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ravenz · 11:17 PM

I went to my local Apple Store (Knox Street - Dallas, TX) to get my son's iPod Shuffle repaired. While there, I asked about the new Intel iMacs - they had two 17" units in stock, and planned to use them as floor units. I went up to the cashier and was able to get one, surprisingly. I guess there was a disconnect with the staff and I was lucky.

I spent this morning migrating everything from my kids' eMac and testing Universal Binaries /Rosetta performance for my software developer friends.

Some quick notes:

* Lack of Classic support doesn't bother me, but a whole bunch of educational software for my kids is now useless.

* Many of the tests I performed for friends with Universal Binaries failed. I passed Console logs back and forth, and we were able to fix issues. In one case, we could not proceed and it will require more testing time.

* Rosetta performance is great. I couldn't tell the different in most cases.

* XBench tests were performed and uploaded, but I don't trust the results. The numbers looked worse than a first generation G4 PowerBook. Something in XBench is not optimized for Intel. I used the Universal Binary version.

* I had to beg my kids to get off the computer - PhotoBooth and ComicLife (both installed by default) were very popular with the young ones.

Please ask away if you have any questions or want me to test anything.

mduell · Jan 14, 2006, 10:29 PM

Can you run the Photoshop benchmark from the PowerMac forum?

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Can you run the Photoshop benchmark from the PowerMac forum?

Can I download a Photoshop Demo from Adobe? I do not own a copy.

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Can I download a Photoshop Demo from Adobe? I do not own a copy.

Found the demo link on Adobe - 300MB. Let me go start the download process.

Robert25 · Jan 14, 2006, 10:44 PM

Okay, this is a seriously superficial question.

What does booting up look/sound like? Is it the gray Apple logo and familiar chime we have come to know and love, or is there a noticeable difference?

By the way, congrats on your new iMac!

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Robert25

Okay, this is a seriously superficial question.

What does booting up look/sound like? Is it the gray Apple logo and familiar chime we have come to know and love, or is there a noticeable difference?

By the way, congrats on your new iMac!

Same old boot chime (this seemed like the perfect opportunity for Apple to update the boot chime), same grey Apple. The biggest change is boot time. I'll reboot in a bit (after getting Photoshop demo) and time the total from sound to login window. It seems much faster.

Robert25 · 11:05 PM

That's good to know. There were rumors that Apple was going to change the boot chime, but those were apparently incorrect.

To tell the truth, I was afraid booting up would look like my work computer! That fear was probably irrational, but aren't most?

Good news on start up time. My 1.8 (SP) G5 can go from 0 to ready in 35-45 seconds, so I have no complaints there. However, my work computer (a Compaq) boots in roughly 2 minutes as does my Pismo PowerBook G3 (now 6 years old).

Thanks for the quick response!

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Same old boot chime (this seemed like the perfect opportunity for Apple to update the boot chime), same grey Apple. The biggest change is boot time. I'll reboot in a bit (after getting Photoshop demo) and time the total from sound to login window. It seems much faster.

Boot Time!

From start of boot chime to login window:

#1: 18.91 seconds
#2: 17.74 seconds
#3: 17.68 seconds

Not sure how this compares to other Macs, but it seems much faster.

Mac OS X 10.4.4
Build 8G1165
(Serial Numbers are starting with W86)
1.83 GHz Intel Core Duo
512 MB DDR2 SDRAM

ero2 · Jan 14, 2006, 11:05 PM

I guess I have a few questions if you don't mind. I have placed an order for the macbookpro, so since my questions are about software hopefully you can help?

I am worried about running photoshop as well, so as soon as you get those numbers it will help me decide whether to cancel my order or not.

Do programs running under rosetta still feel faster? Since people say you won't notice a difference, are emulated programs just like they were on your old mac, or faster even though in emulation?

Any obvious observations we should know about, things that work and don't work? Does setup assistant still tarnsfer programs, music, photos etc?

Nebrie · Jan 14, 2006, 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Boot Time!

