[Monique]

As long as Palestine will only foster terrorists in all its forms, women, children, and men; Israel should have the upper hand.

Again what would the Palestiniens do with all that territories. Because all they do now, is complained, prepare bombs, the women have to do all the work, like transporting bombs, etc. Their sole reason for living is the destruction of all Jews from the planet.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Monique

As long as Palestine will only foster terrorists in all its forms, women, children, and men; Israel should have the upper hand.

Again what would the Palestiniens do with all that territories. Because all they do now, is complained, prepare bombs, the women have to do all the work, like transporting bombs, etc. Their sole reason for living is the destruction of all Jews from the planet.

Yeah, that's all they do all day, Monique the brain surgeon - foster terrorists and make bombs. All 4 million of them are constantly involved in terrorist action against Israel. You'd think with that many people dedicated to the cause of terrorism, they'd have more success.

You know what it's called when you attach negative attributes to people just because they have a certain nationality or race?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I have to ask in return, why hasn't that step been done before now? The EU and IMF have both considered the problem of money for aid being used for weapons and violence by the Palestinians- what kept them from implementing the answer you propose?

Why do you think this isn't already being done? You might want to read up on how EU aid is distributed.

Besides, as long as the US is arming Israel, I don't see any valid reason why someone shouldn't be arming the Palestinians. Ideally, I'd like to see sanctions against BOTH sides but as I said, the aim of sanctions should be to put both parties on equal footing so as to force them to deal with each other. I don't support military sanctions just against Palestinians.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Monique

As long as Palestine will only foster terrorists in all its forms, women, children, and men; Israel should have the upper hand.

Again what would the Palestiniens do with all that territories. Because all they do now, is complained, prepare bombs, the women have to do all the work, like transporting bombs, etc. Their sole reason for living is the destruction of all Jews from the planet.

Can't help but agree with Troll on this one.

Monique, your post is riddled with prejudice and ignorance.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

You know what it's called when you attach negative attributes to people just because they have a certain nationality or race?

It's the truth, the palestinians voted for the hamas terrorists, that's what they wanted. And now gaza is under seige, I'm so surprised. I just saw a palestinian terrorist building getting blown up on tv.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Can't help but agree with Troll on this one.

Monique, your post is riddled with prejudice and ignorance.

No it's not, it is extremely ignorant not to recognize that that is exactly what hamas wishes for.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by PacHead

No it's not, it is extremely ignorant not to recognize that that is exactly what hamas wishes for.

Hamas is not "all the Palestinians".

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Hamas is not "all the Palestinians".

This is true. However, a majority of Palestinians did select Hamas to represent them.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Hamas is not "all the Palestinians".

Hamas is the government. Hamas represents ALL palestinians, and that's what the people want.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

This is true. However, a majority of Palestinians did select Hamas to represent them.

Exactly.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Hamas is the government. Hamas represents ALL palestinians, and that's what the people want.

Pitfalls are as deep as you lay them.

So do logical pitfalls. Pachead, you fell in one real deep. Hamas may have been elected, but only fools would take that vote as unilateral and a monopoly of mind. Sounds like Hamas was the party to vote for that presents the strongest opinions, not unlike Americans voting for Bush at a challenging times, where Kerry was only a weakest opportunity.

But feel free to embrace your usual generalizations.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

This is true. However, a majority of Palestinians did select Hamas to represent them.

You are 100% happy with Harper?

I don't believe so, for the simple reason that any democratic process is always a compromise with one's own beliefs.

I do not believe that all Palestinians believe in the benefits of terrorism. Even less; those who would practice it.

Monique's post contends that every Palestinian is a terrorist in potential. Not so.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Sounds like Hamas was the party to vote for that presents the strongest opinions, not unlike Americans voting for Bush at a challenging times, where Kerry was only a weakest opportunity.

Yeah, and the party platform of hamas is basically, let's kill joooos, that's the opinions that they strongly agreed with and that's what the palestinians voted for. Palestinian infrastructure is getting blown to hell at this moment, I'd venture to guess that they made a stupid choice.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

Monique's post contends that every Palestinian is a terrorist in potential. Not so.

The majority are.

[ink]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I'd venture to guess that they made a stupid choice.

That's an understatement.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by PacHead

And my question still remains. Can Swizterland do anything about it ? Are the Swiss powerful, anybody could kick their asses probably, when was the last time they even fought a war ?

Quick correction, for reference:

Switzerland could kick anyone's ass, but only on their own turf. Their defence is second to none, but their offence sucks.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

You are 100% happy with Harper?

I don't believe so, for the simple reason that any democratic process is always a compromise with one's own beliefs.

