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Opinion: four myths about the iPad Pro
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NewsPoster
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Nov 25, 2015, 09:10 AM
 
It surprises me that a lot of people have been quick to highlight what they think are apparently major shortcomings with the iPad Pro, seemingly writing it off before most of them have even seen one in person. While it may or may not be another hit product from Apple, there are a couple of aspects about it that have been widely misunderstood. One centers around the question of whether or not it is a genuine notebook replacement, and the other centers around its "inability" to run full desktop versions of apps, like Adobe Photoshop, for example. Have people learnt nothing from Apple's recent history?

A lot of criticism that has been leveled at the 12-inch Retina MacBook for example, and the iPad Pro seems to stem from the fact that these, for most power users, not devices that can be your only computing device. That they are not for everyone, for one reason or another, seems to have caused undue consternation.

However, rather than focus on whether or not users can rely on just one of these devices for their entire workflow is really missing the point, as well as their cost, relative to other products on the market (some of which Apple makes itself), which are either cheaper, or the same price, but arguably more capable overall. What critics should be focusing on is what they can do for certain sets of users. When looked at these devices through this lens, they make much more sense, and will offer these users undoubted appeal.

For me, the 12-inch Retina MacBook is the MacBook I have been waiting for Apple to make. It gives me the capabilities of OS X in an ultralight and compact (tablet-like) form factor, that covers all the various aspects of my workflow that I need when I am away from my 27-inch 5K Retina iMac to get the job done for MacNN. The single USB-C port can be a little inconvenient at times, yes ... but it wouldn't be as compact and ultra-slim without it.

Therefore, for me, and I suspect a lot of users like me, the 12-inch MacBook is the perfect second device. Sure, the price is a little steep, but it is just so well-engineered, with a swathe of cutting-edge and all-new technology from Apple, that it is justified in my view (and in my work).

The iPad Pro, as much as I really like it, is not yet capable of replacing the 12-inch Retina MacBook for me -- but it could be with just a few tweaks. I just need it to have a user-viewable and accessible file system, and FTP capabilities. Otherwise, it is more than capable of keeping me productive while I am on the road in its current incarnation.

In fact, the new Apple A9X SoC in the iPad Pro is far more powerful than the first-gen Intel Core M that powers my 12-inch Retina MacBook. It is far more capable than my 12-inch MacBook when it comes to gaming on the road, and it is far more capable than my 12-inch MacBook for creative endeavors, like graphic design (obviously and thanks to the new Apple Pencil), but also for editing movies on the road, and other graphics rendering needs. It's bigger screen, yet equally-portable form factor, make it a joy to use.

So, clearly, for a set of users, the iPad Pro is exactly the kind of iPad that they have been hoping Apple would make. No, it doesn't run Adobe Photoshop, or "full desktop apps," as I hear the detractors cry -- to which I say, "just wait and see what app developers come up with for it." This raises another common criticism about the iPad Pro -- that there are not enough apps optimized for it -- yet.

Have people really got memories that short? Firstly, there are far more tablet-optimized apps for Apple's iPad than any other tablet on the market -- by a long way. Secondly, it really is a case of "build it, and they will come." Apple's mass market appeal, and ecosystem and developer tools are so good, so comprehensive, and so extensive, that it is clearly only going to be a (short) matter of time before we see this criticism put to bed.

Getting back to the 12-inch MacBook versus iPad Pro comparison, even though the 12-inch MacBook is underpowered compared to the iPad Pro, it is clearly capable of running full OS X, and full desktop applications. It does this very well in fact, thanks to the balance of its fast overall system architecture.

Is it then not patently obvious that the iPad Pro can support apps with full desktop capabilities? Apparently not it seems, if you are to read some of what has been written about it because a) it "just" an iPad, and b) because it runs iOS 9 and not OS X. Again, are people's memories really that short? When iOS was first released, it didn't even support cut and paste, yet a) the iPhone was a massive hit and b) it got there eventually.

In fact, although it is clear that Apple does not intend to merge iOS and OS X anytime soon (or ever, for that matter), it is very clear (or should be) that Apple has been extending the capabilities of iOS for iteration after iteration. Increasingly, iOS devices, not just the iPad Pro, are getting more and more capable and closer and closer to being on par (if not already exceeding the capabilities of OS X in some ways) with OS X.

