[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

You're wrong about Samsung - it still offers Mac support. Here are the printers that are listed as Mac compatible according to current sales sheets:

Not many of their printers are supported. I was also getting my information from these sorces:

"I was researching the purchase of a Colour Laser printer with Duplexing capabilities and I came across the Samsung CLP-500. The price at 800CDN was a great deal.I called Samsung directly to ask about the printer's Mac compatibility - seeing that they did not list the Mac under this heading on their website. I had seen this printer on other sites and it listed Macs as compatible. The gentleman I spoke to said that as of OSX 10.3, Samsung has stopped writing Mac drivers for all printers. He wasn't sure when or if they would ever write them again. The reasoning, he explained, was that Apple is releasing too many upgrades to the system too quickly and until there is a stable OS, they won't be releasing any more drivers. He went on to say that another reason behind the decision to stop writing drivers was the further shrinking of the Macintosh market share"
http://macslash.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/30/1423249

I had a rather long exchange with Samsung regarding their printers and what I was told it that they received a lot of complaints from mac users regarding the drivers, and printing speed. So as a result, they were planning to drop Mac support for all of their low-end printers like the 1710. Essentially, what I was told, is that if you want Mac compatibility, look to another vendor or buy a Samsung printer with native postscript support.

I also wrote them regarding Mac support for their 173p and 193p LCD monitors that are entirely controlled by software with no buttons other than power. Again, I was told that Samsung did not see the Mac platform as worthy of writing software for it.

I like the direction Samsung's been going in with their consumer electronics and computer products, but they direction their company is going in regards to Mac support is abysmal. Ultimately, the one impression I was left with after speaking with numerous Samsung support representatives and managers is that Mac users should buy someone else's product because Samsung doesn't value the Mac platform."

http://macslash.org/comments.pl?sid=...read&pid=80725

Did they change their mind?

[IonCable]

Simple.

Market share is measured by Units Shipped. Every PC that ships is counted. Even the PC that turns into a Cash Register, runs a CNC machine, sits in a ATM or does only one thing. These ALL count as market share. Apple Computers are typically in Homes and Creative Industries. I work in Printing we ARE a Mac shop but have more PCs than Macs. Why we have 10 PC that are One Trick Ponies -- Driving Proofers, platesetters, Ripping files, they only do that, sure they could be used as a regular PC but they are not and never will be. As more and more "machines and devices" are commodized PC will continue to be used but not the traditional sense.

If it was possible a better measure of Apples market share would be excluded all the PCs that are NOT used in the traditional Computer sense.

[Chuckit]

Thank you, IonCable. That's exactly what I was trying to say. Apple is not competing the cash register market, so if that market grows, yeah, their share of the overall "things with PC components in them" market will decrease, but it doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong.

[TheoCryst]

I still think that the best way to break into the new buyers market is to release a sub-$600 COMPLETE system. Put a Core Solo in it, include a keyboard mouse and 17" LCD, and sell it in stores that are not Apple stores. Similar specs to the Mac Mini, but a larger enclosure (a larger tower means they can use a 3.5" HDD and a standard 5.25" optical drive, which will drive the price down significantly).

...that is, IF Apple wants to break into the low-end market, which (quite frankly) is where most of the buyers are. Joe Schmo doesn't care if his computer runs Windows or OS X; in fact, he doesn't even know that there's a difference. All he cares about is being able to download pr0n, use Word, and get a free printer for as little $$$ as possible.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

I think Apple has said a few times they don't want the low end. I don't blame them. It cheapens the brand, the profits are low and it takes away from the higher end sales.

So in the end Apple may have a bigger market but less money. Actually it may take away so many mid to pro sales there market and sales would get smaller.

[glideslope]

Wait until this time next year.

[Y3a]

More kids and gamers are buying PC's as TOYS... get it? TOYS.

Even they know that media is the domain of Macs.

Big businesses that buy PC's for the 'savings' are putting the 'savings' into 3rd party software and hardware to protect and fix the lousy software, and hiring MCSE's to tamper all day to keep the system running.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

I know I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Even if Apple offered $30 towards an iPod it would help.

A year ago Apple had an offer where if you bought a Mac through education you would get a free iPod mini or money towards any iPod. 3 of my friends switched to Mac in a heatbeat because of that offer.

Speak of the devil:
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0606briefly.html

Originally Posted by Think Secret

Unconfirmed reports from insiders state that Apple will launch its Back-to-School promotion Monday, offering students and faculty members a $150 rebate when any Mac is purchased alongside an iPod through Apple education.

