[jfischetti]

So will iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes still be free??
...and we'll have to buy iDVD and GarageBand

he really didn't say .....

[powerbook867]

this is a question I would like to see answered as well. Iphoto and Imovie have been due for an upgrade for quite sometime....

[zelig2]

The last time iLife came out people had to buy it if they wanted to get the new iMovie. Looking at the Apple site it doesn't look like you can download iPhoto for free right now. iTunes looks to be the only app thats free. I'm really considering buying this for the faster iPhoto ability, just wish I didn't have to buy it, an upgrade would be nice.

[andy_boyd]

Well I don't see the usual "Download Now" link anywhere on the iLife pages, only "Buy Now". It couldn't be? Could it?

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by andy_boyd:
Well I don't see the usual "Download Now" link anywhere on the iLife pages, only "Buy Now". It couldn't be? Could it?

It's possible the download buttons are missing because the new versions are not yet available.

I'm hoping iMovie and iPhoto will still be free downloads, and you pay if you want iDVD and GarageBand.

[fetopher]

Well you only see buy now because you can pre-buy it, but not pre-download it. It won't be available to buy or download until Jan. 16. My guess is that iPhoto and iTunes will remain free, if you want anything else, you have to buy the pack.

[BZ]

I just placed my order for the Family pack... $79 up to five computers for 5 apps... seems pretty cheap to me.

BZ

[JLFanboy]

The last time iLife came out people had to buy it if they wanted to get the new iMovie.

Actually, iMovie was also available for free download. The only one that cost money was iDVD, simply because there was no way that you could download all the necessary theme files. Well, there were probably some other factors, but that was a big one.

I also hope that the only ones we'll have to pay for are iDVD and GarageBand. My only concern is the system requirements. I can't seem to find a clear answer on Apple.com. I have a 400 MHz G4; is that fast enough to run GarageBand? They say you need a 600 MHz G3 to run it, but are all G4s included? Does anybody have any clue?

[Jeff Edsell]

GarageBand alone seems worth the price of admission to me. Can't wait.

[cschmelz]

Originally posted by Jeff Edsell:
GarageBand alone seems worth the price of admission to me. Can't wait.

So does this represent the new theme?

$129 OS update every year or so and continuing to pay for previously free applications?!?

When is the new version of Safari going to be $19.95?

When is the new version of iSync going to be $9.95?

ARGH!!!!

[darrick]

looks to me like the Apple site's links to download iPhoto 2 (the current free app) lead back to the iLife-buy-it page.

and, if i remember right, steve always made it clear what was a free download -- you could even download the upgraded app during the keynote.

he wasn't absolutely clear, but i think it looks like the new iPhoto will only be available as part of iLife for $49.

with the ambiguity, maybe they are waiting to see of there will be wails of protest and then make their final decision.

[krove]

Umm....where's the ambiguity? Steve Jobs explicitly states that the updated iLife apps + GarageBand would all be available for $49. Period. End of sentence.

No free downloads, etc.

[RayK]

iPhoto and iMovie are listed as parts of Panther. Its on the box. I don't think that with that they will charge the people that own the OS already. technically by buying Panther or Jag you have already bought iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie. If they move to charge for it, they will be asking for trouble.

I never understood the point of packing in 3 apps of the 4, now 5 apps in the iLife suite when they come with the only OS that they will work on. Why not put Keynote or Appleworks in there instead?

[lars-man]

Originally posted by jfischetti:
So will iPhoto, iMovie and iTunes still be free??
...and we'll have to buy iDVD and GarageBand

he really didn't say .....

Even if only iTunes would be available for free, it is ok. These apps are great and now, after some years, Apple wants to get back the costs for the development. iTunes has to be free because you need it for shopping in the MusicStore. All the other apps are the money worth.

Kind regards, Lars

[Mike S.]

Originally posted by cschmelz:
So does this represent the new theme?

$129 OS update every year or so and continuing to pay for previously free applications?!?

That sounds about right and it's not new.

People have been paying yearly for Mac OS upgrades since Mac OS 8, the difference is the price went up $29 with OS X.

I'm surprised they waited this long to start charging for iLife to be honest. I was expecting the $49 price to kick in last year but they held off.

In the end, you don't have to upgrade anything. If the old apps work for you then they will continue to work for you.

Seeing as I never use iMovie or iDVD and very rarely use iPhoto this means nothing to me. Anybody who uses those apps often and thinks the upgrades look good should be willing to pay the price. It's not unreasonable.

