[zachs]

Link:

The handover of sovereignty to Iraq is being brought forward from 30 June to Monday, Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari has said.

Mr Zebari was speaking after talks with the UK Prime Minister Tony Blair in the Turkish city of Istanbul.

Mr Blair said a formal announcement would be made later.

The BBC's political editor Andrew Marr in Istanbul says the surprise move, which emerged at the start of a Nato summit, is an important symbolic step.

Asked about the handover, Mr Blair told reporters: "I'm not actually in a position right at this moment to confirm that, but the important thing is to understand that the will of the whole international community now is with Iraq as it takes control of its own destiny.

"We are there to help and support from now on."

Mr Zebari did not say exactly when the handover would take place, but it is expected to happen swiftly.

[undotwa]

Let us pray this does not signal for a hasty return of troops. We need troops in there for another 5 years realisticly at least, to stabilize Iraq properly.

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Let us pray this does not signal for a hasty return of troops.

you keep on praying...because that's exactly what will happen.

but kudos for the smart move of doing the handover today. the terrorists probably had something big planned for wednesday. ruined that party.

seems like they captured that sarkawi dude as well...

[Troll]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:
but kudos for the smart move of doing the handover today. the terrorists probably had something big planned for wednesday. ruined that party.

I think the Insurgents/terrorists will see this as a victory. They forced the Americans' hand here.

[palmberg]

Originally posted by phoenixboy70:

seems like they captured that sarkawi dude as well...

Link?

[dreilly1]

Anti-Linky from the NY Times

Today, rumors began to circulate that Mr. Zarqawi, who has a $10-million reward on his head, had been captured in Hilla, south of Baghdad and the scene of a recent suicide attack.

Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a coalition spokesman, however, denied those reports today and said Mr. Zarqawi is not in custody.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think the Insurgents/terrorists will see this as a victory. They forced the Americans' hand here.

Doubt it.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think the Insurgents/terrorists will see this as a victory. They forced the Americans' hand here.

Maybe. It was funny reading how Bremmer handed over the country to them and left shortly there after. It was like "This mess is all yours, good luck!"

Well, one can only hope for the best for Iraq.

[effgee]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Maybe. It was funny reading how Bremmer handed over the country to them and left shortly there after.

If I was Bremmer I'd have left in a hurry, too ... before people start asking me questions regarding the whereabouts of all that Iraqi money.

[gatekeeper]

Originally posted by effgee:
If I was Bremmer I'd have left in a hurry, too ... before people start asking me questions regarding the whereabouts of all that Iraqi money.

[Troll]

Originally posted by CD Hanks:
Doubt it.

Well, the reality is that the handover (what a ceremony it was ) happened earlier than it was supposed to because of how instable the Insurgency has made Iraq. If Iraq had turned out the way the Bushies had hoped, George Bush would have driven through downtown Baghdad in an open topped limo getting showered with flowers and then turned over the keys to Iraq to a new government. Instead, Bremmer gave a puppet government a hand grenade with no pin and then sucked off into the funset.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by effgee:
If I was Bremmer I'd have left in a hurry, too ... before people start asking me questions regarding the whereabouts of all that Iraqi money.

It's pretty obvious what has happened to the money. It was being used to pay all those new politicians in Iraq a lot of money to convince them to work in the interest of the US instead of in the interest of their own people.

The handover of power is only little more than a handover of power from Bremer to Negroponte. Negroponte is the new Cesar in Iraq, and a local governor for the US there, long live Negroponte, hail Negroponte.

Taliesin

[Millennium]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Let us pray this does not signal for a hasty return of troops. We need troops in there for another 5 years realisticly at least, to stabilize Iraq properly.

Indeed; I would have hoped that Afghanistan taught us that lesson in the early 1980s.

However, this is still a good sign. I do not, however, see how the Insurgency in any forced the handover to be completed ahead of schedule. If anything, they were probably hoping for a delay, and it seems they aren't going to get one.

The problem now, of course, will be to stop the Taliban survivors from simply overthrowing the interim government and setting up shop. That's how they came to power in Afghanistan in the first place, because we left too soon. Let us hope that we do not make that mistake again.

[eklipse]

Has Allawi been shot yet?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Millennium:
However, this is still a good sign. I do not, however, see how the Insurgency in any forced the handover to be completed ahead of schedule. If anything, they were probably hoping for a delay, and it seems they aren't going to get one.

I respectfully disagree. They did the transfer in secret in the middle of the Green Zone before the Iraqis woke up. Why would you do that if not to preempt attacks by the Insurgency?

I think it's obvious that they expected the Insurgency to plan attacks to coincide with the transfer and I think they realised that the positive news of the handover would be diluted by the negative news of all of the people that might have been killed. So they moved the date forward, took no risks with holding a ceremony and at least they have one day of relatively good press.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Maybe. It was funny reading how Bremmer handed over the country to them and left shortly there after. It was like "This mess is all yours, good luck!"

I think Paul Bremer is the world's happiest man today. And most relieved.

Well, one can only hope for the best for Iraq.

Here's to hope.