The promotion essentially offers students a free 1GB iPod nano, or a discount off a higher level iPod. Apple offered a similar promotion last year.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

I know I was thinking the same thing yesterday. Even if Apple offered $30 towards an iPod it would help.

A year ago Apple had an offer where if you bought a Mac through education you would get a free iPod mini or money towards any iPod. 3 of my friends switched to Mac in a heatbeat because of that offer.

Speak of the Devil...

http://www.apple.com/backtoschool/

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by ort888

Speak of the Devil...

http://www.apple.com/backtoschool/

They did this last year also. Problem is that it is only for students and teachers.

[ort888]

Yeah I know. It's still a step in the right direction.

It also makes it very tempting for me, since my wife just started going to school part time. We are suddenly eligible.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by ort888

Yeah I know. It's still a step in the right direction.

It also makes it very tempting for me, since my wife just started going to school part time. We are suddenly eligible.

Totally use it, if you sell the nano + the discount you get you'll save about $250 over anybody else.

I'm getting a MacBook friday with my buddy who is a teacher

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

They did this last year also. Problem is that it is only for students and teachers.

At apple.com everybody is a student or teacher.

[Kerrigan]

Maybe this new Best Buy retail space will help Apple boost its market share

http://news.com.com/2300-1042_3-6078...tag=ne.gall.pg

(Macs have had a pretty bad history with Best Buy, obviously)

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Maybe this new Best Buy retail space will help Apple boost its market share

http://news.com.com/2300-1042_3-6078...tag=ne.gall.pg

(Macs have had a pretty bad history with Best Buy, obviously)

I highly doubt it.

[zmcgill]

People seem quite skeptical about the abilities of Best Buy's staff. I don't know how many time's I have to say 'just looking' when I'm trying to browse.

[Kerrigan]

Not to mention, a lot of people who work there are totally clueless about Macs. They probably will say things to customers like "It doesn't run the internet" or "You can only use iPod on it"

[abe]

You wonder why Apple's market share is dropping???

Dimension E310
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 521 w/HT Technology (2.8GHz,800FSB)
Genuine Windows® XP Media Center Edition 2005
1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz -2DIMMs
160GB Serial ATA 3Gb/s Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/ 8MB cache
Single Drive: 48x CD-RW / DVD-ROM Combo Drive
Featured at $889

NOW ONLY
$499
After 44% Off Instantly!
Offer Details

You could buy 3 to 5 of these units for the price of the average iMac or Powerbook.

That means computing for the whole family. Or a home computer, a laptop and extras...even an iPod! All for the price of ONE Mac.

Any wonder?

I'm not passing judgment on Apple's choice in selecting this market niche but I AM saying the higher end of the price/quality scale IS ALWAYS going to be a smaller slice of the pie.

[production_coordinator]

abe,

I totally agree. It's hard to justify the price of a Mac at times. Whenever I go to buy a new Mac, I take a look at the other side of the fence. I usually say to myself, "ugh, for the same price, I could get a Dell XYZ." I always buy a Mac, but if times were harder for me (like it is for many people), I might just buy a cheap dell.

Don't get me wrong... I love my computer, but when I could buy 3X as many computers for the same price.

[abe]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

abe,

I totally agree. It's hard to justify the price of a Mac at times. Whenever I go to buy a new Mac, I take a look at the other side of the fence. I usually say to myself, "ugh, for the same price, I could get a Dell XYZ." I always buy a Mac, but if times were harder for me (like it is for many people), I might just buy a cheap dell.

Don't get me wrong... I love my computer, but when I could buy 3X as many computers for the same price.

But we must ALSO calculate the price of peace in one's life where a virus-ridden, crash prone PC might instead be.

And most of us will never be able to have the home of our dreams, that luxury motor yacht or an original van Gogh painting.

But, dammit we know that in at least THIS area of our lives we have THE finer (finest) thing in life.

And what is the value of that?

Far greater than the extra dollars we spend for the unique pleasure, I think.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

abe,

I totally agree. It's hard to justify the price of a Mac at times. Whenever I go to buy a new Mac, I take a look at the other side of the fence. I usually say to myself, "ugh, for the same price, I could get a Dell XYZ." I always buy a Mac, but if times were harder for me (like it is for many people), I might just buy a cheap dell.

Don't get me wrong... I love my computer, but when I could buy 3X as many computers for the same price.

