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Evolution
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besson3c
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Oct 15, 2017, 10:41 AM
 
Is there anybody here that doesn't believe in the principles of evolution? Or that the age of the Earth is older than 6000 years?

I'm pretty sure not from past conversations here, but surely your parents or grandparents might have thought otherwise in earlier years? I would like to know at what point evolution became fully accepted in your mind, by society in general and by the religious communities, and what you think the turning point was? It seems like climate change is going through this same process now, which I would like to understand better.
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 15, 2017, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I would like to know at what point evolution became fully accepted in your mind, by society in general and by the religious communities...
Um...There are huge numbers of religious Americans who staunchly do not believe in evolution. I think you're a bit off-base to assume it's been fully accepted by religious communities. Heck, my nephew and his wife just made a long road trip to take their kids to the Creation Museum. They're both reasonably intelligent people, but are also very conservative evangelicals
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 15, 2017, 06:13 PM
 
Even people who say they don't believe in evolution believe in its key components. Namely genetic inheritance of traits and survival of the fittest. I've never seen anyone doubt the former and those who dispute the latter tend to be big fans of it when it comes to corporations and free market economics. If you buy with premises, then you believe in evolution. Whether you understand that you do (or should admit it) is the real issue. Most people simply don't understand evolution very well at all.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ghporter
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Oct 15, 2017, 06:38 PM
 
Staphylococcus aureus strains have developed resistance to most antibiotic agents. Tuberculosis has developed resistance to some anti-tubercular agents. The mechanism through which these bacteria have done this is called "evolution." Those lines that resisted more agents were able to continue reproducing, while those that remained susceptible died. This is why what is called "antibiotic discipline" is needed; demanding antibiotics from your doctor when you have a viral issue (like a cold) is stupid and helps increase antibiotic resistance in every bacterium in your body.

The age of the earth is what it is. The fact that there is a line between allegory and what can be thought of as actually descriptive history is something that actual theologians have fought to get across for centuries. That there are not enough true theologians actually preaching, and that not enough preachers actually understand the totality of their theology is a major problem for all of society.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
The Final Shortcut
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Oct 15, 2017, 07:48 PM
 
I’m curious to see whether anyone will answer honestly. But I suspect not everyone will do so, because of the fear that they will be jumped on.

I know several people who believe in the creation story and literal lineage recounting of 6-10,000 years.
     
reader50
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Oct 15, 2017, 07:52 PM
 
Human evolution has happened within historical times. The Black Death (Yersinia pestis bacteria) came to Europe repeatedly, from 1347 to mid-1600s. The waves gradually tapered off. Public health efforts eventually helped, but the plagues got less intense mostly because the susceptible people died off. All Europeans today have lots of ancestors who were resistant to the plague.

It's my opinion that the Black Death also caused a significant loss of religious authority, shifting governments to secular models. The Church had long claimed association with healing, but proved powerless to cure plague.
     
Chongo
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Oct 15, 2017, 10:23 PM
 
From the Original Catholic Encyclopedia
https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/evolution
It’s a long article. This is the general conclusions.
The most important GENERAL CONCLUSIONS to be noted are as follows:

1. The origin of life is unknown to science.

2. The origin of the main organic types and their principal subdivisions are likewise unknown to science.

3. There is no evidence in favor of an ascending evolution of organic forms.

4. There is no trace of even a merely probable argument in favor of the animal origin of man. The earliest human fossils and the most ancient traces of culture refer to a true Homo sapiens as we know him today.

5. Most of the so-called systematic species and genera were certainly not created as such, but originated by a process of either gradual or saltatory evolution. Changes which extend beyond the range of variation observed in the human species have thus far not been strictly demonstrated, either experimentally or historically.

6. There is very little known as to the causes of evolution. The greatest difficulty is to explain the origin and constancy of "new" characters and the teleology of the process. Darwin's "natural selection" is a negative factor only. The moulding influence of the environment cannot be doubted; but at present we are unable to ascertain how far that influence may extend. Lamarck's "inheritance of acquired characters" is not yet exactly proved, nor is it evident that really new forms can arise by "mutation". In our opinion the principal of "Mendelian segregation", together with Darwin's natural selection and the moulding influence of environment, will probably be some of the chief constituents of future evolutionary theories.
The “cliff notes” version
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05654a.htm

https://www.catholicculture.org/cult...archid=1767041
Evolution | What You Need to Know

According to the Church, the biological evolution of organisms from simpler to more complex forms is compatible with the Catholic understanding of Creation because God could easily have designed what He created to operate in this way. However, it is not possible that the human soul should have evolved out of matter or that humankind should be descended from more than one initial couple.