From start of boot chime to login window:

#1: 18.91 seconds
#2: 17.74 seconds
#3: 17.68 seconds

Not sure how this compares to other Macs, but it seems much faster.

Mac OS X 10.4.4
Build 8G1165
(Serial Numbers are starting with W86)
1.83 GHz Intel Core Duo
512 MB DDR2 SDRAM

That seems to be around the time for my DP 2ghz PM

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

Can you run the Photoshop benchmark from the PowerMac forum?

1:05 (65 seconds) with Photoshop CS2 (v9) running through Rosetta.

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by ero2

I guess I have a few questions if you don't mind. I have placed an order for the macbookpro, so since my questions are about software hopefully you can help?

I am worried about running photoshop as well, so as soon as you get those numbers it will help me decide whether to cancel my order or not.

Do programs running under rosetta still feel faster? Since people say you won't notice a difference, are emulated programs just like they were on your old mac, or faster even though in emulation?

Any obvious observations we should know about, things that work and don't work? Does setup assistant still tarnsfer programs, music, photos etc?

Rosetta doesn't seem slow. Even loading Photoshop wasn't too bad. I didn't feel like I was waiting, really.

Rosetta applications on this iMac are faster than PowerPC apps on my Powerbook G4 1.25GHz. Not that it means much.

I don't understand the setup assistant question. Can you clarify?

ero2 · Jan 14, 2006, 11:18 PM

normally when you buy a new mac it asks if you want to transfer blah blah to your new mac, you say yes and it says plug in your new computer and it offers to transfer programs, itunes music, and pictures from your old mac to your new mac automatically. I looked up other times and it says 1.67 GHZ Powerbook with 1gig of ram is 147 secs, so this seems good, how much ram doy uo have? I can't wait to see how fast it is once photoshop is native.

So, the universal binaries you tried all failed? I am curious because it looks like on versiontracker there is a lot of programs already universal, but if they all fail, then what's the point LOL.

You are making me more excited and less likely to cancel my MacBookPro order by the minte, THANKS for volunteering to answer questions for all of us!

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Rosetta doesn't seem slow. Even loading Photoshop wasn't too bad. I didn't feel like I was waiting, really.

18 seconds for Photoshop CS2 to load through Rosetta (the same amount of time it takes to boot the iMac, coincidentally).

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by ero2

normally when you buy a new mac it asks if you want to transfer blah blah to your new mac, you say yes and it says plug in your new computer and it offers to transfer programs, itunes music, and pictures from your old mac to your new mac automatically. I looked up other times and it says 1.67 GHZ Powerbook with 1gig of ram is 147 secs, so this seems good, how much ram doy uo have? I can't wait to see how fast it is once photoshop is native.

So, the universal binaries you tried all failed? I am curious because it looks like on versiontracker there is a lot of programs already universal, but if they all fail, then what's the point LOL.

You are making me more excited and less likely to cancel my MacBookPro order by the minte, THANKS for volunteering to answer questions for all of us!

I have the standard 512MB - going to order more on Tuesday.

I did not do the migration through the setup assistant. I did this process manually.

Some of the Universal Binaries failed. Graphic Converter did not. My friends who are developers sent test Universal Binaries and I had probems with virtually all of them on the first try, actually.

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by ero2

I looked up other times and it says 1.67 GHZ Powerbook with 1gig of ram is 147 secs, so this seems good

And this is through Rosetta (65 seconds). Think of the improvement once Adobe releases a Universal Binary of Photoshop!

leery · Jan 14, 2006, 11:38 PM

Thanks so much for all this info, ravenz! I was about to order a G5 iMac on Tuesday, but the Apple online store was closed. When it reopened I had to rethink everything. But one concern of mine is color depth on the iMac display. Is it 6-bit or 8-bit? I'm not sure how you'd test, other than with a side-by-side comparison or knowing what to look for. (I think it's the same display as the G5 models, if anyone else wants to chime in.)

Those photoshop numbers are good news.

