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clock melter · Jan 30, 2003, 10:10 AM

Has the 800 pound gorilla, in the form of Safari, entered the building? With its compact, open source code base, acceptable standards compliance, extensive programming resources, and privileged acess to the GUI, Safari is poised to dominate in the OS X market the way IE dominates in the Windows market.

How can IE, Chimera, OmniWeb, or iCab compete?

xtal · Jan 30, 2003, 10:13 AM

An interesting question. Considering that most people owning Macs are loyal enough to Apple to give the browser (more than) a fair shot. I know I was. I use Safari because I enjoy using it. And I think that my be the case because I downloaded from Apple itself.

I think Safari will make a HUGE dent in the browser spectrum. I wonder how long it will be before new Macs ship with Safari as the only browser choice (barring post-purchase downloads of course).

Adam Betts · Jan 30, 2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by clock melter:
How can IE, Chimera, OmniWeb, or iCab compete?

How can Opera, Mozilla, etc compete with IE on the Windows platform?

Pepi Picklefoot · Jan 30, 2003, 12:38 PM

Is the browser war over? No...it's only begun.

Finally Apple stepped in with a browser that actually works...and works well. It's a fast, lean, webpage rendering machine.

All Apple has done is put the quality bar up a notch. People that can't handle the pressure of putting out quality software (ie Opera) will whine because they don't think they can produce something better. Others like the Omni Group see this as a nice challenge and will give Safari some nice competition (I hope). And then others like the Chimera team aren't too sure what to make of this whole situation.

Apple is merely trying to weed out the weakest (Opera, iCab and IE) and give a challenge to the stronger (OmniWeb, Chimera, Mozilla).

kovacs · Jan 30, 2003, 12:41 PM

Let's hope it's not over yet, things can get really interesting when the omnigroup releases Omniweb 5 and Chimera reaches GM and Microsoft releases IE 6. I hope safari gives the start shot for a new browser war, safari is the best browser at the moment but that doesn't mean it's all over. We will probably see less browsers, Opera has already declared they will stop developing for the mac platform ( bye bye we will not miss this bloated, slow, ugly payware app ) and I don't know if iCab can survive for much longer, the quality of the browsers on the other hand can only increase, if they want to survive they will have to fight back...

CharlesS · Jan 30, 2003, 01:09 PM

Choice == good.

Chimera still uses the Gecko engine rather than KHTML. If you think that there's no one out there that would want to use Gecko, you're nuts.

OmniWeb still is the king in user-interface features. If you don't think their browser will be interesting once their rendering engine is as good as Safari's (because it will *be* Safari's), you are completely flipping insane.

SwarmyCurve · Jan 30, 2003, 02:04 PM

Safari won, give it the gold medal.

Actually, I don't think it could possibly be over until the next big browsers are unveiled. This includes OmniWeb 5, IE 6, and iCab 3 (j/k!)

Mozilla has an ugly text rendering engine, its fast and all, but with Safari you get speed and render quality that takes advantage of OSX. I love Safari, its really incredible... but I would not count out the OmniGroup who probably have a couple tricks up their sleeve for OW5.

Art Vandelay · Jan 30, 2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
OmniWeb still is the king in user-interface features. If you don't think their browser will be interesting once their rendering engine is as good as Safari's (because it will *be* Safari's), you are completely flipping insane.

Actually, it may be Safari's. Omni has not yet committed to it. They have only stated that they are investigating it. Also, they can't do anything with it yet until Apple releases the Safari SDK, which probably won't be until Safari 1.0 is released.

macmike42 · Jan 30, 2003, 03:48 PM

Over? No way. Apple just decided to incite some actual competition. Chimera winced, but immediately continued to forge ahead. OmniGroup is obviously struggling to create yet a third fast, standards-compliant engine, but instead of being bitter they have publically applauded Apple's new browser, and even said they will consider using the engine in their own browser. iCab might not seem like a contender, but it is 68K-compatible, and no other current current browser can claim that, so even it has a niche.

Opera, err... Honestly, I cannot believe Opera Software (or whatever they call themselves) actually has the balls to bitch about Safari. Have they actually used Opera 5 or 6 on OS X? Or did they just say "Yay! It finally compiled and linked without errors, let's call it the final release!"? It's about the only browser that I find to be consistently worse than IE. Clearly they aren't doing so well on the Mac side considering a) they have a Java version of Opera that runs on Windows but not OS X (or any other platform?) and b) they still (wrongly) claim to be the fastest browser on Earth.

No, friends, the browser wars just got some better weapons is all. And everybody but Microsoft benefits.

Peter · Jan 30, 2003, 04:23 PM

hmm this is werid, before Apple released a browser everyone wanted a Apple browser, now that there is one - people begin complaining that it is too good ?!

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Jan 30, 2003, 05:25 PM

Originally posted by clock melter:

How can IE, Chimera, OmniWeb, or iCab compete?

Well Opera is threatening to kill the Mac version (big deal), Chimera said it may end development, and iCab stinks.

Looks like It is just Omniweb, IE and Safari.

Unless Omniweb uses Safari's rendering engine, they are out sooner or later.

