[ambush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Oh really?!?!

Your ignorance must give you a natural high. It's astounding the levels of ignorance you have obtained. Even in this thread you have ignored information that would prove you wrong.

Being unemployed is bad for your mental health.

Seek a job, and help.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by ambush

Being unemployed is bad for your mental health.

Seek a job, and help.

That was uncalled for.

[Railroader]

I am going back to school! With the $140k GM has just given me I am going to go back to college and get my teacher's certification.

Actually, my wife has remarked that I don't have to do anything and that she can support us fully now... but I am not that kind of guy.

Thanks for your concern!

Now, go focus your obsessive compulsive disorder upon some benign activity like playing video games or the like. You really have some unhealthy hobbies.

OT: Sounds like Jamaica might be the place for a liberal.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by itistoday

That was uncalled for.

Don't worry, he's mostly harmless. He often derails a thread trying to attack me. Nobody reports him and he usually goes away in a day or two.

I am concerned about his mental health though. He has a weird obsession with me and my wife. He comments often about my sex life and follows me around on the forums quite a bit. He has indicated that he takes medication for depression and anxiety in the past. I can only assume he has stopped taking it.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by ghporter

I'd suggest that, at least now, "a little safe fun" is not equal with ANY illegal drug use. As most of what's sold in the U.S. is funneled through one or another "organized" element, you're supporting (and beholden to) organized crime by just purchasing pot. On top of that, there's no hint of what's included in such drugs, or even that they are indeed what they seem to be; herbicide-laced pot, strichnine-cut cocaine, who knows what in heroin... it's a very dangerous gamble.

Another excellent reason of mine for leaving the US of A.

Edit: Oh, and of course, to say that there's "no hint" of what's inside is just ridiculous and again points to your ignorance. There are many methods of testing and verifying a substance's contents, ranging from the reputation it has to actually performing experiments yourself (melting point, reactions to chemicals, etc).

Edit2: Not to mention the fact that it's in the drug dealer's best interest to keep his customers alive. He won't get much business (perhaps a bullet to the head) if his customers are dropping like flies.

To me "a little safe fun" would be playing board games at the home of a classmate, not escaping from reality, even with alcohol.

Two problems with this statement:
1) It could be argued that playing chess, reading a book, watching a movie, are also methods of escaping from reality. Just a little nit-pick, I do understand the distinction you're trying to make.

2) "even with alcohol"? That shows your ignorance, how about especially with alcohol. Alcohol is far worse for you that many illegal drugs, including, but not limited to marijuana (THC), ecstasy (MDMA), LSD, etc. However, when taken intelligently in moderation, even alcohol can actually be "a little safe fun". Edit: f*ck, there are many study's pointing to its health benefits as well. Again, intelligence and moderation is the key. A little too much water'll kill ya too.

As for "the record industry ripping us off," there are better ways of dealing with their predatory and over-profitable practices than stealing. It's STILL stealing, you know, whether it's a reasoned response to the market or not.

When you think of a method that'll get the RIAA to change its business model you tell me.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by Railroader

OT: Sounds like Jamaica might be the place for a liberal.

Jamaica is a mess. It may look good to the tourist but the reality is painfully different.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

Jamaica is a mess. It may look good to the tourist but the reality is painfully different.

Everywhere where "liberal" laws are enacted ends up being a mess. Just a fact of life.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Everywhere where "liberal" laws are enacted ends up being a mess. Just a fact of life.

Yes, I mean just look at Canada, Belgium, Japan and various other liberal nations. A mess I tell you! What we need are more country's like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, conservative America, oppressive Cuba, North Korea, and various other countries where liberal ideas are frowned upon. It's not your decision as to whether or not you can marry this person, have that child, smoke that joint. The right to pursue what gives you happiness? F*ck that.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by itistoday

A mess I tell you! What we need are more country's like Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, conservative America, oppressive Cuba, North Korea,

Sing along folks!