[dreilly1]

It looks like they ditched the ugly baby blue flag that the CPA used. Is this flag the same as the old flag?

[phoenixboy70]

Originally posted by dreilly1:
It looks like they ditched the ugly baby blue flag that the CPA used. Is this flag the same as the old flag?

no, this is actually what their new flag looks like.

[mr. natural]

pretzel-dent Bush crowed:

"Fifteen months after the liberation of Iraq and two days ahead of schedule, the world witnessed the arrival of a full sovereign and free Iraq."

I guess this means the definition of *sovereignty* has been re-written by another top notch lawyer in the employ of the White House. Way to go!

And to think, they are *free* Two Whole Daze Ahead of Schedule! Whoopee! I'm breaking out my Bar-Be-Que right now and tossing on some burgers! Honey, make us some freedom fries too! Let's celebrate!

But wait, you don't think this was due to any conflict their alleged liberation party might have had with our special day do you? I mean, too many fireworks in Baghdad would of taken the shine off our 4th of July, eh?

Naw, the Bushies don't think like that now, do they?

[typoon]

Originally posted by eklipse:
Has Allawi been shot yet?

No But I believe he's been Shot at. I think there was assassination attempt on his life.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think the Insurgents/terrorists will see this as a victory. They forced the Americans' hand here.

Your kidding right?

*snort*

You should take Baghdad Bob's place.

BTW, where are all the people that claim this would never happen?

[zachs]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Your kidding right?

*snort*

You should take Baghdad Bob's place.

Oh, I'm sure they'll see it as a victory.

Whether or not it actually is, is another story.

[CD Hanks]

Originally posted by Troll:
Well, the reality is that the handover (what a ceremony it was ) happened earlier than it was supposed to because of how instable the Insurgency has made Iraq. If Iraq had turned out the way the Bushies had hoped, George Bush would have driven through downtown Baghdad in an open topped limo getting showered with flowers and then turned over the keys to Iraq to a new government. Instead, Bremmer gave a puppet government a hand grenade with no pin and then sucked off into the funset.

Wow. Just...wow.

(BUSHIES?! What imbecile coined that term?)

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zachs:
Oh, I'm sure they'll see it as a victory.

Whether or not it actually is, is another story.

That may be true. Those fellows are a bit deluded aren't they.

[swrate]

Yes, to put a foot in , you will have to pay the collaborators or the indicators�
A gap of how much out of the 20 billion$ movement?

Allawi not shot yet� ah oui, saka, zarka oui, non not caught
And the flag is different from the one planned, I figured red is in it, because the background in the handover pic, and phoenix, yours is a bit, well, lol funny, so here it is:


http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefme...g/T049078A.jpg

Good riddance for the US, the look on Blairs and Bushes faces and their quick handshake said it all.

Now I wonder, if the Iraqis, who cant stand occupation will agree to let others take care of their business....


Allah Akbar

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by swrate:
YGood riddance for the US, the look on Blairs and Bushes faces and their quick handshake said it all.

The looks on their faces were normal. I think your bias has tinted your outlook.

[swrate]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The looks on their faces were normal. I think your bias has tinted your outlook.

maybe, fact is even Bremer did not DARE stay in Iraq: he just pops in, anonymously, signs his stuff and splits.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by swrate:
maybe, fact is even Bremer did not DARE stay in Iraq: he just pops in, anonymously, signs his stuff and splits.

So?

Again, you are reading into things that just aren't there.

[Spliffdaddy]

Now Iraq can fall on its face (yet again). A victim of Iraqi citizens that did not pay for their freedom.

Like a rented BMW M3.

Thrash it, smash it, wring it out.

The pride in ownership is non-existent.

[bleuvixen]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Now Iraq can fall on its face (yet again). A victim of Iraqi citizens that did not pay for their freedom.

Like a rented BMW M3.

Thrash it, smash it, wring it out.

The pride in ownership is non-existent.

Your point is what? This is the current Admin's plan in action

[swrate]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Now Iraq can fall on its face (yet again). A victim of Iraqi citizens that did not pay for their freedom.

Like a rented BMW M3.

Thrash it, smash it, wring it out.

The pride in ownership is non-existent.

Is Iraq really free?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by swrate:
Is Iraq really free?

No. Iraqis never showed an interest in being free.

They're as free as they've ever been, however.

When iraq is truly ready for freedom, they'll seek it.

[swrate]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
No. Iraqis never showed an interest in being free.

They're as free as they've ever been, however.

When iraq is truly ready for freedom, they'll seek it.

Maybe, I am pessimistic, I see Iraq becoming a terrorist nest, with black market and starvation for a while. I hope I am seing wrong.
"He made it" glance. bush/blair (on bremer)

Saddam is away, great, but are their lifes better, worse, or the same as then? I fear the answer is their lifes, generally speaking is not better.
How long until Iraq finds stability, and, will Iraq stay "united" ?

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by swrate:
Maybe, I am pessimistic, I see Iraq becoming a terrorist nest, with black market and starvation for a while. I hope I am seing wrong.
"He made it" glance. bush/blair (on bremer)

Saddam is away, great, but are their lifes better, worse, or the same as then? I fear the answer is their lifes, generally speaking is not better.
How long until Iraq finds stability, and, will Iraq stay "united" ?

ding ding ding

we have a winner.

