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besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 04:05 PM

I honestly have no idea what his banning history was or anything, but if Rob can skirt a ban, surely Cubeoid can too? It is hard to comprehend him having a similar sort of history with people in here that Rob has had over many years, although Rob has been forgiven. Why not Cubeoid as well? Cubeoid seems pretty harmless to me...

If his ban was based on his not posting technical related content, what about posters like BadKosh who come here basically just to get into partisan rants in the PWL?

I say chill on the ban button for everybody, unless they have done something pretty excessive recently...

The Final Dakar · Sep 22, 2010, 04:07 PM

My early xmas present to you, mods and admins.

<3
Dakar

imitchellg5 · Sep 22, 2010, 04:10 PM

At least he wasn't being a troll like Rob...

OreoCookie · Sep 22, 2010, 04:15 PM

He was permabanned a while ago. He did not ask the staff whether he may return (unlike bstone, for instance, who requested his permaban to be lifted prior to posting again) and his behavior in recent threads has shown he hasn't changed to be allowed back in.

Hence, it's ban evasion, plain and simple.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 04:28 PM

I sort of agree with not just letting him back in w.o prior conversation, but you mods need to define more clearly how a process of requesting to get back in works. It's not really documented anywhere.

After all those years, I think he should be given another chance.
Rob was given one, others were, too.

Just give him a timeout, and then unban his new nick.

-t

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 04:29 PM

Oh, I was not aware that a member had to ask to have their permaban lifted. It seemed from my limited vantage point that Rob's re-acceptance here didn't work out that way.

What was his behavior in recent threads that was problematic?

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

I sort of agree with not just letting him back in w.o prior conversation, but you mods need to define more clearly how a process of requesting to get back in works. It's not really documented anywhere.

After all those years, I think he should be given another chance.
Rob was given one, others were, too.

Just give him a timeout, and then unban his new nick.

-t

I think they also need to inform the member what it is that they are doing "wrong". Whatever Cubeoid was doing that was wrong now especially is a complete mystery to me. I would like to know what this is so that I don't do the same myself.

I would also add that Rob was given well more than one chance, if memory serves. I'm not trying to suggest disapproval of Rob being here, but I'm adding to what Turtle is saying: if you guys are going to be ban happy based on rules and structure, these rules and structure needs to be better defined.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Oh, I was not aware that a member had to ask to have their permaban lifted. It seemed from my limited vantage point that Rob's re-acceptance here didn't work out that way.

Well, that's a bit of a problem, since Rob clearly did NOT follow those unspoken rules of begging your way back in.

That's why I have always been against permabans.

Make it temp bans, extended ones, if necessary.
Permabans are silly.

-t

OreoCookie · Sep 22, 2010, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

I sort of agree with not just letting him back in w.o prior conversation, but you mods need to define more clearly how a process of requesting to get back in works. It's not really documented anywhere.

Among the thousands of users, we have permabanned only a handful, literally.* The people we have re-admitted have asked us first and promised to be good. We have also denied such requests in the past.

* There are some Lounge and PL-specific bans in place, many of those are actually by request of the corresponding user. I took the liberty of subtracting those.

Originally Posted by besson3c

I think they also need to inform the member what it is that they are doing "wrong". Whatever Cubeoid was doing that was wrong now especially is a complete mystery to me.

Ban evasion.

Stogieman · Sep 22, 2010, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What was his behavior in recent threads that was problematic?

Good question. It's a real Busytown Mystery.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Ban evasion.

Well, so he just needs to do to 20 more times, and then he's let in, like Rob ?

Comeon, guys. It's been years, he has paid his debt. Give him a chance to show that he has changed. And don't hold against him that he doesn't know all the unwritten rules how to be allowed back in.

I'd like to remind you guys that I got one of my nicks permabanned because I had the audacity to use the nick to PM a mod, asking for clarification on a ban.
So your recommendation that a banned user should first contact the mods is by your own definition ban evasion.

Well, I know, it's silly. But I didn't make those rules.

-t

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

Among the thousands of users, we have permabanned only a handful, literally.* The people we have re-admitted have asked us first and promised to be good. We have also denied such requests in the past.

