[macintologist]

This was posted on another forum

I realize that this will be a heated topic, and I realize that many of you will hotly criticize me. While your words can not change anything, I understand and aknowledge them as a part of my own sin.

I am posting this because I have seen a couple posts on here regarding "teenage pregnancy", and because I feel that everyone should see different perspectives, different lights, different choices- even if they may be wrong- and the consequences.

I am 17. My boyfriend and I love each other very much, and plan to get married as soon as we are financially able (2-3 years.) Many of you will consider us having sex wrong in itself. It probably would have been smart to wait, this would have prevented everything else- and would have added something special to our relationship and our wedding day. Needless to say, we did not, and since I love him and know I will marry him- this isn't as big a problem to me as the other events.

Even using protection, I got pregnant. My boyfriend loves children, and he sees them everyday because his mother babysits for a living. When I told him he was overjoyed. We planned to go through with the pregnancy. We knew this would be a hard choice, financially, mentally, and physically (because throughout my pregnancy I had terrible "morning sickness"). We understood that this would be the end of our "teenage lives" and of "fun." We had no problem with this. We expected support from his parents and mine. Not money, but possibly shelter only during the 9 months of pregnancy, and loving - caring support.

When his parents found out, they told him if we went through with the pregnancy they would abandon him. They would not be part of his life, my life, or the babies life. My father reacted the same way (my mother is not in my life.) No other relatives reacted any differently. We researched various ways that we could surivive without any support. We weren't eligible for state Medicare (because I'm under 18, I'd have to be living with my parents for that- and they had decided to kick me out.) We were eligible for food stamps, but only fifty dollars a month. There were no shelters open, and they didn't percieve any to be. Low income housing took 3-4 months to get into, if accepted. We were at a loss at what to do. We couldn't live on the streets in 10 degree weather, and his parents had already told him to start packing. We couldn't deliever a baby, and give him or her proper care without medical insurance. He works at a clothing store for 6.25 an hour, working about 20 hours a week. I stressfully tried to find a job, but as it is winter- no where was hiring, not even McDonalds! His parents strongly pushed abortion. They said it was the best decision. I knew it wasen't. He knew it wasen't. We felt scared, thankfully not alone because we had each other- but we just couldn't see what to do.

I guess somewhere along the line we "decided" abortion was the only real option. I made the appointment, his parents wanted to be there.. but only to "make sure we went through with it". I forbid it.

We went alone. There was a protester outside. He was very kind, and we stopped to talk to him and listened to his options. We had known that adoption was an option, but all the adopted children we know have had a pretty rough life, plus the fact that even with adoption- we would be kicked out of the house, no where to go (and.. I don't think my boyfriend could have put up with giving our child away after seeing him or her.)

When we got into the clinic they handed me some paperwork.
First breakdown happened here.
I cried, he asked me what was wrong. I tried to tell him but I just couldn't stop crying. He said we should leave, but I felt there was just no other way. I filled out some paperwork. I was in a waiting room with about 10 other girls. Amazingly, no one else really looked sad. Their ages ran from about I'd say 15 to 35. They called my name for an ultrasound, even this didn't feel pleasant. The lady pushed very hard, and was extremely cold when she told me I was about seven weeks and four days along.
Second breakdown on the way up to the general waiting room to sit with my boyfriend. He tried to get me to leave again. They had me read some sort of handbook about the procedure. It *sounded* disgusting. The side effects sounded horrible, but they *claim* there is only a one percent chance. We talked to the parents of some other people who were going through with an abortion. It seemed like their parents were forcing them to do it, because the boyfriend didn't seem to hot on the idea. They called me for "consoling". Which wasen't comforting, or even NICE. She basically just asked me if I was raped, whose decision was this (I said ours, meaning me and my boyfriend- she didn't like that and insisted it must be MINE and MINE alone..odd.) then she just had me sign a bunch of papers saying I understood all the ricks (a long list of them, most involiving infetility.) Then I went to get my blood tested. Then more sitting, and talking to the other couples parents. They tried to tell us it was the best decision. They had already given me some sort of pill that made my stomach hurt and made me feel lightheaded. Then they called my name. My boyfriend asked me again if I wanted to leave, hugged me and kissed me.