I.E. 6 had better blow everyone's mind as Mac users are itching to ditch everything MS.

I hope that once Safari is final Apple makes it the default browser, I love it.

Adam Betts · Jan 30, 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by PeterClark2002:
hmm this is werid, before Apple released a browser everyone wanted a Apple browser, now that there is one - people begin complaining that it is too good ?!

Heh

jwblase · Jan 30, 2003, 07:41 PM

Remember: Safari is *not* the king of all browsers. I cannot yet log into my bank's site with it, I cannot use some of the more important websites that I have to use, and I would like to have some more features.

Safari is to web browsing like iPhoto is to Photoshop and iMovie is to FCP. We're being introduced to a good product that is great for the mainstream (mostly nontechie) audience. However, there will always be features that Apple won't include that other developers can take advantage of (tabbed browsing, �berbrowsing, etc...).

Apple's simply given some focus to the Mac market. It now levels the field and tells all the developers, "This is what you *must* have, anything else is up to you to do on your own. Have at it."

This is a great opportunity for the Mozilla team to reorganize and focus on the must-haves, KHTML to bask in Safari's glory, IE to get their heads out of their asses, and for Opera and other bitbrowsers to get the hell outta Dodge before the real contenders come to town with a bone to pick.

Boy are these times interesting!

To quote one John Nasbitt, "We are living in the time of the parenthesis, the time between eras. We are clinging to the known past in fear of the unknown future. The time of the parenthesis is a time for change and questioning"

JB

macmike42 · Jan 30, 2003, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
...Chimera said it may end development...

In his blog, Mike Pinkerton wrote "I'm torn about what to do with Chimera". The next day he wrote "Chimera's not going anywhere, regardless of whatever I post on this blog. Will this get picked up on MacSlash? Unlikely. I guess the damage has already been done". Chimera still has an average of 4 CVS commits every day.

::maroma:: · Jan 30, 2003, 08:41 PM

"Just begun, the Browser Wars have."

Pepi Picklefoot · Jan 30, 2003, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by jwblase:

Boy are these times interesting!

To quote one John Nasbitt, "We are living in the time of the parenthesis, the time between eras. We are clinging to the known past in fear of the unknown future. The time of the parenthesis is a time for change and questioning"

Are we still talking about browsers? Geez...you make 'em sound like they're some kind of life-changing experience.

Adam Betts · Jan 30, 2003, 10:37 PM

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
Are we still talking about browsers? Geez...you make 'em sound like they're some kind of life-changing experience.

They are life-changing experience. If you didn't change your life, you wouldn't be posting on this forum.

butter71 · Jan 31, 2003, 02:04 AM

Originally posted by ::maroma:::
"Just begun, the Browser Wars have."

exactly.

safari raises the bar at the same time it helps others kick its ass.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · 03:04 AM

Originally posted by butter71:
exactly.

safari raises the bar at the same time it helps others kick its ass.

It changes things on the Mac Platform. No PC users are going to switch because of Safari.

butter71 · Jan 31, 2003, 02:45 AM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
It changes things on the Mac Platform. No PC users are going to switch because of Safari.

true. not specifically because of safari. at least not yet.

but you're right, i was talking specifically about mac browsers.

Michaelm8000 · Jan 31, 2003, 04:04 AM

There is more than enough that other browsers can do to compete with Safari. The web browser is the most primitive software people use on modern computer. OmniWeb has the perfect opportunity to do to the webbrowser what the gooey did the DOS. We completely plan on doing just that with our next version. You have not seen anything in the way of innovation with Safari.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Jan 31, 2003, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
There is more than enough that other browsers can do to compete with Safari. The web browser is the most primitive software people use on modern computer. OmniWeb has the perfect opportunity to do to the webbrowser what the gooey did the DOS. We completely plan on doing just that with our next version. You have not seen anything in the way of innovation with Safari.

Mike, what do you do at Omni web exactly?

Art Vandelay · Jan 31, 2003, 04:33 AM

Originally posted by Disgruntled Head of C-3PO:
Mike, what do you do at Omni web exactly?

He does graphics work, such as icons and graffle palettes.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Jan 31, 2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Art Vandelay:
He does graphics work, such as icons and graffle palettes.

That's what I thought.

kovacs · Jan 31, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Michaelm8000:
There is more than enough that other browsers can do to compete with Safari. The web browser is the most primitive software people use on modern computer. OmniWeb has the perfect opportunity to do to the webbrowser what the gooey did the DOS. We completely plan on doing just that with our next version. You have not seen anything in the way of innovation with Safari.

Hehe sounds fun ... let the robot ...euh browser wars begin

clock melter · Feb 1, 2003, 10:43 AM

Wow more than 20 posts and not a single flame war! John Nasbitt, OmniGroup and Yoda have even checked in. There might be hope for these forums yet!

pdot · Feb 1, 2003, 04:19 PM

Ever since Safari came out, I'm confused about my browser "loyalties". I used to be a Chimera and Mozilla user with Chimera nightlies being my main browser and Mozilla being my backup. Now, I'm always using Safari with Chimera 0.6 being my backup. I'm just so amazed at how fast and stable Safari has been so far. Once it starts working with online banking I probably won't use Chimera anymore until it goes GM.

phidauex · Feb 2, 2003, 12:35 AM

Please, lets not talk about browser wars. Browser wars were back when people used primitive browser detection to lock out netscape or IE, or put those ugly banners all over their pages proclaiming 'requirements' of netscape or IE. Browser wars were each browser furiously creating specialized tags that the other browser didn't support in order to garner favor. It was ugly, people. Don't wish for its return.

