[Kerrigan]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...267864,00.html

Originally Posted by The Times

ISRAEL accused Lebanon of an act of war yesterday after Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers in a daring cross-border raid and killed eight others.
Within hours Israeli warplanes, tanks and gunboats were shelling southern Lebanon, and Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, promised “very, very, very painful” reprisals.

The events marked a dramatic escalation in the stand-off over the Israeli soldier held hostage in the Gaza Strip, and threatened to turn a localised incident into a regional conflagration. Mr Olmert, facing his most serious test since he took over from Ariel Sharon, said: “The murderous attack that took place this morning was not a terror attack. It was an act of war by the state of Lebanon against the state of Israel within its sovereign territory .”

This is kind of a post and run, because the article speaks for itself. All I have to say is that Israel has a right to defend itself and its about time that Lebanon (and maybe others) pay for the way they've been terrorizing Israeli soldiers and civilians.

[PacHead]

When is the zionist entity going to end the occupation of Lebanon ? Lebanon has every right to defend itself against zionist aggression. Israel is the biggest terrorist of them all, terrorizing innocent Hezbollah gunmen who only want to get on with their day to day business of killing jooos. And why should Israel make such a big fuss over only a couple of joooos who were captured in Israeli territory ? Can't Israel just get along with it's peaceful neighbors ? Clearly, the jooos are troublemakers.



Go Cindy, Michael and Osama !

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by PacHead

When is the zionist entity going to end the occupation of Lebanon ? Lebanon has every right to defend itself against zionist aggression. Israel is the biggest terrorist of them all, terrorizing innocent Hezbollah gunmen who only want to get on with their day to day business of killing jooos. And why should Israel make such a big fuss over only a couple of joooos who were captured in Israeli territory ? Can't Israel just get along with it's peaceful neighbors ? Clearly, the jooos are troublemakers.



Go Cindy, Michael and Osama !

HA! HA!

Actually, this is a genuine, legitimate instance of Israel being aggressive towards one of its neighbors. The Lebanese Prime Minister stated they knew nothing about the capture of Israeli troops--while possible, it seems unlikely--and would take no responsibility for it. But that's the thing, they are a sovereign political entity and they need to rein in Hezbollah. (This is the same argument I have been using with the Palestinian Authority in regards to the miltant wing of Hamas.)

If you want to be taken seriously as a sovereign nation then you must act the part. The Lebanese government must do EVERYTHING in their power to distance themselves from Hezbollah and their actions. This action by Hezbollah is as much an attack on Lebanon as it is on Israel. The Lebanese military should be helping the Israeli military find their captured soldiers. I FULLY suppport Israel's claims that Lebanon, either through silent malevolence or passive indifference, is responsible for the well-being of the captured Israeli soldiers. So, now is an opportunity for another Arab, Middle East country to work to show they are renouncing the tools of terrorism and embracing diplomacy and the rules of law.

[Kevin]

Lebanon just screwed the pooch.

[baw]

'bout time. Nuff said.

[ink]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

The Lebanese Prime Minister stated they knew nothing about the capture of Israeli troops--while possible, it seems unlikely

Highly unlikely, considering that Hezbullah tried this a few months ago and failed -- and both governments knew about the attempt.

[voodoo]

I find it interesting that Israel doesn't try to make peace with the largely Christian (40%) Lebanon.

V

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by voodoo

I find it interesting that Israel doesn't try to make peace with the largely Christian (40%) Lebanon.

V

Check this out
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0205/02053001LW.asp

K

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Check this out
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0205/02053001LW.asp

K

Interesting.. thanks. If I may be so curious: what has this to do with my musings?

V

[Kevin]

Just amusing that the Christian population keeps getting smaller...

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by voodoo

I find it interesting that Israel doesn't try to make peace with the largely Christian (40%) Lebanon.

V

Yeah, I share your viewpoint comrade, I even stated something similiar earlier:

Can't Israel just get along with it's peaceful neighbors ? Clearly, the jooos are troublemakers.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Just amusing that the Christian population keeps getting smaller...

Yes, that is curious. Most curious. I would really like to know why that is.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by PacHead

You remind me of someone.. hmm.. hmmm your idol perhaps?





V

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by voodoo

I find it interesting that Israel doesn't try to make peace with the largely Christian (40%) Lebanon.

V

Christians would be the minority, and not to be confused with your use of the word largely.

Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri)

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Christians would be the minority, and not to be confused with your use of the word largely.

Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri)

Hey retardboy, there are 40% of those people Christian. Show some respect you bitch.

V

[Kevin]

100% of them are human.