I actually recently did the same thing. I compared the iMac to a similarly configured Dell. When I realized the iMac cost only $100 more, I came to the conclusion that people are greatly exaggerating the Apple Tax. $1100 vs. $1200 is a pretty close fight, price-wise.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I actually recently did the same thing. I compared the iMac to a similarly configured Dell. When I realized the iMac cost only $100 more, I came to the conclusion that people are greatly exaggerating the Apple Tax. $1100 vs. $1200 is a pretty close fight, price-wise.

For someone who merely surfs the net and downloads entertainment and does chat and email, maybe a low end Dell would suffice.

Are there any Mac users here who only user their machine for such purposes, I wonder?

[zmcgill]

I know someone whose parents bought her a brand new MacBook Pro so she can surf the internet and email.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

I know someone whose parents bought her a brand new MacBook Pro so she can surf the internet and email.

Well...

They have disposable income and/or they appreciate functional beauty and/or they are very busy people who don't want to worry about technical crap and breakdowns.

Or something(s) else.

What would your guess be?

[zmcgill]

Disposable income, went for the pretty computer. She has no idea what dual booting, dual cores, RAM, anything is.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Disposable income, went for the pretty computer.

There ya go - that's a summary of Joe Public's computer buying habits. Price and looks. Period.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by abe

For someone who merely surfs the net and downloads entertainment and does chat and email, maybe a low end Dell would suffice.

I think not having to worry about spyware and viruses is well worth the $100.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I actually recently did the same thing. I compared the iMac to a similarly configured Dell. When I realized the iMac cost only $100 more, I came to the conclusion that people are greatly exaggerating the Apple Tax. $1100 vs. $1200 is a pretty close fight, price-wise.

I agree... when comparing Apple hardware to similarly configured Dell hardware [granted, we all know you can piece your computer together for cheaper] ... the Apple tax is GREATLY exaggerated.

That being said, if you "just need a computer" (email, web, Word) it's hard to overlook the $299 - $399 entry level Dell.

I think Apple is in a situation where if they offered such a $399-$499 low end system... it would cannibalize their "low end" mini/iMac market. which would be unfortunate... as I would love to see what kind of penetration such a system would have.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

abe,

I totally agree. It's hard to justify the price of a Mac at times. Whenever I go to buy a new Mac, I take a look at the other side of the fence. I usually say to myself, "ugh, for the same price, I could get a Dell XYZ." I always buy a Mac, but if times were harder for me (like it is for many people), I might just buy a cheap dell.

Don't get me wrong... I love my computer, but when I could buy 3X as many computers for the same price.

Ya all this stuff about macs only being 20% more is bull at least on the low end market. For the same price I paid for my Mini I can get a PC with DOUBLE or triple the specs when it comes to RAM, Hard drive and burner. Not to mention many of them include a LCD monitor, all in one printer and 1 year of internet service.

Apple can't even throw in a coupon for 10% off an iPod.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

I think not having to worry about spyware and viruses is well worth the $100.

I think you are missing what abe was trying to convey.

Entry level Dell:
$299 - includes monitor, keyboard and mouse

Entry level Mac mini:
$599 - no monitor, keyboard or mouse

Entry level iMac:
$1,299 - included monitor, keyboard and mouse

Granted, the Dell will have a much slower processor, have integrated graphics, Windows Home, a CRT monitor and OK quality keyboard/mouse... they are still functional. You can send the same email, surf the same websites, listen to the same music... on both the $299 and $1299 system.

If you don't understand that, you have never really been poor.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

Ya all this stuff about macs only being 20% more is bull at least on the low end market. For the same price I paid for my Mini I can get a PC with DOUBLE or triple the specs when it comes to RAM, Hard drive and burner. Not to mention many of them include a LCD monitor, all in one printer and 1 year of internet service.

Apple can't even throw in a coupon for 10% off an iPod.

Example please...

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

You can send the same email, surf the same websites, listen to the same music... on both the $299 and $1299 system.

The Dell doesn't cost $299 because Dell charges an outrageous €80 for shipping. The Apple is free shipping and you can usually get better deals at a local dealer or in mail order. That again closes the gap between the Dell and the mini to $100 again. Then you absolutely need anti-virus for a Windows machine which adds €30-50 annually. If I were really poor I would take a used mini over a brand new piece of crap from Dell any time.

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

Example please...

I see them in print all the time but here is one I quickly found.

