[theolein]

I read this piece on the NY Times site (login:macnn, password:macnn) today on the struggle that wounded American soldiers are going thruogh on their return from Iraq. It is not about the way the soldiers are being treated by the general population, but about the mental and physical scars that they carry. It is a very sad and disturbing piece, but well written, with the author not trying to demonise or make political points on their situation, but simply doing what a good journalist does: report. I urge you all to read this article.

About half-way through the article I found myself shaking and on the verge of tears, because it brought back some very painful memories of my life in South Africa during the war in Namibia and my time at university there, losing friends in the war itself, watching school friends exhibit very similar symptoms to the ones described in the article, like sleeplessness, aggression, nervous tension, anxiety and depression. I also had friends who were arrested by the security police, some never to be seen again, some to be released after long periods of torture with similar symptoms to the ones described above. Even the descriptions of bad physical problems, constant pain and long periods in hospital and many operations strikes a chord with me due to the almost three years of my life that I have spent in total being operated on my hips.

And yet, there are others too that suffer the same symptoms, the Iraqis who fought in the war or have been wounded fighting against the Americans. Shell-shock, as we used to call it, or Combat Stress Disorder, knows no human boundaries.

I feel sad to read things like this, because people like this will never be among the statistic remembered after the war. And while it is a small group, it is a walking time bomb of social disruption and of lives that will never be able to be as free as they were before. From what I have read, even John Kerry suffers from this, as it has been reported that prior to this election campaign, the only time he really got talkative was when he related his experiences in Vietnam, a war that this article states as being very similar to Iraq in the time being.

I don't even know if I had a point to make really, except perhaps that it is just damn sad to see people with broken lives and living in physical and/or mental agony from a war that seems to have little point in the time being. If anything the situation now reminds me of Vietnam in 1972 or 1973, where the Americans were planning on leaving the war and turning it over to the South Vietnamese who lost the war 2 years later in 1975. It already looks as if the insurgents/guerillas/al-qaida/saddam loyalists etc have started to turn their war on the Iraqi police and army in preparation for when the Americans leave. IF that happens, what will the point have been, then?

[FeLiZeCaT]

Theolein,

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts about this. I understand how terrible it must feel to relive some of those very emotions you may have wanted to leave behind. Although I did not live the life you lived, I do share some painful experiences myself that are somewhat reminiscent of war trauma.

I can only agree with your point of view and, being involved in the assistance of people victim of trauma, my concerns are very much an echo of yours.

Sharing your thoughts about this situation may be the point of your posting; people need to know and understand the price of such interventions, and if it turns out that the whole thing was done for the sole profit of a few corporate mandarins, the pain may very well become more intense.

This whole thing is just so absurd when we think of it, that I really wonder when we will wake up from that nightmare...

[lil'babykitten]

Thanks for posting that theo. It was a very interesting albeit saddening read.

[itai195]

Thanks for posting that theo. My gf's cousin was just deployed to Iraq this week, and we're worried about him...

[Spliffdaddy]

Liberating 25million people comes at a high cost.

Most countries aren't willing to pay it.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Liberating 25million people comes at a high cost.

Most countries aren't willing to pay it.

That fine sense of tact of yours coming to the fore again, hey Spliff?

[FeLiZeCaT]

Why bother...

One day he'll at the front, somehow, and will wonder how come it happened to him...

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by theolein:
It already looks as if the insurgents/guerillas/al-qaida/saddam loyalists etc have started to turn their war on the Iraqi police and army in preparation for when the Americans leave. IF that happens, what will the point have been, then?

You know, it's interesting that you end with this, because I was just reading about this coordinated attack on an Iraqi prison where dozens of prisoners were freed.

This statement stood out at me:

Before the attack, the gunmen set up checkpoints and blocked the road leading to the police station, but residents did not notify police, Deputy Interior Minister Ahmed Kadhum Ibrahim said in Baghdad. Nearby storeowners were warned not to open Saturday morning, one shopkeeper in Fallujah said.

Police said two of the slain gunmen had Lebanese identification papers.

"I suspect (the attackers) were Arabs or Syrians or belonged to al-Qaida. They want to create instability and chaos," Sabri said.

I feel that it is absolutely imperative that Iraq is not left in a state of free-for-all. Ultimately, this is the final part of the equation in terms of my support for the overthrow of Saddam - that Iraqis be able to run their own land in a civilized way.