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by leery

Thanks so much for all this info, ravenz! I was about to order a G5 iMac on Tuesday, but the Apple online store was closed. When it reopened I had to rethink everything. But one concern of mine is color depth on the iMac display. Is it 6-bit or 8-bit? I'm not sure how you'd test, other than with a side-by-side comparison or knowing what to look for. (I think it's the same display as the G5 models, if anyone else wants to chime in.)

Those photoshop numbers are good news.

Depth:32-bit Color (from System Profiler)

Resolution max is 1440x900 with millions of colors.

Nebrie · Jan 14, 2006, 11:51 PM

Do you have any OS X games of any type? Will they run? (if so how fast)

ravenz · Jan 14, 2006, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Nebrie

Do you have any OS X games of any type? Will they run? (if so how fast)

I was playing World of Warcraft - worked fine (although Ironforge is still a lag prison). WoW Universal Binary will be out in two weeks, and I have high hopes for that.

t_hah · Jan 15, 2006, 12:37 AM

Do you have a link to your XBench tests? The numbers will prbably be off, because XBench is probably not optimized for the Intel systems, yet.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 12:41 AM

Originally Posted by t_hah

Do you have a link to your XBench tests? The numbers will prbably be off, because XBench is probably not optimized for the Intel systems, yet.

http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc2=151222

jjlannoo · Jan 15, 2006, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by ravenz

Boot Time!

From start of boot chime to login window:

#1: 18.91 seconds
#2: 17.74 seconds
#3: 17.68 seconds

Not sure how this compares to other Macs, but it seems much faster.

Mac OS X 10.4.4
Build 8G1165
(Serial Numbers are starting with W86)
1.83 GHz Intel Core Duo
512 MB DDR2 SDRAM

That boots 15-20 seconds faster then my 2.1GHz G5

cool

Douglashh · Jan 15, 2006, 02:01 AM

Do you happen to have AppleWorks on the new iMac? If so, how does it seem? Faster, slower any noticeable difference?

Thanks,
Doug

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Douglashh

Do you happen to have AppleWorks on the new iMac? If so, how does it seem? Faster, slower any noticeable difference?

Thanks,
Doug

Sorry, no AppleWorks.

Brad5689 · Jan 15, 2006, 02:13 AM

just one question which is probably dumd but when you minimize program and folder windows does it still have the same slurp look to it when it drops down to the bottom right?

HouseSold · Jan 15, 2006, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by jjlannoo

That boots 15-20 seconds faster then my 2.1GHz G5

cool

With boot time like 20 seconds, most all of us will shut down overnite, instead of sleep....zzzzzz

Ravenz.....question

After your iMac Duo is on and being used for an hour or more (working.....more like coasting now

) what does the temperature feel like on the back of the case and in front below the display. (my kids call that front, the forehead)

The fan sounds on start up and after running for awhile.....how quiet are they in an absolute quiet setting.ie. late at night, no TV, iTunes or family sounds.
If you have ever heard the G5 iMacs, by chance, how does the fan sound compare.

I'm hoping they're not the same or much quieter. Out of 5 G5 iMacs here, there are 5 degrees of quiet or noise, from inaudible to buzzing sounds, very inconsistent AND annoying.

Thanks alot and much enjoyment for you.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Brad5689

just one question which is probably dumd but when you minimize program and folder windows does it still have the same slurp look to it when it drops down to the bottom right?

Yes. Same animated effects.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by HouseSold

With boot time like 20 seconds, most all of us will shut down overnite, instead of sleep....zzzzzz

Ravenz.....question

After your iMac Duo is on and being used for an hour or more (working.....more like coasting now

) what does the temperature feel like on the back of the case and in front below the display. (my kids call that front, the forehead)

The fan sounds on start up and after running for awhile.....how quiet are they in an absolute quiet setting.ie. late at night, no TV, iTunes or family sounds.
If you have ever heard the G5 iMacs, by chance, how does the fan sound compare.

I'm hoping they're not the same or much quieter. Out of 5 G5 iMacs here, there are 5 degrees of quiet or noise, from inaudible to buzzing sounds, very inconsistent AND annoying.

Thanks alot and much enjoyment for you.

Case heat: Almost none. Very cool.