Heck, I just paid $29 for OmniWeb because I use it all the time but mostly because I'm pre-purchasing 5.0 and it has all the features I want in a web browser.

$49 should be nothing to anybody with a half decent job unless they're up to their eyeballs in debt in which case they really have bigger things to worry about than computer software...

When is the new version of Safari going to be $19.95?

When is the new version of iSync going to be $9.95?

It would seem that the cost to upgrade Safari is built into upgrading the OS seeing as no Safari improvements were made for Jaguar users. The same is true of iChat (though they made it available for $29 to Jag users) and I'm guessing the same is true of iSync. Free updates until a new OS comes out then you get the major overhaul built in as an incentive to upgrade.

If you want free software then I suggest you look into Linux or make friends with X11 and Fink because Apple is very much about making money.

[new newton]

Originally posted by RayK:
iPhoto and iMovie are listed as parts of Panther. Its on the box. I don't think that with that they will charge the people that own the OS already. technically by buying Panther or Jag you have already bought iTunes, iPhoto, and iMovie. If they move to charge for it, they will be asking for trouble.

These are new versions. Your old versions that came with the OS won't stop working if you choose not to upgrade.

Why is it that every time Apple charges a fair price for a fine product people complain? There are costs to developing software. If you don't wish to pay your share, then don't. No one is forcing you to. Personally, I think the new program and added functionality in the old programs is worth the cost.

[Peter]

Originally posted by powerbook867:
Iphoto and Imovie have been due for an upgrade for quite sometime....

iPhoto and iMove

[Taipan]

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
iPhoto and iMove

Almost there...

[mishap]

Please.
These will not be free.

iPhoto alone is worth $50.

[nickm]

I suspect iPhoto and iMovie will remain part of "Mac OS X". So, 10.4 will have these updated apps in it. If you want iDVD or GarageBand, for 10.2, 10.3, or 10.4, you'll be asked to pay $50. It's only $30 if you're a student. I'd say it's a deal.

[iBean]

Hmm I'm not sure but I think that this happened with the original iLife: iPhoto and iMovie were only available for download when the cd shipped. This time meaning Jan 16th.

Does anyone remember?

[mishap]

Originally posted by iBean:
Hmm I'm not sure but I think that this happened with the original iLife: iPhoto and iMovie were only available for download when the cd shipped. This time meaning Jan 16th.

Does anyone remember?

back at last year's keynote, steve said they would be a free download...nothing this time around.

iPhoto4 and iMovie4 will not be free.

[iBean]

Originally posted by mishap:
back at last year's keynote, steve said they would be a free download...nothing this time around.

iPhoto4 and iMovie4 will not be free.

Well, if you check iLife's iTunes site you won't find anything saying iTunes can be download for free.

So my guess is that iPhoto and iMovie will be available for download on the 16th...

[darrick]

krove: Umm....where's the ambiguity? Steve Jobs explicitly states that the updated iLife apps + GarageBand would all be available for $49. Period. End of sentence.

in a nutshell, the ambiguity: there has been a course of dealing between Apple Computer and its users that included free downloads of iLife apps which were also available for purchase as part of the iLife package; in the keynote, steve referred to the iLife apps being available for purchase -- he did not say that they would be UNavailable for free download; he did not refer to them being available as part of a paid download; he made no clear statement regarding the free downloads continuing or stopping.

[AC Rempt]

Yeah, I'm with iBean. You'll be able to upgrade existing apps for free, and the new one, Garage Band, will cost you unless you buy a new Mac.

By the way, the package is $29 for educational folks.

[BZ]

A good point... that I want to stress...

Panther ($129) included all the apps... If you want to wait for 10.4 it will include all of this.

What Apple gets is that some people Don't want to upgrade to Panther and want to sit on 10.2.8 for another year or so. These people might want a new version of iMovie, iDVD, iPhoto, etc... now they can get it.

I think they should have thrown iChat AV in there in the bundle.. hey, why not?

BZ

[SOLIDAge]

iLife is $29.99 with Edu Discount.
thats SO cheap, hell...$49 is cheap as hell for these products. I think that it is very fair to start charging for them.