The quote I posted above, however, has upset me. An overwhelming majority of Iraqis supported the overthrow of Saddam. But they need to realize that, if they want a civilized society, they need to be willing to do whatever it takes to ensure civility.

I want to shout to them, "Call the friggin'cops when you see something sketchy, like a renegade group of foreigners blocking off roads and telling you to keep your stores closed".

I really want to know what mass communications efforts are being implemented in Iraq. I almost never see anything mentioned regarding this in the reports from Iraq. I mean, are we (Coalition and/or Council) in constant contact with the population, assuring them that this can work if they help? Or are the majority of Iraqis so used to appeasement due to 25 years of Saddam brutality that they instinctively shudder the moment they are threatened?

Regardless, I think constant communication with the population as to how important it is for them and future generations that they be willing to ensure, at all costs, that civility prevails.

Hate or love Bush, this is about the Iraqi people. People shouldn't hope for complete unrest and turmoil because they want Bush to go down. We should hope for success because we want 25 million Iraqis to live as freely and peacefully as we do.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quote from spacefreak:

...this is about the Iraqi people...

_______________________

Exactly, so mind your own business.

The police you talk about, is the police you know from YOUR experience. Stop imposing your values and belief system that you hold so dearly to your heart as perfect.

IT IS NOT.


Freedom is NOT given, it is TAKEN. Let the Iraqis do their job. Let them assume their freedom. It is NONE of our business.

Don't you understand that your imposition of what is "right" (which is limited to your own individual experience) is nothing different than the self-glorification that most dictators are using to "help" their people?

If you REALLY care for the Iraqis, let them be free.

Saddam is gone. FINE. Wish it had been done a LONG time ago but heck...

Now, all that is needed is for Iraq to heal its wounds. It can be defended from outsiders, but its internal business has to be left to themselves, at their pace, and according to their own wishes.

Democracy, ok, but not America's democracy. Iraq's democracy. You can help them, but you have NO RIGHT to impose your own values as their ideal.

Look at all the good "civilization" has done to Africa. That continent is such a mess!
Or better: look at what has happened to the First Nations of the 3 Americas.

Benevolent care can sometimes be murder... in the form of genocide. The only lesson anybody needs froom the "civilized" world is what the "uncivilized" will ask.

Until then, we have NO SAY.

Guests have to understand at some point when to leave...

At this very moment, nobody else but the UN should be present, and only at the request of that country, which should be done as priority #1.

But noooooooo! Not yet! we have to rebuild this country because we promised juicy contracts to our "civilized corporate friends"....

This is pathetic and disgusting...

[macvillage.net]

Thanks for the read.

This pretty much goes in line with my comments on that "Canada censors it's media"[not really] thread. Most Americans have never seen a video clip of actual warfare. All we see here in the US, are press release video, and other garbage the pentagon has cleared. Soldier's smiling, looking strong.

War isn't exactly as clean and pretty as the pentagon makes it up to be. What these guys see and experience is quite different.


That's why I've always been of the belief the US shouldn't censor the media so much during warfare. The US public should see what's really going on, like every other country does. Then decide if this is the best course for our nation.

There's a reason why Americans are for war more than any other country. It's because only a handful have actually seen real war video. Or have been in a war.

The rest of the world sees actual video, for good or bad. Makes you think twice before you send your neighbor or friend into that.


It's not an episode of GI-Joe, dispite what the media makes it look like.

These people suffer. IMHO if we are willing to put people into this situation, we should be willing to have it on TV as a reminder of what they experience.

It's pretty sad that the majority of those who back the war, never even saw a clip of real war video, much less have been in the military during a time of war.

Bush's National Guard experience doesn't count either.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
There's a reason why Americans are for war more than any other country. It's because only a handful have actually seen real war video. Or have been in a war.

We even have a video game produced by the Army to glamorize service even more.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quote from AKcrab:

We even have a video game produced by the Army to glamorize service even more.
_________________________

Really sorry for you guys...

And there is that other war for you (and us ultimately):

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/consumerc...62/detail.html

The corporate powers will use whatever is usable to create markets (use of kids) and any means to secure its asset (the army).

The count of victims has only started...

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
We even have a video game produced by the Army to glamorize service even more.

Killing terrorists is glamourous. I'd shake the guy's hand who'd put a bullet through Osama's skull.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quoted from Dudaev's corpse:

Killing terrorists is glamourous. I'd shake the guy's hand who'd put a bullet through Osama's skull.

_______________________

Which was probably what motivated Ben Laden in the first place.

Revenge.