* There are some Lounge and PL-specific bans in place, many of those are actually by request of the corresponding user. I took the liberty of subtracting those.

Ban evasion.

Okay then, this is news to me. If I were banned I wouldn't know to ask you guys for anything, did Cubeoid know that he would be better served by doing this?

Also, does Cubeoid know how to "promise to be good" as far as knowing what was done prior that wasn't considered good?

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Stogieman

Good question. It's a real Busytown Mystery.

6 Busytown sigs and counting!

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Well, so he just needs to do to 20 more times, and then he's let in, like Rob ?

Comeon, guys. It's been years, he has paid his debt. Give him a chance to show that he has changed. And don't hold against him that he doesn't know all the unwritten rules how to be allowed back in.

I'd like to remind you guys that I got one of my nicks permabanned because I had the audacity to use the nick to PM a mod, asking for clarification on a ban.
So your recommendation that a banned user should first contact the mods is by your own definition ban evasion.

Well, I know, it's silly. But I didn't make those rules.

-t

A little chicken and egg thing?

reader50 · Sep 22, 2010, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by OreoCookie

* There are some Lounge and PL-specific bans in place, many of those are actually by request of the corresponding user. I took the liberty of subtracting those.

Slightly OT, but to clarify a bit. All the regular Lounge bans were old, so we wiped that slate awhile back. There are 2 scammers banned from Market today, and 58 banned from the PWL (about 5-7 by request). There are no other per-forum bans in effect.

ajprice · Sep 22, 2010, 05:33 PM

I am also befuddled by the situation.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 22, 2010, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Comeon, guys. It's been years, he has paid his debt. Give him a chance to show that he has changed.

He got it, and he hasn't.

He started he new presence here by flooding the forum with useless inanity. That's just annoying, and can't be fixed by the ignore feature because it still shows all his stupid threads, but no harm done aside from a bunch of killed braincells. (I'd still rather go on an alcohol binge than wade through that.)

I personally drew the line at his posts in the 9/11 thread. The first one could have been construed as a satiric poke at Rob's awkward post, but the follow-ups made it clear that the aim wasn't satire, it was just awkwardly stupid bullshit aimed solely at annoying people.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

He got it, and he hasn't.

I didn't examine his posts, so I can't talk to the merits.

But Oreo made it quite clear that he was banned because of ban evasion.

THAT alone IMO would not be reason enough for a immediate re-ban.

Yes, inane posts and threads is a different topic. But then you'd had to ban Besson3c as well

-t

Brien · 05:58 PM

On the one hand, I think it's odd that Rob, who has evaded bans for 6+ years, is allowed here, while Cuboid gets hit for evasion. I may be missing part of the story. On the other hand, Cuboid has always seemed to spam up the lounge and this was no different, so it doesn't really bother me.

Originally Posted by besson3c

6 Busytown sigs and counting!

7 .I have no idea what started it, but, why not?

Laminar · Sep 22, 2010, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

He got it, and he hasn't.

He started he new presence here by flooding the forum with useless inanity. That's just annoying, and can't be fixed by the ignore feature because it still shows all his stupid threads, but no harm done aside from a bunch of killed braincells. (I'd still rather go on an alcohol binge than wade through that.)

I personally drew the line at his posts in the 9/11 thread. The first one could have been construed as a satiric poke at Rob's awkward post, but the follow-ups made it clear that the aim wasn't satire, it was just awkwardly stupid bullshit aimed solely at annoying people.

This, exactly. Good riddance. One besson is already too many, we don't need two.

P · Sep 22, 2010, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Okay then, this is news to me. If I were banned I wouldn't know to ask you guys for anything, did Cubeoid know that he would be better served by doing this?

Also, does Cubeoid know how to "promise to be good" as far as knowing what was done prior that wasn't considered good?

Cubeoid already got a second chance once after being banned. He figured out how to request that, and he must have figured out how to be good by now. Quiet frankly, he posted like he knew that he was on borrowed time. I'm not against forgiving, but there must be some indication that forgiveness is sought.

Railroader · Sep 22, 2010, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

This, exactly. Good riddance. One besson is already too many, we don't need two.

ghporter · Sep 22, 2010, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Brien

On the one hand, I think it's odd that Rob, who has evaded bans for 6+ years, is allowed here, while Cuboid gets hit for evasion. I may be missing part of the story. On the other hand, Cuboid has always seemed to spam up the lounge and this was no different, so it doesn't really bother me.

