestinian Authority political leaders
advocated kidnapping-for-hostage policy
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook - June 27, 2006

Foreign Minister, Mahmud Al-Zahar:
Hamas will not hesitate to kidnap Israeli soldiers "to exchange for [Palestinian] prisoners, should the opportunity arise."
[Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, March 7, 2006]

Interior Minister Saed Siam:
"It is inevitable to kidnap soldiers to exchange for them... There is nothing the resistance cannot do. And when there is a goal and a good plan, the goal can be achieved... [In the past] Hamas succeeded in kidnapping and hiding bodies, but unfortunately, two bodies were handed over for nothing."
[Undated video clip from Abu Dhabi TV - before Hamas came into power]

Introduction:

The Palestinian Authority political leadership has been attempting to distance itself from the kidnapping of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Yesterday, PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas instructed PA Prime Minister Haniyeh and Interior Minister Saed Siam to “guarantee the release of the abducted soldier.” [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, June 27, 2006]

However, one must question the sincerity of such public displays, especially by the Hamas leadership. A review of policy articulated by Hamas political leaders, including Interior Minister Siam himself and the PA Foreign Minister, shows that it was the avowed policy of the Hamas political leadership to kidnap Israeli soldiers as hostages to exchange for terrorists.

There's another clear show of support for the kidnapping from the political leadership. The Hamas website, Palestine-info.net, has celebrated the killings and kidnapping in graphic posters of smoldering and destroyed Israeli positions, with the words: "Smashed Illusion Operation", and "Crushing Blow on Zionist Enemy". [See opposite and below]

Another poster in English on their web site has the names of the three groups accepting responsibility, which includes the Al Qassam Brigades of Hamas, followed by the words:
"In the first movie - Mission 1 - Be Back!" [See below]

http://www.pmw.org.il/LatestBulletins.htm#b300506

Lest anyone think that Hamas is not supportive of and directly behind the kidnapping.

[Cody Dawg]

As usual, you're "The Point Man" Aberdeenwriter.

[Cody Dawg]

The only thing I do regret, terribly, is that children get hurt and maimed and killed.

I wish there was a way to protect all children regardless of nationality or religion.

[Doofy]

Good spot Abe.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

As usual, you're "The Point Man" Aberdeenwriter.

Good thread.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Good spot Abe.

Thanks mate!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

The only thing I do regret, terribly, is that children get hurt and maimed and killed.

I wish there was a way to protect all children regardless of nationality or religion.

Even when they are being naughty?



And in another example of children who need to be protected (from their parents)...

Here's a cute scene from the school play.

http://www.terrorists-suck.org/why_suck/berg_kids.avi

[Cody Dawg]

That's a good cartoon...

That isn't a child though...it's just one of those midget Muslims...they're so short...maybe that's why they're always pissed off...they have Napoleon complexes.

[Monique]

It is true, children should be more protected especially from the parents (Palestinians) that put them in arms way. Palestinians today choose to live in squatters and continue this stupid war against Israel. There is no way young Palestinians would remember what it was like before 1948. They should give it up and start a new life elsewhere. There is no ethnic cleansing from Israel; they are defending themselves against bloodthirsty as....

And if Palestine was such a paradise before 1948 when the terrorists were in charge so why can't they start a paradise elsewhere??

I support Israel in whatever they have to do to protect their country.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

That's a good cartoon...

That isn't a child though...it's just one of those midget Muslims...they're so short...maybe that's why they're always pissed off...they have Napoleon complexes.

ROFLMAO

[Cody Dawg]

Hey, Monique, watch out for von Wrangell...he'll start a Fatwah against us for daring to say anything anti-Palestinian...especially since we're women...

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Oh, that's rich, von Wrangell.

At least they treat their women with equality and dignity and respect, something the Muslims cannot achieve.

I don't disagree with you on how women should be treated, but women are also treated as second class citizens in Japan. We simply can't extend and project our moral sensibilities upon all other countries, or there would simply be no end. I'm simply speaking pragmatically here.

I haven't been reading about this later chapter, but I've found that if you peel back all of the layers you see that neither side is completely innocent.

[Cody Dawg]

In Japan women have the right to vote and work, besson.

Not so in most Muslim countries.

And, they don't have to shroud themselves from head to toe even in extreme heat - that's just sadistic.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Hey, Monique, watch out for von Wrangell...he'll start a Fatwah against us for daring to say anything anti-Palestinian...especially since we're women...

But, you see I do not care because I know that Israel is right. They have a primordial right to protect themselves and their children.