Safari is a decent browser, and with standards compliance as a central goal between the several major browsers, things will only get more peaceful. Safari isn't going to kill off any browsers. Did iPhoto kill off all the other graphics apps? Did text-edit kill of BBedit? Of course not. That wasn't their point. The point is to give someone a decent product that takes no effort to start using, which is what pre-installed safari will be once it its final release.

There are still things that safari doesn't support, and probably won't support for a long time, if ever. Things like MathML, for instance.

Browser choice isn't an issue of dogma or anything. With standards compliant browsers, it doesn't have to be. I regularly switch between various browsers. Chimera is still my 'main' browser, but I use safari sometimes too. Safari needs to clean up its rendering issues, and provide real XML support, but I forgive it because its beta.

Choice is good. The browser wars won't end because one browser kills off all the others. Not only is that a dumb thing to wish for, but its also never going to happen. I want certain features, you want different features. The obvious answer is to have two different browsers! Once all the browsers are truely standards compliant (which we are very near) then it won't ever be a matter of dogma. You'll say "I prefer Browser A" and I'll say "I prefer browser B" and we'll smile at each other and say "Good thing all the websites work with both, so that we can be free to choose the feature set that best matches our personal wishes and habits, and still enjoy the goodness of the web in the way that the designers intended." It'll be sweet.

Peace,
Sam

fat mac moron · Feb 2, 2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by pdot:
Ever since Safari came out, I'm confused about my browser "loyalties". I used to be a Chimera and Mozilla user with Chimera nightlies being my main browser and Mozilla being my backup. Now, I'm always using Safari with Chimera 0.6 being my backup. I'm just so amazed at how fast and stable Safari has been so far. Once it starts working with online banking I probably won't use Chimera anymore until it goes GM.

I'm in the same boat... Chimera is outstanding, but Safari makes web pages LOOK better and is fast as hell. It gets out of my way when I need to do actual work, and it's KISS simple. I do wish it had tabbed browsing, hopefully in a future release.

Big Mac · Feb 2, 2003, 02:55 AM

I'm pulling for OmniWeb, personally. Safari is fine, but it would be absolutely terrible to see the demise of OmniWeb.

TheIceMan · Feb 4, 2003, 12:49 AM

With OmniWeb version 4.2 beta 1 released today (and soon to follow the full update), all we need now is the Chimera update and let the battles begin. Although OmniWeb's latest beta still has some of the quirks of the previous 4.1.1, hopefully the final release will correct all that. I haven't used Chimera in a LONG time, but I seriously do miss its speed and (dare I say) tabs!

clock melter · Jun 13, 2003, 08:49 PM

How can Camino, Netscape, et al. compete. Check out this maccentral article.

The Jackalope · Jun 13, 2003, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by clock melter:
How can IE, Chimera, OmniWeb, or iCab compete?

By being able to display animated gifs properly?

Alex00087 · Jun 13, 2003, 08:56 PM

[oops nevermind ignore this]

Severed Hand of Skywalker · Jun 13, 2003, 09:26 PM

Originally posted by The Jackalope:
By being able to display animated gifs properly?

I take it as a plus that animated gifs don't work.

Guy Incognito 2 · Jun 13, 2003, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by The Jackalope:
By being able to display animated gifs properly?

That's how they can compete? LOL.

Best joke ever.

The only time you'll see two or more exact animated gifs are forum smilies used abusively. Can you tell me another time where you'll see multiple instances of the same animated gif?

I'm with Severed Hand of Skywalker on this one...one animated gif is enough for me.

Hahaha!!! If you're on anything other than Safari, Mr. Jackalope, suffer my multiple rolleyes!

ambush · Jun 13, 2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
That's how they can compete? LOL. Best joke ever.

The only time you'll see two or more exact animated gifs are forum smilies used abusively. Can you tell me another time where you'll see multiple instances of the same animated gif?

I'm with Severed Hand of Skywalker on this one...one animated gif is enough for me. <snip>

Hahaha!!! If you're on anything other than Safari, Mr. Jackalope, suffer my multiple rolleyes!

uh uh.

i'm on OW4.5 and it does not affect me.

nickm · Jun 14, 2003, 12:43 AM

Animated GIFs are the scourge of the web. Worse than popups or popunders, if you ask me.

As for this thread, I think the Browser Wars are over. But that doesn't mean that we'll have a single browser left at the end of the day. I think Omniweb will be an attractive option for the "power browser" user who wants more than Safari can give. Mozilla/Netscape will still be needed for some people or in some situations (I couldn't access my college's web services without Mozilla).

I'm not sure what Camino brings to the table over Safari, to be honest. I know it is more compatible at the moment, but I'm sure that Safari will catch up.