There is absolutely no need for Apple to bring OS X to devices like the iPad Pro -- iOS is already built on the full OS X kernel, and as it's custom A-series ARM-based chips have gotten more power, Apple has duly extended iOS to take advantage of this. Split View, Slide Over, and Picture-in-Picture are OS X-like capabilities that it has now baked into iOS. Is it such a stretch of the imagination to think that Apple will extend these capabilities further in iOS 10/X?

What becomes apparent is that Apple's ARM-based chips have actually now outstripped the current capabilities of iOS. The A9X chip powering the iPad Pro could support true notebook replacement capabilities if the development of iOS was in full step with the capabilities of its hardware. This is far from being an unusual situation in the computing industry -- it is often the case that hardware technology outstrips software development, but software developers love the headroom. In one sense though, I feel Apple may have missed an opportunity to truly showcase the true power of the iPad Pro.

Even if we can look forward to iOS 10/X with anticipation of what's next for the ever-increasing capabilities of Apple's iOS devices, I would love to have seen Apple extend some of its own iOS 9 apps like GarageBand and iMovie further, to really showcase the full power of the iPad Pro -- touch-first versions of these apps that rival their desktop equivalents can be made possible by the iPad Pro. Yes, Apple has tweaked iMovie to support three simultaneous 4K Ultra HD (which is an incredible feat in and of itself), but the interface and functionalities can clearly be taken further, even if iOS 9 will get extended further in its next iteration.

However Apple does end up doing to further extend the capabilities of its apps and operating system, an overarching design principle will be to retain the iPad's legendary ease of use. It would be wrong, however, to correlate ease of use with any lack of productive or creative potential.

Given that the less powerful 12-inch MacBook can support full desktop apps like Adobe Photoshop (though rendering multiple layers and effects can take longer), I am eagerly awaiting to see the next generation of apps that will be made by developers to fully leverage the power of the A9X chip. It might be that some of these, or some of their features, might only work on the iPad Pro, but that would only serve to further differentiate the iPad Pro as a truly "Pro" class mobile device.

In fact, there could be an argument for Apple giving the iPad Pro a specially tweaked version of the next version of iOS, an iOS "Pro," if you will, that vaults it into the true notebook killer that is on the very cusp of being. One thing is for sure, if given the choice between a 13-inch notebook with an expansive display and an iPad Pro fully leveraged, its compact form factor is pretty hard to beat. The iPad Pro is certainly the future of mobile computing and it's here right now, but some people critics either have very short memories, or are very shortsighted.

-- Sanjiv Sathiah
( Last edited by NewsPoster; Dec 1, 2015 at 02:19 AM. )
     
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Nov 25, 2015, 10:00 AM
 
Paragraphs, man.
     
Mike Wuerthele
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Nov 25, 2015, 10:08 AM
 
Oddity of our CMS. When an article is written ahead of time and scheduled for publication, it sometimes loses the paragraph breaks when it transitions to the forums. Still looks fine on the homepage, though.
     
azrich
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Nov 25, 2015, 11:47 AM
 
The Pro is a step in the right direction. So far it has enabled me to do a fair amount of what I used to do on my iMac when preparing for my work day.

So far the Pro has proven to be a large iPad, and a little more than just a large iPad. If at some point you can connect one to a 27" display with its keyboard it'll be there even closer to a PC replacement. Personally I'd like a track pad when using a keyboard and monitor and iOS touch controls when using it at a tablet. I don't see any harm in that Having a trackpad-like control over the cursor when using the on screen keyboard is very handy and a step in that direction.

I get the feeling that there are more features to come for the current Pro, some simple things like having two Numbers spread sheets open at the same time.

My primary reason for getting one was simple- over 40 (year old) eyes.
     
DiabloConQueso
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Nov 25, 2015, 12:02 PM
 
azrich, all well and good, but how would a TrackPad work with a device/OS that has no notion of a cursor?
     
mdirvin
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Nov 25, 2015, 12:11 PM
 
I have a 13" Macbook that needs replacing. At first I looked at then dismissed the iPad Pro as a replacement. After going to the Apple store and working with it I decided that I could make it work as is. Being an Apple user since the mid 90's I know that this is just the starting point. I had to spend some time thinking about how I would change my workflow to accommodate the differences. I'm sure that is one of the issues, to replace a laptop with a tablet changes are required. As soon as you mention change people go running from the the room screaming the sky is falling. It will not replace my desktop for photo/video editing by any means, but for out in the field with its small form factor, light weight, powerful processor, and beautiful screen it will work out just fine. I'm leaving town for a week to do a photo shoot, the first order of business when I get back is to purchase a 128 GB iPad Pro, and put the smart keyboard on order.