Just some make bad choices. :/

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by voodoo

You remind me of someone.. hmm.. hmmm your idol perhaps?

V

I don't really care about him or your off topic diversions, but didn't he once say that he'd grab a rifle and fight and die for Israel a couple of years ago ?

[Kevin]

Arafat and Clinton were more buddies than anything else.

Arafat came to visit Clinton more than any other diplomat

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I don't really care about him or your off topic diversions, but didn't he once say that he'd grab a rifle and fight and die for Israel a couple of years ago ?

Maybe you could grab a rifle and die?

V

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Hey retardboy, there are 40% of those people Christian. Show some respect you bitch.

V

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by voodoo

Maybe you could grab a rifle and die?

V

Why would I, I'm not Israeli.

Anyhow, I wouldn't want to miss out on all the dead terrorists and bombed out buildings that'll be shown on tv in the coming days when Israel steps up their attacks.

[voodoo]

Aaaanyway.

"Breaking News:

Israel struck the Beirut Rafic Hariri International Airport.

5 rockets, casualties reported.

Smoke can be seen coming from the airport.

The airport has been shut down."

That means war.

V

[Kevin]

It's hit the fan folks.

[hey!_Zeus]

Seems like the Jews are at war with the world at the moment.

[PacHead]

Hezbollah is the 'party of god' ? Nah, it's more like the party of terrorist idiots.

Look at these stupid people cheering on the initial act of war by Lebanon.



That logo and gun looks kind of familiar, I can't pinpoint it exactly, but.......

I wonder if those geniuses are still smiling after Israeli jets visited hundreds of targets in Lebanon ?



I wouldn't want to live in that house.



That bridge will probably be uncrossable for a while.

And the airport strike is a good move on Israel's part. Who wants to visit Lebanon anyhow ? Way too many terrorists there.

[Spliffdaddy]

I'd like to see Lebanon become part of Israel's territory. Dropping a few little bombs won't accomplish that, however. Dropping a few nukes might.

The obvious question seems to be "did Israel seek approval from the UN before they bombed Lebanon?"



Surely, a dozen years worth of UN resolutions could solve the problem without bloodshed.

[TheWOAT]

Israel is mad that George Clooney got his fingernails ripped out by Masawi while visiting Beirut with Hezbollahs blessing. This attack has Clooney written all over it.

[smacintush]

Maybe if the UN can step in an try to keep the peace this conflict can go on for decades too!

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by smacintush

Maybe if the UN can step in an try to keep the peace this conflict can go on for decades too!

The UN has already stepped in and it has lasted for decades already. War is the solution, IMO.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by PacHead

The UN has already stepped in and it has lasted for decades already.

BAH! Shows you what I know of the situation!

War is the solution, IMO.

Sometimes it is. I say let them go at it and whoever wins, wins. "UN Peacekeeping" is really "UN Peace-postponing"

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I have to say I'm convinced that there will never be peace in this region, and that the Muslim side has proven once and for all, beyond all shadow of doubt that they are the reason.

Israel withdrew settlements and troops from Gaza, and partially from the West Bank – handing their foes on a silver platter a tailor made opportunity to score support and show the world that they could lay down their arms and at least act like they were the more “peaceful” side'.

Heck, even those of us who've NEVER trusted the Muslim nations might have been able to say, “Well, there's a slight hope if at the very least they can recognize that after Israel concedes ground and withdraws from disputed areas- this is when you can't possibly allow acts of terrorism and aggression. Just demonstrate that most BASIC level of reason ... heck, even float an ILLUSION of it for two freakin' seconds... then maybe... maybe there's a glimmer of hope for a peace somewhere down the road because the seeds of logic MUST be there somewhere...”

Nope. No such hope.

Instead of seizing a point-scoring opportunity, brickskulls chose to squander it so they could launch missile attacks and kidnapping raids -PROVING the claims that such behavior was precisely how giving slack would be repaid.

What a GREAT WAY to seize the moral high ground there; do EXACTLY what Israel's always warned you would!

And now things have devolved to the brink of war with Lebanon.

Oh, I know. Let's now conclude there's any logic to constantly demanding Israel cut more slack and constantly offer more concessions!

Yeah, it suuuuure does lead to peace!

[Taliesin]

Israel and Lebanon/Syria were already at war with each other, it just cooled down after UN-intervention and the withdrawal of Israel from most of Lebanon, but no peace-agreement was made, because Israel didn't want peace, since that would have meant to give back the Golan-areas and the Sheeba-farms, as well as the release of all lebanese/syrian prisoners...