They had me take off only my pants and undergarments, and put on this white sheet. They called my name really quickly, only about 3 minutes of wiating with other girls in "sheet dresses."

They gave me a shot that made me instantly "relaxed". But I wasn't relaxed. I just felt lightheaded and heavy. I was really scared, and crying. The nurse didn't comfort me. She asked me some questions about school or something, then they started the procedure- "vacum asparation." They tried to tell me before it wouldn't hurt "too bad." One of the many lies. It hurt horribly. But the physical pain wasn't as bad as what I was doing in my eyes, even though the cramping was so severe I nearly screamed (and they claimed NO ONE had ever screamed.) Their drugs failed to keep me from thinking about it. I don't think even being asleep could have prevented that. It didn't take very long. 4 minutes maybe. The "nice" nurse didn't even let me use a wheelchair. I walked down to a recovery room.

They tried to give me some pretzels and sprite. No thanks. The girl from upstairs with the forceful parents is here, but she's already dressed and crying horribly. The nurse asks her if she's alright- but doens't seem sincre at all. I start to cry then, and almost throw up.

After about 15 minutes they send my boyfriend down. We leave. 5 minutes in the car and he starts to cry. I've never seen him cry, because he never tries. We didn't really talk on the way home.

I was hazy the whole day. I hurt. They gave me some sort of medicine for pain, but I didn't want it. I didn't think it was fair to take it since my baby felt so much ( I don't care if the baby "cant" feel pain.. the baby's soul can.) I took the antibiotics only because my boyfriend made me, at this point I didn't care about infection.

I should have never made the decision I did. I know that there was no other way, but I honestly think I would have rather lived on the cold streets with my boyfriend and risked it. I regret it horribly. I cry a lot, and I don't sleep. My boyfriend and I named our baby, because he wanted too. Since we would have wanted to be a boy we named him Christian. We wrote our baby letters about how sorry we were, how we know it was the wrong decision, how we will never make that mistake again. But nothing can ease the pain of the loss. Nothing can ease the pain of what I did- and honestly, I don't think I want it too. I will never forgive myself, so therefore- God shouldn't either, in my eyes. I hope that I can have kids again someday, that this won't effect me physically from the procedure, and that even though I am horrible- that God chooses to give me another chance with children. If not, my boyfriend and I both understand.

If ever faced with this decision, please follow your heart. Many of you will say that you would never do it, and many wouldn't- but some would if they didn't believe they had another option. I know there were no other options, but we both wanted our baby. It is hard living with regret and sadness. But this is the price to pay.

If anyone ever comes to you asking for advice, please tell them no matter what- don't do it. They clinic may tell you most people feel "relief" I have felt no relief, I never will. The procedure will most likely hurt, but the real hurt is the burden of murder on your heart.

It weighs my heart heavily.

My apologies and my love to my baby mean nothing. My regret means nothing. It is too late for that, and I knowingly accept and understand what I have done- but will never forgive myself.

God Bless,
Kelly

[thunderous_funker]

I can't shake the feeling the most important lesson to be learned from this story is that some families are horribly dysfunctional and nothing compounds crippling guilt and self-loathing like a belief in a vengeful and petty god.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I can't shake the feeling the most important lesson to be learned from this story is that some families are horribly dysfunctional and nothing compounds crippling guilt and self-loathing like a belief in a vengeful and petty god.

Thank goodness my God isn't vengeful or petty. My God has forgiven me of my sins and transgressions and I'm "holy and blameless in His sight."

It's a shame she doesn't understand this so that her relationship could be restored.

Maury

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Thank goodness my God isn't vengeful or petty. My God has forgiven me of my sins and transgressions and I'm "holy and blameless in His sight."

It's a shame she doesn't understand this so that her relationship could be restored.

Maury

People who love themselves envision a loving god. People who hate themselves envision a fearsome god of judgement.

I'm glad you learned to love yourself. Honestly. Its probably the most important thing that any human should learn.

What truly saddens me about this story is that not only did her parents not provide an environment where this girl could love herself, they reinforced her own self-loathing to a degree that might never be overcome.

[mikellanes]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
It's a shame she doesn't understand this so that her relationship could be restored.

I agree that if that is what she chooses to believe in she should understand the aspect of repentance and forgiveness and learn to slowly release the guilt.