[darrick]

i see a fair side and a not so fair side:

there is a lot of bang for the buck if you get and use all the apps. (but i only use iTunes and iPhoto so i get less bang (story of my life, i know)). so that's sorta 'fair.'

also, i got kinda used to getting it for free. now, looks like i'm gonna get dot-macked (tho maybe not). there is a sort of bait and switch here, not quite as obvious as when dotmac free for life became a paid service but still... so that's sorta not so 'fair.'

i think a lot of people use 'fair' to mean 'nice' or 'acceptable' and i guess i use it that way, too. but i've mainly taken it to mean 'by the rules.'

has apple played by the rules?

[darrick]

from mac osxhints:

"I [robg, the big cheese there] asked someone in the Apple booth about iPhoto and free vs. pay availability. Here's what I was told, at least as of today: The new iPhoto will only be available as part of the iLife '04 package; it will not be downloadable."

the macosxhints page where macworld is the spotlight article with lots of comments

[-Q-]

Originally posted by darrick:
has apple played by the rules?

Depends on who defines the rules. And considering they make the apps, I'd say they make the rules....

But I disagree with your analogy that this is a '.Mac' scenario. In that instance, people who were using a free service would have to pay to continue using it. In this case, you only have to pay to use the new software. You still have the same applications you had before the keynote.

Now, for the value of the apps, I think $49 is fair-especially with all that's included in garage band.

[darrick]

you're right about .mac really being pulled out form under its users. still, this new iLife thing bugs me. it's the thin edge of the wedge.

apple is looking to the soccer moms buying a mac for the first time, an imac, not to the current cult members.

[wallinbl]

Originally posted by -Q-:
Now, for the value of the apps, I think $49 is fair-especially with all that's included in garage band.

Many people will never use GarageBand. Why shouldn't we be able to just buy iPhoto? I'm going to have to pay $49 for an update to iPhoto. Sure, I'll get the other apps as well, but I don't really care about them.

[Freeflyer]

My only complaint is that I have to buy the bundle. I'm not a musician, so don't want garage band, I don't have a camcorder so don't need imovie and idvd. I only want iphoto, but have to pay for them all.

Why not make them individually downloadable, and pay a slightly higher price for each, howabout $15 per app. I think that would make everyone a lot happier.

Up to now, the idea of ilife has been the digital hub for a family environment, and has offered that in a pretty consistent way. many people have cd's, digital cameras and camcorders. However, now they've added garage band, which is, in my view, not something that most people will use. Sure it will appeal for the muso's, but it's not like every family wants to record music.

my 2c.

J.

[krove]

Originally posted by darrick:
krove: Umm....where's the ambiguity? Steve Jobs explicitly states that the updated iLife apps + GarageBand would all be available for $49. Period. End of sentence.

in a nutshell, the ambiguity: there has been a course of dealing between Apple Computer and its users that included free downloads of iLife apps which were also available for purchase as part of the iLife package; in the keynote, steve referred to the iLife apps being available for purchase -- he did not say that they would be UNavailable for free download; he did not refer to them being available as part of a paid download; he made no clear statement regarding the free downloads continuing or stopping.

You false assumptions that Apple somehow owes its users free downloads of iPhoto and iMovie is the true source of ambiguity. In re-watching the end of the keynote, it seems precisely clear that these will ONLY be available by purchase, not download.

Your "lack of statement does not preclude lack of proof" theory is somewhat bogus with regards to marketing. Because Apple forgot to tell us that these will not be available for download does not in any shape or form require them to provide the software via this means. Clearly if Apple were going to provide these via download, they would have said it up front. From a marketing and business standpoint: duh! - would it be any other way?

[dlefebvre]

To me 49$ is a deal just for Garage Band. There is nothing else available in that price range. They can't continue to innovate if they give away everything they do. They're in the business to make money, not to make our life easier.

[psu03bob]

I have not decided if i will buying iLife. The only app I use frequently enough is, excluding iTunes, is iPhoto. There is enough doubt that I will wait to see if a free download is offered.

iDVD may be the deciding factor. I did not upgrade last year. iDVD is not included with OS upgrades so if I want the upgraded version I have to upgrade.

Having to pay for these apps has made me reconsider paying for .mac again. If annual iLife upgrades were included with .Mac it would make a huge difference for me (only if iDVD was included otherwise i would wait for OS upgrades). Virex was the reason I moved from iTools to .Mac. The cost of Virex does not make up for .Mac as i would not pay for that POS but only use it because it is "free".


.Mac has become kind of like those coupon books high school marching books sell. It sounds really good and and like it will save me a lot of money, but after paying the credit card bill for .Mac I promptly forgot I had it.

[asxless]

Originally posted by BZ:
Panther ($129) included all the apps...