If the few Palestinians terrorists that exist in the world could get a grip and realize that they will never never get back a country that they have never known and get on with their lives, we will all be better of.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Monique

It is true, children should be more protected especially from the parents (Palestinians) that put them in arms way. Palestinians today choose to live in squatters and continue this stupid war against Israel. There is no way young Palestinians would remember what it was like before 1948. They should give it up and start a new life elsewhere. There is no ethnic cleansing from Israel; they are defending themselves against bloodthirsty as....

And if Palestine was such a paradise before 1948 when the terrorists were in charge so why can't they start a paradise elsewhere??

I support Israel in whatever they have to do to protect their country.

The comment I made about their parents actually tends to minimize the real depth of the problem.

When we here have had our basic beliefs questioned we have seen people get angry, become unable to think beyond the possibility of there being any other way of seeing things. These passionately held beliefs regarding social customs and politics and cars and movies and inconsequential elective issues have produced great disagreements and much anger and frustration.

Well, try this. You absolutely believe the following: An enemy of your God, your Prophet and your religion for more than a thousand years has a thriving nation in the heart of 'your lands' and they have absolutely no right to it. What's more, they have abused and tortured and oppressed and humiliated and tyrannized you and your people. They have EVERYTHING and you have nothing. It is true. It is taught in the schools. The school books have maps that do not even mention the existence of Israel. The media all say it. The government leaders all agree. The great leader of Iran promises we will be victorious soon. The butcher, Saddam even reached out to commend our fight by paying the families for the sacrifice of the martyrs. People in the Great Satan USA even protest for your cause. Everybody believes it, they KNOW it is true! And your leaders and your parents and your grandparents and teachers and friends all say that the only way to fight this terrible injustice is to make every person a holy warrior of Allah.

If only EVERY child was committed to defeating the oppressors THEN we would have freedom.

How can anyone NOT be affected by this?

The Palestinians that do believe this are passionate and persuasive in their naive belief of these lies.

The more cynical are aware of the truth but recognize this as the most effective tactic and so they play that same game until they win or die. There is no thought of surrender when this strategy and beliefs are producing these kinds of results and gaining the attention and sympathy of the world.

[Monique]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

The comment I made about their parents actually tends to minimize the real depth of the problem.

When we here have had our basic beliefs questioned we have seen people get angry, become unable to think beyond the possibility of there being any other way of seeing things. These passionately held beliefs regarding social customs and politics and cars and movies and inconsequential elective issues have produced great disagreements and much anger and frustration.

Well, try this. You absolutely believe the following: An enemy of your God, your Prophet and your religion for more than a thousand years has a thriving nation in the heart of 'your lands' and they have absolutely no right to it. What's more, they have abused and tortured and oppressed and humiliated and tyrannized you and your people. They have EVERYTHING and you have nothing. It is true. It is taught in the schools. The school books have maps that do not even mention the existence of Israel. The media all say it. The government leaders all agree. The great leader of Iran promises we will be victorious soon. The butcher, Saddam even reached out to commend our fight by paying the families for the sacrifice of the martyrs. People in the Great Satan USA even protest for your cause. Everybody believes it, they KNOW it is true! And your leaders and your parents and your grandparents and teachers and friends all say that the only way to fight this terrible injustice is to make every person a holy warrior of Allah.

If only EVERY child was committed to defeating the oppressors THEN we would have freedom.

How can anyone NOT be affected by this?

The Palestinians that do believe this are passionate and persuasive in their naive belief of these lies.

The more cynical are aware of the truth but recognize this as the most effective tactic and so they play that same game until they win or die. There is no thought of surrender when this strategy and beliefs are producing these kinds of results and gaining the attention and sympathy of the world.

Even though we are at opposite end sometimes; I always appreciate our conversations.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Monique

If the few Palestinians terrorists that exist in the world could get a grip and realize that they will never never get back a country that they have never known and get on with their lives, we will all be better of.

Few ? The Majority supports terror, whatever happens to them is by their own design.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

If they'd fight a war they might have a few friends in this world. Committing blatant war crimes and ethnic cleansing on the other hand...........

Israel already has few friends in the world, screw what other people think.

What you consider ethnic cleansing and war crimes, I consider cool and neccesary.

[MinM]

Originally Posted by besson3c

I don't disagree with you on how women should be treated, but women are also treated as second class citizens in Japan. We simply can't extend and project our moral sensibilities upon all other countries, or there would simply be no end. I'm simply speaking pragmatically here.

Did you actually just compare the treatment of women in Japan to the treatment of women in Muslim-ruled countries?

[Cody Dawg]

Yeah, von Wrangell...please define "ethnic cleansing" for us?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by Monique

Even though we are at opposite end sometimes; I always appreciate our conversations.

How very kind of you. Thank you, Monique!