The seemingly continual conflict between evolutionary theory and faith, therefore, has not generally been a conflict of legitimate principles so much as one of exaggerated claims. Thus, for example, when fundamentalists insist that the Genesis story of creation be taken literally, they push well beyond revelation and create a false conflict. Similarly, when scientists adopt the philosophical presupposition that evolution somehow rules out God, they push well beyond science and create another false conflict.
In 1997, John Paul II indicated the Magisterium's interest in the question of evolution in a brief address.

For the past several years, Christoph Cardinal Schönborn has taken the lead in urging a proper approach to the question of human origins on the part of both theologians and scientists.

In 2004, the Pontifical International Theological Commission issued an important document which deals with the question of evolution in greater detail, along with many other important issues which touch on human personhood.

Essential Perspective

John Paul II: The Magisterium's Interest in Evolution
Cardinal Schönborn: Creation and Evolution
The International Theological Commission on Human Origins
Extra Reading

While the Catholic position on evolution has been clear and consistent from the first, as evidenced by the early twentieth century Catholic Encyclopedia entry Catholics and Evolution, it was not magisterially articulated until Pius XII issued the encyclical Humani Generis in 1954.

The ongoing discussions sparked by Cardinal Schönborn in our own day illustrate the complexity of the philosophical ideas surrounding evolutionary theory as well as the care with which scientists must treat the theory if they wish to stay within the capabilities of their craft. See, for example:


Schönborn, Finding Design in Nature

Stephen Barr, The Design of Evolution

Schönborn, Reasonable Science, Reasonable Faith
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 15, 2017, 11:21 PM
 
Would you say that most self-proclaimed Catholics believe in Evolution or are staunchly against it? What about Creationism? I always thought that was an evangelical thing and was surprised to learn that a number Catholics in Northern Ireland and the US are creationists.
Seems to be plenty of anti-evolution and creationism in Islam too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 08:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Um...There are huge numbers of religious Americans who staunchly do not believe in evolution. I think you're a bit off-base to assume it's been fully accepted by religious communities. Heck, my nephew and his wife just made a long road trip to take their kids to the Creation Museum. They're both reasonably intelligent people, but are also very conservative evangelicals
I guess you are right.

Kind of feels like we are on the verge of a scientific boom period with the advent of AI, renewed space travel, transportation, and energy production and consumption.

Could all of this come to a head with some sort of civil war between the scientifically enlightened and those that still subscribe to religious dogma?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 09:09 AM
 
It feels like despite the EPA being terrible and Betsy DeVos being awful, there is less anti-science policy and legislation floating around than we had cause to expect under Trump.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Oct 16, 2017, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Could all of this come to a head with some sort of civil war between the scientifically enlightened and those that still subscribe to religious dogma?
If there is, my money is on the Templars.
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 11:11 AM
 
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 16, 2017, 11:14 AM
 
You'd bring a sword to a laser fight?

Lasers being wielded by robotic bears?
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 16, 2017, 11:44 AM
 
This thread reeks of, "I'd like to feel better about myself and find some cheap conflict."

Why would a creationist raise their hand to get ridiculed or brow beat by besson? The topic isn't even related to current goings on.
     
Laminar
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Oct 16, 2017, 12:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This thread reeks of, "I'd like to feel better about myself and find some cheap conflict."

Why would a creationist raise their hand to get ridiculed or brow beat by besson?
I mean, Chongo did it.

The topic isn't even related to current goings on.
I don't think that's a prerequisite for creating a forum thread.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 16, 2017, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This thread reeks of, "I'd like to feel better about myself and find some cheap conflict."

Why would a creationist raise their hand to get ridiculed or brow beat by besson? The topic isn't even related to current goings on.

This is a thread CTP would like, because he would get to put people into boxes and share his perception of trends.

This is just a very unscientific, non-data driven thread about how acceptance of scientific issues generally works, because it is so foggy to me I'm not even sure where to start. I mean, it's probably safe to say that there are some devout religious people that are onboard with evolution that wouldn't have been decades ago. I'm just wondering how that process works of stuff that was a threat becoming accepted over time.