Hmmm... The Apple web pages say that Panther includes all of the then current iLife apps, except one... iDVD which just happens to have been the ONLY iLife app that was not also available for free download at the time Panther was released.

If you want to wait for 10.4 it will include all of this.

Maybe I missed the part of Steve's keynote (and/or Apple's web pages) that says you can upgrade to the latest version of the iLife apps by purchasing iLife for $49 _or_ by upgrading to the next release of OSX.

-- asxless in iLand

[Eug]

I just ordered it. It's supposed to arrive by the 16th.

CAD$39 educational price (down from CAD$59).

[new newton]

Originally posted by asxless:
Maybe I missed the part of Steve's keynote (and/or Apple's web pages) that says you can upgrade to the latest version of the iLife apps by purchasing iLife for $49 _or_ by upgrading to the next release of OSX.

There wasn't any mention of the next OS X release. He said iLife would be included on all new Macs. iLife wasn't included in 10.3, so I'd be quite surprised if it were included in 10.4.

[BZ]

Here is my take...

One of of Apple's strengths is the iApps. They know that not only do people buy new macs (and switch) to get the iApps, but people upgrade to the newer version of the OS because it comes bundled with some of them.

So.. what does Apple want the consumer to do?

1) Buy new computers.
2) Upgrade to the new OS
3) Buy new software

They take the iLife, make it non-free (where only some of it was free anyway). Ok, so now all those apps have a value. Now you bundle that value with every new mac. When people are buying (or thinking of buying) a new Mac they see the value of the bundled iLife.

When people are considering upgrading to the new OS (10.3/4/5/6), they look at all of the bundled software. Some of the iApps are there. They see value in the upgrade and pay for it.

For those of you who bought a new Mac with 10.2 on it, don't want a new mac, don't want to buy panther you can now upgrade 5 of your iApps for $49.

Apple is making a Dell/Microsoft bundle. You can't get Office 2004 for free. You can't download it. You must pay for it. Dell will bundle all of this "free" software into your purchase of a new Dell.

Just take a look at all of the new software upgrades you can get with the purchase of a new Dell desktop.
- XP (with a pro upgrade for $70)
- $30 - $50 for DVD burning software
- $20 for MS Media Edition Plus
- $20 for Music Match PLUS
- $30 for Dell picture Premium

Most of these have starting "free" versions and have higher versions as well for more money. It looks like you can add another $250 to the purchase of your Dell for software the comes with every mac.

What Dell, MS and now Apple get, is that if you give something away for free, it has no value. If you charge a price for it on the market it now has value that increases the value of the products you bundle it with.

Apple wants you to upgrade your computer. Apple wants you to see the value in upgrading your computer so they will bundle new applications and OS with the new computer so you can see the value in the upgrade.

While I believe (and write) in Open source software there are times when good software will only come from companies and companies need money. Software is like any other market price, if you don't like the cost of X, don't buy it or wait till it is at the point you will.

If you don't want all the value in OmniWeb 5, use Mozilla.

If you don't want to pay for iLife '04, find free alternatives, wait till the price comes down or wait for it to be bundled with something else that you are willing to pay for.

Same thing for Office 2004, VPC 7, Panther, Watson, Weatherpop, Photoshop etc, etc, etc...

Just some other software prices...

$59 - BBedit 6.0 - 7.0 upgrade (1 computer)
$218 - Office V.X Upgrade (1)
$250 - Photoshop CS upgrade (1)
$199 - Dreamweaver 2004 upgrade (1)
$49 - Halo (1)
$49 - UT2003 (1)
$49 - iLife (1)
$79 - iLife Family Edition (5 macs in house)

BZ

[Eriamjh]

From ZDnet:

The iLife package, including GarageBand, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto and iMovie, will cost $49 or will be free with new Macs, Jobs said. The company will no longer provide free downloads of iPhoto or iMovie, a strategy it seriously considered last year and that could anger some customers.

So those of us who bought panther got all but iDVD free. Those who want them now, can't even download the old versions from Apple anymore.

I think Apple could charge $50 for each of these programs. Getting them all for $50 is a bargain.

I bought iDVD3 and it is for sale on ebay right now. That money will go to buy the new versions. I'm really interested in an iPhoto that doesn't slow down. I only have about 2,500 pics and it is dog-a$$-slow.

So buy a new Mac and get them all free. I just might do that, too.

And iTunes is still free because it is basically their music store software (and iPod selling software).