When are we going to stop this vicious circle again?

Ah! Yeah! Iraq...

[swrate]

Originally posted by theolein:

I feel sad to read things like this, because people like this will never be among the statistic remembered after the war. And while it is a small group, it is a walking time bomb of social disruption and of lives that will never be able to be as free as they were before. From what I have read, even John Kerry suffers from this, as it has been reported that prior to this election campaign, the only time he really got talkative was when he related his experiences in Vietnam, a war that this article states as being very similar to Iraq in the time being.

I don't even know if I had a point to make really, except perhaps that it is just damn sad to see people with broken lives and living in physical and/or mental agony from a war that seems to have little point in the time being. If anything the situation now reminds me of Vietnam in 1972 or 1973, where the Americans were planning on leaving the war and turning it over to the South Vietnamese who lost the war 2 years later in 1975. It already looks as if the insurgents/guerillas/al-qaida/saddam loyalists etc have started to turn their war on the Iraqi police and army in preparation for when the Americans leave. IF that happens, what will the point have been, then?

Yes, subject to meditation
I met a few veterans of wars and have friends who engaged in the red crescent,
In Iraq. No news.

These veterans Vietnam, Gulf war suffer obsessional disorders, TOC, schizophrenia, what should one expect after going through horror and not understanding why. Ask the pilots who were freed after being POW's in 91 or 2? spring 92. I think Some of those boys must be completely disconnected.
I am a coward and I am thankful none of my family got involved in the US forces.
Plenty of other shares of reality.

We don�t mention enough the youngsters, mothers, children who go through this violence and horror, they are the ones the most traumatized, and then we wonder
Oh surprise, �maggot� why do we have terrorists�� we/you and me are nurturing them.
All the wounded in this story �war on terror� how many innocent victims blind, without arm, leg, in wheelchairs, or in pain the rest of their lives?
Victims
Victims
Victims
Victims
The villages in the area where Tiger Mission? was decreted free fire zone
yes, what do the survivors (and neighbours) think of that terrible tragedy and of the US?
you resist occupation, you terrorist.
It's resistance.

In Iraq,
it is tragic
I wonder if the country will ever be under control the way the bushads expected it to be. or if eventually it will split in 3 or 4 parts. I am not the only one to worry. Koffi Annan said elections would not be possible for june.

theolein, you say:
"
because people like this will never be among the statistic remembered after the war. And while it is a small group, it is a walking time bomb of social disruption and of lives that will never be able to be as free as they were before. "

I think that /\ is the point:
How many Iraqis have lost a loved one? How many have suffered?
thousands badly wounded. NOw, dont tell me they are used to it anyway (insect buzzing)
the difference is: this time the intruders are from another continent, another culture, another religion.
And many of the Iraqis who have suffered will spray hate of the US around them, because of what they went through.
So, US: - wounded = - retaliation x10
Iraq: + wounded = + terrorism x100


The worse is, Al Quaeida who never had HQ in Iraq now has them. Congratulations, "they all in a corner" will buzz .
NO, no: the number of opposents grows, resistance develops in many ways.


Believe me, ---- and I hate to write this----- depending on the passport you have, moving on the planet and in any specific area is different, the way one is boarded on emigration offices changes, first class, second class, third class fourth class citizens..= value of life under some conditions means nothing. Palestinian passport?=worth nothing

rambling in
traumas....


.I dont know whether they should go or stay.
it seems tragic both ways.

[Spliffdaddy]

If you think freedom isn't worth dying for - then what is?

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
Exactly, so mind your own business.

The police you talk about, is the police you know from YOUR experience. Stop imposing your values and belief system that you hold so dearly to your heart as perfect.

I'm not imposing my values, or trying to dictate what is "right" to Iraqis. I was simply stating that if the Iraqi people want peace, they need to be able to maintain it and ensure it themselves.

Their government is certainly not going to be an American democracy, so I don't know where you absorbed that misnomer. But it will have democratic elements. And it should. Polling of Iraqis show that large majorities support what are generally democratic values:

Strong Consensus on Value of Free Elections and Fair Representation
In all seven cities in the Office of Research poll, large majorities support what are generally considered to be democratic values. Nine in ten think it is very or somewhat important that people vote in free and fair elections (95%), that people abide by the law and criminals are punished (94%), that people can criticize the government (86%), and that major nationality (89%) and religious groups share power (87%). Majorities also value media that are independent of government censorship (78%) and rights for women that are equal to those of men (71%) [...]There is very little, if any, variation among the cities on these components, and there are only minor differences between men and women in their attitudes toward gender equity.