I do not believe that all Palestinians believe in the benefits of terrorism. Even less; those who would practice it.

Monique's post contends that every Palestinian is a terrorist in potential. Not so.

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no59.pdf

Read the results of this poll of Palestinians. A clear majority believes that kidnapping and violence is the correct course of action.

Nearly half of those surveyed also believe that while correct, it will end badly for them.

You're casting your wishes upon Palestinians, and ignores what they say.
It also ignores the fact that Palestinian children are taught and encouraged to engage in violence and die a martyr. It ignores the fact that one of the Palestinian national heroes is a mother whose boys all commmitted suicide bombings. These things mean something.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by vmarks

http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2006/no59.pdf

Read the results of this poll of Palestinians. A clear majority believes that kidnapping and violence is the correct course of action.

Sure.

However, between 67.6 to 70.7 % of the sample said agreed with:

"No release of the abducted soldier until the release of Palestinian prisoners"

So clearly, the people polled seem to keep in mind that the kidnapping is a retribution for prior actions done by Israel, making it legitimate in their mind.

Nearly half of those surveyed also believe that while correct, it will end badly for them.

I love your quotes, because they always lead to your usual theories. Here they are:

1)

You're casting your wishes upon Palestinians, and ignores what they say.

2)

It also ignores the fact that Palestinian children are taught and encouraged to engage in violence and die a martyr.

3)

It ignores the fact that one of the Palestinian national heroes is a mother whose boys all commmitted suicide bombings.

I have no doubt of the veracity of these words. Whether they apply to all Palestinians, I do not believe so.

These things mean something.

Yes, they do. The poll means what you want it to mean when you quote the parts that support your own piece of mind vmarks.


I will tell you what I think vmarks.

I don't care for Muslims, Christians or Jews as long as they don't bother me. But they all have the same disease: they're the "Chosen Ones". Over the rest of Humanity, those believers look at us as "lost souls", "pagans", "beasts" even, whatever. But one thing is clear: if we are not part of one of the clubs, we won't make it to "paradise", and we're not "in".

All of you people who think you are better than the rest of us because you think you are the "Chosen Ones", I say live up to your illusions, and if you are to fight amongst each other, well then get what you deserve, for all I care, because you are making your own Hell on Earth, all of your doing. The misery you live in, you created, and you deserve it all, terrorists or not. You all think you are better than one another, well then act like warring beasts, as it seems to be the only way for you all to make your point.

You think the Christians are quiet? With the amopunt of racism coming from Christians towards either Jews or Muslim, it is only a question of time for that new ecological niche to be fought for...

I will tell you another thing vmarks.

There is so much money spent in weapons in that area, that the minimum of morals required for a human being should be enough to stop the sales of weapons. But heck, people don't care. The support given in the Middle East is a manna coming from the skies (Heavens?) so it will never stop. And even if it stops, there will be a War to wage elsewhere anyway.

I also think that the support to Israel is totally artificial, fed in the West by the varous lobbies, and the apparent similarities of cultures. On the other hand, the Muslim countries supporting the "destruction" of Israel are operating with the same mode of propaganda. Same difference. You will tell me Israel is better. Maybe in your mind, but not in mine. It's all the same chaos, the same pretention at being better than one another.

The whole political arena is so incestuous that I can't believe something human will ever come out of there.

So thanks for the poll, I knew that, and I am tired of the ongoing generalizations, whether about Christians, Jews or Muslims; they bore me big time, because they never deal with the issues. The only land we own is the one that is under the sole of our shoes. Everything else is nothing but an attempt at getting power over others.

[analogika]

I think that was pretty good.

[vmarks]

Pendergast, in your fascination for religions and 'Chosen People', you forget that I've never made that case.

My case is, Israelis are being butchered over the land under their feet. Hamas makes the case that they won't be happy until there are no Jews and they intend to be not so nice to the Christians, either.

And I don't have to stand by and be quiet as others encourage Hamas to succeed in their aims.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by analogika

I think that was pretty good.

I thought it was pretty laughable. Words mean nothing anymore. War is the solution.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Pendergast, in your fascination for religions and 'Chosen People', you forget that I've never made that case.

My case is, Israelis are being butchered over the land under their feet. Hamas makes the case that they won't be happy until there are no Jews and they intend to be not so nice to the Christians, either.

And I don't have to stand by and be quiet as others encourage Hamas to succeed in their aims.

http://forums.macnn.com/newreply.php...eply&p=3047306

Everyone is being butchered, for the same reasons. Sorry, but I will support only the victims, regardless of the nation or the religion.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I thought it was pretty laughable. Words mean nothing anymore. War is the solution.