So Hezbollah chose to flare up again the cooled-down-war by attacking and capturing israeli soldiers for the purpose of a negotiated prisoner-release from israeli prisons.
Hmm, the consequences will be obviously hard for Lebanon, but Israel's military reactions merely point out its desperation and cluelessness upon what to do to restore and secure Israel's deterrence-capabilities, as well as its cluelessness on how to get back the captured soldiers without negotiations.

There will be a lot of deaths and destruction, but at the end Israel will negotiate and release prisoners..

But what is the lecture to learn from this? That nothing can replace a just and all-encompassing peace-agreement between Israel, the palestinians, Syria and Lebanon, including giving back the Golan-areas, the Sheeba-farms, the complete Westbank, East-Jerusalem, as well as a complete prisoner-release of palestinians, lebanese and syrians from israeli prisoners, ie. a big general amnesty.

Unilateral border-definitions by Israel resolve very little.

Taliesin

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

HA! HA!

Actually, this is a genuine, legitimate instance of Israel being aggressive towards one of its neighbors. The Lebanese Prime Minister stated they knew nothing about the capture of Israeli troops--while possible, it seems unlikely--and would take no responsibility for it. But that's the thing, they are a sovereign political entity and they need to rein in Hezbollah. (This is the same argument I have been using with the Palestinian Authority in regards to the miltant wing of Hamas.)

If you want to be taken seriously as a sovereign nation then you must act the part. The Lebanese government must do EVERYTHING in their power to distance themselves from Hezbollah and their actions. This action by Hezbollah is as much an attack on Lebanon as it is on Israel. The Lebanese military should be helping the Israeli military find their captured soldiers. I FULLY suppport Israel's claims that Lebanon, either through silent malevolence or passive indifference, is responsible for the well-being of the captured Israeli soldiers. So, now is an opportunity for another Arab, Middle East country to work to show they are renouncing the tools of terrorism and embracing diplomacy and the rules of law.

How much time did the Lebanese government get to deal with this before Israel invaded?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...267864,00.html



This is kind of a post and run, because the article speaks for itself. All I have to say is that Israel has a right to defend itself and its about time that Lebanon (and maybe others) pay for the way they've been terrorizing Israeli soldiers and civilians.

Israel and Lebanon have been at war for a while. No peace has been made between the two.

So again a legitimate military operation is judged terrorism.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

How much time did the Lebanese government get to deal with this before Israel invaded?

A quote from this article says it all.

"Israel has said it holds Lebanon responsible for the soldiers' capture and views it as an "act of war".

Hezbollah has said the captured soldiers will not be returned without a release deal for Palestinian, Lebanese and other Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails.

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the Hezbollah operation and refused to take responsibility for the soldiers' capture."

Instead of coming out and stating that the capture of Israeli soldiers by non-state paramilitaries operating within his country is an affront to the sovereignty of his nation, the Lebanese Prime Minister, head of a well-established sovereign nation, washes his hands of the whole issue. So, the Lebanese government is faced with a choice: It can assert its sovereign authority and renounce the actions of Hezbollah or it can do nothing. It would seem the Lebanese PM has chosen the latter course of action, much to the detriment of his country.

[Sky Captain]

I have a Lebanese friend/neighbor.(yes, a Lebanese hillbilly!)
He told me last night he's glad he not in Lebanon anymore.
Dangar said this is going to get real ugly.


And I "grabbed a rifle" 20 years ago.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by PacHead

That logo and gun looks kind of familiar, I can't pinpoint it exactly, but.......

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora denied any knowledge of the Hezbollah operation and refused to take responsibility for the soldiers' capture."

Is Bush responsible for the rape and murder of a family in Iraq by his soldiers?

And if he said he's responsible for this it is very likely that Israel would target him. Why would he want to do that?

You also need to realise that any Muslim/Arab militant/political leader responsible for this would be most proud to say that they did it. If the PM was in any way responsible he'd say so.

Instead of coming out and stating that the capture of Israeli soldiers by non-state paramilitaries operating within his country is an affront to the sovereignty of his nation, the Lebanese Prime Minister, head of a well-established sovereign nation, washes his hands of the whole issue. So, the Lebanese government is faced with a choice: It can assert its sovereign authority and renounce the actions of Hezbollah or it can do nothing. It would seem the Lebanese PM has chosen the latter course of action, much to the detriment of his country.

Of course he does that. If he didn't he's be considered yet another example of ME puppets of the west.

I ask again, how much time did he (and the Lebanese government) have to react to this incident before Israel invaded Lebanon, bombed targets within Beirut (perhaps look at the geography of Lebanon to understand why that is "interesting") and put a blockade on the Lebanese population?

