Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Israel Is Always Right

Israel Is Always Right (Page 7)
Thread Tools
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
No, it's called being a racist.

None of those are things that CHILDREN do so how you think this helps your argument that children are a fair target, I don't know!
Palestinian children are raised to be martyrs. They are taught that they can have no greater honor.

They say so themselves, http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060707/...aza_funeral_dc

"BEIT LAHIYA, Gaza (Reuters) - A dozen small boys, not yet teenagers, were among relatives gathered at a funeral in Gaza on Friday for a young man killed in clashes between Palestinian militants and Israeli troops.

Asked if they would learn from the death of 19-year-old Mohammed Maher Shahine, killed while watching Thursday’s fighting as Israel stepped up an offensive in the strip, the boys answered almost with one voice.

“No. We want to be martyrs too,” they said, seemingly oblivious to the danger of following around bands of gunmen as they battle more powerful Israeli troops, who are backed by tanks and helicopters."

http://pmw.org.il/tv%20part3.html has Palestinian Authority (government TV) shows with summaries like: PA Child: "Daddy bought me a machine gun and a rifle"

Promoting violence and terror among children through video clips and other children's programming has long been a prominent component of Palestinian Authority Television. This week a young girl was asked to recite a poem on PA TV. The poem is the recounting of a present received from daddy; "a machine gun and rifle."
[PA TV, February 26, 2006]

Talking Chick Promotes Massacre with AK-47

On a children's program discussing the importance of trees, "Tarabisho - the Talking Chick" - was the center of the discussion. The child moderator asked Tarabisho what he would do if someone, specifically a "little boy," were to chop down his tree. In his squeaky little voice, Tarabisho answered: "I'll fight him and make a big riot, I'll call the whole world and make a riot. I'll bring AK-47s [assault rifles] and the whole world, I'll commit a massacre in front of the house".

Rather than use this opportunity to teach children the value of peaceful communication and negotiation - peace education in other words - the Palestinian Authority instead aired a message that promoted violence as a way to solve problems.
[PA TV, October 22, 2004]
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 11:51 AM
 
And here we have vmarks saying that children are legitimate targets. Or at least defending a person who says that.

The list grows even bigger.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:14 PM
 
Here's a message to the fuzzy brained palestinians. Don't use your children as kevlar vests if you don't want them killed. What a bunch of idiots. And did anybody catch those images of children being paraded in front of the TV cameras yesterday ? Only a fool would fall for such simple-minded propaganda.

     
Y3a
Mac Elite
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Northern VA - Just outside DC
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:18 PM
 
I hope they flatten BOTH Gaza and the Palastinian claimed areas AND Lebannon.
I hope they learn that THIS TIME they should KEEP the lands. it's time the muslim extremists get beaten badly and held accountable to the 'peaceful Muslims' for causing such losses and horrors.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
No, it's called being a racist.

None of those are things that CHILDREN do so how you think this helps your argument that children are a fair target, I don't know!
Ok, fine, then I'm a racist. Whatever. I suppose it's better than being a blind idiot. Thanks for twisting my comment out of context and throwing up such a huge strawman.

Why do I even bother talking with you? OK, here, I'll put it bluntly so you''ll be able to understand, given your limited capacity:

THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO HIDE AMONG CHILDREN ANY LONGER. GIVEN THEIR TRACK RECORD, IF CHILDREN ARE IN THE WAY, THE CHILDREN WILL DIE TOO.

If their children die, the only people that these "combatants" can blame are themselves.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
And here we have vmarks saying that children are legitimate targets. Or at least defending a person who says that.

The list grows even bigger.
Given what these children are taught, some would say they are legitimate targets.