There are lots of examples to draw from over the course of history.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Even people who say they don't believe in evolution believe in its key components. Namely genetic inheritance of traits and survival of the fittest. I've never seen anyone doubt the former and those who dispute the latter tend to be big fans of it when it comes to corporations and free market economics. If you buy with premises, then you believe in evolution. Whether you understand that you do (or should admit it) is the real issue. Most people simply don't understand evolution very well at all.
^this

It seems very common sense, I'm sure many people believe some aspects (even the paragraphs Chongo posted, or something similar to "god made it happen that way") but then it deravels – heavens forfend we be related to apes. God is infinitely wise and would not have done that. Why not? Why allow for natural selection in some species but not humanity? It comes down to selectively choosing when to believe the Bible is literal and exact and not translated/retranslated over thousands of years. Meaning changes over time. Who knows what poetic intent may have been employed by original authors or translators... it's biblical telephone. Eve was made from a rib? Ok.

The god(s)(esses) if they exist, are playing simCityCivilization. Roll the dice and see what happens in a thousand years.
     
subego
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You'd bring a sword to a laser fight?

Lasers being wielded by robotic bears?
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen. 3:24

In other words, they get +20 swords of flaming, holy ****-off.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:38 PM
 
Child murder, not at all but Evolution, now thats mysterious ways.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life. Gen. 3:24

In other words, they get +20 swords of flaming, holy ****-off.
But yet they'd still need to get close to the bears to use their flaming swords... without being blasted by lasers. I also think the nerds would figure out how to make the bears fireproof.
     
subego
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Oct 16, 2017, 02:49 PM
 
That's what the frankincense is for.

Absorbs lasers, and makes the bears cough.
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Even people who say they don't believe in evolution believe in its key components. Namely genetic inheritance of traits and survival of the fittest. I've never seen anyone doubt the former and those who dispute the latter tend to be big fans of it when it comes to corporations and free market economics. If you buy with premises, then you believe in evolution. Whether you understand that you do (or should admit it) is the real issue. Most people simply don't understand evolution very well at all.
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
^this

It seems very common sense, I'm sure many people believe some aspects (even the paragraphs Chongo posted, or something similar to "god made it happen that way") but then it deravels – heavens forfend we be related to apes. God is infinitely wise and would not have done that. Why not? Why allow for natural selection in some species but not humanity? It comes down to selectively choosing when to believe the Bible is literal and exact and not translated/retranslated over thousands of years. Meaning changes over time. Who knows what poetic intent may have been employed by original authors or translators... it's biblical telephone. Eve was made from a rib? Ok.

The god(s)(esses) if they exist, are playing simCityCivilization. Roll the dice and see what happens in a thousand years.
Just for giggles, who did the first work on genetics and the Big Bang theory?

When pressed by Ben Stein during his interview for the movie “Expelled,” Richard Dawkins said it was aliens.

     
andi*pandi
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That's what the frankincense is for.

Absorbs lasers, and makes the bears cough.
The bears don't breathe, and see via night vision tech. They still eat the knights.
     
Laminar
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Just for giggles, who did the first work on genetics and the Big Bang theory?
Are you trying to pull another "but look at the success of this famous old-timey religious person!"? Back when religion was the default choice and publicly condemning religion was grounds for ostracization, persecution, or even death? Yes, tell me about all of the vocal athiests of the 1600s. It's like when people try and claim that America's founding fathers were all Christians when most of them were Diests, because that was about the closest thing to agnosticism or atheism at the time.
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Are you trying to pull another "but look at the success of this famous old-timey religious person!"? Back when religion was the default choice and publicly condemning religion was grounds for ostracization, persecution, or even death? Yes, tell me about all of the vocal athiests of the 1600s. It's like when people try and claim that America's founding fathers were all Christians when most of them were Diests, because that was about the closest thing to agnosticism or atheism at the time.
Who were these “old timey” people? They can’t be that old timey because there are photographs of both men.
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Who were these “old timey” people? They can’t be that old timey because there are photographs of both men.
So abuse scandals that were still going strong this century are in the past and not relevant, but the (far) past scientific primacy of the Church is?