7 .I have no idea what started it, but, why not?

You may not have noticed, but we fought a very long struggle with Rob for a very long time. He has somewhere between elebenty bajillion and infinity banned "ban evasion" handles. He finally gave up. Later, he asked permission if he was "good" and we allowed that. Frankly, considering how many members here (especially in the Lounge) like pushing other people's buttons, I'm surprised at how "good" Rob has behaved. And in situations where he may have gone off the deep end way back, he's been much more in control. We are certainly not coddling him.

As for Cubeoid, his last posts before his permaban included links to porn, even though he'd been warned to not post such links.

The Final Dakar · Sep 22, 2010, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

As for Cubeoid, his last posts before his permaban included links to porn

Waaaaa? Totally missed that. (Also, how retarded)

Kerrigan · Sep 22, 2010, 07:43 PM

If you want to have forum discussions with Cubeoid, just head on over to that wacky forum that he, besson, etc., operate.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

As for Cubeoid, his last posts before his permaban included links to porn, even though he'd been warned to not post such links.

Well, that settles it.

-t

The Final Dakar · Sep 22, 2010, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you want to have forum discussions with Cubeoid, just head on over to that wacky forum that he, besson, etc., operate.

If only temp bans forced users to post there.

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you want to have forum discussions with Cubeoid, just head on over to that wacky forum that he, besson, etc., operate.

He hasn't posted there in years, last I checked, about the same length of absence here...

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 08:26 PM

I had no idea he posted links to porn, just FYI...

Dork. · Sep 22, 2010, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you want to have forum discussions with Cubeoid, just head on over to that wacky forum that he, besson, etc., operate.

I think the word "operate" is too generous....

(If he did post links to porn, then he should be banned right after PMing said links to besson3c....)

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Brien

On the one hand, I think it's odd that Rob, who has evaded bans for 6+ years, is allowed here, while Cuboid gets hit for evasion. I may be missing part of the story. On the other hand, Cuboid has always seemed to spam up the lounge and this was no different, so it doesn't really bother me.

7 .I have no idea what started it, but, why not?

8, I think... Cubeoid's Busytown Mysteries thread started it when I suggested that the initial pic he posted become his sig. I think brassplayersrocks was the first person to actually make one though.

Laminar · Sep 22, 2010, 09:15 PM

Makes sense.

Doofy · Sep 22, 2010, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

This, exactly. Good riddance. One besson is already too many, we don't need two.

You know how when you get two furbies together they'll just endless talk gibberish to each other until their batteries wear out?

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by Doofy

You know how when you get two furbies together they'll just endless talk gibberish to each other until their batteries wear out?

Now, I would kill them way before the battery runs out. But that's just me.

-t

iLikebeer · 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar

If only temp bans forced users to post there.

NO! No one posts over there anymore. I locked every thread and go through and delete all of the spam every so often. There are some good recipes in the recipe forum over there.

Originally Posted by Dork.

I think the word "operate" is too generous....

(If he did post links to porn, then he should be banned right after PMing said links to besson3c....)

It wasn't just porn. It was the nastiest stuff he could find. Tubgirl, goats e, anything and everything. It was all deleted pretty fast, but he thought it was hilarious.

Brien · Sep 22, 2010, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

You may not have noticed, but we fought a very long struggle with Rob for a very long time. He has somewhere between elebenty bajillion and infinity banned "ban evasion" handles. He finally gave up. Later, he asked permission if he was "good" and we allowed that. Frankly, considering how many members here (especially in the Lounge) like pushing other people's buttons, I'm surprised at how "good" Rob has behaved. And in situations where he may have gone off the deep end way back, he's been much more in control. We are certainly not coddling him.

As for Cubeoid, his last posts before his permaban included links to porn, even though he'd been warned to not post such links.

Ah, thanks for clarifying things. Especially the bit about porn. Makes sense now.

finboy · Sep 22, 2010, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Well, I know, it's silly. But I didn't make those rules.