Personally, I'd like to think that a few would learn that their parents and mentors were wrong, but maybe I'm being too compassionate. Maybe some won't become terrorists or sympathizers, but given the Palestinian elections and the general climate of modern Islam, I may be wrong.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Y3a
I hope they flatten BOTH Gaza and the Palastinian claimed areas AND Lebannon.
I hope they learn that THIS TIME they should KEEP the lands. it's time the muslim extremists get beaten badly and held accountable to the 'peaceful Muslims' for causing such losses and horrors.
So the Lebanese are all Muslim extremists are they? Collectively punishing Christians and Muslims for the acts of a few terrorists is a sure fire way for Israel to make itself MORE enemies.
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
So the Lebanese are all Muslim extremists are they? Collectively punishing Christians and Muslims for the acts of a few terrorists is a sure fire way for Israel to make itself MORE enemies.
If it's only a few terrorists, then surely the Lebanese should get rid of Hezbollah, afterall it's only a few terrorists. Any dead lebanese can thank Islamic terrorists for their deaths. You don't want to be bombed ? Then don't allow Islamic terrorists to operate in your country and be a part of your government. The consequences can be deadly.

     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
THEY AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO HIDE AMONG CHILDREN ANY LONGER. GIVEN THEIR TRACK RECORD, IF CHILDREN ARE IN THE WAY, THE CHILDREN WILL DIE TOO.

If their children die, the only people that these "combatants" can blame are themselves.
You just don't get it, do you. It's not acceptable to take out civilians like unarmed children just because there are "terrorists" behind them. The Israeli Army has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population. That means waiting until the terrorist is in a place where you aren't going to kill civilians. Besides, you seem to think that only the terrorists' children are dying. That is plainly not the case. Innocent people driving on the road from Southern to Northern Lebanon have been killed. Children whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time are being killed and not through necessity but for convenience.

Let me ask you this, why do you think the Brits and the French and the Spanish didn't use these techniques against their terrorist threats? I'll tell, first because it's immoral and it's a war crime and committing war crimes undermines your moral high ground in responding. Second, and more importantly, because it doesn't work. Because collectively punishing civilians makes more enemies than it destroys.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by PacHead
If it's only a few terrorists, then surely the Lebanese should get rid of Hezbollah, afterall it's only a few terrorists. Any dead lebanese can thank Islamic terrorists for their deaths. You don't want to be bombed ? Then don't allow Islamic terrorists to operate in your country and be a part of your government. The consequences can be deadly.

Practically every country on the planet has Islamic terrorists operating inside it. That doesn't give anyone the right to take military action against that state!
     
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
You just don't get it, do you. It's not acceptable to take out civilians like unarmed children just because there are "terrorists" behind them. The Israeli Army has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population. That means waiting until the terrorist is in a place where you aren't going to kill civilians. Besides, you seem to think that only the terrorists' children are dying. That is plainly not the case. Innocent people driving on the road from Southern to Northern Lebanon have been killed. Children whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time are being killed and not through necessity but for convenience.

Let me ask you this, why do you think the Brits and the French and the Spanish didn't use these techniques against their terrorist threats? I'll tell, first because it's immoral and it's a war crime and committing war crimes undermines your moral high ground in responding. Second, and more importantly, because it doesn't work. Because collectively punishing civilians makes more enemies than it destroys.
You just don't get it do you.

Israel does everything possible to MINIMISE the deaths of children and civilians, while still responding to and minimising threats.

Israel has retained the moral high ground, despite your interests in seeing it sullied. Perhaps since we're talking about morals, you examine your own.
     
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
Practically every country on the planet has Islamic terrorists operating inside it. That doesn't give anyone the right to take military action against that state!
This was worth quoting and bringing attention to. If that is true, and the state has those Islamic terrorists as elected officials, what differentiates their actions from those of the state?

HizbAllah is in Lebanonian parliament. Hamas is the majority of the PA govt. What do I use on my secret decoder ring to tell me when it's a state action and when it isn't?
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
You just don't get it, do you. It's not acceptable to take out civilians like unarmed children just because there are "terrorists" behind them. The Israeli Army has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population. That means waiting until the terrorist is in a place where you aren't going to kill civilians. Besides, you seem to think that only the terrorists' children are dying. That is plainly not the case. Innocent people driving on the road from Southern to Northern Lebanon have been killed. Children whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time are being killed and not through necessity but for convenience.