~ One of these words don't belong, one of these words aren't like the others!~

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Yes, I mean just look at Canada, Belgium, Japan

So, it's legal to toke in those places?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am going back to school! With the $140k GM has just given me I am going to go back to college and get my teacher's certification.

Actually, my wife has remarked that I don't have to do anything and that she can support us fully now... but I am not that kind of guy.

Nice to not only have the ability to do such a thing, but also have a wife that supports you like that.

Some would have freaked out.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So, it's legal to toke in those places?

At least parts of Canada (and all of Canada doesn't really give a ****, meaning it's not enforced in other places anyway):

Thanks to recent court decisions, the Canadian province of Ontario is now one of the world's freest zones for marijuana users.

In 2000, Ontario courts gave the government one year to change the law to make marijuana available for medical use, or else the laws against cannabis would be struck down entirely. Yet the Liberal government didn't change the law, they merely enacted new regulations, which are themselves being challenged in court.

So on May 16, 2003, Ontario's Superior Court ruled that cannabis possession is "not an offense known to law," because the government had failed to properly change the marijuana laws to allow for medical use.

Yes, for Belgium:

On March 31, 2003, the Belgian parliament passed the law legalizing use of soft drugs and their storage for personal use in amount of not more than 5 grammes.

And while I don't think it's legal in Japan, Japan is liberal in many other aspects of life, particularly when it comes to sex, and therefore has one of the lowest (if not the lowest) rape/violent crime rates. America, with its incredibly conservative stance on sex, has one of the highest rates of rape and violent crimes.

[itistoday]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Sing along folks!

~ One of these words don't belong, one of these words aren't like the others!~

Thankfully the US of A hasn't completely gone over to that side, but it's certainly going in that direction. The point was to show that it's adopting oppressive non-liberal laws (such as South Dakota (or was it the North?) with its insane abortion laws) and many states and their laws concerning gay marriage. Then we have the federal government that's spying on you, and won't tell you or your congressmen exactly what it's doing. *ahem* and various other things that have been mentioned in this thread and others.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am going back to school! With the $140k GM has just given me I am going to go back to college and get my teacher's certification.

Congratulations on the career decision. Hope it all works out the way you want it. How are job prospects for teachers after training?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Everywhere where "liberal" laws are enacted ends up being a mess. Just a fact of life.

Right. Ok. Moving along.

Oh, and if you get caught with a pocket full of joints by an OPP officer you'll go down faster than a five buck hooker. Law or no law.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

I am going back to school! With the $140k GM has just given me I am going to go back to college and get my teacher's certification.

Actually, my wife has remarked that I don't have to do anything and that she can support us fully now... but I am not that kind of guy.

Thanks for your concern!

Now, go focus your obsessive compulsive disorder upon some benign activity like playing video games or the like. You really have some unhealthy hobbies.

I <3 u.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Oh, and if you get caught with a pocket full of joints by an OPP officer you'll go down faster than a five buck hooker. Law or no law.

What the hell is an OPP officer?

[Mastrap]

Ontario Provincial Police. Sorry.

In other words, the Ontario equivalent of a Mountie. But generally with a shittier attitude than the ones we see on TV.

"In a hurry, are we son?"

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by itistoday

At least parts of Canada (and all of Canada doesn't really give a ****, meaning it's not enforced in other places anyway):

Yes, for Belgium:

And while I don't think it's legal in Japan, Japan is liberal in many other aspects of life, particularly when it comes to sex, and therefore has one of the lowest (if not the lowest) rape/violent crime rates. America, with its incredibly conservative stance on sex, has one of the highest rates of rape and violent crimes.

Right. Places where someone else decides how much you can toke is not my idea of "liberal".

But let's test your theories of those being liberal countries further.

How about ownership of M16A2 rifles? Legal in those countries? If not, how is that "liberal"?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Ontario Provincial Police. Sorry.

In other words, the Ontario equivalent of a Mountie.

So sorta like a US State Trooper?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So sorta like a US State Trooper?

That's the ticket. Ticket being the operative word here.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

That's the ticket. Ticket being the operative word here.