[yakkiebah]

Who are Hezbollah?
Hezbollah - or the Party of God - is a powerful political and military organisation of Shia Muslims in Lebanon.

It emerged with financial backing from Iran in the early 1980s and began a struggle to drive Israeli troops from Lebanon.

In May 2000 this aim was achieved, thanks largely to the success of the party's military arm, the Islamic Resistance.

In return, the movement, which represents Lebanon's Shia Muslims - the country's single largest community - won the respect of most Lebanese.

It now has an important presence in the Lebanese parliament
and has built broad support by providing social services and health care. It also has an influential TV station, al-Manar.

[...]

The party's rhetoric calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. It regards the whole of Palestine as occupied Muslim land and it argues that Israel has no right to exist.

The party was long supported by Iran, which provided it with arms and money.

[...]

Maybe a regime change is in order?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Israel and Lebanon/Syria were already at war with each other, it just cooled down after UN-intervention and the withdrawal of Israel from most of Lebanon, but no peace-agreement was made

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Israel and Lebanon have been at war for a while. No peace has been made between the two.

Congratulations on removing yourselves from any discussion about the Iraq war (since "Operation Desert Storm" was ended on a cease-fire*, not a peace agreement, and "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is actually the same war).

(*subject to 687)

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Is Bush responsible for the rape and murder of a family in Iraq by his soldiers?

YES! He is Commander-in-Chief of the US military so the acts of those soldiers who committed the rape and murder reflect badly on him and all of us.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You also need to realise that any Muslim/Arab responsible for this would be most proud to say that they did it. If the PM was in any way responsible he'd say so.

Huh?!? Aren't you the one always ranting and raging whenever anyone makes a negative blanket statement about Arabs and/or Muslims in the Middle East? Here you are, not only making a blanket statement, but a blanket statement that asserts Muslim/Arabs would be "proud" to say they committed an act of war against a neighboring country. I take it you have renounced your previous stance of righteous indignation when others on here make blanket statements about Arabs and/or Muslims.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Of course he does that [fails to renounce the actions of a non-state paramilitary group working on his country]. If he didn't he's be considered yet another example of ME puppets of the west.

So, if a ME nation defends their sovereignty from non-state paramilitary groups acting within their borders they are seen as puppets of the West? Interesting. This doesn't paint the nations of the ME in a very positive light. It paints them as more interested in defining themselves by their opposition to things Western than by any internal, self-generated sense of identity. Sort of a national identity from without, as it were.

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I ask again, how much time did he (and the Lebanese government) have to react to this incident before Israel invaded Lebanon, bombed targets within Beirut (perhaps look at the geography of Lebanon to understand why that is "interesting") and put a blockade on the Lebanese population?

While Israel invaded Lebanon within hours of the Hezbollah incursion--not giving the Lebanese government much time to do anything--the Lebanese PM had plenty of time before or shortly after Israel invaded to state the things above I said he should state, "coming out and stating that the capture of Israeli soldiers by non-state paramilitaries operating within his country is an affront to the sovereignty of his nation" and ordering his troops to work with Israeli troops in helping find the Hezbollah forces who captured the Israeli soldiers. Actions such as these would have gone a long way in showing that he takes his nation's sovereignty seriously more seriously than his national animosity towards Israel.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Huh?!? Aren't you the one always ranting and raging whenever anyone makes a negative blanket statement about Arabs and/or Muslims in the Middle East? Here you are, not only making a blanket statement, but a blanket statement that asserts Muslim/Arabs would be "proud" to say they committed an act of war against a neighboring country. I take it you have renounced your previous stance of righteous indignation when others on here make blanket statements about Arabs and/or Muslims.

Oops. Forgot to add "militant/political leader". Will fix accordingly and come back to this post later and reply to the rest of your post. Too much to do, too little time.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Israel and Lebanon/Syria were already at war with each other, it just cooled down after UN-intervention and the withdrawal of Israel from most of Lebanon, but no peace-agreement was made, because Israel didn't want peace, since that would have meant to give back the Golan-areas and the Sheeba-farms, as well as the release of all lebanese/syrian prisoners...

Incorrect.

The 1976 good fence initiative was a peace agreement.

And then the formal non-agression pact signed in 1983 was a peace treaty. It didn't include normal diplomatic relations, but you're fooling yourself if you believe it was a cooled-down war that was still ongoing. Sure, Lebanon violated those terms. And then Israel fully withdrew in compliance with UNSCR425 in 2000.

And no, Israel would not have to give up the Golan and Sheba farms. Those are Israel's under UN resolution 242 and are not open to for discussion at this time.