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...gon=&langid=EN

http://www.canadacomputers.com/index...150&cid=170.45

I paid $1050 CAN for my Mini and got no $150 printer, 19" LCD or video card, 250 Gig hard drive, 7 USB ports, mouse, keyboard or 3 Firewire ports

What I said above is valid but to be fair but you don't get all the nice little things like style, motion censors, OSX and 2 finger scrolling. Luckily for Apple those things are worth paying for to me.

[TheoCryst]

Here's an excellent example: A Cheap Dell:
- Intel Pentium 4 @ 2.8 GHz
- Windows XP Media Center 2005
- 1 GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x512)
- 80 GB SATA Drive @7200 RPM
- Dual-Layer 8x DVD Burner
- 17" LCD Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse included
- Free Shipping

Final Price: $489 USD

For those who are simply "surfing the web", etc, how can Apple possibly compete? Just look at the Mac Mini specs!

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Disposable income, went for the pretty computer. She has no idea what dual booting, dual cores, RAM, anything is.

Yeah, my boss just bought a $2,500 MacBook Pro for his 19 year old daughter. She didn't even know how to instal Word on the thing. She had to bring it into the office and have her daddies employees do it for her. She got the MacBook Pro after dropping her year old $2,000 Powerbook G4.

[zmcgill]

I think we need a redistribution of wealth here.

[ort888]

Viva La Revolution!

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

The Dell doesn't cost $299 because Dell charges an outrageous €80 for shipping. The Apple is free shipping and you can usually get better deals at a local dealer or in mail order. That again closes the gap between the Dell and the mini to $100 again. Then you absolutely need anti-virus for a Windows machine which adds €30-50 annually. If I were really poor I would take a used mini over a brand new piece of crap from Dell any time.

1) We aren't talking about used equipment here. To flip that argument around, I can get a used two year old dell for $99 and a used monitor for $30...

2) The $100 gap you talk about is simply wrong. We are comparing a new Dell system ($299) with an Mac mini ($599 - computer only). Don't forget you need the monitor, keyboard and printer.

3) DO NOT start saying "yah, but the Mac has XYZ faster hardware" WE KNOW THAT! I'm comparing an entry level Mac with an entry level Dell. My point is, both can do email, surf and write papers...

My point is, with $500 in your pocket today, you can go and get a complete Dell solution (monitor, keyboard, mouse), virus software and a printer.

or

You can go look at a Mac mini.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by TheoCryst

Here's an excellent example: A Cheap Dell:
- Intel Pentium 4 @ 2.8 GHz
- Windows XP Media Center 2005
- 1 GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x512)
- 80 GB SATA Drive @7200 RPM
- Dual-Layer 8x DVD Burner
- 17" LCD Monitor, Keyboard and Mouse included
- Free Shipping

Final Price: $489 USD

For those who are simply "surfing the web", etc, how can Apple possibly compete? Just look at the Mac Mini specs!

Well, to those that put hardware cost above everything else... how can Apple compete? I think the answer is... they don't.

I think my main issue us... buying a Mac is still a hard sell to those that can't see beyond the hardware. I wouldn't have it any other way but Mac.

[abe]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

I think you are missing what abe was trying to convey.

Entry level Dell:
$299 - includes monitor, keyboard and mouse

Entry level Mac mini:
$599 - no monitor, keyboard or mouse

Entry level iMac:
$1,299 - included monitor, keyboard and mouse

Granted, the Dell will have a much slower processor, have integrated graphics, Windows Home, a CRT monitor and OK quality keyboard/mouse... they are still functional. You can send the same email, surf the same websites, listen to the same music... on both the $299 and $1299 system.

If you don't understand that, you have never really been poor.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

You can send the same email, surf the same websites, OR listen to the same music...

Fixed.

[itai195]

The nice thing about the iPod is it's isolated Apple somewhat from having to obsess over market-share in the PC business. They can be happy staying in their profitable niche, which is where I think most of us would like them to stay. Do we really want to see them pump out a $300 turd like Dell?

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by itai195

The nice thing about the iPod is it's isolated Apple somewhat from having to obsess over market-share in the PC business. They can be happy staying in their profitable niche, which is where I think most of us would like them to stay. Do we really want to see them pump out a $300 turd like Dell?

The question is... how long with the iPod remain dominant? [a completely different conversation].

To answer your question, NO, I don't want them to "pump out a $300 turd like Dell." BUT that being said, I think they could build a VERY COOL entry level system for $500 (keyboard/mouse/moniter included).

[Socially Awkward Solo]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

The question is... how long with the iPod remain dominant? [a completely different conversation].