-t

Maybe he's on DOUBLE SECRET probation.

besson3c · Sep 22, 2010, 11:14 PM

His reason for the original ban made sense, and I suppose that it is logical that if there was a direct relationship between his actions and his original ban (as it seems like there was) that it would be logical for him to expect to have to ask to have his ban lifted, but it might be a good idea to think about and formalize the whole permabanning policy and strategy anyway so that you don't have clowns like me getting into the "well you did x for Rob/person y", based on our perceptions, and thinking that this was some sort of precedent that should remain consistent.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

It wasn't just porn. It was the nastiest stuff he could find. Tubgirl, goats e, anything and everything. It was all deleted pretty fast, but he thought it was hilarious.

Wow, just wow

What an idiot.

-t

Uncle Skeleton · Sep 22, 2010, 11:38 PM

I just have to say, the "welcome back" thread is now hilarious.

"Hi"
"Welcome"
"Welcome"
"Welcome"
"Thanks"
"Welcome"
"Welcome"
"Welcome"
*BannedLocked*

I don't usually lol but I did.

turtle777 · Sep 22, 2010, 11:39 PM

Yeah, pretty funny. Should make it a sticky

-t

Brien · Sep 22, 2010, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

8, I think... Cubeoid's Busytown Mysteries thread started it when I suggested that the initial pic he posted become his sig. I think brassplayersrocks was the first person to actually make one though.

Yeah, I ended up finding the thread after I posted that. Pretty funny stuff. We're getting pretty creative with these sigs, too.

brassplayersrock² · Sep 23, 2010, 01:59 AM

A rotating busytown mysteries sig script would be cool.

ghporter · Sep 23, 2010, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

... but it might be a good idea to think about and formalize the whole permabanning policy and strategy anyway so that you don't have clowns like me getting into the "well you did x for Rob/person y", based on our perceptions, and thinking that this was some sort of precedent that should remain consistent.

This is a good point, but since we have permabanned so very few people, we haven't really formalized any specific criteria about such things. And of course the whole idea of a "permanent ban" is that the user NEVER is allowed back, so why would we formalize some process for users to request clemency? Just as these bans are made on a case-by-case basis, so must decisions after such bans.

turtle777 · 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by ghporter

And of course the whole idea of a "permanent ban" is that the user NEVER is allowed back, so why would we formalize some process for users to request clemency? Just as these bans are made on a case-by-case basis, so must decisions after such bans.

LOL, maybe because you ('NN staff, not you personally) actually didn't stick to the PERMA for some of the bans ?

Like I said before, this all could be much more clear if there weren't any PERMAbans, but just tempbans with different lengths.

For someone who should never come back, give him a 100 year tempban

-t

The Final Dakar · Sep 23, 2010, 10:10 AM

50 consecutive 1 year permaban sentences without possibility of parole... er, clemency.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 23, 2010, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

LOL, maybe because you ('NN staff, not you personally) actually didn't stick to the PERMA for some of the bans ?

Like I said before, this all could be much more clear if there weren't any PERMAbans, but just tempbans with different lengths.

Meh, who cares?

People dealing with people.

It's obvious that these decisions aren't taken lightly, and aren't necessarily irrevocable.

That's good enough for me.

I'm WAY happier dealing with the occasional moderation inconsistency than with the Cubeoid/besson duo infernale.

Railroader · Sep 23, 2010, 11:34 AM

Execution is the final act.

turtle777 · Sep 23, 2010, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I'm WAY happier dealing with the occasional moderation inconsistency than with the Cubeoid/besson duo infernale.

I really don't diasagree with your conclusion. All I'm saying is that a bit more consistency (or let's call it premeditation / information sharing) wouldn't hurt.

-t

OreoCookie · Sep 23, 2010, 12:03 PM

Consistency? Permabanning members is a very rare event, `requests' to be admitted back in here are even rarer. I don't think it makes sense to write down rules that cover every eventuality.

When it comes to considering to lift permabans, however, I feel we have been very consistent: in all cases, we have either considered the request if the staff has been contacted prior to posting or we have waited a bit to see whether the member has changed sufficiently so that we are inclined to lift the permaban. This is exactly what has happened here as well and in that sense, our actions are consistent. Feel free to disagree with our conclusions, though.