So Hezbollah chose to flare up again the cooled-down-war by attacking and capturing israeli soldiers for the purpose of a negotiated prisoner-release from israeli prisons.

So HizbAllah (let's spell it with Allah in it, since they contend to be the party of Allah) is a party with elected seats in Parliament. Representatives of the government. And they acted militarily against another country.

That is called an act of war. Heaven forbid that Israel defend itself against attacks made against it.

Hmm, the consequences will be obviously hard for Lebanon, but Israel's military reactions merely point out its desperation and cluelessness upon what to do to restore and secure Israel's deterrence-capabilities, as well as its cluelessness on how to get back the captured soldiers without negotiations.

There will be a lot of deaths and destruction, but at the end Israel will negotiate and release prisoners..

But what is the lecture to learn from this? That nothing can replace a just and all-encompassing peace-agreement between Israel, the palestinians, Syria and Lebanon, including giving back the Golan-areas, the Sheeba-farms, the complete Westbank, East-Jerusalem, as well as a complete prisoner-release of palestinians, lebanese and syrians from israeli prisoners, ie. a big general amnesty.

Unilateral border-definitions by Israel resolve very little.

Taliesin

Incorrect. Giving up all that you say solves little except the end of Israel.
The reasons why Israel would give up prisoners (who are prisoners for a reason, remember. These are would-be or actual murderers.) would be political pressure reasons. Reasons to try and appease the world community that perpetually blames Israel anyway.

Giving up such things only inspires more attacks. See: Gaza.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Incorrect.

The 1976 good fence initiative was a peace agreement.

Really? IIRC it was a uni-lateral program that allowed Lebanese civilians to enter Israel for medical and work reasons.

And also IIRC it was suspended in 1982.

And no, Israel would not have to give up the Golan and Sheba farms. Those are Israel's under UN resolution 242 and are not open to for discussion at this time.

No they aren't. Stop lying please. You might be hinting at the semantic dispute but even taking that into account it doesn't say that the Golan heights and the Sheba farms are Israeli territory. You know this just as well as I do.

And no matter what resolution 242 says acquisition of land by force is illegal. Look up GCIV Article 47 and 54.

That is called an act of war. Heaven forbid that Israel defend itself against attacks made against it.

No one is complaining about Israel defending itself. If Israel did infact defend themselves no one would complain. But the problem is that Israel isn't defending themselves. They are violating international laws by using collective punishment and attacks on civilian infrastructures as their way of "defending themselves". That is why people and soon the West will act against Israel.

And the sooner you understand that the sooner you will have peace. Which is probably why you don't listen to people saying this. You don't want peace. You are too busy working towards more lebensraum.

And proposing ethnic cleansing like you've done before is also a crime of war.

[vmarks]

I have NEVER proposed ethnic cleansing. That's the domain of the Palestinians who want a Jew-free Palestine.

I've simply suggested that people who wanted to build a state move to where that state exists if they wish to be citizens of that state. That's not cleansing. They don't have to move, they can stay put and be Israelis.

Israel is not committing war crimes here.

And, you and Troll have been talking about the West acting against Israel for as long as I can recall. I wonder why that hasn't happened yet.

My way forward is the way that brings peace the most speedily. The fact that you don't like it does not mean I am not for peace. It just means you want the way that has prolonged violence, death and suffering.

Negotiations haven't worked yet? I'm not surprised. Ready to try my way? No? Then expect the same suffering and misery that negotiations have yielded so far.

[goMac]

Israel is going to be in a bit of trouble once Lebanon calls in it's alliances.

Personally I hope they blow the whole region up so no one argues about it anymore. The US better not get involved. We're in enough trouble as it is.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I've simply suggested that people who wanted to build a state move to where that state exists if they wish to be citizens of that state.

This wasn't good enough for the Israelis. Why shouldn't it be good enough for the Palestinians?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I have NEVER proposed ethnic cleansing. That's the domain of the Palestinians who want a Jew-free Palestine.

Posted by vmarks in another thread:
Arabs living west of the Jordan river who wish to be Palestinians can move to Gaza.

As close to ethnic cleansing as possible.

Palestinians want a Jew-free Palestine? Really? Evidence for that please?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by goMac

This wasn't good enough for the Israelis. Why shouldn't it be good enough for the Palestinians?

All animals are equals. Some are just more equal than other.

Didn't you know that?

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by goMac

This wasn't good enough for the Israelis. Why shouldn't it be good enough for the Palestinians?

Actually, it was good enough for the Israelis.

Israeli only expanded when attacked.