They obviously didn't want to make this decision and I hope the story helps others learn to grow a spine and stand up for their choices.

The parents in this story disgust me, it is a hard thing being a parent, but one of the earliest things you SHOULD learn is that you GUIDE your children to make decisions, decisions for themselves, even if you don't agree with them, you can guide them to see why, but you NEED to let them choose and make the good and bad choices for themselves. The worst thing a parent can do is be the bearer of guilt on a child. Whether the child wants to admit it or not, parents are respected and admired and this plays deep in to they psyche of the child.

When you mix this 'guilt' with the child's own moral guild it is very traumatic and unnecessary.

Also, the fact that the mother is 'not in her life' speaks wonders of the great parenting job that happened here.

[AKcrab]

Those two children have years and years to procreate, If they are even together in a few years. If they aren't even financially set enough to get married they have no way to support a child.

[demograph68]

What do you expect when teenagers are having sex? Either way, it's going to happen to someone. Abortion is a viable option when their is nothing else. It seems that she put a lot of thought into it as well as considering adoption. I think she made the right choice.

[docbud]

This story/letter has been around for years.

I received two e-mails with the same story this weekend. But the girl's name was different.

And I remember this story/confession from a few years back. Every couple of years it recirculates and makes the rounds.....

d

[Wiskedjak]

This story is indeed very sad. What's sadder is that some people within the pro-life camp create many similar stories, these 100% fiction, in an effort to scare people away from abortion. The real tragedy is that these fictional stories throw doubt onto the legitimate ones.

Abortion is a horrible thing and nobody should have to experience it. Passing fictitious stories off as truth only further devalues the lives lost and the experiences of those who truly had to make such decisions.

[vmarks]

So, then how about a real story, with a happier ending-

http://www.nd.edu/~observer/11041999/News/0.html

The rights of unborn babies depend on the generation of today and the guidance of God, according to Dawn Kober, who calls herself an "abortion survivor."


"You are the country's future. It is exciting to me that you are the generation that will make a difference," Kober said in a lecture sponsored by Notre Dame Right to Life. "Your stand on abortion does make a difference, but no matter what cause we stand for or how noble our intentions are, we can't do it without the grace of God."


Kober's stance on abortion arose out of very personal circumstances. At the age of 21, Kober attended a Pro-Choice rally at the urging of a co-worker.


"To me at that time, abortion did not signify the death of a baby. No one helped me to understand what it is � that it is the murder of a baby and not a solution," she said.


Upon her arrival back home from the march, Kober was "excited to watch the news coverage. I figured that from my father's `flower-child' background that he would be proud of me for taking a stand."


However, with a soberness that she had never before seen, Kober described how her father proceeded to explain that he and her birth mother were just 19 and 20 when her mother became pregnant. "A baby did not fit into the dreamscape of her life," Kober said.


At that time, abortion was illegal and expensive. It took her father 11 weeks to find the necessary $500 and a clinic. After the short procedure, Kober's father and birth mother were told to wait 48 hours for the process to be complete, but "to God's credit and absolutely none other the abortion failed," she said. "Where abortion is concerned, I am a very rare case."


On February 7, 1968, Kober was born a healthy 7- pound girl without a trace of injury from the attempted abortion. Eleven months later, Kober's mother abandoned her and her father, leaving Kober with "low self-esteem, fear of rejection and avoidance of conflict," she said.


When she finally reconnected with her mother at the age of 21 due to a chance encounter, Kober said they failed to find a common bond.


"I wanted her to think that I was very sophisticated and I was expecting to feel that way. No matter how hard I tried to be 21, it was as if all of my hurt and resentment and bitterness came on me. I felt like a wide-eyed little girl," Kober said.


Kober said she draws on her own experiences to inspire herself and others.


"I would love to see a law come into effect where women who are in for an abortion be required to hear their baby's heartbeat before the procedure is carried out," she said. "I speak to you tonight on behalf of all unborn Dawns who would have been our future generation."

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by vmarks:
"I would love to see a law come into effect where women who are in for an abortion be required to hear their baby's heartbeat before the procedure is carried out," she said.