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If you think freedom isn't worth dying for - then what is?

I thought they were dying to stop Saddam's imminent use of WMD. Oh wait, that was last year ... I forgot that its all about "freedom for Iraqis" now.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
If you think freedom isn't worth dying for - then what is?

And once again, you, I'm sorry to say, along with deadboy, just don't get it. It's written in black and white and you just don't see it. It's not about the dead, but about the wounded survivors. Wounded both physically and mentally.

And yet this seems to to just fly over your head without you even knowing it went there. Perhaps attitudes like yours are more part of the problem than part of the solution.

[Spliffdaddy]

..and *your* freedom was paid for by whom?


There is a history of sacrifice behind everything worth living for.

As far as freedom goes, your obligation is to leave it like you found it.

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by theolein:
And once again, you, I'm sorry to say, along with deadboy, just don't get it. It's written in black and white and you just don't see it. It's not about the dead, but about the wounded survivors. Wounded both physically and mentally.

And yet this seems to to just fly over your head without you even knowing it went there. Perhaps attitudes like yours are more part of the problem than part of the solution.

Perhaps attitudes like yours are what allowed Fascism and terrorism to spread like a cancer, unchallenged and unabated throughout the world.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
..and *your* freedom was paid for by whom?


There is a history of sacrifice behind everything worth living for.

As far as freedom goes, your obligation is to leave it like you found it.

For the life of me, Spliff, I can't imagine you sacrificing yourself for anything. I just don't believe that you have it in you. Your big talk of freedom and sacrifice seems, to me at least, to be just that: talk.

It's none of my business really, and it surely doesn't make much of a difference in this world, but what sort of strikes me is that you portray the attitude of pretending to be the hard man, uncaring for loss and suffering in others. It strikes me as the same attitude as deadboy has: Lots of gleeful words about killing but uncaring even about his own kind if they don't fit in with his narrow idea of a perfect world.

It's sad really.

[FeLiZeCaT]

quoted from spacefreak:

I'm not imposing my values, or trying to dictate what is "right" to Iraqis. I was simply stating that if the Iraqi people want peace, they need to be able to maintain it and ensure it themselves.

______________________________________________

That is a given spacefreak. And I certainly agree with the second sentence of ths quote.

I guess I took my anger on you because it is still so messy over there and I was reading something different.. I have no confidence in the people at the head of that occupation, so may be I am prejuduced, and generalized this to you, I admit that.

But even that poll you quoted I am not sure how true it is. It is easy to ask question and get the answers we want when we occupy a place that was under a dictatorship for so many decades, long before Saddam Hussein was in power...

But certainly the Iraqis are happy to be freed from that dictator, and it may be reflected in the poll itself.

So I apologize for my flames. Another good lesson of humility for me.

I am just so afraid that the whole thing will spin out of control...

See, the country was going relatively well before the attack, and I am talking of its infrastructure. From what I read, it got worse afte the "liberation".

Now that they are "free" from Saddam Hussein, who is going to pay for that liberation? And under what conditions? The U.S. of are not doing this for free... So at some point, we may see something similar to what is actually going on in Afghanistan; another dictatorship, but with more controlable drone. And that will last until when?

Then the World Bank will start to increase its pressure and we will see that country under another form of economic oppression for generations. Then they will all be turned into customers and be unemployed or work at very low wages (like now, already it has started)...

I can't help but be sarcastic over the whole thing.

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by theolein:
For the life of me, Spliff, I can't imagine you sacrificing yourself for anything. I just don't believe that you have it in you. Your big talk of freedom and sacrifice seems, to me at least, to be just that: talk.

It's none of my business really, and it surely doesn't make much of a difference in this world, but what sort of strikes me is that you portray the attitude of pretending to be the hard man, uncaring for loss and suffering in others. It strikes me as the same attitude as deadboy has: Lots of gleeful words about killing but uncaring even about his own kind if they don't fit in with his narrow idea of a perfect world.

It's sad really.

Spare us your forced, fake-tears lectures. They don't become you.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by theolein:
For the life of me, Spliff, I can't imagine you sacrificing yourself for anything. I just don't believe that you have it in you. Your big talk of freedom and sacrifice seems, to me at least, to be just that: talk.