Fan: It hasn't turned on yet in constant use all day. This room is now so quiet compared by my eMac.

ero2 · Jan 15, 2006, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by ravenz

http://db.xbench.com/merge.xhtml?doc2=151222

how do these xbench scores compare? Don't remember what my pbook scored, and it's gone and sold, so curious how it compares with other pms etc?

HouseSold · Jan 15, 2006, 03:00 AM

Raven,

Thanks for the reply. For sure your iMac will whisper compared to the eMac.

When you first start up,.... the fan sound, sounds like a hum, a whirring, a shhhhh sound or....

This from sitting in front of the display at arms length, your interpretation trying to analyze and compare and describe. I know there's excitement in the air, but this is important.

Thanks again,

Macadvo · Jan 15, 2006, 03:12 AM

Man you've just made me even more impatient for Apple to deliver my 20 inch iMac Core Duo.....

"Estimated shipped by Date: 23rd January"

HURRY UP ALREADY!

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by HouseSold

Raven,

Thanks for the reply. For sure your iMac will whisper compared to the eMac.

When you first start up,.... the fan sound, sounds like a hum, a whirring, a shhhhh sound or....

This from sitting in front of the display at arms length, your interpretation trying to analyze and compare and describe. I know there's excitement in the air, but this is important.

Thanks again,

It's somewhat a whoosh sound, but after it starts up, the fan goes silent. The unit is super quiet.

HattoriHanzo · Jan 15, 2006, 03:42 AM

The test from a MacRumors user using CS2 under Rosetta was 1m5s - which is great as his 1.9g5 did it in 1m50s running natively - imagine what that will do it when its native!

swatson · Jan 15, 2006, 03:43 AM

do you have copy of windows xp laying around? try installing it? Or copy of windows vista (beta) or server 2003? maybe install it on an external hard drive? partition?

- and yes all of you, I know about the efi, and bios junk. But EFI may have legacy support for bios. Just want ravenz to give it a shot. ya never know.

thnks, and way cool on being the first on the block...

HouseSold · Jan 15, 2006, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by HattoriHanzo

The test from a MacRumors user using CS2 under Rosetta was 1m5s - which is great as his 1.9g5 did it in 1m50s running natively - imagine what that will do it when its native!

The iMacIntel speeds are sounding like the old souped up car days.

Just imagine when everone's familiar with the software and tweaks to the hardware (growing pains) what a great platform this will be.

Really, the best of Both worlds. We all benefit.

ero2 · Jan 15, 2006, 03:52 AM

Originally Posted by HouseSold

The iMacIntel speeds are sounding like the old souped up car days.

I for one will be putting a blower and a 4 barrel carb on mine, and once it is native, some NOS

HattoriHanzo · Jan 15, 2006, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by swatson

do you have copy of windows xp laying around? try installing it? Or copy of windows vista (beta) or server 2003? maybe install it on an external hard drive? partition?

- and yes all of you, I know about the efi, and bios junk. But EFI may have legacy support for bios. Just want ravenz to give it a shot. ya never know.

thnks, and way cool on being the first on the block...

The 'word on the street' is that only Windows Media Centre supports efi - im sure there will be a patch though.

If anyone has it - check the C drive for a folder called BOOT - it has a file called efi in it. Others do not (Vista beta has it too apparently)

harrisjamieh · Jan 15, 2006, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by HattoriHanzo

The test from a MacRumors user using CS2 under Rosetta was 1m5s - which is great as his 1.9g5 did it in 1m50s running natively - imagine what that will do it when its native!

So are you saying that even under rosetta, the new iMac running the same photoshop task is almost twice as fast as the 1.9 G5?! Wow!

dazzla · Jan 15, 2006, 06:36 AM

Holy crap, I can't believe that PS under rosetta is faster than the G5s.

harrisjamieh · Jan 15, 2006, 06:36 AM

Oh ye, did you get the 160GB HD, if so, how much of it was used with the default config, coz when I got my iMac G5, I only had about 130GB available, which I thought was absurd

heesey1010 · Jan 15, 2006, 11:02 AM

Great to know about load times, but has anyone mentioned filter times??