I'd agree with this. Perhaps the pro-life community will learn to rely more on the real stories rather than the sensationalized fictitious ones

[macintologist]

Originally posted by docbud:
This story/letter has been around for years.

I received two e-mails with the same story this weekend. But the girl's name was different.

And I remember this story/confession from a few years back. Every couple of years it recirculates and makes the rounds.....

d

Google the text. The only other result you'll get is Youth on the rock, the forum where I found this story. It ain't on snopes or anything else

[Athens]

I only see one problem with Abortion in the US which is different then here. And its hard to find the stats to back up my claim because ever site has different stats for the same years, even worse for American stats. But because medical care is a business in the US im pretty sure more woman are pressured into getting abortions because that�s how the doctors and clinics that specialize in that make there living. On the other hand with a national medical system generally the choice usually really does end up being the families because the pressure to make money isn�t there. I did noticed something when I was looking for stats to go with this post. And im sorry for you Canadian Bashers that im using Canadian stats, it was just easier for me to find. Before abortion clinics the rate of abortions from 1980 to now has stayed at about the same between 60 and 70 000 per year. But when private clinics got into the picture it went from 3000 per year from the first clinics in 1980 to 20 000 in 1990 and is now at 40 000 and still climbing. Why is it that the hospital rate stays steady and a clinics its rising. Sure there are more new clinics then hospitals but I believe its because clinics are focused on the BUSINESS. I am a believer of medical abortion, something that takes a family doctor to say is needed and the operation done only in a hospital. As long as a family doctor has nothing to gain from it chances are the decision will be a right one. Take a clinic they have everything to gain to do a abortion because that�s what they are there for. We need to get ride of abortion clinics and just leave it to the hospitals to do. Her story is horrible and how she describes the entire ordeal is just heartless and she must be emotionally scared bad.

Of course with both parents kicking them out and no social services they could take advantage of they didn't have much options and in that case it was parents pushing it. But over all the high rates are due to clinics.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by vmarks:
"I would love to see a law come into effect where women who are in for an abortion be required to hear their baby's heartbeat before the procedure is carried out," she said. "I speak to you tonight on behalf of all unborn Dawns who would have been our future generation."

And they think a heartbeat would make someone realize what?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by zerostar:
And they think a heartbeat would make someone realize what?

My guess would be, 60% of the time, yes.

[budster101]

Originally posted by zerostar:
And they think a heartbeat would make someone realize what?

I don't know. Let me give that a few more milliseconds thought than you did...

There is something ALIVE inside of her, and it has a heartbeat like hers, and the sperm doner idiot who helped her CREATE the life she is now about to tear apart, limb from limb.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by zerostar:
And they think a heartbeat would make someone realize what?

I believe it would serve to drive home the seriousness of the situation. If it doesn't change the person's mind on getting an abortion, I think it would certainly cause some to take greater steps to avoid getting pregnant again if they don't wish to have children yet.

I'm not 100% opposed to abortion. I think it should be allowed in extreme circumstances (mother's life in danger) and perhaps as a one time only option (one abortion per woman, outside of extreme circumstances)

[Athens]

Originally posted by zerostar:
And they think a heartbeat would make someone realize what?

The question is what would a heartbeat do to the doctors doing the abortion, perhaps they dont want to do this because it would make there job that much harder. Imagine having to listen to 20 babys hearts every day before you kill them. And the extra tramma of the parents crying over it too. I bet it would affect alot of abortion doctors as much as the parents.

[sketch]

It's heartbreaking, yes, and abortion is terrible, but teenagers have to realize that there is no such thing as 'safe' sex. Only 'safer' sex. If you're old enouhg to do it, you're old enough for the consequences.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Athens:
The question is what would a heartbeat do to the doctors doing the abortion, perhaps they dont want to do this because it would make there job that much harder. Imagine having to listen to 20 babys hearts every day before you kill them. And the extra tramma of the parents crying over it too. I bet it would affect alot of abortion doctors as much as the parents.

Maury

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Athens:
And the extra tramma of the parents crying over it too.

You should know the doctors hear plenty of crying over the decision, this is a hard decision, you should understand the doctors (as well as me) see the procedure as helpful, as long as it is a thought out and planned decision by the parents.
You don't become an abortion doctor because you want to kill babies. That may be the end result, but as any doctor would tell you the pleasure is in helping people (with a percentage in it for the $$)

Originally posted by Athens:
I bet it would affect alot of abortion doctors as much as the parents.