It's none of my business really, and it surely doesn't make much of a difference in this world, but what sort of strikes me is that you portray the attitude of pretending to be the hard man, uncaring for loss and suffering in others. It strikes me as the same attitude as deadboy has: Lots of gleeful words about killing but uncaring even about his own kind if they don't fit in with his narrow idea of a perfect world.

It's sad really.

Uncaring? I think you misunderstand me.

There's nothing I care more about than people.

You point to casualties in the fight for freedom and call them 'victims' - while you overlook the freedom they bought for you.

"oh, and this poor soldier lost his arm to a landmine...pity him."

Absolute rubbish, theo.

Right or wrong, with good intelligence or bad, they fight to preserve the only halfway decent reason for human beings to live. With so many people taking their own freedom for granted, it becomes a clear indication that the soldiers must be doing a good job.

They aren't doing that job for the benefit of those who take their freedom for granted - they're doing that job in spite of them.

Save your pity for those that would never be a so-called 'victim' - the ones that haven't yet realized what's important in life.

Look around you. See all those people? They aren't there to fight for your freedom. That's your job. The fact that some of them do, regardless, should warrant our utmost respect.

Pity isn't a reflection of respect. It's a (rather condescending) acknowledgement that you're viewing a situation from a position of superiority in judgement.

on an unrelated note: These are some damn good hydro buds.

[swrate]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Uncaring? I think you misunderstand me.

There's nothing I care more about than people.

You point to casualties in the fight for freedom and call them 'victims' - while you overlook the freedom they bought for you.

"oh, and this poor soldier lost his arm to a landmine...pity him."

.................

They aren't doing that job for the benefit of those who take their freedom for granted - they're doing that job in spite of them.

Save your pity for those that would never be a so-called 'victim' - the ones that haven't yet realized what's important in life.

Look around you. See all those people? They aren't there to fight for your freedom. That's your job. The fact that some of them do, regardless, should warrant our utmost respect.

Pity isn't a reflection of respect.

its got nothing to do with pity, it has to do with compassion


Victims, are soldiers, freedom fighters, and civilians, the populations deeply affected by the sanctions, the regime, the war.

Soldiers, moujahiddeens, medical staff killed, ok �ok- ok-
they are freedom fighters, and deserve our respect, and silence, but what about the thousands of children suffering consequences of our leaders tragic decisions, which btw they cannot feel responsible for?

For this �poor soldier who lost his arm�, how many "this poor child lost,, his mom, his dad, his eyes, leg, ....
Was it the child�s choice to be �freedom fighter�?
and in many cases was it the young soldier's choice to fight?
How many are affected?
How many are desperate, and doubt about their motivations to fight? On the ground, it doesn�t look like freedom. Disasters and tensions.

Freedom in spite of oneself?
You cannot set free birds, lizards, children, any living beings when they don�t ask for freedom.

To be free, one has to want to be free.

Anyhow,
Is it freedom to change from a metal cage to a plastic cage?

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
on an unrelated note: These are some damn good hydro buds.

[gadster]

Theolin, thank you, man - seriously. Props to you, brother. That was a brave post.

South Africa is a good example of a country where the right were dead wrong. You have hit the nail right on the head.

War is an ugly endeavour. He who starts a war has a huge burden of responsibility to justify the attack. Defensive war is a much easier thing to justify. The new US policy of pre-emption is doomed to failure, politically - in the long term. These guys seem to think that war is a game. It's not a game to the people on the ground.

I wish one of the Ten Commandments had said "Thou shalt not kill", it would have made for a much better world.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Uncaring? I think you misunderstand me.

There's nothing I care more about than people.

You point to casualties in the fight for freedom and call them 'victims' - while you overlook the freedom they bought for you.

"oh, and this poor soldier lost his arm to a landmine...pity him."

Absolute rubbish, theo.

Right or wrong, with good intelligence or bad, they fight to preserve the only halfway decent reason for human beings to live. With so many people taking their own freedom for granted, it becomes a clear indication that the soldiers must be doing a good job.

They aren't doing that job for the benefit of those who take their freedom for granted - they're doing that job in spite of them.

Save your pity for those that would never be a so-called 'victim' - the ones that haven't yet realized what's important in life.

Look around you. See all those people? They aren't there to fight for your freedom. That's your job. The fact that some of them do, regardless, should warrant our utmost respect.

Pity isn't a reflection of respect. It's a (rather condescending) acknowledgement that you're viewing a situation from a position of superiority in judgement.

on an unrelated note: These are some damn good hydro buds.