LagunaSol · Jan 15, 2006, 11:43 AM

OK, so here's the real question: have you tried booting Windows from an external drive? This is the only mystery that needs to be solved before I place my order. I'm still dependent on a couple of Windows apps, so before I ditch my dual G4 + PC combo, I need to know if there's any way to run Windows apps.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by swatson

do you have copy of windows xp laying around? try installing it? Or copy of windows vista (beta) or server 2003? maybe install it on an external hard drive? partition?

- and yes all of you, I know about the efi, and bios junk. But EFI may have legacy support for bios. Just want ravenz to give it a shot. ya never know.

thnks, and way cool on being the first on the block...

I have Windows XP at the office. I'll go get it today or tomorrow. However, I don't suspect it will work. I think we'll be dependent upon VMWare in the end.

Pierre B. · Jan 15, 2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by LagunaSol

OK, so here's the real question: have you tried booting Windows from an external drive? This is the only mystery that needs to be solved before I place my order.

I don't think it will work. The new iMac has EFI, not supported in Windows (only in the 64-bit version I hear, but then the Intel iMac is 32-bit). So, don't expect a quick solution to this. Vista should have less trouble, in principle at least.

ravenz · Jan 15, 2006, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I have Windows XP at the office. I'll go get it today or tomorrow. However, I don't suspect it will work. I think we'll be dependent upon VMWare in the end.

I found my Windows 98 CD - that was a total failure (as expected), both from booting with C key and from Option menu on reboot.

I'm going down to my office right now to get Windows XP, Ubuntu, and SUSE CDs. We'll see if that is any better.

boombashi · Jan 15, 2006, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I found my Windows 98 CD - that was a total failure (as expected), both from booting with C key and from Option menu on reboot.

I'm going down to my office right now to get Windows XP, Ubuntu, and SUSE CDs. We'll see if that is any better.

That won't work my friend, you can't boot Windows off of a CD because it sux...you need a DOS loader and since there is no standard BIOS (which Windows requires) it's not going to happen anytime soon. I'd let the Uber-Geeks figure that one out...

But your benchmarks are much appreciated, I'd rather see those keep coming. Don't suppose you want to download Macromedia (now Adobe) Studio? I'm curious about Flash and Dreamweaver performance, hopefully it is on par with your other tests

heesey1010 · Jan 15, 2006, 12:43 PM

yes iMac has EFI but it also has a backward compatible legacy module for those OS'es which use BIOS (look around engadget, you'll see an article pertaining to this)

glad to see people are trying this out now

boombashi · Jan 15, 2006, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by heesey1010

yes iMac has EFI but it also has a backward compatible legacy module for those OS'es which use BIOS (look around engadget, you'll see an article pertaining to this)

glad to see people are trying this out now

I've heard a lot of back and forth on all this, it will be interesting to see someone pull this off, and hopefully easily - preferably off an external Firewire Drive. I really don't want to partition my drive and I don't really want any Microsoft Code in my new MB PRO if I can help it.

ravenz · 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by ravenz

I found my Windows 98 CD - that was a total failure (as expected), both from booting with C key and from Option menu on reboot.

I'm going down to my office right now to get Windows XP, Ubuntu, and SUSE CDs. We'll see if that is any better.

Ok, more tests...

I attempted to boot the following operating systems all in three ways, boot with C key, boot with Option key, and attempt to select it from Startup Disk system preferences.

All tests FAILED.

Ubuntu 5.04 Live CD
Ubuntu 5.04 Install CD
Windows XP 2002 Edition Install CD
SUSE Linux 9.3 Professional Install DVD
SUSE Linux 9.3 Professional Install CD
Solaris 10 x86 03/05 Edition Install DVD
Solaris 10 x86 03/05 Edition Install CD
ParitionMagic 8.0 Install CD

The reality is, I'd prefer to run these OS'es in a virtual machine anyway and stay within Mac OS X. I think we're in a holding pattern now until VMWare or a similar solution is updated to support the iMac Intel.