Let me ask you this, why do you think the Brits and the French and the Spanish didn't use these techniques against their terrorist threats? I'll tell, first because it's immoral and it's a war crime and committing war crimes undermines your moral high ground in responding. Second, and more importantly, because it doesn't work. Because collectively punishing civilians makes more enemies than it destroys.
Yes, it is acceptable, and it's the only way to efectively do it, given how they like to use their own kids as protection. It's unfortunate, but they bring it on themselves. Maybe they should remove their government? Maybe they'll finally wake up and realize, "hey, we shouldn't have been carrying out all those suicide bombings, or partying in the street when Jewish children die".

Because those countries are weak? Because, perhaps, their terrorists had more integrity than to hide with children and pregnant women? Do you think that the hatred can get any worse? Are you so ignorant as to believe that Palestinian society can be salvaged given so many generations of hatred?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 12:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
Practically every country on the planet has Islamic terrorists operating inside it. That doesn't give anyone the right to take military action against that state!
Hello, earth to troll. Hezbollah is part of the government.

     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:18 PM
 
You just don't get it, do you. It's not acceptable to take out civilians like unarmed children just because there are "terrorists" behind them. The Israeli Army has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population. That means waiting until the terrorist is in a place where you aren't going to kill civilians. Besides, you seem to think that only the terrorists' children are dying.
Troll, you're a moron if you CHOOSE to ignore FACTS.

So, you're saying, essentially, that it is fine for Israelis to be targeted and killed...but the Israelis should "has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population?"

Oh, and by the way, Israeli children are ALSO dying...

AND before Israel bombed Beirut they dropped leaflets warning the civilians to take cover...

When, EVER, did a freaking Palestinian warn any Israelis ahead of time that they were going to suicide bomb them?

NEVER.


     
Trygve
Mac Enthusiast
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai, UAE
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:26 PM
 
So Hezbollah (not the Lebanese military) takes action against two Israeli soldiers (surely an unjust act), but Israel is ok to respond by attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure in a totally disproportionate way? When will the world start treating Israel as it treats other nations instead of giving Israel a free pass to do whatever it wants?
     
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:29 PM
 
Nice signature. Why not support a Free Lebanon first? One free of Syrian influence? One free of HizbAllah?
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve
So Hezbollah (not the Lebanese military) takes action against two Israeli soldiers (surely an unjust act), but Israel is ok to respond by attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure in a totally disproportionate way? When will the world start treating Israel as it treats other nations instead of giving Israel a free pass to do whatever it wants?
War is war. If somebody punches somebody in the face, that person shouldn't be surprised if the other person punches back even harder. And Israel is taking out infrastructure, infrastructure which is used by Hezbollah.
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Trygve
So Hezbollah (not the Lebanese military) takes action against two Israeli soldiers (surely an unjust act), but Israel is ok to respond by attacking civilians and civilian infrastructure in a totally disproportionate way? When will the world start treating Israel as it treats other nations instead of giving Israel a free pass to do whatever it wants?
Surely it wouldn't have anything to do with decades of this crap? No, never.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Nicko
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cairo
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
You just don't get it do you.

Israel does everything possible to MINIMISE the deaths of children and civilians, while still responding to and minimising threats.

Israel has retained the moral high ground, despite your interests in seeing it sullied. Perhaps since we're talking about morals, you examine your own.

You know, if a country such as South Korea followed the tactics of Israel, there would probably be WWIII by now. Israel can win the war, but they are yet to win any peace.

What is this moral high ground you speak of?
     
Monique
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 03:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
You just don't get it, do you. It's not acceptable to take out civilians like unarmed children just because there are "terrorists" behind them. The Israeli Army has a moral and legal duty to do everything possible to MINIMISE the impact on the civilian population. That means waiting until the terrorist is in a place where you aren't going to kill civilians. Besides, you seem to think that only the terrorists' children are dying. That is plainly not the case. Innocent people driving on the road from Southern to Northern Lebanon have been killed. Children whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time are being killed and not through necessity but for convenience.

Let me ask you this, why do you think the Brits and the French and the Spanish didn't use these techniques against their terrorist threats? I'll tell, first because it's immoral and it's a war crime and committing war crimes undermines your moral high ground in responding. Second, and more importantly, because it doesn't work. Because collectively punishing civilians makes more enemies than it destroys.
And is it the responsabilities of terrorists or Palestanians to make sure that no children die when they put a bomb on a crowded bus?