You keep on talking about the soldiers who fought for my freedom. I'm neither Iraqi, nor am I European, so I have a hard time understanding why you keep talking about fighting for my freedom. Your country's soldiers definitely weren't fighting for my freedom. My country's soldiers were also definitely not fighting for freedom. They were fighting for the opposite. And they lost in the end anyway. Not because they were poor soldiers, they were one of the best armies in the world who fought the Russians, East Germans, Cubans, Angolans and Nambian guerillas to a standstill. They lost because they simply did not have the support of the vast majority of their own country. South Africa itself finally changed to a democratic system because the sanctions had crippled it financially. The 80's were really bad years in South Africa.

The invasion of Iraq was, unless you really have been stuck in a cave for a long time now and have not read the news recently about the WMD debacle, made on the basis of supposed WMD. I beg of you to compare the statements made by your politicians on the dangers of Iraqi WMD and the oppression of the Iraqi people. See which one was given more importance. Freedom had very little to do with it. I personally agreed with the invasion of Iraq on the grounds that the Iraqis should be liberated from Saddam, but am appalled by the mess that has happened since. And I don't blame it only on the Americans, but also on those Iraqis who don't particularly care about their own people. There I am in agreement with Spacefreak's post.

All that, however, is besides the point. My original post was simply about the human cost of war. I find your comments on pity understandable, but only because I've seen very similar attitutdes before. Your view that pity is something that comes from an attitude of superiority i.e. looking down on those that have suffered shows me a number of things, some of which are not explicitly clear, but which can be seen by implication:

The first possibility is that you fear pity and compassion. You claim not to, but I sense someone who is frightened of the supposed weakness that pity embodies.

The second possibility is that you, and deadboy, since he often rattles on about my supposed European superiority, feel inferior for some or other reason. You and deadboy complain about the supposed condesceding attitude of my posts towards you, and yet you overlook the fact that I really tried to make communicate with and understand both of you on a human level, to no avail. Both of you seemed to find it so much easier to carry on playing the fool and clowning around with contentless comebacks and repetitive tirades of hate, respectively. Since neither of you really bothered to take me seriously, I feel no need to gate my ability to use my intellect in response to your comments and show them up for the emptyness that they are.

But whatever. There's an old joke about a toker and a non-toker that has the non-toker stating, "Weed makes you disinterested" and the toker saying, "I don't care".

[Spliffdaddy]

I didn't have a country in mind when I wrote that. It should work for all countries. I assume by your posting here that you're free.

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I didn't have a country in mind when I wrote that. It should work for all countries. I assume by your posting here that you're free.

His country is a failure, and maybe he's pissed about it. He's certainly not back there fighting to make it better--just abandoned it to live it up with European Whites in Western Europe.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I didn't have a country in mind when I wrote that. It should work for all countries. I assume by your posting here that you're free.

If you really believe that, then you are either very idealistic or naive, or both.

While some wars have been fought for freedom from oppression, the vast majority of wars in history and present times have been fought for control of resources and power.

There's an old saying that goes: Fighting for peace is like fu�king for virginity.

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by theolein:
There's an old saying that goes: Fighting for peace is like fu�king for virginity.

There are plenty of old sayings, but their age doesn't make them any good.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by theolein:
If you really believe that, then you are either very idealistic or naive, or both.

While some wars have been fought for freedom from oppression, the vast majority of wars in history and present times have been fought for control of resources and power.

There's an old saying that goes: Fighting for peace is like fu©king for virginity.

Wonder what not fighting for peace is akin to? being French? sorry, I couldn't resist.

Tell me, theo, what do you think is worth fighting for?

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Wonder what not fighting for peace is akin to? being French? sorry, I couldn't resist.

Tell me, theo, what do you think is worth fighting for?

In a military context you mean? Survival.

[Spliffdaddy]

I'd rather be dead than to simply be surviving. Life isn't worth a nickel unless you can live it freely.

You place a high value on life - ahead of the fact that we're human.

You believe people are happy as long as they have respiration and cardiac activity. I see a dead person that breathes and has a pulse.

People require freedom in order to experience life. Obviously, it's no guarantee that some folks will do anything more than respirate as they count their days waiting on death - and hiding from it.

You don't get any extra points for living a long time, but you win the game if you live for only a day.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by AKcrab:
We even have a video game produced by the Army to glamorize service even more.

It's actually a great game.

Of course it makes war fun. Which it isn't.

But that doesn't change the fact that it's one heck of a game.