Hypothetically, if Israel lost the war, would you pack up and go home? Would you say, "Goobye Jewish State; it was a nice idea"?

I wouldn't. And that's precisely the reason why war is not the solution. Because irrespective of what happens in this war, the end game is always going to be the same - a two state solution with a real Palestinian state with a real army and all of the other things that go with statehood. Why not just sit down like adults right now and flesh it out and screw the naysayers and derailers that assassinate leaders of attack the other side out of provocation?

[ink]

Originally Posted by Troll

Why not just sit down like adults right now and flesh it out and screw the naysayers and derailers that assassinate leaders of attack the other side out of provocation?

I thought that's what Israel was doing when it started giving land back... and then the Palestinians voted in Hamas, refused to recognize Israel as a state and perpetuated actes of violence against Israel. Perhaps only one side of the table is occupied by an adult?

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Troll

Hypothetically, if Israel lost the war, would you pack up and go home? Would you say, "Goobye Jewish State; it was a nice idea"?

If somebody loses a war, then yeah, I would venture to guess that the smart thing to do would be to give up. This is in contrast to retarded Arab countries who have lost countless wars against Israel and they still won't give up because they want to see Israel eliminated, it's their religious duty. They're a bunch of backwards, brainwashed idiots and anything bad that happens is on them.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by PacHead

I thought it was pretty laughable. Words mean nothing anymore. War is the solution.

I find you pretty disgusting, to be honest.

I think it has to do with the fact that I live in a nation that, born out of a pretty atrocious history, was founded not on the idea of a people, but on a political stance. One that defines our nation as contrary to everything you seem to endorse as policy.

Not dissimilar to what your great nation was founded upon, once upon a time.

The Americans helped us set up the Constitution back in 1949, btw.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by analogika

I find you pretty disgusting, to be honest.

Here, take this pill, it might help with your medical condition.






What is disgusting is how anybody, anywhere can have the nerve to defend Islamic terrorists.

[analogika]

I don't think I've ever done that.


Also, there is a difference (that escapes many people apparently) between explaining and excusing something.

For example, knowing that somebody was beaten heavily as a child does not excuse him from responsibilty for his actions if he turns out to be a child molestor. That's despicable and needs to be punished.

However, knowing that might help you reduce the causes - awareness programs on domestic violence, etc.

That, in your eyes, of course, is "child molestor appeasement".


(BTW, your image links are broken.)

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by analogika

(BTW, your image links are broken.)

That's strange, because I'm on a different machine now than when I first posted that and it shows up fine here.

As for the mideast situation, war is clearly the answer, that's what the terrorists want, so that's what they should get.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by PacHead

That's strange, because I'm on a different machine now than when I first posted that and it shows up fine here.

As for the mideast situation, war is clearly the answer, that's what the terrorists want, so that's what they should get.

Do you always give terrorists what they want?

I think the problem is that, denying them what they want allows them to run roughshod over us all.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by PacHead

Here, take this pill, it might help with your medical condition.






What is disgusting is how anybody, anywhere can have the nerve to defend Islamic terrorists.

In your xanax-less head, yes, that makes sense.

Now I would not recommend suicide, but those Xanax really seem like food for thougths for you.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Do you always give terrorists what they want?

I think the problem is that, denying them what they want allows them to run roughshod over us all.

In my opinion, they will have to be faced sooner or later, it's only a matter of timing. I'm not Israeli, so I'm not going to pretend to tell Israel what to do, but no matter what they do, they will still keep getting attacked. If Israel feels that this is the right time to make a stand against the terrorists, then who am I to disagree ?

I think it would be great if the US became involved and started to bomb Iran for example. Much of the mideast is a mess and I'm not at all opposed to striking at terrorists wherever they might be.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by PacHead

In my opinion, they will have to be faced sooner or later, it's only a matter of timing. I'm not Israeli, so I'm not going to pretend to tell Israel what to do, but no matter what they do, they will still keep getting attacked. If Israel feels that this is the right time to make a stand against the terrorists, then who am I to disagree ?

I think it would be great if the US became involved and started to bomb Iran for example. Much of the mideast is a mess and I'm not at all opposed to striking at terrorists wherever they might be.

I agree. Instead of avoiding WW III, let's make certain it really happens with 1 billion deaths instead of the few hundred millions of WW II.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

I agree. Instead of avoiding WW III, let's make certain it really happens with 1 billion deaths instead of the few hundred millions of WW II.

Whatever is required.

[analogika]

You're stupid enough to believe you would win.

Unfathomable.

[PacHead]

Originally Posted by analogika

You're stupid enough to believe you would win.

Unfathomable.