Your passion and feisty, indomitable spirit are your hallmarks!

[Cody Dawg]

Let's see...

We have just now warned North Korea that if they launch any missiles we're going to take offensive action against them...

We have just informed Iran that they have no later than next week to give up their aspirations of nuclear dreams...

Israel is talking about invading Syria...

Egypt is sending its troops and tanks to the border of Gaza...

Australia is angry because the Jewish settler that Hamas killed is from Australia originally...

This is all shaping up nicely into a cluster****, you know?

[ink]

Congratulations for voting in Hamas, Palestine. Things were actually getting better for a while there.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

In Japan women have the right to vote and work, besson.

Not so in most Muslim countries.

Without looking it up, do you know if women have the right to work and vote in the Occupied Territories? Because if you did know the answer, you'd realise that you shot yourself in the foot with that comment.

"Go Israel!" Cody Dawg - self-appointed cheerleader to carnage.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by ink

Congratulations for voting in Hamas, Palestine. Things were actually getting better for a while there.

Don't expect to see many of these from the Palestinians...

[Monique]

Originally Posted by Troll

Without looking it up, do you know if women have the right to work and vote in the Occupied Territories? Because if you did know the answer, you'd realise that you shot yourself in the foot with that comment.

"Go Israel!" Cody Dawg - self-appointed cheerleader to carnage.

Of course they work and take care of the house, unfortunatly many men sit around do nothing and by having too much time on their hands they only think about destroying others.

Do you really think Israel would go around and drop bombs if the Palestinians would be peaceful people? The only reason why Israel is doing what it is doing, is because they are attack cowardly by terrorists and for the first times in their history, those Jews decided we are not going to be victims anymore, we are going to fight back. Good for them.

When you look at what happened to them just during the 2nd world war, you can understand why they have decided to fight back as they should.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

In Japan women have the right to vote and work, besson.

Not so in most Muslim countries.

And, they don't have to shroud themselves from head to toe even in extreme heat - that's just sadistic.

Women are subservient to their husbands there. Granted, women have more rights in Japan than in the ME, but compared to our Western sensibilities, their rights are limited.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally Posted by Monique

It is true, children should be more protected especially from the parents (Palestinians) that put them in arms way. Palestinians today choose to live in squatters and continue this stupid war against Israel. There is no way young Palestinians would remember what it was like before 1948. They should give it up and start a new life elsewhere. There is no ethnic cleansing from Israel; they are defending themselves against bloodthirsty as....

And if Palestine was such a paradise before 1948 when the terrorists were in charge so why can't they start a paradise elsewhere??

I support Israel in whatever they have to do to protect their country.

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

In Japan women have the right to vote and work, besson.

Not so in most Muslim countries.

And, they don't have to shroud themselves from head to toe even in extreme heat - that's just sadistic.

You know it really is a good idea to at least attempt to develop a basic understanding of what you're talking about before you post.

Your comments are both uneducated and bigoted.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MinM

Did you actually just compare the treatment of women in Japan to the treatment of women in Muslim-ruled countries?

I was wrong to imply a direct comparison, but in relative terms our own sensibilities would be offended by how women are treated in Japan.

[Cody Dawg]

Troll

Without looking it up, do you know if women have the right to work and vote in the Occupied Territories? Because if you did know the answer, you'd realise that you shot yourself in the foot with that comment.

"Go Israel!" Cody Dawg - self-appointed cheerleader to carnage.

Actually, I know my facts but I'll look it up, yes.

Unless otherwise indicated, the date signifies the year women were granted the right both to vote and to stand for election. The countries listed below currently have a Parliament or have had one at some point in their history.

1788 United States of America (to stand for election)
1893 New Zealand (to vote)
1902 Australia*
1906 Finland
1907 Norway (to stand for election)*
1913 Norway**
1915 Denmark, Iceland*
1917 Canada (to vote)*, Netherlands (to stand for election)
1918 Austria, Canada (to vote)*, Estonia, Georgia1, Germany, Hungary, Ireland*, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Russian Federation, United Kingdom*
1919 Belarus, Belgium (to vote)*, Luxembourg, Netherlands (to vote), New Zealand (to stand for election), Sweden*, Ukraine