And as it expands and lets people play more rolls. Perhaps it will entice people to think of the military as more than foot soldiers carrying guns. There are many jobs in the military that aren't very stereotypical war types.

For every soldier, there are others doing intelegence, R&D, prepwork, and dealing with the aftermath. A lot of great jobs that nobody really thinks about. If you don't feel tied down, and want to travel the world, while persuing one of these traits, there's a great job for you.

[FeLiZeCaT]

And if you want to get killed for the benefits of a few it's great!

http://www.packetonline.com/site/new...d=425744&rfi=6

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
And if you want to get killed for the benefits of a few it's great!

I see you'll never be a 'victim'.

and you'll probably never live, either.

Too busy preserving your life to do anything risky with it.

edit:

reckon you and Jane Fonda will be the last 2 mofos on the planet.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quoted from SpliffDaddy:

Too busy preserving your life to do anything risky with it.

_________________________

Well ain't that what you doing man?

You chair-warming-in-his-living-room war monger?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
Quoted from SpliffDaddy:

Too busy preserving your life to do anything risky with it.

_________________________

Well ain't that what you doing man?

You chair-warming-in-his-living-room war monger?

I see you haven't taken the time to read my life story.

Besides, I'm doing something worthwhile here at MacNN. I'm trying to teach some young grasshoppers like yourself a thing or two about being happy. I've never seen so many sad miserable people outside of a funeral.


damn. do you people have to be shown first-hand that your life on this planet doesn't last forever? I suppose so, since that's pretty much how I finally learned. Help me with the words. Tell me how to tell you to stop letting life get in the way of living. I'm not saying you should embrace death. That would make you insane. I'm saying that there's a point to life, there really is. Don't let the fear of death stop you from living.

Hide if you want. Although it doesn't help. Death almost found me in the back of a U-Haul trailer.

[FeLiZeCaT]

And that life story is on sale where?

I need to read that.


Now.

Got a link?

[gadster]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I see you haven't taken the time to read my life story.

Besides, I'm doing something worthwhile here at MacNN. I'm trying to teach some young grasshoppers like yourself a thing or two about being happy. I've never seen so many sad miserable people outside of a funeral.


damn. do you people have to be shown first-hand that your life on this planet doesn't last forever? I suppose so, since that's pretty much how I finally learned. Help me with the words. Tell me how to tell you to stop letting life get in the way of living. I'm not saying you should embrace death. That would make you insane. I'm saying that there's a point to life, there really is. Don't let the fear of death stop you from living.

Hide if you want. Although it doesn't help. Death almost found me in the back of a U-Haul trailer.

Spliff, only in death is there true freedom.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
And that life story is on sale where?

I need to read that.


Now.

Got a link?

yeah, I 'got a link'.

but you seem desperate to part with some loot.

send me $2 and I'll post the rest of the U-Haul story.

Some of my original 'blog-style' drunken blabberings (in the same theme as the one that follows) are still around if you look hard enough.

The real uncensored story of my life will be available in paperback someday. I'm guessing you'll be in line to buy it.

__________________________________________________ __________________

Through depreciation of farming assets (tractor, two pickup trucks, a 40x50 barn, his shoes and socks, etc), and the miracles of farm-related tax laws, my father was able to make money without growing any crops or tending any livestck. Ever heard the term 'gentleman farmer' ? That's what it means...someone who reads 1200 page tax manuals.

My father had decided to keep the indestructible Kubota tractor - I reckon because he wanted to depreciate it some more, or something. Since the moving company refused to carry farm machinery of any sort (probably due to tax laws, lol), it was up to us to move the tractor some other way. I believe it was me that first uttered the word, U-Haul.

The local U-Haul dealer was running low on the open 'car hauler' trailers. All they had left was a huge twin axle enclosed trailer. Although I was skeptical at first, I finally convinced myself that the tractor would fit inside that big aluminum U-Haul box. The door opening was 6 feet wide and about 6 feet high. The tractor shared exactly the same deminsions. "It was custom made for hauling Kubotas!" I shouted as I towed that sucker home behind the still-depreciating pickup truck.
Sure enough, a quick double-check using a measuring tape proved that it would fit...just barely. The tractor had a few attachments that also couldn't be carried by the moving company. The mower deck was too heavy for mere mortals to pick up, so at the last minute we hooked it up to the tractor so it could ride along in the U-Haul.
It was pretty early in the morning, that fateful Spring day, when we gathered around to load the Kubota. Me and my father backed the U-Haul onto the gravel driveway, just a few steps from the street. The driveway was very long and descended into a valley where a small creek flowed. Spanning the creek was a covered bridge shared by the owners of the surrounding property, ours included. That very same bridge had made legal history in the state just 2 years before. But that story is for tomorrow night...
After you crossed the bridge (when you come to it?) the gravel driveway went uphill, eventually arriving at the rather ordinary house with a well manicured 5 acre front yard. It seemed logical to load the tractor close to the road to avoid having to pull it all the way up the steep driveway.