To answer your question, NO, I don't want them to "pump out a $300 turd like Dell." BUT that being said, I think they could build a VERY COOL entry level system for $500 (keyboard/mouse/moniter included).

All I expect is not cheaper prices but more for the money like an iPod coupon, MORE RAM, bigger hard drive and faster burners.

[zmcgill]

Originally Posted by Socially Awkward Solo

All I expect is not cheaper prices but more for the money like an iPod coupon, MORE RAM, bigger hard drive and faster burners.

Definitely agreed there. The first thing anybody who knows anything does is upgrade the RAM, notice how eBay is saturated with MacBook 2x256MB chips going for $10/pair because everybody's pulling them for a more livable amount of RAM? How can Apple's top of the line machine call itself good when it only comes with 512MB standard?? On top of the $3200 you've shelled out initially, you've got to invest a few hundred more so you can use it for the power apps for which it was designed.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Gossamer

Definitely agreed there. The first thing anybody who knows anything does is upgrade the RAM, notice how eBay is saturated with MacBook 2x256MB chips going for $10/pair because everybody's pulling them for a more livable amount of RAM? How can Apple's top of the line machine call itself good when it only comes with 512MB standard?? On top of the $3200 you've shelled out initially, you've got to invest a few hundred more so you can use it for the power apps for which it was designed.

I would be happy seeing Apple offering something a little more low end. 512 of ram (expandable to 1GB). Nothing special Intel chip, combo drive... 17" LCD... Under $500.

Oh well... I'm not holding my breath.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by production_coordinator

To answer your question, NO, I don't want them to "pump out a $300 turd like Dell." BUT that being said, I think they could build a VERY COOL entry level system for $500 (keyboard/mouse/moniter included).

The problem with these $300 Dell systems is the lack of quality control. This is precisely what enables them to sell systems for $300. Dell's been taking a beating on this issue recently, because it's obvious to everyone that Dell has trouble competing in the more profitable up-market niche that Apple and some others (e.g. Alienware used to) fill. Dell has established a reputation as the low cost provider and that's where they're stuck. They're slaves to the Windows upgrade cycle and they're running out of avenues for growth.

This is the reason why Apple shouldn't wade into the ultra-low cost part of the market. There is no technological barrier -- they could offer a $300-500 PC if they wanted to -- but they'd have to either degrade the user experience or sacrifice their premium pricing strategy, neither of which makes much business sense. Apple's computer business is all about offering a premium experience for a premium price. Ask an Apple executive and this is exactly what they'll tell you. I didn't used to understand or like it either...

Apple isn't the only company that uses price to differentiate itself this way. Think of Starbucks -- have you ever seen Starbucks put their drinks on sale or mail out coupons for $.30 off a latte? No, because premium pricing is a core part of their business. Their customers associate premium pricing with an (arguably) premium product. Same reason all their drink sizes are 'large.'

P.S. People ask that a lot about the iPod, but the Walkman lasted decades, and it didn't have the benefit of built-in obsolescence.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by itai195

The problem with these $300 Dell systems is the lack of quality control.

So do the $3000 MacBook pros.

[itai195]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

So do the $3000 MacBook pros.

That's debatable. I'm not particularly familiar with the MacBook Pro issues, but I am familiar with (a) the comparatively higher probability of defects in a brand new design and (b) the comparatively higher rates of whining amongst Mac users (hey I'm one of you, just telling it how it is!).

Compare that to Dell, which has legendary quality control issues that'd make your mother blush. From awful technical support to shoving bloatware down customers' throats to using low quality parts and [of course] running Microsoft Windows, Dell's customer experience is a nightmare. Not to mention one of their practices that bugs the crap out of me -- they stick very high resolution displays on their laptops but misconfigure Windows to run at its standard DPI....

Anyway, point is these Dell issues aren't really debatable -- they're very clearly in the business of selling you a dirt cheap box at low margins and profiting off their deals with AOL, Microsoft, Intel, et al. Again, this really isn't what an Apple fan should want Apple to turn into.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by ort888

I think Apple needs to start making iPod/Mac bundles. For example, you should be able to buy a Mini, Macbook or iMac with a Nano for less then the cost of buying them separately.

For instance, what if Apple had a special deal where you got a free 1 gig Nano with every Mac sold. That could be HUGE. Right before college started?

For students you do get a free $179 rebate, which is the exact same price as a nano. Mmm... free nano...

http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/portab...ods-178362.php

(Posted too soon! I didn't see the second page... my bad)