British suffragette poster of 1905


1920 Albania, Canada (to stand for election)*, Czech Republic, Iceland**, Slovakia, United States of America (to vote)
1921 Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belgium (to stand for election)*, Georgia1, Sweden**
1924 Kazakhstan1, Mongolia, Saint Lucia, Tajikistan
1927 Turkmenistan
1928 Ireland**, United Kingdom**
1929 Ecuador*, Romania*
1930 South Africa (Whites), Turkey (to vote)
1931 Chile*, Portugal*, Spain, Sri Lanka
1932 Brazil, Maldives, Thailand, Uruguay
1934 Cuba, Portugal*, Turkey (to stand for election)
1935 Myanmar (to vote)
1937 Philippines
1938 Bolivia*, Uzbekistan
1939 El Salvador (to vote)
1941 Panama*
1942 Dominican Republic
1944 Bulgaria, France, Jamaica
1945 Croatia, Guyana (to stand for election), Indonesia, Italy, Japan1, Senegal, Slovenia, Togo
1946 Cameroon, D.P.R. of Korea, Djibouti (to vote), Guatemala, Liberia, Myanmar (to stand for election), Panama**, Romania**, The F.Y.R. of Macedonia, Trinidad and Tobago, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yugoslavia
1947 Argentina, Japan1, Malta, Mexico (to vote), Pakistan, Singapore
1948 Belgium**, Israel, Niger, Republic of Korea, Seychelles, Suriname
1949 Bosnia and Herzegovina, Chile**, China, Costa Rica, Syrian Arab Republic (to vote)*
1950 Barbados, Canada (to vote)**, Haiti, India
1951 Antigua and Barbuda, Dominica, Grenada, Nepal, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
1952 Bolivia**, Côte d'Ivoire, Greece, Lebanon
1953 Bhutan, Guyana (to vote), Mexico (to stand for election), Syrian Arab Republic**
1954 Belize, Colombia, Ghana
1955 Cambodia, Eritrea2, Ethiopia, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru
1956 Benin, Comoros, Egypt, Gabon, Mali, Mauritius, Somalia
1957 Malaysia, Zimbabwe (to vote)**
1958 Burkina Faso, Chad, Guinea, Lao P.D.R., Nigeria (South)
1959 Madagascar, San Marino (to vote), Tunisia, United Republic of Tanzania
1960 Canada (to stand for election)**, Cyprus, Gambia, Tonga
1961 Bahamas*, Burundi, El Salvador (to stand for election), Malawi, Mauritania, Paraguay, Rwanda, Sierra Leone
1962 Algeria, Australia**, Monaco, Uganda, Zambia
1963 Afghanistan, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Fiji, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Kenya, Morocco, Papua New Guinea (to stand for election)
1964 Bahamas**, Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, Papua New Guinea (to vote), Sudan
1965 Bostwana, Lesotho
1967 Democratic Republic of the Congo (to vote), Ecuador**, Kiribati, Tuvalu, Yemen (D.P. R.)
1968 Nauru, Swaziland
1970 Andorra (to vote), Democratic Republic of the Congo (to stand for election), Yemen (Arab Republic)
1971 Switzerland
1972 Bangladesh
1973 Andorra (to stand for election), Bahrain3, San Marino (to stand for election)
1974 Jordan, Solomon Islands
1975 Angola, Cape Verde, Mozambique, Sao Tome and Principe, Vanuatu1
1976 Portugal**
1977 Guinea Bissau
1978 Nigeria (North), Republic of Moldova1, Zimbabwe (to stand for election)
1979 Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Fed. States), Palau
1980 Iraq, Vanuatu1
1984 Liechtenstein, South Africa (Coloureds + Indians)
1986 Central African Republic, Djibouti (to stand for election)
1989 Namibia
1990 Samoa
1993 Kazakhstan1, Republic of Moldova1
1994 South Africa (Blacks)
2005 Kuwait

Although women now make up more than half of all graduates from Saudi universities, they comprise only 5% of the kingdom's workforce. They cannot vote, take an open and active part of public life or even drive a car.

The BBC spoke to eight young Saudi women, aged between 17 and 27, who attend a private college in Jeddah. The women have revealed snapshots of their lives and spoke of their aspirations for the future in a country which has long constrained their freedom.

Their stories form part of a BBC World Service Trust project called My Life, which focuses on educating young women in various Arab countries through the innovative use of media and asks them where they would like to be by 2015. It is conducted jointly with BBCArabic.com.

Link

Let's see...women JUST got the right to vote in Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Why? Because the United States got involved with Afghanistan and Iraq when we liberated them.

You want to talk about suppression? You want to talk about how women even supposedly afforded "rights" still are suppressed?

Lets:

Women's Rights in Middle East and North Africa

The human rights of women throughout the Middle East and North Africa are systematically denied by each of the countries in the region, despite the diversity of their political systems. Many governments routinely suppress civil society by restricting freedom of the press, expression, and assembly. These restrictions adversely affect both men and women; however, women are subject to a host of additional gender-specific human rights violations. For example, family, penal, and citizenship laws throughout the region relegate women to a subordinate status compared to their male counterparts. This legal discrimination undermines women's full personhood and equal participation in society and puts women at an increased risk for violence.