I kill around 30-40 animals a day, some for other animal's food, some for birth defects, most however are for overpopulation.

These animals have heartbeats, have brain activity and are SURELY alive.
I doubt most here would not have me stop doing this because they 'think its wrong'

Of course there will be a small percentage who think killing them is wrong and it brings a tear to their eye. There will be those who don't care, but think a human's life is more precious.

There are those who think a human life is equal to any other animal (like me) but think being human grants us more intellect and we should have a thought process to our actions. Mistakes happen, this is life, we should learn from them in the end.

I do think abortion should be allowed and have even had use of abortion once in my life. I now have a family and children and do not look back in regret to what I did, we did hear the heart beat and we even named the child. This did not change our decision to have the abortion. And although this was a medically necessary procedure, we were not ready for it and yes, were stupid and all that jazz. I was in my 6th year of school with around 180K in loans piled up, and the mother was diagnosed with colon cancer. I am since graduated (now 10 years) and finally paid all my loans a few years ago, the mother of the child died 1 year after the abortion from the cancer.

Anyway, my point is with a heartbeat and even with brain function I do think abortion is still a viable option. I would however accept a closer deadline, say 6 weeks after conception or so. If you miss your period and do not notice for 3 weeks you have a problem. Sadly, to many the problem will be the child.

If you are on BC that prevents a period you are out of luck, plus the chances of even producing while on these kinds of BC are so rare it might just be a super baby.

Just some random thoughts...

[RAILhead]

Oh no, someone had to go off and say my cat's life is equal to mine.

Meltdown in 3...2...

[zerostar]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Oh no, someone had to go off and say my cat's life is equal to mine.

Sorry if that is insulting to you, I wonder what your cat thinks.

[budster101]

Originally posted by zerostar:
Sorry if that is insulting to you, I wonder what your cat thinks.

I can tell you what his cat thinks, or at least a few possibilities, your guess is as good as m ine...

1. That sux.
2. Bastard, I should have laid on your face last night and suffocated you like the dog wanted me to do.
3. Uhm. What was the question? I'm just a stupid self-indulging-self-centered-animal who only thinks of where I'm going to put my furry ass down, what sort of rodent or bird I can drag through the house, or when I'm going to get my next catnip fix.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by budster101:
I can tell you what his cat thinks, or at least a few possibilities, your guess is as good as m ine...

1. That sux.
2. Bastard, I should have laid on your face last night and suffocated you like the dog wanted me to do.
3. Uhm. What was the question? I'm just a stupid self-indulging-self-centered-animal who only thinks of where I'm going to put my furry ass down, what sort of rodent or bird I can drag through the house, or when I'm going to get my next catnip fix.

That pretty much nails it -- thanks for saving me the time.

And FWIW, I don't there's anyone on this board that knows me and doesn't know I adore my fat tabby, Uno Catpuccino. But between him and my wife, niece, sister or a stranger -- I'll my darndest to save him, but human life before animal life. Sorry.

Maury

[zerostar]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
I'll my darndest to save him, but human life before animal life. Sorry.

I don't think anyone was implying you should put human life over another animal(s) life. You belong to the group 'human' and therefore think fondly of your group over others.

Other animal groups put themselves first too, this is the way it works. That wasn't my point, my point was all animals will put their own group first, I don't expect different from many people.

As for me? I'd say your life is about equal, you being a human makes little difference to me, perhaps since humans can think more logically they should be held to a higher standard in my book. Most people would feel the same if you were an 'evil' person. Such as if you burned a bag of puppies to death they would have your life because of the fact they value the animals lives.

I don't need you to be 'evil' to value you both equal.

[finboy]

Originally posted by Athens:
But over all the high rates are due to clinics.

How long is the wait in the public system? A week? Two weeks? Private clinics aren't driving it, I'd bet.

[finboy]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
Oh no, someone had to go off and say my cat's life is equal to mine.

Meltdown in 3...2...

Actually, I'd say that the CAT'S life is MORE IMPORTANT than your life, in some ways. After all, the cat can't fend for itself -- it's dependent upon you. And you're obligated to it, by virtue of deciding to keep it way back when.