One of your guys died in the 1800's and the other one published his Big Bang paper in 1927.

Why is there a statue of limitations for child abuse but not science?
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
[img]https://************************************************[/img]
You forgot the Crusades and the Inquisition.
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You forgot the Crusades and the Inquisition.
And you forgot about the kids.
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
[IMG]https://************************************************[/IMG]
Do you need to be rewound or are you battery powered?
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 04:55 PM
 

Maybe it was just another of your renowned scientists teaching him about anatomy.
     
Laminar
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Oct 16, 2017, 04:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Who were these “old timey” people? They can’t be that old timey because there are photographs of both men.
My point is that you keep trying to bring up famous religious scientists from long ago, as if that provides any legitimacy to religion in general today. That's not how it works.
     
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:04 PM
 
I think the issue comes down to the use of the term "Evolution". There is "Microevolution" which describes "mutation, selection (natural and artificial), gene flow, and genetic drift" within a population. And then there is "Macroevolution" which describes these same processes at or above the species level over much greater periods of time. Now from a scientific standpoint they are one and the same. But from a layman's standpoint the former is "observable" whereas the latter is "theoretical" and much more difficult to wrap one's head around. Hence the pushback.

OAW
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
My point is that you keep trying to bring up famous religious scientists from long ago, as if that provides any legitimacy to religion in general today. That's not how it works.
Not that long ago. The Father of the Big Bang with Einstein
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
[IMG]https://************************************************[/IMG]
Your arms must be ripped by now.
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Not that long ago. The Father of the Big Bang with Einstein
Even more recent.

     
Laminar
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Not that long ago. The Father of the Big Bang with Einstein
You post this sort of stuff all of the time, but you never actually spell out your conclusion. What are you getting at? What is your point?
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You post this sort of stuff all of the time, but you never actually spell out your conclusion. What are you getting at? What is your point?
That faith and science are not incompatible.
     
Chongo
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Oct 16, 2017, 05:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Even more recent.

     
subego
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Oct 16, 2017, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The bears don't breathe
Not after I'm done with them.
     
Paco500
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Oct 16, 2017, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
[IMG]http://www.*************************************************************[/IMG]
     
reader50
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Oct 16, 2017, 06:58 PM
 
Could everyone please refrain from posting the monkey-clapper gif? I haven't noticed which side of the discussion is affected, but it's really freaking annoying.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 16, 2017, 08:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I don't think that's a prerequisite for creating a forum thread.
No, but the lack of context for its sudden appearance, plus the context of who created the thread has me assuming the worst.
     
Laminar
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Oct 17, 2017, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That faith and science are not incompatible.
Are not or were not? Like I said - many of these people are from a time where eschewing religion meant ostracization, persecution, or even death.

Science is fine as long as it doesn't contradict what the Church chooses to believe this decade. Ask Galileo how his lifetime of house arrest went, or how great is was that his scientific, correct findings were banned for 200 years.
     
Chongo
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Oct 17, 2017, 10:33 AM
 
Here is an entire website dedicated to faith and science. Fr.Spitzer has a weekly show on EWTN.
https://www.magiscenter.com
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 17, 2017, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
No, but the lack of context for its sudden appearance, plus the context of who created the thread has me assuming the worst.
One day you will learn to love me, it just requires some maturity in life.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 17, 2017, 10:59 AM
 
Chongo: are you saying your disbelief in global warming has nothing to do with your religious beliefs?

I think what Laminar said is bang on. He’s been hot lately.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 17, 2017, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That faith and science are not incompatible.
This is generally true.

In the US not so much.
     
Chongo
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Oct 17, 2017, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Chongo: are you saying your disbelief in global warming has nothing to do with your religious beliefs?

I think what Laminar said is bang on. He’s been hot lately.
Nope. It has to do with the data that gets input into the models. The models are only as good as the data that goes in.
     
Paco500
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Oct 17, 2017, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Chongo: are you saying your disbelief in global warming has nothing to do with your religious beliefs?

I think what Laminar said is bang on. He’s been hot lately.
It think his disbelief in global warming has little to do with his faith in his Church, but everything to do with his faith in the Republican party.

His Church is actually pretty enlightened on the issue.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 17, 2017, 02:27 PM
 
The Catholic Church has a pretty good record on science-except on global warming.

Hmmmmm
     
 
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