Right. Cheers for the explanation.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

How about ownership of M16A2 rifles? Legal in those countries? If not, how is that "liberal"?

There's a good definition of the meaning of liberal here:

Liberalism is an ideology, philosophy, and political tradition which holds liberty as the primary political value.[1]

Broadly speaking, liberalism seeks a society characterized by freedom of thought for individuals, limitations on the power of government, wealth, and religion, the rule of law, the free exchange of ideas, a market economy that supports private enterprise, and a transparent system of government in which the rights of minorities are guaranteed. In modern society, liberals favour a liberal democracy in the form of either a republic (e.g. France, Germany and India) or a constitutional monarchy (e.g. the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, the United Kingdom and the countries of the Commonwealth realm), with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law and an equal opportunity to succeed[2].

Liberalism rejected many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as the Divine Right of Kings, hereditary status, and established religion. Fundamental human rights that all liberals support include the right to life, liberty, and property. In many countries, modern liberalism differs from classical liberalism by asserting that government provision of some minimal level of material well-being takes priority over freedom from taxation.

Liberalism has it roots in the Western Enlightenment, but the term now encompasses a diversity of political thought, with adherents spanning a large part of the political spectrum, from left to right. In the context of economics, the term "liberalism" refers to economic liberalism.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

There's a good definition of the meaning of liberal here:

I'm aware of what liberalism is, thanks.

Just wanted to know how being banned from target shooting with your favoured weapon fits in with this concept of liberty.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Right. Cheers for the explanation.

A little bit more in the way of information:

The RCMP acts as the federal (national) police for all of Canada, enforcing certain federal laws. It also has contracts with Canada's three territories and eight of its provinces to serve as their provincial/territorial police force. Most of Canada's provinces, while constitutionally responsible for law and order, prefer to sub-contract policing to the RCMP. They consequently operate under the direction of the provinces in regard to provincial and municipal law enforcement. The exceptions are Ontario, Quebec, and parts of Newfoundland and Labrador, which have retained their own provincial police forces. Additionally, many towns and cities throughout Canada also contract the RCMP to serve as their municipal police force. The RCMP is the largest police force in Canada; as of April 2005, the RCMP had an on-strength establishment of 22,557 personnel[1].

The RCMP was created as the North West Mounted Police (NWMP) in 1873, given the "Royal" title in 1904, becoming the Royal North West Mounted Police (RNWMP). In 1920 it was renamed to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Force when the RNWMP was merged with the Dominion Police. Among themselves, the Mounties universally refer to their organization as "The Force" and members of the force are referred to as "Members."

It has been theorized that the international popularity of the force lies in it being representative of a symbol of the balance of civilization and the frontier. That is, the RCMP is a police force that operates in the seemingly wild frontier, but operates under the behest of a central, if somewhat removed, bureaucratic authority back in the settled regions. In addition, the existence of the RCMP in Canada and the complete lack of any analogous organization in the Western United States during the frontier period has often been cited as both a cause and effect of cultural differences between Canada and the United States.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

I'm aware of what liberalism is, thanks.

Just wanted to know how being banned from target shooting with your favoured weapon fits in with this concept of liberty.

If you're really aware of what liberalism is then this question should answer itself.

Liberalism isn't the absence of law. And as long as the law is supported by the majority of the populace a liberal government may well enforce laws that restrict personal freedoms to protect the greater good.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

A little bit more in the way of information:

To be honest, I've thought about the RCMP so little that I've still got a feeling that they all have deaf wolves as pets.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Congratulations on the career decision. Hope it all works out the way you want it. How are job prospects for teachers after training?

Thanks.

Very good for my field. The local school district offered me a teaching job without certification, they need people that badly. I'll pretty much have my choice to teach anywhere.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

He has indicated that he takes medication for depression and anxiety in the past. I can only assume he has stopped taking it.

Stop the projection.
I've never taken any SSRI, because I don't have any prescription for it and I'm not depressive.