Family matters in countries as diverse as Iran, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia are governed by religion-based personal status codes. Many of these laws treat women essentially as legal minors under the eternal guardianship of their male family members. They deny women equal rights with men with respect to marriage, divorce, child custody; and inheritance. Family decision making is thought to be the exclusive domain of men, who enjoy by default the legal status of "head of household." These notions are supported by family courts in the region that often reinforce the primacy of male decision-making power. These courts have rarely appointed women as judges, further denying women authority in family matters.

While husbands can divorce their spouses easily (often instantaneously through oral repudiation), wives' access to divorce is often extremely limited, and they frequently confront near insurmountable legal and financial obstacles. In Lebanon, battered women cannot file for divorce on the basis of abuse without the testimony of an eyewitness. A medical certificate from a doctor documenting physical abuse is simply not good enough. Although women in Egypt can now legally initiate a divorce without cause, they must agree not only to renounce all rights to the couple's finances, but must also re-pay their dowries. Essentially, they have to buy their freedom. In Bahrain, where family law is not codified, judges have complete power to deny women custody of their children for the most arbitrary reasons. Bahraini women who have been courageous enough to expose and challenge these violations in 2003 are currently being sued for slander by eleven family court judges.

Though some women's rights activists in the region are working within shari'a (Islamic law) to promote women's human rights, others are calling for a clear separation of religion and government in part because of the ways that a rise in religious fundamentalism throughout the region has resulted in further violations of women's rights. Governments routinely join forces with religious figures in order to curtail women's rights, including their sexual autonomy. Many states criminalize adult, consensual sex outside of marriage. Women in Jordan who are thought to have "dishonored" their family have been beaten, shot, or stabbed to death by their male family members. The Jordanian penal code condones these killings by providing the perpetrators of these crimes with reduced sentencing under the law. In Jordan, judges often inappropriately apply a "fit of fury" defense in "honor" crimes cases, even when the murder was clearly premeditated. In Morocco, women are much more likely to be charged with having violated penal code prohibitions on sexual relations outside of marriage than men. Unmarried pregnant women are particularly at risk of prosecution. The Moroccan penal code also considers the rape of a virgin as an aggravating circumstance of assault. The message is clear: the degree of punishment of the perpetrator is determined by the sexual experience of the victim.

The relationship between women and the state in the Middle East and North Africa is essentially mediated by men. In many countries in the region, women's right to vote, to acquire an identity card or passport, to marry, to work, or to travel is granted only with the consent of a spouse or other male family member. Husbands in Egypt and Bahrain, for example, can file an official complaint at the airport to forbid their wives from leaving the country for any reason. Most countries in the region-with the exception of Iran, Tunisia, Israel, and to a limited extent Egypt-have permitted only fathers to pass citizenship on to their children. Women married to non-nationals are denied this fundamental right.

Women's inferior legal status also acts as a deterrent to their full participation in public life. Societal acceptance and enforcement of traditional and unequal gender roles, combined with the need for male authorization to work or travel, have significantly limited women's participation economic and political life. According to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), women in the Arab sub-region occupy only 3.5 percent of all seats in parliament. The sub-region was also ranked next to last in terms of women's participation in economic, professional, and political life. Only sub-Saharan Africa has a lower score.

Women's unequal legal rights increase their vulnerability to violence. In many countries in the region, no specific laws or provisions exist to penalize domestic violence. Many countries have not adopted domestic violence laws, even though domestic violence is a widespread problem. Domestic violence is generally considered to be a private matter outside the state's jurisdiction. Battered women are told to go home if they attempt to file a complaint with the police. Few shelters exist to protect women who fear for their lives. Spousal rape has not been criminalized; husbands have an absolute right to their wives' bodies at all times. Penal codes in several countries in the region also contain provisions that authorize the police and judges to drop charges against a rapist if he agrees to marry his victim.

Women migrants and members of minority groups are especially vulnerable to discrimination and abuse in the region. Non-Muslim women in many countries in the region cannot inherit from their Muslim spouse and are routinely denied custody of children in case of divorce. National labor codes that protect migrant labor also specifically exclude domestic workers, who are predominantly female. Domestic workers in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, for example, cannot leave the country without their employer's permission, may be forced to work for free, and may be held in virtual round-the-clock confinement during their tenure. These women are also at tremendous risk of physical and sexual abuse. Procedural obstacles thwart migrant workers' access to justice. For example, migrant workers in Bahrain who file a complaint against their employer need to remain in the country and cannot change employers without withdrawing their pending case. Employers have also been known to make up fictitious allegations of theft or illicit affairs with another employee in order to cover up the abuse charges.