[mdc]

i agree with the main view here. $49 for all of those apps is not a lot to charge. if i was not buying a new powerbook on saturday, i would have already ordered the new iLife.

iPhoto, to me, is worth $49. the new iMoive stuff looks nice. I will most probably go for the superdrive powerbook, since the new iDVD has some nice features.

Apple needs to make money, just like every other company out there. I have always been amazed that they could give out software of such a high standard for free. If they had said the price was $150, around half of what steve calculated for windows counterparts, that would be a bit expensive. but damn, $49!

all i am wondering now is what happens when i buy my powerbook? does apple mail me iLife on the 16th?

[new newton]

Originally posted by mdc:
all i am wondering now is what happens when i buy my powerbook? does apple mail me iLife on the 16th?

Nope. You'll have to go through the iLife Up-to-date program. http://www.apple.com/ilife/uptodate/

[JLL]

Originally posted by Eriamjh:
From ZDnet:


So those of us who bought panther got all but iDVD free. Those who want them now, can't even download the old versions from Apple anymore.

They are still included with Panther - why the need for downloading them?

[Busemann]

I wonder if the new iapps will be included if I go out and buy Panther now..

[RooneyX]

It's cheap, if you need those programs, but at the rate iApps are updated is this fifty bucks every year for minor upgrades?

I think Dot Mac members should get them free.

[sanity assassin]

Nah, it's pretty cr@p what Apple are doing here, and I get worried when people start arguing in defence of what is happening now. When you buy Panther, you're buying all that comes with it, all the licenses, and all the software, which includes all the updates that come along till the next big release, and that includes all the free iApps. The cost of innovation fro those free apss, is wrapped up in OS X, it's in the value that draws customers to it. I mean, look, let's say you go out and buy Panther next month, you get home looking forward to using iPhoto, but damn, there's a newer one available, but only if you fork out another whack load of cash, so in essence, in any future purchase of Panther, and know that you are getting old software flung in.

[asxless]

Originally posted by new newton:
There wasn't any mention of the next OS X release. He said iLife would be included on all new Macs. iLife wasn't included in 10.3, so I'd be quite surprised if it were included in 10.4.

Precisely my point. Apple only needed to include their loss leader iApps with OS X until it could stand on its own merits. The 'commercial' iLife apps will only be included with the next OS X release if sales of upgrades to 10.4 are anemic.

Monopoly 101: -- Effective use of --
Step 1 - Produce Reasonably Good Entry Level Products -
* Monopolies are easiest to form or exploit in areas which are just taking off (e.g. digital lifestyle products) with little or no well established products (mp3 players, digital photo albums, digital movie editors, etc.)

Step 2 - Reduce or Eliminate Competition & Increase Market Share -
* Distribute your products widely and at dramatically low cost (free).
* During this phase you can link the products to sales of hardware (Macs) and/or software (OS X).

Step 3 - Release Nicely Improved Versions with some "added value" -
* It helps if the products are very early in the development cycle where you can produce obvious benefits with each update (iPhoto, iMovie, etc. )
* It also helps to include something new "for free" to increase interest (GarageBand).

Step 4 - Increase the Price -
* Don't be greedy - Raising the price too high (or too quickly) can alienate you customer base and produce a price umbrella for potential competitors.
* Start milking the cash flow ($49/yr/Mac or the purchase of a new Mac).

-- asxless in iLand

Edit: to clarify intent of "Monopoly 101" as how to effectively use an existing monopoly.

[new newton]

You didn't realize that Apple has a monopoly in some areas until they decided to not allow you to download iPhoto?

The only pisser in all of this to me is that I can't have the apps today. If Apple had allowed me to download the new apps yesterday I'd be a truly happy camper--whether I had to pay for them or not. Somehow I just can't get bent out of shape over $50. Waiting 10 days for something I want? That'll put my undies in a bunch.

[darrick]

i don't think apple owes users free software generally, but by offering software like iPhoto for free and then without notice, apparently, to begin charging for updates is disappointing a reasonable expectation.

maybe offering iLife with garageband for $49 is good marketing, but that doesn't mean it's right to make users who just use iPhoto to pay $49 for iPhoto4 as part of a bundle, with other unwanted apps.

i am sure that a letter to any state's secretary of state's consumer affairs office would result in an investigation. not that i'm saying this is the crime of the century, but it just isn't right.

there are worse things done by companies everyday and i am not screaming mad about this but it seems pretty low to pull free downloads, especially without any explicit announcement saying the downloads are over.