Hmm.. Don't you need to go to university to be able to teach? That's what they require here...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ambush

[img]http://www.safeway.com/backtoschool/images/back_to_school_hero.jpg[img]
[img]http://www.wherehouse.com/amgcover/dvd/full/t0/37/t03789ffshf.jpg[img]

I <3 u.

Zoiks!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

If you're really aware of what liberalism is then this question should answer itself.

Liberalism isn't the absence of law. And as long as the law is supported by the majority of the populace a liberal government may well enforce laws that restrict personal freedoms to protect the greater good.

So... ...if 51% of the US electorate support toking being illegal, then the US can be said to be "liberal". Therefore, the OP doesn't need to move at all.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ambush

Stop the projection.
I've never taken any SSRI, because I don't have any prescription for it and I'm not depressive.

You certainly know all of the term and medications. Are you sure you haven't been treated by a therapist? Maybe your memory is going bad from pot overuse?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy

So... ...if 51% of the US electorate support toking being illegal, then the US can be said to be "liberal". Therefore, the OP doesn't need to move at all.

Yeah, I think the OP has a number of issues to deal with. The grass is greener and all that. Of course, here in Canada....

[ReggieX]

Originally Posted by itistoday

If you bought a song 10 years ago on a cassette tape, why should you have to pay for that same song again each time the media changes? (Pay for the record, the cassette, the CD, and the mp3). My music library contains almost 2,000 songs, should I have to pay $2,000 for each of my child's music? A full iPod can contain several tens of thousands of songs, so do I buy them a $300 iPod, plus $20,000 worth of music, and then re-buy that same music 10 years later when the media changes yet again??

What about things like Photoshop? Say my kid wants to learn how to become a digital artist, in order to apply for a job he needs to know how to use Photoshop and various other expensive programs. Why should he have to pay $1,000 to use a piece of software simply for educational purposes?? He just wants to learn how to use it so that he can get the job so that he can get the money to buy the software in the future when he can actually use it to make money.

You're mixing up a lot of things all into one post, none of which necessarily follow the other.

1) No one forces you to re-buy music, you do it on your own volition. If you own the tape/CD/record, you can make an MP3 out of it for free, so claiming to have to re-buy it is a false claim.

2) What about Photoshop? It's a professional-level tool with an appropriate price. Your kid could take a community college course for cheaper than the price of the software and use it in their labs for free, and get an educational discount if he really needs to buy it. Hell, just buy Photoshop elements, it's cheaper and does most of what Photoshop does. If he's honestly that serious about becoming a digital artist, he'll have to make an investment in hardware and software at some point; the pay off comes with the job.

[Doofy]

Railroader: Please edit that quote from Ambush a couple of posts up. The side-scrolling hurteth my brain! Thanks bro.

[ambush]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You certainly know all of the term and medications. Are you sure you haven't been treated by a therapist? Maybe your memory is going bad from pot overuse?

I know the terms because I did researches on them in my bio course.
And pot ****s your memory up only when it's active. E.g. for 3 hours

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Railroader: Please edit that quote from Ambush a couple of posts up. The side-scrolling hurteth my brain! Thanks bro.

Done.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ambush

I know the terms because I did researches on them in my bio course.
And pot ****s your memory up only when it's active. E.g. for 3 hours

Sure.

[jason98]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Sure.

you are the biggest asswipe i've ever encountered at any forum

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by jason98

you are the biggest asswipe i've ever encountered at any forum

No need for that. Reportinated.

[jason98]

Originally Posted by Doofy

No need for that. Reportinated.

and you're a limey skank!!!

oh gawd i hate limeys!!!

and the whole inbred windsors or shickelgruber or whatever their last name is.

[abe]

Originally Posted by jason98

you are the biggest asswipe i've ever encountered at any forum

You are swill. And I know this gets you off, flaming the good people here. But think about something.

When you stop laughing and smiling from all your fun and games, you'll have to recognize...

You are one of life's losers.

And this indictment will ring in your ears and mind until you decide to find some way to benefit society rather than try to inflict pain on your fellow man.