The exclusion of domestic workers from labor laws in the Middle East and North Africa makes them especially vulnerable to trafficking. These women who migrate voluntarily and legally to seek better economic opportunities in the region may find themselves deceived by employment agencies and coerced to do work that they had not agreed to, putting them in trafficked situations. Many countries in the region have also repeatedly failed to protect the human rights of women and girls who are trafficked from Eastern Europe and Asia to work in their countries' sex industries. While little is done to stop the traffickers, trafficked women in the region risk being penalized for their actions under laws that prohibit prostitution and extra-marital sex.

Violence and insecurity resulting from war has had particularly detrimental effects on women in Iraq. Insurgent groups have targeted female professionals including politicians, civil servants, journalists, and women's rights activists. These groups have also attacked women for what they considered "immoral" or "un-Islamic" behavior, like dancing, socializing with men or not wearing a hijab, the Islamic headscarf. Iraqi women's participation in the country's reconstruction efforts is also routinely undermined. Iraq's new constitution, adopted in October 2005 through a popular referendum, granted Iraqi women the right to transfer citizenship to their children but failed to explicitly guarantee women equal rights within the family. Iraqi women risk losing many of the right afforded to them in the 1959 civil family law, which may be replaced with regressive sectarian laws derived from the most discriminatory interpretations of shari'a law.

While many countries in the region have ratified the most comprehensive convention on the human rights of women, the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, most have also entered extensive reservations to its provisions due to perceived inconsistencies with shari'a. These reservations have allowed countries to evade their responsibilities under the convention. Persistent and insidious discrimination and violence against women rooted in custom and law remains widespread in the region undermining the very equality guarantees that the convention seeks to promote.

Link

Want more information about how women in the Middle East are suppressed?

So in politics, business, domestic violence, education, marriage, and divorce women in the Middle East are suffering more than in other parts of the world.

Consider the following snapshots from the past few years:

In Kuwait, a decade and a half ago, the now late emir promised women suffrage. But that measure was defeated twice by the parliament, including by some liberals, and only passed late in 2005. It will likely take several years before any women actually get elected to the government.

In Iraq, many women live in virtual terror since several women activists, businesswomen, or those simply considered to be dressed immodestly have been attacked and killed.

In Afghanistan, 51 female candidates withdrew from the last elections because of fear and harassment, while terrorists in 2005 broke into the home of an Afghan school headmaster and beheaded him while forcing his wife and eight children to watch. His crime? Educating girls, which they consider un-Islamic.

In Saudi Arabia, women are not even allowed to drive a car let alone vote. And consider this amazing story. A few years ago during a fire at a girls' middle school, religious police blocked would-be rescuers from entering the building or the students from leaving on grounds that in the scramble to escape the girls were not wearing their proper modest clothing. Fifteen girls died in that accident. Meanwhile, in 2006, a group of female high school students in Saudi Arabia interested in journalism made the grave mistake of getting their photo taken with the male editor of a newspaper they had visited. Their journalism project was promptly cancelled.

In Jordan, about 25 girls die each year in honor killings while the perpetrators, usually their relatives, receive light or no sentences. A move by the king to increase these sentences was defeated in parliament and opposed in public opinion polls. Although women's rights organizations have repeatedly raised the issue, not one country in the Middle East has a law that clearly makes domestic violence a criminal offense.

Link

So, Troll, tell us again how "wrong" I am?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Israel already has few friends in the world, screw what other people think.

What you consider ethnic cleansing and war crimes, I consider cool and neccesary.

Balls! Yeah baby.... FIRE! Balls... be a man! Why dont' we just kill kittens and everything? Screw everybody! Yeah man... I'm stronger than anybody else!

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Women are subservient to their husbands there. Granted, women have more rights in Japan than in the ME, but compared to our Western sensibilities, their rights are limited.

The Japanese seem content to follow that/those/their customs without visiting them on others.

Not so for the Muslim customs. With global domination we'd all be subject to those same customs once we converted to Islam, or else pay for the privilege of living among superior beings (i.e. Muslims...say goodbye to the idea of everyone being equal. ).

Or else be executed.

So, there's a big difference between Japanese customs and Muslim customs. The Muslims want to make sure you follow Allah's word and instructions and commands like they do.

The Japanese don't care what YOU do. Just don't mess with their doing as they wish.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by MinM

Did you actually just compare the treatment of women in Japan to the treatment of women in Muslim-ruled countries?

Yeah, he did. I can't recall the last time a Japanese woman was sentenced to be stoned to death for getting raped in Japan, but my memory must be failing me.