And who put the children is harms way, their parents?

And the Palestanians terrorist murder people out of what?
     
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 03:15 PM
 
Peace comes when one side can no longer afford to lose.

Negotiations before one party reaches that realization are premature and prolong the misery and deaths.

So Israel can give up and watch the genocide of Jews, or Israel's attackers can accept Israel's existence.

Peace has not been won because Israel stops at winning battles, in the name of minimising death, and because Israel's attackers have no difficulty placing their children on the front lines as soldiers, 12 year olds with kalashnikovs, sending 14 year olds through checkpoints with bomb-belts strapped on.
     
PB2K
Mac Elite
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 03:45 PM
 


the right solution for everyone
{Animated sigs are not allowed.}
     
Shaddim
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 03:55 PM
 
Expand the circle about 10K Kilometers.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 04:10 PM
 
War is war.
That's right, it is.

And you can bet your last dollar that if Iran or Syria had a suicide bomber come into our country and detonate a suicide bomb and Iran or Syria admitted it that the United States would declare war immediately and attack the country that did it.

Israel has shown remarkable restraint up until now.

It's truly been admirable.

They have a right to defend their country.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 04:14 PM
 
Oh, and what the Palestinians don't realize is how close the United States is to Israel.

Just as I would be proud to send my children to defend our country here (United States) I would also be proud to send them to Israel.

This country stands behind Israel all of the way.

     
Nicko
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cairo
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Peace comes when one side can no longer afford to lose.
Did you just make that up?
Peace is only realized when grievances are addressed and compromises are made by all parties.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:18 PM
 
Make no mistake that Iran and Syria are behind this. They are using Israel to get to the United States...

We should take Iran out, period, then there will be no more Hezbollah.

     
Monique
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Make no mistake that Iran and Syria are behind this. They are using Israel to get to the United States...

We should take Iran out, period, then there will be no more Hezbollah.

Lots of times I agree with you and see that you have some goodness in you.

But, give me a break; the U.S. cannot control Iraq they are dying by hundred and you are talking about invading Iran. On how many fronts do you want to fight??

And on more fronts you are, you are likely to lose it all.
     
vmarks
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Up In The Air
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Nicko
Did you just make that up?
Peace is only realized when grievances are addressed and compromises are made by all parties.
Please, cite examples in history that support your contention?

My contention is well-supported.

The Japanese surrendured to the Allies when they could no longer afford to lose.
The Germans surrendured, and Hitler committed suicide when he could no longer stand to lose.

That is how peace comes about. Having negotiations and compromises before one party has reached the point I describe is premature and prolongs thing.

How so? So far the evidence coming out of all prior negotiations has been that the Palestinians have taken Israel's offers without giving anything of their own. They then go home and claim victory for their violence by getting compromise and not having to make any. And they won't be prepared to make any until they have found where they can no longer afford to lose.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.
     
Monique
Mac Elite
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: back home
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Please, cite examples in history that support your contention?

My contention is well-supported.

The Japanese surrendured to the Allies when they could no longer afford to lose.
The Germans surrendured, and Hitler committed suicide when he could no longer stand to lose.

That is how peace comes about. Having negotiations and compromises before one party has reached the point I describe is premature and prolongs thing.

.
I can of agree with Japan; but, most of all they were afraid of being exterminated. If they only knew that the U.S. had only 2 bombs.

As for Germany, Hitler commited suicide first, then the reich marshall surrended. Hitler lived in a fantasy world and thought until the end that they could win; but just in case that the Russians could put their hands on him, he decided to do the cowardly thing; he was one of the most cowardly person in history.

There was no peace, but a clear victory.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 05:55 PM
 
Well, now we have a lot more than "2 bombs."

     
Kerrigan
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 06:52 PM
 
Now that Israel has been baited into this conflict, it's high time for America and Israel to destroy Iran's nuclear weapons program.