Accepting abortion (for the other side on here) means setting the value of one human life above another. I don't have a problem with that, but I'd imagine that lots of right-to-abortion types would NEVER say that one human was worth more than another. Although they may be willing to protect the environment, animals, snail darters, etc. they'd never accept a heirarchy of mankind.

Personally, I think my baby son's life is more important than EVERYONE ELSE'S combined, but that's just me.

[mitchell_pgh]

I find is sad that people that don't have children generally say that once they do have children "the fun is over." That's not true.

But if you ask those that have children if they would trade it, just about all of them say no.

[Cody Dawg]

I cannot imagine not having our children. Yes, they sure are expensive. Yes, they sure do restrict freedom and impulsive choices. Yes, they sure can be a downer (today my 4-year old wrote all over our nice white leather furniture with markers and fed the dog an entire bag of Cheetos), but at the end of the day, they have such joy in their eyes and hearts and they are such pure and good spirits that it is impossible to not be thankful for them every single day.

I don't know about that story. It's a generic story that any one of millions of girls could have authored.

It's also a cautionary tale about the merits of abstinence and birth control.

[von Wrangell]

Those of you who support the "heartbeat test" should know that you don't find any heartbeat until the 9th to 12th week. Which is all too close to the respected limit of aborting foetuses before the end of the first trimester. There is a reason anti-abortionists want a law like that to take effect.


oh, and hi. I'm new here.

[dampeoples]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I find is sad that people that don't have children generally say that once they do have children "the fun is over." That's not true.

But if you ask those that have children if they would trade it, just about all of them say no.

Exactly.

These stories, and a lot of the arguments are ********. Someone said above that they might be financially stable enough to get married, but not have a child? What? That's a selfish thought if I ever heard one.

That being said, I suport abortion. Listening to the Heart beat before it goes down and all. Down and out is down and out, no matter if life is growing in you or not. It's easier to survive without it, than carry it and wait until it can be adopted.

[Cody Dawg]

Those of you who support the "heartbeat test" should know that you don't find any heartbeat until the 9th to 12th week. Which is all too close to the respected limit of aborting foetuses before the end of the first trimester. There is a reason anti-abortionists want a law like that to take effect.

That's so not true. I have an ultrasound CD which shows my baby's heart beating at about 6 weeks.

*Perhaps one day before conception: The woman ovulates and produces one mature ovum (egg cell). It travels down one of her fallopian tubes towards her uterus. It is about 1/100" in diameter, and is barely visible to the naked eye. It also considered by most of the public to be a form of human life, for the above reasons. But it is not actually a living organism. It has been described as an "inert globule of organic matter." It does carry a cargo of human DNA.

* At conception: One very lucky spermatozoon out of hundreds of millions ejaculated by the man will penetrate the outside layer of the ovum and fertilize it. The surface of the ovum changes its electrical characteristics and prevents additional sperm from entering. A genetically unique entity is formed shortly thereafter, called a zygote. This is commonly referred to as a "fertilized ovum." However that term is not really valid because the ovum ceases to exist after conception. Half of its 46 chromosomes come from the egg's 23 chromosomes and the other half from the spermatozoon's 23. It has a unique DNA structure, different from that of the ovum and the spermatozoon. The zygote is "...is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life:

1. metabolism,
2. growth,
3. reaction to stimuli, and
4. reproduction." 1

It can reproduce itself through twinning at any time up to about 14 days after conception; this is how identical twins are caused.

Conception is the point that most, or all, pro-life groups and conservative Christians define as the beginning of pregnancy. They also define the start of a human person as occurring at conception. The medical definition of the start of pregnancy is about 10 days later, at implantation. The zygote divides into two cells, called blastomeres. They subdivide once every 12 to 20 hours as the zygote slowly passes down the fallopian tubes.

*About 3 days after conception: The zygote now consists of 16 cells and is called a 16 cell morula (a.k.a. pre-embryo). It has reached the junction of the fallopian tube and the uterus.