To compare Japanese women with Muslim slave women is the biggest Liberal joke I've seen so far on this forum.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Balls! Yeah baby.... FIRE! Balls... be a man! Why dont' we just kill kittens and everything? Screw everybody! Yeah man... I'm stronger than anybody else!

Yep, in war, that's bascially what it comes down to. When dealing with terrorists, the best solution is to exterminate them.

[Cody Dawg]

besson, I have lived and worked in Japan.

Yes, the older people there have a historically patriarchal society where men run the households and the women are expected to remain in the background.

But that is not the way it is any longer. Women are equals in many ways. In fact, Japan and the United States almost mirror each other in terms of societal and familial structures. Just as in the United States some families have a man who is the primary breadwinner, pays the bills, etc., Japan is the same way. However, just as my husband would not dictate to me whether or not I could or could not do something, it is, for the most part, the same there at this point in time.

The Japanese are even thinking of changing their monarchy. They have never allowed a woman to be the primary empress, but since the crown prince has been unable to produce a son in his marriage, only daughters, they are now considering changing that so that the throne will pass from him to his daughter.

To be honest, I find that the way the Japanese men treat their wives to be exceedingly well. These men adore their wives. Theirs jobs, homes, and providing for their wives and families is part of what constitutes their personal honor. I have friends there who do not work, their husbands do, and on the surface you might think, "These women are subservient to their husbands." But, you should see those men with their wives - they get them credit cards, encourage them to take vacations, buy whatever it is that they want, etc., just so that they are happy. They adore their wives. Most Japanese men are exceedingly polite and kind - they open doors for women, are extremely polite, and very gracious.

And, also, I have close relatives and friends in Italy and Italian society is the same way. It is changing slowly, but it is still very patriarchal there also. I was at dinner at a friend's villa there and he was/is about 35, his wife was/is about 30. We were sitting there having dinner together when all of a sudden he said, "Barbara, pane!" His wife jumped up to grab the bread that was within arm's reach of him on the nearby counter. He expected her to wait on him all of the time, apparently, and I bristled about that and questioned her about that. She defended him and told me a story about how when she had met him when she was in medical school that she'd told him she was having a problem paying tuition to stay in school and he kindly offered to loan her the money until she could finish school. That was how she became involved with him. Italian men remind me of Japanese men in the way that they adore their wives.

So, although some societies are changing very slowly - including some American traditions - the truth is that most Western societies now have a man as the voluntary head of the household by choice and not because the man simply suppresses his wife. The truth is that though I can do everything my husband does, I'm grateful that he chooses to be alpha in our household. He is the primary breadwinner, he makes sure the bills are all paid, he is always in charge - and I'm grateful for that. At the same time, he would never tell me what to do or not to do and he respects me and encourages me to do what pleases me. I feel that we are 100% equal - he never makes a serious decision without talking to me first and I do the same with him. We are a team and equals.

In short, I don't fear men or my husband in this country the way that women fear men and their husbands in the Middle East.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

Actually, I know my facts but I'll look it up, yes.

So, Troll, tell us again how "wrong" I am?

What you need to do is go out and buy yourself a map and then notice how the black lines on the map mark different countries. Notice that none of those countries are called Muslimistan - that the Middle East is not Israel and a viscous mass of Muslims. The debate you started was about the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis. Your response to Von Wrangell was to say that at least Israeli women can vote. Obviously MY post was too subtle for you because you then waste all that space and all our bandwidth with a list that has no bearing on the discussion. WOMEN IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES have been able to vote for as long as men in the occupied territories have been able to vote. So, in the comparison between the Palestinians and Israel, Israel doesn't treat women any better. See now why you shot yourself in the foot?

Of course, the reason you made that mistake is because you think all Palestinians are Muslim and all Palestinians are terrorists. I agree that your comments in here are heavily bigotted.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter

The Japanese seem content to follow that/those/their customs without visiting them on others.

Not so for the Muslim customs. With global domination we'd all be subject to those same customs once we converted to Islam, or else pay for the privilege of living among superior beings (i.e. Muslims...say goodbye to the idea of everyone being equal. ).

Or else be executed.

So, there's a big difference between Japanese customs and Muslim customs. The Muslims want to make sure you follow Allah's word and instructions and commands like they do.

The Japanese don't care what YOU do. Just don't mess with their doing as they wish.

Global domination? Just stop Abe, STOP. You not onlysound completely paranoid, but ridiculous even asserting that this possibility exists. Maybe they would *like* global domination, but so do a lot of people. Even the US or Chinese probably couldn't obtain global domination alone.

This isn't a movie Abe. Are your wild fantasies really behind our motiviation for posting here so much?