This doesn't have to turn into a 'world war 3' if we can hurry up and eradicate some of the tensions which have been simmering over the past half century.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:01 PM
 


I agree.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Yes, it is acceptable, and it's the only way to efectively do it, given how they like to use their own kids as protection. It's unfortunate, but they bring it on themselves. Maybe they should remove their government? Maybe they'll finally wake up and realize, "hey, we shouldn't have been carrying out all those suicide bombings, or partying in the street when Jewish children die".
Well done. You just restated the concept of collective punishment - the barbaric practice that civilized people abolished a long time ago.
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Are you so ignorant as to believe that Palestinian society can be salvaged given so many generations of hatred?
Replace "Palestinian" with "Jewish" and set your computer's clock to 1939. Ironic isn't it? A country was established to right a genocide and now supporters of that country call for genocide to be committed in its name.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Peace comes when one side can no longer afford to lose.
How does the saying go? Killing for peace is like f*cking for virginity. This idea that you will be able to beat Palestinians into submission, as if they were some kind of wild animal that just needs a good breaking-in, is precisely why Israel hasn't had peace in 50 years.
     
Kerrigan
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Apr 2005
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:26 PM
 
Then what do you suggest Troll? Let Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and Iran continue their stated agenda to destroy the Zionist regime? Tell Israel to do nothing? The provocation will never end that way. Your comparison of Palestinians to animals is interesting though, they, as well as the aforementioned allies of their cause, have a bloodthirst which one normally does not find in civilized man.
     
greenG4
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cardboard Box
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
How does the saying go? Killing for peace is like f*cking for virginity. This idea that you will be able to beat Palestinians into submission, as if they were some kind of wild animal that just needs a good breaking-in, is precisely why Israel hasn't had peace in 50 years.
No, the reason they haven't had peace is because Israel allows them time to recover, regroup and attack again.
<Witty comment here>
www.healthwebit.com
     
PacHead
Baninated
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Capital of the World
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
How does the saying go? Killing for peace is like f*cking for virginity. .
It's a dumb saying and it has no bearing upon reality. Killing the enemy has worked in the past, and I'm sure that when enough terrorists are dead, they will either give up their Jihad against Israel and infidels, or they can all be wiped out, it's their decision. Either way, they lose.

     
deomacius
Senior User
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oregon
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 13, 2006, 07:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
You just restated the concept of collective punishment - the barbaric practice that civilized people abolished a long time ago.
And how would you propose they handle people that aren't behaving in a civilized manner? You think you can talk down someone who's bent on violence against them? Ha! Then police shouldn't carry guns either. They should deal with EVERY conflict with talk and threat of removal of privileges.

No, the fact of the matter is that there ARE times when violence and show of force are necessary. Regardless of how hard we try to get away from that, it's just a fact of life. The more we back away from it, the more empowered someone else is to use that against you.

You reap what you sow.
     
Troll
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Feb 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 04:47 AM
 
You've all effectively asked me the same question. One I've answered before. I have no problem with pursuing terrorists nor do I have a problem with two military forces battling it out. But pursue the TERRORISTS themselves and use your military in accordance with the laws of war. Israel isn't doing that. Israel is killing and harming people that were not involved in the taking of their soldiers; it is purposefully attacking civilians because it intends to make THEM pay for the acts of Hezbollah and Hamas militants. Not only could Israel have gone after their soldier in Gaza without cutting water and electricity to 800,000 people, not only could it have gone after the two soldiers Hezbollah took without killing 45 Lebanese, it had a DUTY and an OBLIGATION both moral and legal to minimise the impact on civilians. It should, at the very least, have put emergency generators into Gaza. Not only is Israel's action immoral and illegal but it's ineffective because every innocent person you harm through state-sponsored terrorism spawns another terrorist.

The only defense you people are putting up is to say all of the Lebanese people and all of the people in Gaza are involved. That is clearly and demonstrably false and it's precisely the reasoning that Al Qaeda used to justify killing innocent people in New York, precisely the reasoning that Hamas and Hezbollah use for killing innocent people in Israel.
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:26 AM
 
Troll:

Answer this question: Do you think it is acceptable that the Palestinians - in the Gaza strip and coming in from Lebanon - routinely go into Israel and blow up INNOCENT Israelis and tourists in restaurants and hotels and buses? It's been going on for YEARS and there is no end in sight.