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azrich
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Nov 25, 2015, 12:52 PM
 
Diablo- What I meant was when using it with a monitor connected, traditional desktop style. I was assuming the attached monitor wasn't just a mirror of what's on the iPad, and at that point I think a pointer is needed. So if it gets attached to an external monitor & keyboard it becomes a desktop, and at that point it's easier to use the pointer.

Basically- behave like a tablet when used as one, behave like a desktop when attached to an external monitor / keyboard. I wouldn't have a problem with that. This is all fantasy at this point of course. With NAS storage as fast as it is now-er-days I think an iPad could behave like a desktop in this fashion. I can't say this is the best way to do things, it's just an idea I thought would work.

Most of my work involves Numbers, email, and such. I'm not using an external keyboard since I'm not writing much.
     
farhadd
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Nov 25, 2015, 01:12 PM
 
azrich, Microsoft is already doing this with their Continuum capability on the Lumia 950. It's in its infancy (you can't run two apps side by side on the full size monitor) but pretty impressive nonetheless.
     
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Nov 25, 2015, 04:54 PM
 
Tim Cook's remarks aside—he's not a typical laptop user—the iPad Pro isn't intended to replace laptops. It's intended for creative designers and graphic professionals who've been frustrated by existing iPad limitations. Adobe illustrates its real purpose. The company seems to have been in on Apple's plans and has been creating iOS apps that take advantage of the larger screen size and touch features of an iPad Pro. Apple is hoping to expand its existing tablet market not damage its laptop one.
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Makosuke
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Nov 25, 2015, 05:40 PM
 
I think a very large amount of computer-geek criticism (Mac and otherwise) comes down to people equating "it's not the right product for what I do" to "It's not the right product for anybody" (or, simply, "it's garbage").

It's certainly possible to make a device that isn't for anybody, or at least a ridiculously small number of people. That recent Vesyl internet-connected water cup comes to mind.

But far more often you'll see products that are perfectly fine, and have a market that will like them, but the tech press (and commentariat) reaction is "it's garbage, because it's not what I personally want". Up to and including anger at even the idea that someone else might want something you don't.

The iPad Pro is just another entry in that list. It might sell well, it might not. The number of people who really will get good use out of it might be too small to sustain a market, or it might be huge. But in any case there are definitely people for whom it's a good device, and most of the people complaining about it are, as usual, complaining because it isn't designed for their personal workflow.
     
Mike Wuerthele
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Nov 25, 2015, 05:49 PM
 
This is the MacBook all over again, really.

https://www.macnn.com/articles/15/03...s.not.for.you/
     
Sanjiv Sathiah
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Nov 25, 2015, 08:24 PM
 
@DiabloConQueso - Don't forget, Apple has effectively built trackpad functionality into iOS 9, except at the moment it works by turning the soft keyboard into a soft trackpad - it is activated on the iPhone 6s with a force touch, and a two finger/thumb press on supported iPads - I love it. Actually adding hardware trackpad/mouse support is just a matter of Apple flicking the switch if it chooses.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Nov 26, 2015, 01:54 AM
 
re: "Is it then not patently obvious that the iPad Pro can support apps with full desktop capabilities?"

No, because it's not a desktop OS, even if it were much more powerful.

If they add mouse support. And, a file-system. And, if it's as stable as a laptop, say, on your lap (or similar setting... no pun intended), then I'll start agreeing it's getting close. Until then the reality is that it's an iPad and runs iOS 9.

And THAT is why it isn't a PC replacement, or a Macbook replacement. (Not because it isn't powerful enough or doesn't have the right apps, etc.)

re: "In fact, although it is clear that Apple does not intend to merge iOS and OS X anytime soon (or ever, for that matter)..."

Actually, I don't think that is very clear at all. As a friend said recently, Cook can talk all he wants, but until his actions align, it's pretty obvious the direction Apple is headed.

re: " It would be wrong, however, to correlate ease of use with any lack of productive or creative potential."