The world has no choice really, the Islamofascists will be defeated.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Troll

What do you think Palestinians are saying right now - as they sit in 40 degree heat with no electricity or water. What do you think they're saying right now with missiles and tanks and bullets at every corner? What do you think they're saying as THEIR friends and family are harmed and killed by Israelis?

HOW ABOUT:
"Electing, harboring, encouraging and fostering terrorists is a really BAAAAAAAAAD idea!"

"Allowing nitwit terrorist groups and terrorists who pretend to be diplomats to steal all our money and use it to line their pockets and send their wives on Paris shopping sprees while we live in squalor was a really BAAAAAAAAAD idea!"

"Hey, we should have taken the chances to have a Palestinian state when it's been handed to us, rather than being greedy and rejecting it so we could start wars to push Israel into the sea... these were really BAAAAAAAAD ideas!"

"Perhaps we should take a page from Ghandi and others, and NEVER resort to violence against Israel- if we would have done that, rather than elect, enable, encourage, harbor, support, and fund terrorists, we'd by now have our own state where people could lead normal healthy lives and Israel would have no reason to bother us."

"Hey, you know, all this 'let's push Israel into the sea' and sending over our sons and daughters to blow up thier sons and daughters in pizza parlors and nightclubs are really, really BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD ideas! Look at the world of total $HIT that approach has brought us, while the nitwit terrorists and dictators that encourage it, steal all the money, squander the opportunities to build our own state and live high off the hog at our expense. Maybe it's about time we rejected that idiotic approach, turned in all the terrorists and dictators who bring this $hit down on us, and took it from there! These might actually be really GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD ideas!"

This is what reasonable people would have been saying a LONG time ago.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

HOW ABOUT:
"Electing, harboring, encouraging and fostering terrorists is a really BAAAAAAAAAD idea!"

That's how America responded to 9/11 right? They questioned their democratic choices. Or did they harden their stance?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

My case is, Israelis are being butchered over the land under their feet. Hamas makes the case that they won't be happy until there are no Jews and they intend to be not so nice to the Christians, either.

You keep saying this but when asked to back it up you magically disappear.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by ink

I thought that's what Israel was doing when it started giving land back... and then the Palestinians voted in Hamas, refused to recognize Israel as a state and perpetuated actes of violence against Israel. Perhaps only one side of the table is occupied by an adult?

Has Israel recognized Palestine as a state?

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

HOW ABOUT:
"Electing, harboring, encouraging and fostering terrorists is a really BAAAAAAAAAD idea!"

"Allowing nitwit terrorist groups and terrorists who pretend to be diplomats to steal all our money and use it to line their pockets and send their wives on Paris shopping sprees while we live in squalor was a really BAAAAAAAAAD idea!"

"Hey, we should have taken the chances to have a Palestinian state when it's been handed to us, rather than being greedy and rejecting it so we could start wars to push Israel into the sea... these were really BAAAAAAAAD ideas!"

"Perhaps we should take a page from Ghandi and others, and NEVER resort to violence against Israel- if we would have done that, rather than elect, enable, encourage, harbor, support, and fund terrorists, we'd by now have our own state where people could lead normal healthy lives and Israel would have no reason to bother us."

"Hey, you know, all this 'let's push Israel into the sea' and sending over our sons and daughters to blow up thier sons and daughters in pizza parlors and nightclubs are really, really BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD ideas! Look at the world of total $HIT that approach has brought us, while the nitwit terrorists and dictators that encourage it, steal all the money, squander the opportunities to build our own state and live high off the hog at our expense. Maybe it's about time we rejected that idiotic approach, turned in all the terrorists and dictators who bring this $hit down on us, and took it from there! These might actually be really GOOOOOOOOOOOOOD ideas!"

This is what reasonable people would have been saying a LONG time ago.

I'm not saying that is wrong in any way but I'd like to ask you. Why is only one of the sides required to do that? Why not use the same standards for both?

Ah, nevermind. We already know the answer. Palestinians (or just Muslims) BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD, Israelis (or just Jews) GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD. World is black and white.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Troll

That's how America responded to 9/11 right? They questioned their democratic choices. Or did they harden their stance?

Isn't there another thread about the uselessness of the relativist worldview, and basically how silly it is? While people are dying, for real, due to really bad ideas they've chosen for themselves, it serves no purpose to make silly moral relativist comparisons that have no meaning in reality.

But hey, if it makes some Palestinian feel good sitting in his “40 degree heat”, no water or electricity with bombs and tanks rocking his neighborhood to THINK that some moral relativist nonsense spouted on his behalf changes anything for him, and makes him feel on par with his counterpart American sitting in an air-conditioned home, running water, electricity, etc. WITHOUT guns and bombs rocking his neighborhood, then so be it. More power to 'em... I guess. Personally, I just don't see any real world use in such nonsense.