Iraq should NOT stay 'united' (as if it ever really was). Just because borders exist on a map, it doesn't mean you have to abide by them forever. Iraq should be split into several smaller nations which are more locally governed. If religion is such a big damn deal, split Iraq along religious lines.


Are Iraqis better off after the liberation?

No, I'd say about the same. They still don't have a government representative of the people. (unless you count Saddam as representative of Iraqi people. Something I'm growing more inclined to believe.)

hate to say it, but the Iraqis apparently haven't suffered enough, else they would take their freedom by force.

I'm perfectly willing to kill and die for my freedom. The Iraqis, by and large, do not share the same sentiment. Perhaps because they do not miss what they never had. Perhaps because suffering, for them, has become an accepted part of life.

Whatever the reasons, I look at Iraq and I don't see a nation of people united in a common goal of freedom.

not yet, anyway.

[chabig]

Haven't you libs heard? Bush lied again! He said the transfer would take place on Wednesday, and then they did it two days early.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by chabig:
Haven't you libs heard? Bush lied again! He said the transfer would take place on Wednesday, and then they did it two days early.

much to the dismay of peaceniks who are on record as saying it wouldn't happen.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Your kidding right?

My kidding? I don't have a kidding.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
The looks on their faces were normal.

They looked tired to me. But I guess that's what happens when you have to sneak around in the middle of the night to do a secret ceremony in the middle of a military base.

I wonder if Cheney suggested this middle of the night thing. Isn't that how they got the Patriot Act passed?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Troll:
I respectfully disagree. They did the transfer in secret in the middle of the Green Zone before the Iraqis woke up. Why would you do that if not to preempt attacks by the Insurgency?

Oh, understood. But that is hardly a case of the Insurgency forcing the government's hand. If I install a lock on my front door to prevent burglars from entering my home, have the burglars forced my hand? No. Why is this any different, except for being on a larger scale?

The only way this could possibly have been a forced-hand situation would be if the transfer of power hadn't been supposed to happen in the first place. Given how quickly this went -which is in and of itself evidence that all the necessary preparations had been made- that doesn't seem to have been the case.

[MindFad]

Momma always taught me to pull out early. (It would've been funnier if we were actually pulling out, I guess.)

[spacefreak]

Letter passed to President, with his words written in marker...

[saab95]

Iraq Handover Taking Place Today

Looks like Saddam Hussein is going to lose his head.

[PacHead]

Iraq is now a sovereign, free, democratic nation ?

A sad, sad day for the left, indeed.

[lil'babykitten]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Iraq is now a sovereign, free, democratic nation ?

Not at all.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Oh, understood. But that is hardly a case of the Insurgency forcing the government's hand. If I install a lock on my front door to prevent burglars from entering my home, have the burglars forced my hand? No. Why is this any different, except for being on a larger scale?

The only way this could possibly have been a forced-hand situation would be if the transfer of power hadn't been supposed to happen in the first place. Given how quickly this went -which is in and of itself evidence that all the necessary preparations had been made- that doesn't seem to have been the case.

Agreed. Actually, a better analogy than the lock change is the strategic deception campaign prior to D Day, when the allies convinced the Germans that the invasion would take place at the Pas de Calais, making the Germans move their defenses and upsetting their plans.

Here, the insurgency, who were obviously trying to disrupt and if they could prevent the handoff to a legitimate, but friendly to the US government have had their plans upset. Assuming of course that they had a bombing campaign set up for the run up to the announced handoff -- which is likely. Now they have a choice, continue an insurgency against an Arab government, or go home and take advantage of the amnesty offered on the weekend. I suspect the hopeless killers will take the former course, and others will take the latter. This will hopefully deprive the insurgency of a lot of momentum.

Either way, that is not any kind of victory for the insurgency. US and other multinational troops aren't going anywhere and now NATO has agreed to train the Iraqi security forces. The Ba'ath party is still out of power. And foreign Jihadists aren't going to get a fundamentalist state. That's not much of a victory for any of the groups fighting. But it is potentially a victory for Iraqis who want a better life.

[Spliffdaddy]

maybe even for both of them.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by PacHead:
Iraq is now a sovereign, free, democratic nation ?

A sad, sad day for the left, indeed.

Not quite. Limited sovereignty.

[tie]

Originally posted by Troll:
I think the Insurgents/terrorists will see this as a victory. They forced the Americans' hand here.

It is a loss for the US that it had to be handled this way. The insurgents forced our hand. But it is hardly a victory for the insurgency. They only win from -- their only goals are -- chaos and destruction.

[slow moe]

Dang it, I was hoping the Left was gonna be all pessimistic about it. I didn't know they was gonna be so full of hope and optimism for Iraq's future, what saying all those nice things and all.

This stinks, I don't know what to do now.

[slow moe]

I just think it's great that the Left finally gets it about Iraq. I mean, Jihadists have known what's up since even before March '03, summer of '02 probably. Anyways, it's taken them a while, but it's good to see they fully understand it now.