Agreed. But there is a kind of task which best fits either a mobile or desktop OS type UI. And when you try to do the one kind on the other OS, you lose productivity. If OS X were on a tablet, you'd have a sub-optimal mobile experience. When you try and use a mobile OS for a desktop task, you also get a sub-optimal experience.

So, it's more a matter of ergonomics and input type. If you're holding it, using your finger or stylus, then the iPad will win. If you're using keyboard and mouse, a laptop wins. It isn't so much about specs.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Nov 26, 2015, 01:56 AM
 
@ azrich -

That *might* be a possible way of convergence... if the OS adapted like modes depending on use-case (and was really two separately optimized modes). So, it basically has iOS and OSX on it, and when you're using it in mobile mode, it acts like a current iPad. When you're using it with keyboard and mouse, it's OS X... but on the same physical device.

One problem then, though is still physical issues... like a laptop is easy to prop up about any way and the screen doesn't fall off or over. That's harder to do with a tablet. Yet, when in mobile mode, you want to easily be able to ditch or stash those extra hardware bits (and it's a pain to lug them along... somewhat defeating the purpose).

I suppose they could come up with a clever cover that was a solid stand, keyboard, and mouse/track-pad... but that seems a tall order for something that's also very compact and light. IF they ever pull all of that off, maybe I'll decide convergence is here.

But, currently, I don't think laptops have much to fear from the iPad Pro. It might even be better for many things, but it's not a broad replacement.


@ Inkling -

It's too bad Apple kind of nuked their relationship with creatives, huh? Will they trust Apple to return for this? I wouldn't until they get OS X and their pro apps back in order.

That said, I used to work for an industrial designer... and I'm sure he's drooling over it. He always hated keyboards and mice anyway, and loved tech, but preferred a pencil and paper. And, needed to do light CAD and such too. This would be a dream.


@ Makosuke - I think it's more Cook's comments (even if misunderstood) and many of Apple's more recent moves that have people reacting that way. I think the iPad Pro is brilliant. It's just not a laptop replacement, and there are still content creators out there who need OS X (or need to switch platforms). And, we're worried Apple is abandoing that group because the mass market can get by with iOS products... you know, the big slice of the profit pie (big slice important... little slice who cares).


@ Mike -

Can't seem to follow that link, but IMO, a different kind of argument. Neither the iPad Pro or the Macbook are 'for everyone' type products. Both will probably be quite successful in their own right. As I said to Makosuke, the problem was the idea that the iPad Pro is the type of device that would (finally?) make one give up the laptop/desktop.

It's certainly the ultimate in mobile, and might be even more ideal than a laptop for an artist, for example. But, for someone who is used to a laptop, it would be about as challenging a transition as previous iPads were. And, while it's better now that iOS has advanced, I spent a couple years with just an iPad for mobile... it just isn't the same. Advantages and disadvantages, but not the same. The iPad Pro, as far as I can see, doesn't really change that.
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Steve Wilkinson
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Nov 26, 2015, 02:04 AM
 
Or, maybe this is a better question to sum up my thoughts...

What is it about the iPad Pro that has some of you thinking it's any better of a laptop/desktop replacement than an iPad Air 2?

What's the big factor(s) that has Cook thinking we're at this point of convergence?
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Nov 26, 2015, 03:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Sanjiv Sathiah View Post
@DiabloConQueso - Don't forget, Apple has effectively built trackpad functionality into iOS 9, except at the moment it works by turning the soft keyboard into a soft trackpad - it is activated on the iPhone 6s with a force touch, and a two finger/thumb press on supported iPads - I love it. Actually adding hardware trackpad/mouse support is just a matter of Apple flicking the switch if it chooses.
I really wish people had a little more idea of what the hell they're talking about before claiming this sort of nonsense in a context where some might mistake it for journalistic authority.

The "trackpad" is used exclusively to position a cursor (or selection) within a text. This is because text is the only instance where iOS has anything resembling a cursor.

There is no cursor in the iOS interface, and introducing a single-point cursor goes in the exact opposite direction that was the whole point of iOS to begin with. It is not "just a matter of Apple flicking the switch"; it would be a matter of designing a completely different interface.
     
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Nov 26, 2015, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson View Post
rre: "In fact, although it is clear that Apple does not intend to merge iOS and OS X anytime soon (or ever, for that matter)..."