Harry Binder had retired from the military and also retired from Sears. About 70 years old, he was our neighbor. Harry always had a beer in his hand. It didn't matter if it was 7am or 7pm, Harry had a beer in his hand and he had a spare beer in his back pocket. I **** you not. He was forever offering his spare beer to anyone that crossed his path at any given time. When my 16 year old ass wanted a (butt warm) beer, I crossed Harry's path. Harry was a 'real' farmer. He raised steers (small cows) for slaughter. My dog was always chasing his steers, and he blamed me for their low weight at auction time. "Your dog is running all the weight off my steers, you sonofabitch....um, feel like a beer?"
I never told him what happened to his geese.
Yeah, Harry was a 'real' farmer. Seemed like less work than reading 1200 page tax manuals, though. My dad offered him some advice but Harry couldn't grasp the concept of raising nothing on his farm. What a dumbass.
Harry was there that Spring morning. Him and his beer. and his spare beer. Between the three of us we had a collective total of 125+ years of experience with manly-type stuff such as loading tractors and whatnot. Yep, the conditions were just perfect for a tragedy.

My father knew jackshit about mechanical things so I was always the tractor driver, especially on fateful Spring mornings.

As Harry and my father looked on, I eased the Kubota up the makeshift wooden ramp and into the U-haul. As the tractor entered the doorway it became apparent that there was nowhere for my head to fit. Quickly, I ducked down, holding onto the throttle lever and steering wheel. The ol' Kubota crept into the 6x6 opening just perfectly. The rear tires were just barely inside the trailer when I noticed something wrong.


2 bucks, beyatch.

for $8.50 I'll post the story about Dwight, a fellow inmate that made me do downright crazy stuff in order to avoid his wrath. Some previews include:

So you're a real man. Unlike me who stooped so low as to get naked in a room with 50 prisoners - just to take a drink of water. Yeah, you're a real man alright. I'd give you 16 hours, tops, before your naked ass is slurping water from a nasty jailhouse showerhead. Just for kicks, don't drink anything for 16 hours. Don't be a wuss and prepare for it, either. Start right this minute. Check back in 16 hours and tell me you wouldn't be a jailhouse-showerhead-water-drinking-mofo. It's either the showerhead or the toilet. Life offers-up some lose-lose options, sometimes. Fortunately, this was America and I had my rights. I had the right to complain to the warden right across the street. Yep, the warden's desk is only 2 days (or naked 'showerhead slurps') away. A shower slurp every 16 hours keeps the heart palpitations to a minimum and might even save a kidney or two.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Quote from Spliffdaddy:

beyatch.

___________________________________


Hmmm... Now I understand....

And how does this relate to the thread again?

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by FeLiZeCaT:
Quote from Spliffdaddy:

beyatch.

___________________________________


Hmmm... Now I understand....

And how does this relate to the thread again?

why do you insist on quoting in such a lame way? I have to read through that junk to get to your usual junk.

[theolein]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
yeah, I 'got a link'.

Death found me in the back of a prison shower, but decided it didn't want my a$$ just then.

...

Cool story. Makes a great title in any case. Maybe we can swap life stories one day in the old age home. I'll tell you about my broken leg that the doctors ignored and you you can tell me the one about your holiday in the US correctional facilities. I'll tell you about the junkie house I lived in and you can tell me about the U-Haul episode.

Do they allow beer in the old age home?

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Dudaev's Corpse:
why do you insist on quoting in such a lame way? I have to read through that junk to get to your usual junk.

why do you insist on posting in such a lame way? At least I don't have to read through a lot of junk since your junk is usually fairly short junk.

[Dudaev's Corpse]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
why do you insist on posting in such a lame way? At least I don't have to read through a lot of junk since your junk is usually fairly short junk.

an average and expected retort. I give it a 5 out of 10. Mediocrity suits you.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
for $8.50 I'll post the story about Dwight, a fellow inmate that made me do downright crazy stuff in order to avoid his wrath.

You didn't fight for your freedom?