Sorry to be blunt Abe, but you ought to know that this is crazy talk.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Yep, in war, that's bascially what it comes down to. When dealing with terrorists, the best solution is to exterminate them.

And all Palestinians are terrorists according to you, so how was it that you wanted to refute the ethnic cleansing charge?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

Of course, the reason you made that mistake is because you think all Palestinians are Muslim and all Palestinians are terrorists. I agree that your comments in here are heavily bigotted.

Not all Paleostinians are Muslim, just the overwhelming majority, like 97%.

And no not all Paleostinians are terrorists, just the majority, the majority that elected the terrorist government of Hamas.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Sorry to be blunt Abe, but you ought to know that this is crazy talk.

Which would make this different from anything he's ever posted under any of his logins different how?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

And all Palestinians are terrorists according to you, so how was it that you wanted to refute the ethnic cleansing charge?

Not all, the majority.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

besson, I have lived and worked in Japan.

Yes, the older people there have a historically patriarchal society where men run the households and the women are expected to remain in the background.

But that is not the way it is any longer. Women are equals in many ways. In fact, Japan and the United States almost mirror each other in terms of societal and familial structures. Just as in the United States some families have a man who is the primary breadwinner, pays the bills, etc., Japan is the same way. However, just as my husband would not dictate to me whether or not I could or could not do something, it is, for the most part, the same there at this point in time.

The Japanese are even thinking of changing their monarchy. They have never allowed a woman to be the primary empress, but since the crown prince has been unable to produce a son in his marriage, only daughters, they are now considering changing that so that the throne will pass from him to his daughter.

To be honest, I find that the way the Japanese men treat their wives to be exceedingly well. These men adore their wives. Theirs jobs, homes, and providing for their wives and families is part of what constitutes their personal honor. I have friends there who do not work, their husbands do, and on the surface you might think, "These women are subservient to their husbands." But, you should see those men with their wives - they get them credit cards, encourage them to take vacations, buy whatever it is that they want, etc., just so that they are happy. They adore their wives. Most Japanese men are exceedingly polite and kind - they open doors for women, are extremely polite, and very gracious.

And, also, I have close relatives and friends in Italy and Italian society is the same way. It is changing slowly, but it is still very patriarchal there also. I was at dinner at a friend's villa there and he was/is about 35, his wife was/is about 30. We were sitting there having dinner together when all of a sudden he said, "Barbara, pane!" His wife jumped up to grab the bread that was within arm's reach of him on the nearby counter. He expected her to wait on him all of the time, apparently, and I bristled about that and questioned her about that. She defended him and told me a story about how when she had met him when she was in medical school that she'd told him she was having a problem paying tuition to stay in school and he kindly offered to loan her the money until she could finish school. That was how she became involved with him. Italian men remind me of Japanese men in the way that they adore their wives.

So, although some societies are changing very slowly - including some American traditions - the truth is that most Western societies now have a man as the voluntary head of the household by choice and not because the man simply suppresses his wife. The truth is that though I can do everything my husband does, I'm grateful that he chooses to be alpha in our household. He is the primary breadwinner, he makes sure the bills are all paid, he is always in charge - and I'm grateful for that. At the same time, he would never tell me what to do or not to do and he respects me and encourages me to do what pleases me. I feel that we are 100% equal - he never makes a serious decision without talking to me first.

In short, I don't fear men or my husband in this country the way that women fear men and their husbands in the Middle East.

My information about Japan is probably outdated. However, my basic point remains. Even if you are comparing the Western world to the way Japan was 10-20 years ago (which wasn't too long ago), it is simply counter-productive to try to make other cultures be more like ours. At the end of the day, they are going to run things the way they want, and that is fine.

On a moral level, yes I believe that women should have all sorts of rights. I believe that women are sometimes discrimated against even in this country. However, it simply doesn't seem practical to expect the rest of the world to confirm to our sensibilities.

I believe this is called Ethocentricity.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by besson3c

At the end of the day, they are going to run things the way they want, and that is fine.
.

No, it's not fine. Bloodthirsty savages are not allowed to do what they want.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Troll

Which would make this different from anything he's ever posted under any of his logins different how?

He often has interesting arguments, but I didn't honestly think that this belief was seriously at the root and origin of his posting. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

[Cody Dawg]

I think it's good to ensure that women are not abused and killed in other countries, besson.

Don't you?

How can you ignore suffering of other human beings?

I cannot.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by besson3c

My information about Japan is probably outdated.

She's lived there and worked there, and yet you still admit to be ignorant of the situation and continue to argue ?

[Cody Dawg]

Actually, I lived and worked there in 1982 to 1985 off and on. Twenty years ago.