Actually, I don't think that is very clear at all. As a friend said recently, Cook can talk all he wants, but until his actions align, it's pretty obvious the direction Apple is headed.
It is absolutely clear.

They are cementing the divide with every step they take.

Do not mistake looking the same with WORKING the same.
     
Sanjiv Sathiah
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Nov 26, 2015, 08:39 AM
 
@Spheric Harlot

Thankfully we have you, once again hiding behind the veil of your internet anonymity, to provide us with the "authoritative voice" that you feel need to provide us with.

I am not asking for Apple to bring cursor control to across the iOS UI. When people are talking about cursor control in iOS it has exactly to do with what I was talking about -- that is to say, having control over the cursor in a body of text. Before Apple added the virtual trackpad capability to which I as referring, it was an absolute pain in the posterior to use one's finger to get the cursor to a precise location.

For Apple to extend this capability to its Magic Trackpad 2, or a smaller, more portable version of it, would not be difficult at all. In fact, this would also offer a major additional benefit in the case of the iPad Pro -- it would add 3D Touch/Force Touch that is missing from the device because its display subsystem is designed around Apple Pencil support.
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Sanjiv Sathiah
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Nov 26, 2015, 08:51 AM
 
@Spheric Harlot

There is a reason Apple gives me its hardware to review -- you will note that MacNN has had access to the iPad Pro, as well as the Smart Keyboard and Apple Pencil peripherals (which are currently only available for pre-order). The interesting thing is that it wasn't me who approached Apple to review its products -- Apple approached me.

So it appears that Apple believes I am something of an authority on its products, even if you do not. I think you can guess whose opinion matters to me most.
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Sanjiv Sathiah
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Nov 26, 2015, 09:05 AM
 
@ Steve Wilkinson

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that because iOS is a "mobile OS" that apps rivalling desktop apps can't be built for it.

I am not calling on developers to port their desktop apps to iOS, although it is worth remembering that Microsoft already once did that with its Office applications for its original ARM-based Surface -- and that was a few years back on a now well and truly dated Tegra 3 platform.

The power of the A9X in the iPad Pro (coupled with 4GB of RAM -- the most ever in an iOS device) has given developers the opportunity to develop much deeper, richer, much more capable touch-first mobile applications. There is no reason why Adobe, for example, can't extend Photoshop for iPad with capabilities that it currently only offers in its desktop version. Apple didn't just add "Pro" to the name of this iPad for fun. It is clear it genuinely believes that this iPad is capable of running Pro-class applications -- the type we haven't yet seen before running on this class of device.
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Nov 26, 2015, 01:24 PM
 
@ Sanjiv Sathiah -

So, basically you're arguing that more power makes the difference. That's where I disagree.

No doubt, developers can make 'pro' apps for the iPad. IMO, there have been pro apps for the iPad long before the iPad Pro. It's not pro or non-pro that I'm talking about. It's the ergonomics of using a mobile device vs the ergonomics of using a desktop/laptop that is the issue.

My point is that one isn't a replacement for the other, not due to 'pro' capabilities, but because they are simply two distinct modes of interacting with a device... with benefits and downsides... which will increase or decrease productivity for a given task. But, they aren't easily interchangeable.

re: cursor control - For an iPad to be efficient while being used as a laptop-replacement, the touch interface has to go... that's the issue. So, some kind of cursor-control/pointer is needed that's much more effective than what we've currently got. So, you feel the virtual trackpad capability of iOS is good enough to fill that UX gap? (I'm really asking, as I've not used it yet. Even so, that would only solve the text aspect, you'd still have to touch the screen for other stuff, which is a productivity drag. But yea, text selection is, IMO, the biggie.)


@ Spheric Harlot -

I'm not confusing look at all, though I have to admit I've not been so happy with Apple's visual changes to iOS or OS X in recent years. Flat, IMO, is a bad design trend. Skeuomorphism might have gone a bit over the top and even cheesy, but it often helped the shortcomings of iOS in pre-understanding the outcome of actions, or heck, even knowing what is an interactive UI element.