How about this:

The Palestinians are killing and harming people that were not involved in the taking of their soldiers; it is purposefully attacking civilians because it intends to make THEM pay for the acts of Israeli soldiers. Not only could the Palestinians have gone after their soldier...the Palestinians had a DUTY and an OBLIGATION both moral and legal to minimise the impact on civilians.
That is YOUR statement only having reversed it and used it to apply to the innocent Israelis who have been routinely targeted by Palestinians FOR YEARS.

What I and others here are saying, Troll, is that after YEARS of trying to do things "nicely" through talks and peace negotiations, it has become clear to Israel that acting nicely and keeping to themselves is not working.

It is not working because you have people like the Palestinians and Iran who say, "Israel has no right to exist."

What the hell do you expect Israel to do?

SERIOUSLY?

WHAT THE HELL SHOULD ISRAEL DO?

ANSWER THE QUESTION.

Keep on letting Palestinians get in and blow up Israelis?

Because that is what you seem to think is the only choice that the Israelis should make.

And to that we all say, "No, Israel has a RIGHT to go on the offensive at some point."

That point is now.

Lastly, as I said in another post, the Israelis made an attempt to warn the civilians that strikes were coming through announcements and leaflets dropped.

When was the last time a Palestinian suicide bomber ever let innocent Israelis know ahead of time that they were going to bomb their hotel, bus, or restaurant?

NEVER.

     
Taliesin
Mac Elite
Join Date: Apr 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
If that "happens" we know who has been behind these kidnappings. And that won't be Hamas nor Iran. Israelis will need to look closer at home to find those guilty.
Huh? I don't get it, Hamas' military wing itself has said that they have captured the first israeli soldier and Hezbollah has said that they have captured the two other israeli soldiers, and want to use them to press free palestinian and lebanese/syrian prisoners. So why are you going the route of conspiracy-theories?

Taliesin
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:34 AM
 
This is the best summary, TROLL, that was writtten by Mort Zuckerman:

Israel's last resort

After withdrawal, Hamas and Hezbollah
have waged endless, ruthless war

Eleven months ago, Israel withdrew from every last inch of the Gaza Strip. They dismantled all military bases, turned over functioning greenhouses that could employ 4,000 people, expelled all 7,500 Israeli settlers at a huge financial and political cost and declared the lines that divide Israel from Gaza to be an international frontier, making Gaza the first independent Palestinian territory ever.

Everyone's expectation was that the Palestinians, so treated, would show the world what they could achieve with freedom. Alas, they have shown all too well. Not one day of peace has followed.

The pattern was set on the very day of Israel's pullout, when Palestinian forces fired rockets into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. The final straw was the tunneling under the border with Israel, the attack on an Israeli tank and the point-blank murder of two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping of a third.

A few days later, inspired by the rhetorical threats of Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Hezbollah of Lebanon joined Hamas by attacking Israel from the north. They killed eight Israeli soldiers, kidnapped two others and began firing rockets into Israel.

The Palestinians have given the lie to virtually all the scenarios so hopefully envisaged by their friends. They did not construct schools, roads and hospitals; they made no effort to turn Gaza into a thriving state. They elected a radical Islamic Hamas government. They permitted the smuggling of huge quantities of weapons and terrorists while creating new bases for terror. Palestinian society has descended ever more into advanced anarchy.

At first, the Israelis tried nonlethal deterrence - diplomatic warnings, then sonic booms from jets. They failed. It was a sad demonstration of the truth in the metaphor that in the Middle East, the law of wild nature applies: An animal that is perceived as weak invites attack. The Israelis fell back on targeted assassinations against terrorist leadership, despite the unavoidable risk that nonterrorists might be killed since the terrorists - cynically and callously - hide among civilians.

Some suggest Israel should ignore the Hamas and Hezbollah rockets because they are puny and erratic. That's easy to say from an armchair, but every one of the rockets is intended to kill or maim as many Israeli civilians as possible. The Israeli town of Sderot lost 13 people from rocket fire. That city is now living under siege, and now the Palestinians have begun firing longer-range rockets that have reached larger cities.