One of life's losers until you become a contributor to society.

jason98, one of life's losers.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by itistoday

Another excellent reason of mine for leaving the US of A.

Edit: Oh, and of course, to say that there's "no hint" of what's inside is just ridiculous and again points to your ignorance. There are many methods of testing and verifying a substance's contents, ranging from the reputation it has to actually performing experiments yourself (melting point, reactions to chemicals, etc).

Edit2: Not to mention the fact that it's in the drug dealer's best interest to keep his customers alive. He won't get much business (perhaps a bullet to the head) if his customers are dropping like flies.

I do not think that illegal drugs can be trusted to be what they are and of sufficient purity to be predictable, no matter where you get them or how you test them. Of course you can test the chemical properties of a white powder purported to be "drug x" and compare them to known properties of that drug, but without serious chemical analysis, all that will tell you is that some fraction of that powder is similar chemically to what you thought it was. And it does not address what happens when you buy pot; what's ON those leaves? You cannot be sure without more significant chemical analysis.

My point was that, unlike the late 60s and early 70s when people grew a little marijuana "out back of the shed" and sold it just because it was good to share, illegal drugs are big business today and without ANY quality controls. I'd be scared to try any such drugs today because of the potential for them to be cut, adulterated and even spiked. And no matter how well you trust the person you buy it from, can you trust THEIR source?

Originally Posted by itistoday

Two problems with this statement:
1) It could be argued that playing chess, reading a book, watching a movie, are also methods of escaping from reality. Just a little nit-pick, I do understand the distinction you're trying to make.

2) "even with alcohol"? That shows your ignorance, how about especially with alcohol. Alcohol is far worse for you that many illegal drugs, including, but not limited to marijuana (THC), ecstasy (MDMA), LSD, etc. However, when taken intelligently in moderation, even alcohol can actually be "a little safe fun". Edit: f*ck, there are many study's pointing to its health benefits as well. Again, intelligence and moderation is the key. A little too much water'll kill ya too.

ANY chemical "escape" is less desirable than a conscious, intentional mental escape. There's no problem with escape as such, but depending on some sort of chemical to get there is a bad choice and depending on drugs as one's primary escape shows a lack of imagination. Chess is a great game and exceptionally good mental exercise. Being high is pretty much the opposite. And whatever the effects of overuse of alcohol, at least I KNOW what's in the wine or spirits I drink; illegal drugs have no such guarantee, and the typical adulterants in such drugs can make cirrosis of the liver look like fun.

Originally Posted by itistoday

When you think of a method that'll get the RIAA to change its business model you tell me.

Start by supporting artists that use independent marketing channels, including direct sales. The suits at RIAA don't get a cut of that...

Oh, and before you form the opinion that I'm Mr. Republican Cement Head, let me point out that politics has nothing to do with my above opinions. I've been involved in helping people get and stay straight for a long time, and the bad guys still don't give a damn about whether you die from what you buy from them. I'd personally like the U.S. government to cash in big time on many currently illegal drugs; it'd be wonderful to put the cocaine cartels out of business with properly prepared, clean and safe cocaine in controlled concentrations, sold by licensed outlets (taxed out the wazoo, too, to support treatment and care of the people that rot their brains, noses, etc. with the stuff) and ONLY to people who were legal adults. I'd love to see all those (at a loss for a bad enough word here) "people" who make millions off of adicting Americans to suddenly lose their collective shirts-and their pull with governments and "revolutionary" groups. Payback time! No, I'm a firm believer in doing the right thing for oneself-I just don't think the world today would cooperate with us in this particular area.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jason98

and you're a limey skank!!!

oh gawd i hate limeys!!!

and the whole inbred windsors or shickelgruber or whatever their last name is.

[aristotles]

You know what I hate? People like itistoday who misrepresent Canada in a similar way to how that Bowling for Columbine movie did.

Canada is a damn fine country but we are far from being a paradise. We have gun violence and various violent crimes every day.