If you've missed this article, it's a really good read (by two of the original Mac UI designers):
http://www.fastcodesign.com/3053406/how-apple-is-giving-design-a-bad-name

But, in regard to 'cementing the divide,' I'm more concerned they are preparing the cement pit for one of the two.
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azrich
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Nov 26, 2015, 01:59 PM
 
Maybe this will sum things up better-

Different situations do better with different ways of interacting with your device. For example-
In the car, in the kitchen when hands are full, etc. - voice commands.
Holding it in your hand- touch screen.
On your lap- touch screen.
On a desk with an external monitor - pointer and keyboard.

These are my preferred ways to interact with devices at those times. There's no reason that any given iOS device can't morph to accommodate these ways without sacraficing one over the other.
     
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Nov 26, 2015, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Sanjiv Sathiah View Post
@Spheric Harlot

There is a reason Apple gives me its hardware to review -- you will note that MacNN has had access to the iPad Pro, as well as the Smart Keyboard and Apple Pencil peripherals (which are currently only available for pre-order). The interesting thing is that it wasn't me who approached Apple to review its products -- Apple approached me.

So it appears that Apple believes I am something of an authority on its products, even if you do not. I think you can guess whose opinion matters to me most.
They believe having you review their stuff may be useful to them. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Sanjiv Sathiah View Post
@Spheric Harlot

Thankfully we have you, once again hiding behind the veil of your internet anonymity, to provide us with the "authoritative voice" that you feel need to provide us with.

I am not asking for Apple to bring cursor control to across the iOS UI. When people are talking about cursor control in iOS it has exactly to do with what I was talking about -- that is to say, having control over the cursor in a body of text. Before Apple added the virtual trackpad capability to which I as referring, it was an absolute pain in the posterior to use one's finger to get the cursor to a precise location.

For Apple to extend this capability to its Magic Trackpad 2, or a smaller, more portable version of it, would not be difficult at all. In fact, this would also offer a major additional benefit in the case of the iPad Pro -- it would add 3D Touch/Force Touch that is missing from the device because its display subsystem is designed around Apple Pencil support.
I'm not that anonymous. In fact, I'm not difficult to find, if you've been following the forums for a while.

But I do realise that I misunderstood what you were requesting. Given the keyboard accessory, your suggestion makes sense. But then, I think that the keyboard cover is a stopgap product intended to sell people on the iPad who think they can't do without one — much like the keyboard Dock for the original iPad.

I apologise for the tone.
     
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Nov 27, 2015, 02:42 AM
 
@ azrich -

It depends, I suppose, on what you mean by morph. Basically, when you're sitting in front of a computing device in a desktop/laptop type orientation, reaching for the screen is not ergonomic or productivity enhancing. You basically want to stay on the keyboard with some kind of selecting/pointing type device (like a mouse).

But, when you're holding it in your hands, obviously a mouse and keyboard aren't good input at all... thus the touch UI. (and of course, drawing or such are obviously better on a touch-screen)

The question is how much those can be combined. I'd say they really can't very well, so you'd have to have 'modes' or 'morph' depending on the use-case. For example, I suppose the cover could have both keyboard and track-pad integrated... and when attached, the device switches to a more OS X-like UI. When you detach it, it switches to an iOS-like UI.
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Nov 27, 2015, 03:28 AM
 
What's the point of such a product? It's confusing, expensive (having to incorporate both modes of interaction with high-quality components plus docking stuff), and inevitably compromised hardware design (battery life, weight, format, etc.).

It will be a worse laptop and a worse tablet, at the advantage of being both inferior products at the same time.

Hooray.
     
nat
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Washington, DC
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Nov 27, 2015, 05:48 AM
 
Until Apple gives the iPad a physical mouse/trackpad capabilities it will never be a full replacement.
As long as I have to reach up there and do that cumbersome copy/edit/paste/whatever I will never use it as a productive machine. And the new software trackpad is not in any way better when you're typing on a physical keyboard. It's actually worse. Now you have to reach up there and activate the software keyboard to get to those features.

There is no good reason not to give us that option. None. If touch is enough then why the physical keyboard? If touch is enough then why the pencil?
To continue to deny us that productivity option is a stubborness I cannot understand.

The maker of the best trackpad on the planet and we can't have that in iOS.
     
Steve Wilkinson
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Dec 7, 2015, 01:15 AM
 
@ Spheric Harlot - I don't necessarily see the point.. just pointing out what it would take to make it actually usable.
------
Steve Wilkinson
Web designer | Christian apologist
cgWerks | TilledSoil.org
     
   
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