*5 days or so after conception: A cavity appears in the center of the morula. The group of cells are now called a blastocyst, has traveled down the fallopian tubes and has started to attach itself to the endometrium, the inside wall of the uterus (a.k.a. womb). The cells in the inside of the blastocyst, called the embryoblast, start forming the embryo. The outer cells, called the trophoblast, start to form the placenta. It continues to be referred to as a pre-embryo.

*9 or 10 days after conception: The blastocyst has fully attached itself to endometrium. Primitive placental blood circulation has begun.

*12 days or so after conception: The blastocyst has started to produce hormones which can be detected in the woman's urine. This is is the event that all (or almost) all pro-choice groups and almost all physicians (who are not conservative Christians) define to be the start of pregnancy. If instructions are followed exactly, a home-pregnancy test may reliably detect pregnancy at this point, or shortly thereafter.

*13 or 14 days after conception: A "primitive streak" appears. It will later develop into the fetus' central nervous system. This is the point at which spontaneous division of the blastocyst -- an event that sometimes generates identical twins -- is not longer possible. The pre-embryo is now referred to as an embryo. It is a very small blob of undifferentiated tissue at this stage of development.

*3 weeks: The embryo is now about 1/12" long, the size of a pencil point. It most closely resembles a worm - long and thin and with a segmented end. Its heart begins to beat about 18 to 21 days after conception. Before this time, the woman might have noticed that her menstrual period is late; she might suspect that she is pregnant and conduct a pregnancy test. If it is an unwanted pregnancy, she might have arranged and carried through with an abortion.

*4 weeks: The embryo is now about 1/5" long. It looks something like a tadpole. The structure that will develop into a head is visible, as is a noticeable tail. The embryo has structures like the gills of a fish in the area that will later develop into a throat.

*5 weeks: Tiny arm and leg buds have formed. Hands with webs between the fingers have formed at the end of the arm buds. Fingerprints are detectable. The face "has a distinctly reptilian aspect."

*6 weeks: The embryo is about 1/2" long. The face has two eyes on the side of its head; the front of the face has "connected slits where the mouth and nose eventually will be."

*7 weeks: The embryo has almost lost its tail. "The face is mammalian but somewhat pig-like." 1 Pain sensors appear. Many conservative Christians believe that the embryo can feel pain. However, the higher functions of the brain have yet to develop, and the pathways to transfer pain signals from the pain sensors to the brain have not developed at this time.

*2 months: The embryo's face resembles that of a primate but is not fully human in appearance. Some of the brain begins to form; this is the "reptilian brain" that will function throughout life. The embryo will respond to prodding, although it has no consciousness at this stage of development. The brain's higher functions do not develop until much later in pregnancy.

*10 weeks: The embryo is now called a fetus. Its face looks human; its gender may be detectable.

*3 months: The fetus is about 3 inches long and weighs about an ounce. Fingernails and bones can be seen. Over 90% of all abortions are performed before this stage.

*4 months: It is 8" long and weighs about a half pound. The fetus' movements may begin to be felt. Its heartbeat can usually be detected.

*5 months/21.8 weeks: 12" long and weighing about a pound, the fetus' has hair on its head. Its movements can be felt. An abortion is usually unavailable at this gestational age because of state and province medical society regulations, except under very unusual circumstances. Half-way through this month, the fetus' lungs may be developed to the point where it would have a chance to live on its own. State laws and medical association regulations generally outlaw abortions beyond 20 or 21 weeks gestation, except under very unusual circumstances.

*6 months/26 weeks: 14" long and almost two pounds. The lungs' bronchioles develop. Interlinking of the brain's neurons begins. The higher functions of the fetal brain turn on for the first time. Some rudimentary brain waves can be detected. The fetus will be able to feel pain for the first time. It will be conscious of its surroundings.

*7 months: 16" long and weighing about three pounds. Regular brain waves are detectable which are similar to those in adults.

*8 months: 18" long and weighing about 5 pounds.

*9 months: 20" long and with an average weight of 7 pounds, a full-term fetus' is typically born about this time.

[Athens]

Originally posted by zerostar:
You should know the doctors hear plenty of crying over the decision, this is a hard decision, you should understand the doctors (as well as me) see the procedure as helpful, as long as it is a thought out and planned decision by the parents.
You don't become an abortion doctor because you want to kill babies. That may be the end result, but as any doctor would tell you the pleasure is in helping people (with a percentage in it for the $$)



I kill around 30-40 animals a day, some for other animal's food, some for birth defects, most however are for overpopulation.