We are also not all left wing. In fact, the liberal party is really no different than the democrats in the US. Neither of those are "left" wing on the economic spectrum but right of centre.

The reason why there is this perception is because the majority of Canadians are too apathetic about politics in general to speak up about it these days. The left wing radicals just like to make a lot more noise about their "issues".

If you want to see a truer example of our political makeup, you should look at the 80's when the PC party won a landslide victory. Back then, people still cared about how your country should be run and they still had confidence in your politicians and our political system. After the corruption of the Brian Mulroney regime, most people lost confidence in all political parties.

If you look at the results of the last election, you will see that there has been a resurgence of this "silent majority" but there are still a great deal of people either not voting or simply voting for the devil they know.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by aristotles

The reason why there is this perception is because the majority of Canadians are too apathetic about politics in general to speak up about it these days.

An unworthy over-generalization of Canadians.

Originally Posted by aristotles

If you want to see a truer example of our political makeup, you should look at the 80's when the PC party won a landslide victory. Back then, people still cared about how your country should be run and they still had confidence in your politicians and our political system. After the corruption of the Brian Mulroney regime, most people lost confidence in all political parties.

Your memory of Canadian history is faulty.

Originally Posted by aristotles

If you look at the results of the last election, you will see that there has been a resurgence of this "silent majority" but there are still a great deal of people either not voting or simply voting for the devil they know.

There is no "resurgence" of anything. The Liberals were tossed because the Tories and Reformers were no longer splitting the vote.

Like you, I too hate people misrepresenting Canada.

[Kevin]

lpkmckenna I am not saying WHO is RIGHT or WRONG here, but you might as well not posted that.

You basically just said "nu uh" and hit reply.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by jason98

you are the biggest asswipe i've ever encountered at any forum

I would never call anyone an asswipe. Maybe you should look in a mirror.

[jamil5454]

Marijuana, taken in small doses spread apart (say once a month), has no measurable long-term effect on one's intellect or motivation.

However, smoking 3-4 joints a week or more definitely leads to drained ambition, more problems in daily life (or making the existing ones worse), inablility to deal with undesirable emotions, and a loss of problem solving skills, concentration, and even IQ.

A common misconception about marijuana is that its effects last only ~2-4 hours, when in fact, the chemical is present in the brain for 24 hours. And as long as the THC is in the brain, it impairs coordination and short-term memory.

Also, marijuana smoke contains 50-70% more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than cigarette smoke, and marijuana smokers tend to inhale as much as they can at a time and hold it in as long as possible, giving the smoke more time to cling to lung tissue. So, puff for puff, marijuana smoke is substantially more harmful than tobacco smoke. The only thing is that tobacco (or nicotine, I should say) is more addictive. But at the same time, many people who would be considered "smokers" actually smoke less tobacco than the average marijuana user smokes weed.

I've tried cannabis a number of times, and I quit after I had a bad experience with it and ended up vomiting for an hour. Most pot nowadays is not "natural" like everyone thinks.

One of my old friends described a popular way of preparing dried marijuana:
- Harvest the plant
- Fill a bathtub up with water
- Put some chlorine, arsenic, etc into the water (formaldehyde was formerly used, but isn't so popular anymore)
- Put the marijuana in the tub, and let it soak overnight
- Drain, dry, and sell

These cheap chemicals basically give a stronger effect to the drug (lacing).

Just a little FYI here. I'm not saying what's right, wrong, bad, or good. I'm just trying to inform both sides of some facts so people can draw their own educated conclusions.

Living in Austin, the legality of marijuana is a major issue around here. But, ironically, the people that uphold very strong opinions toward the legalization of the drug are usually the ones that know little, if any, facts about it.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by jamil5454

But at the same time, many people who would be considered "smokers" actually smoke less tobacco than the average marijuana user smokes weed.

I doubt this very much.

Originally Posted by jamil5454

These cheap chemicals basically give a stronger effect to the drug (lacing).

Legalize and regulate, and this problem goes away.