The last thing Israel wanted to do was get involved again in Gaza, much less in Lebanon, but Hamas and Hezbollah gave them no choice. Who would doubt the U.S. response if rockets were raining from across the Mexican border into neighboring American cities or Canadian forces simultaneously killed and kidnapped Americans on U.S. soil? And who but Israel would be shipping basic foodstuffs, medicines and chlorine containers for purifying drinking water to avoid a humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

And what about Mahmoud Abbas, the hope of the West? Sadly, what we have witnessed is the failure of Abbas to pressure the Hamas government. He did not meet the commitment he gave to Israeli officials to muster the forces for a house-to-house search to locate the abducted soldier. And he agreed to a version of Hamas' so-called prisoners' document - which reopens the most vital questions about Israel's right to exist and endorses terrorism and violence that should have been eliminated by now.

The Oslo agreement called for an end to terror. The prisoners' document is a manifesto for terror. It calls for continuing violence and for "popular resistance" against the occupation "in all its forms, places and policies," and "by all means," language long recognized as code for legitimizing the murder of Israelis.

Most critically, it advocates the right of return for some 4 million Palestinian refugees, the descendants of the 700,000 Arabs who fled during the 1948 War, primarily at the behest of their own leaders. These refugees are now proposed to be returned to pre-1967 Israel, virtually putting the Jews into a minority in their own country - the very situation that the UN ruled out in deciding the original partition of Palestine.

It is clear again that the core of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute stems not from Israel's unwillingness to compromise but from the nature of its adversary. Most fair-minded observers share the Israeli conclusion that there is no Palestinian partner for peace. The Middle East equation could not be starker or more depressing. It reveals once again that Hamas and the Palestinians, now joined by Hezbollah, their partners in terrorism and murder, both armed and financed by Iran, wish to get rid of Israel.

This will be a "long war" in which victory will be the culmination of a series of unavoidable catastrophes.
All you have to do is read it twice and you will understand that Israel has ALREADY given much more than they should have.

Now is the time to take back what they willingly - and peacefully - gave to the Palestinians and to stop letting themselves be battered and abused.

Fortunately, the rest of the world, the CIVILIZED world, agrees with Israel.
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
You just don't get it do you.

Israel does everything possible to MINIMISE the deaths of children and civilians, while still responding to and minimising threats.

Israel has retained the moral high ground, despite your interests in seeing it sullied. Perhaps since we're talking about morals, you examine your own.
Complete and utter BS.

Dropping a 250kg bomb on a house containing several families because you suspect one of the inhabitants to be a terrorist supporter is not trying to minimise the deaths of children and civilians. Killing over a 100 innocent civilians in a clearly marked UN refugee camp in Qana is not trying to minimise collateral damage.

But keep living in your little bubble. The more you talk like that the easier it is to get more supporters for the Palestinian cause. And soon that will come back to bite you in the arse. So I thank you for being out of touch with reality.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks
Nice signature. Why not support a Free Lebanon first? One free of Syrian influence? One free of HizbAllah?
They are called Hizbollah. But thanks for showing what your true intentions are. Everything the US hates you link to Islam.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
von Wrangell
Professional Poster
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Under the shade of Swords
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cody Dawg
Oh, and what the Palestinians don't realize is how close the United States is to Israel.

Just as I would be proud to send my children to defend our country here (United States) I would also be proud to send them to Israel.

This country stands behind Israel all of the way.

You really don't think they realise that?

Why the fekk do you think the US is targeted by terrorists in the first place!

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
yakkiebah
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dar al-Harb
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
They are called Hizbollah. But thanks for showing what your true intentions are. Everything the US hates you link to Islam.
Hizbollah has nothing to do with Islam? You do know what their name and agenda stands for right?
     
Cody Dawg  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Working. What about you?
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:54 AM
 
von Wrangell:

Why don't you go back and post at one of your other anti-Semitic terrorist-friendly sites?

You are obviously some kind of terrorist sympathizer who is happy when Jews die.

If you feel so strongly why don't you go join your comrades in "Hizbollah?"



GOOD-BYE von Wrong-allah.

     
yakkiebah
Mac Elite
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Dar al-Harb
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 14, 2006, 05:58 AM
 

Hezbollah fighters salute during a graduation ceremony on "Martyr's Day" in Beirut November 11 2001.

Israel is going after these dudes, quick scream genocide!
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:29 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,