[analogika]

Because moral absolutism has ever done more for humanity than result in killing...

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

I'm not saying that is wrong in any way but I'd like to ask you. Why is only one of the sides required to do that? Why not use the same standards for both?

The average Israeli citizen doesn't teach their kids to be suicide bombers, doesn't harbor or fund or elect terrorists, and doesn't sit in a hovel with rockets and bombs going off all around them as a result of retaliation for doing those things.

To the side side that's sitting in "40 degree heat" no running water, no electricity, terrorists nutjobs and dictators running rampant and squandering what little you have... I'd say it's a hell of a LOT more urgent for that side to choose to set a higher standard for themselves, and hold to it. No excuses.

Here's a bit of a reality check: you're NOT actually on par with your adversary, nowhere near it. HE WILL kill you eventually if you keep ****ing with him. Fact. It's therefore, in YOUR best interest to cease and desist far MORE than it is in his- though of course it is in both interests. But you'll be dead a LOT quicker, so assume (correctly) it's more urgent for you. Even if there was moral equivalence between the sides (there isn't) one side has the clear upper hand. So the standards aren't the same.

Or.... you can continue to live in a fantasy world. Sure, sure, Israel will allow itself to be pushed into the sea, and the response to suicide bombs, missile attacks and kidnapping the 10,000,001st time you try those will somehow NOT be tanks, guns, bombs, death and mayhem. Sure thing. Run with that notion all you like.

Just be advised: until that fantasy somehow comes true... don't hold your breath in the meantime waiting for running water, electricity, safety, peace, SANITY, etc. etc. Oh, and you ARE likely to die sooner, rather than later too.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

Isn't there another thread about the uselessness of the relativist worldview, and basically how silly it is? While people are dying, for real, due to really bad ideas they've chosen for themselves, it serves no purpose to make silly moral relativist comparisons that have no meaning in reality.

It has nothing to do with moral relativism and everything to do with human nature. When you start beating a people up, they don't assume you might have a point and question their motives. They band together and they defend themselves. Violence breeds fundamentalism. When something like 9/11 happens, people rally together around the ideas that "brought the violence on them". Their stance hardens; it does not soften. If you can't see how that happened in the US, then you're blind.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE

The average Israeli citizen doesn't teach their kids to be suicide bombers, doesn't harbor or fund or elect terrorists, and doesn't sit in a hovel with rockets and bombs going off all around them as a result of retaliation for doing those things.

Of course not - because Israel is the occupier and the oppressor. When the founding fathers were teaching their kids to attack the Brits, do you think the Brits were doing the same back in England? No, of course not. The Americans were fighting for freedom.Freedom was the number one thing they wanted and they were prepared to give anything for it. So they fought and they taught their kids to fight for it. The Brits already had freedom.

The same applies to Palestine. Israelis have other things to think about. Like sending their kids to school, going to work, making decisions about what car to buy. Thoughts of fighting for their freedom are not all consuming. With most Palestinians having no jobs and suffering the effects of apartheid, they don't have much else to think about except how Israel is keeping them down.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Troll

Of course not - because Israel is the occupier and the oppressor.

Nonsense.

When the founding fathers were teaching their kids to attack the Brits,

TOTAL nonsense, the founding fathers didn't send their kids out to attack the Brits, and they didn't go after the Brit's innocent wives and kids with suicide bombs because they were affraid to don actual uniforms, take up arms, and take on an armed adult military force just like themselves.

Trying to compare the Palestinians with the US Revolution is a CLASSIC example of utter dip$hit moral relativism. Not only inaccurate in every way, but completely useless.

Israelis have other things to think about. Like sending their kids to school, going to work, making decisions about what car to buy. Thoughts of fighting for their freedom are not all consuming.

Wow, you've stumbled onto something here, and maybe eventually, you'll connect the dots. THIS is the crux of why the Isrealis will never be defeated.

With most Palestinians having no jobs and suffering the effects of *thier own actions*, they don't have much else to think about except how Israel is keeping them down.

This is the crux of why the Palestinians will always lose.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Has Israel recognized Palestine as a state?

Israel has tried to do that repeatedly.

It would help matters if the PA would declare they were a state. They prefer to be stateless, it helps the claims of victimhood. This is the only conclusion that can be drawn from their repeated refusals to negotiate a state in peace talks, and the refusal to declare a state in the land they now govern.

Shoot, the governing party in Israel today, Kadima, is founded on the principle of establishing a Palestinian state.