These animals have heartbeats, have brain activity and are SURELY alive.
I doubt most here would not have me stop doing this because they 'think its wrong'

Of course there will be a small percentage who think killing them is wrong and it brings a tear to their eye. There will be those who don't care, but think a human's life is more precious.

There are those who think a human life is equal to any other animal (like me) but think being human grants us more intellect and we should have a thought process to our actions. Mistakes happen, this is life, we should learn from them in the end.

I do think abortion should be allowed and have even had use of abortion once in my life. I now have a family and children and do not look back in regret to what I did, we did hear the heart beat and we even named the child. This did not change our decision to have the abortion. And although this was a medically necessary procedure, we were not ready for it and yes, were stupid and all that jazz. I was in my 6th year of school with around 180K in loans piled up, and the mother was diagnosed with colon cancer. I am since graduated (now 10 years) and finally paid all my loans a few years ago, the mother of the child died 1 year after the abortion from the cancer.

Anyway, my point is with a heartbeat and even with brain function I do think abortion is still a viable option. I would however accept a closer deadline, say 6 weeks after conception or so. If you miss your period and do not notice for 3 weeks you have a problem. Sadly, to many the problem will be the child.

If you are on BC that prevents a period you are out of luck, plus the chances of even producing while on these kinds of BC are so rare it might just be a super baby.

Just some random thoughts...

Im fore abortion, im against making it a business. We should do away with Abortion Clinics and only have it done in the hospitals. Family doctors should be the ones making that a option for there patients and setting it up for there patients. That actually procedure should be done in a hospital. As long as a family doctor has nothing to gain from it then we shouldnt see people pressured into it. Abortion clinics on the other hand will pressure people into it, make them feel its all right, and do what they need to do to get the woman to abort because its there business. Its there income. Do away with abortion clinics and im sure the numbers will drop. Canadian stats show that since 1980 the abortion rates in hospitals have been around 60 to 70 000 per year which is a freaking alot. But since Abortion clinics started in the 80s the numbers have grown every year and is now almost the same amount as the hospitals. Why is it hospitals stay at a steady rate and abortion clinics keep going up? Because its a business to for the clinics. The US would prob have different stats because in the US hospitals are also a business. I dont know a good place to find good US stats so im using Canadians stats. But take the business out of it and we should see a decress.

[Athens]

Originally posted by finboy:
How long is the wait in the public system? A week? Two weeks? Private clinics aren't driving it, I'd bet.

The waits for abortions are just a few days to a week on average which I think is GOOOOOD because it gives the woman more time to think about it. If you can just go in hour later be done you didn't have any time to think about what you where doing.

[dampeoples]

Originally posted by Athens:
The waits for abortions are just a few days to a week on average which I think is GOOOOOD because it gives the woman more time to think about it. If you can just go in hour later be done you didn't have any time to think about what you where doing.

Do you really think that folks just get pregnant today, and go to the clinic tommorow?
Just because the option is considered doesn't make them a heartless, uncaring bitch.

[zerostar]

Originally posted by Athens:
The US would prob have different stats because in the US hospitals are also a business. I dont know a good place to find good US stats so im using Canadians stats. But take the business out of it and we should see a decress.

There is no way to 'take the business out of it' for the US with the current health care system.

I must say I am glad to see some level headed people posting, it is somewhat refreshing for a change.

[Athens]

Originally posted by dampeoples:
Do you really think that folks just get pregnant today, and go to the clinic tommorow?
Just because the option is considered doesn't make them a heartless, uncaring bitch.

what the hell are you talking about?

[von Wrangell]

Originally posted by Cody Dawg:
That's so not true. I have an ultrasound CD which shows my baby's heart beating at about 6 weeks.

There are of course exceptions. But the fact is that in most cases you can't hear the heart even at the 7th week.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/refcap/803.html

Not the most professional link but I can't be arsed search through my books on Human Development to quote from.

And they also state that you'll hear the heart for the first time at 11 weeks. Which is normal.

http://www.babycentre.co.uk/refcap/801.html

And like I said. At that time you are awfully close to it being too late to have an abortion.