Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Buying $1000 worth of software so you can dish out free videos.....hmmmm.....can anyone else see a slight flaw in this argument?

The bigger flaw is that he doesn't need to make videos - he wants to. Tough. I want to drive an Audi, as long as Audi has a surplus of stock, it's ok if I have one for free right? I mean, they already made it, and have lots to sell to paying customers, so I'm not harming them by taking a spare Audi, right?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
The bigger flaw is that he doesn't need to make videos - he wants to. Tough. I want to drive an Audi, as long as Audi has a surplus of stock, it's ok if I have one for free right? I mean, they already made it, and have lots to sell to paying customers, so I'm not harming them by taking a spare Audi, right?

Hey if you want to deny yourself artistic enrichment.. That's your business. I've seen some pretty spectacular amatuer music videos made by "pirates" from pirated software. It takes a lot of time and patience to create them and polish them up nice. Plus they are distributed for the enjoyment of all for free. If you don't want to pirate fine, that's your choice, but don't sit up on your moral high ground and shake your finger at others because they have found an
avenue around un-godly prices that you choose not to explore.

[sanity assassin]

Originally posted by UR-20:
Hey if you want to deny yourself artistic enrichment.. That's your business. I've seen some pretty spectacular music amatuer music videos made by "pirates" from pirated software. It takes a lot of time and patience to create them and polish them up nice. Plus they are distributed for the enjoyment of all for free. If you don't want to pirate fine, that's your choice, but don't sit up on your moral high ground and shake your finger at others because they have found an
avenue around un-godly prices that you choose not to explore.

I remember the early days of 3D animation, an how so many of us couldn't even afford a look in, even when packages such as Lightwave came out, they were still expensive. Lots of us just pirated them, gained the experience, bought them, and then got jobs in film companies. I still think that a student, or someone who wants to learn somethign like Combustion, Shake, Maya, or whatever should just go ahead and use it. Yes you can learn these skills on lesser programs, but the thing is, many companies nowadays look for experience in certian applications.

P.s. Many of the talented animators, and artists at companies like ILM and Pixar used pirated software when they were learning

[itistoday]

I think you're all blowing this thing wayyy out of proportion and have made the word "pirate" have an equivalent connotative meaning as "terrorist".

Here's some great satire for you.

[macintologist]

I was using a pirated version of a major software title. Then all of a sudden after a few months it detected the pirated serial number and stopped working. I didn't go out and buy the program. I just stopped using it and am trying out free alternatives. How did the vendor of that software title lose money? I was never going to purchase it in the first place. I didn't steal a physical copy from a store.

I think there are many cases like this so you can't always say that all cases of piracy affect the company.

I'd say the only real time when a company loses money is when someone who builds a PC uses a pirated version of Windows. Since they have no choice but to buy the OS if it were to stop working on a pirated serial number, it would only make sense that avoiding a legal copy hurts Microsoft's sales.

[macintologist]

I think that there are cases where piracy can help a company. Lets say there is a naive high school student who doesnt care about pirating things, and he pirates Final Cut Pro. He learns how to use it and makes some videos with it. When he gets a job in the movie industry, and his company needs him to purchase software, he's/she's gonna buy Final Cut instead of Premiere or Avid.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by sanity assassin:
I remember the early days of 3D animation, an how so many of us couldn't even afford a look in, even when packages such as Lightwave came out, they were still expensive. Lots of us just pirated them, gained the experience, bought them, and then got jobs in film companies. I still think that a student, or someone who wants to learn somethign like Combustion, Shake, Maya, or whatever should just go ahead and use it. Yes you can learn these skills on lesser programs, but the thing is, many companies nowadays look for experience in certian applications.

P.s. Many of the talented animators, and artists at companies like ILM and Pixar used pirated software when they were learning

I totally agree with you. I took a 3D animation class last semester, where lightwave was the program used. Some of the assignments were too large and I wasn't able to get enough class time, and the college closes. So I went out and got myself my own OSX version. ($700! no thankyou) I was able to work on all my projects at home on my own computer with no time limit. Got myself a sweet "A" in the end too.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by macintologist:
I think that there are cases where piracy can help a company. Lets say there is a naive high school student who doesnt care about pirating things, and he pirates Final Cut Pro. He learns how to use it and makes some videos with it. When he gets a job in the movie industry, and his company needs him to purchase software, he's/she's gonna buy Final Cut instead of Premiere or Avid.

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. In fact, these people may actually serve as advertizements to support the software and introduce others to it. They will eventually buy it, but when one is young and has no money and has no job, it isn't really possible to purchase it. Why deprive them of self-enrichment, especially when most pay back the loan? Keep in mind that if this person never pirated the software, he'd probably never buy it when he would have the money; it's like buying a car without ever having driven one. As I said before, there are very very few software pirates over the age of 30 (I have never come across any at least).

[Beewee]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Buying $1000 worth of software so you can dish out free videos.....hmmmm.....can anyone else see a slight flaw in this argument?

You didn't even know what my argument was so there is no way you could have found a flaw in it.

Originally posted by hayesk:
The bigger flaw is that he doesn't need to make videos - he wants to. Tough. I want to drive an Audi, as long as Audi has a surplus of stock, it's ok if I have one for free right? I mean, they already made it, and have lots to sell to paying customers, so I'm not harming them by taking a spare Audi, right?

The bigger flaw in your argument is that I NEVER SAID I NEEDED TO MAKE VIDEOS! My argument was based on the necessity or need, having nothing to do with buying the product. In fact if you actually read my post you would see that I say "I want to make music videos."
You don't need to drive an Audi and since it had nothing to do with the true argument your analogy is completely worthless.

It's like this: You have an Mp3 file on a CD, you need a computer, or special kind of CD player to play the disc. Without the proper hardware you can't listen to the music therefore the CD is worthless.

Now: I have an idea for a music video, but I need a specific program to make my idea into a reality. Without that software my idea is just that: "an idea" worthless -at least to others since they can't see what I am thinking in my head.

Finally: Say that neither of us want to pay for the things we NEED to accomplish our desires -I know it may be an imagination stretch for you since you pay for EVERYTHING but do your best. Does that take away the fact that we still NEED those things. In other words do you still need hardware to play your CD and do I still need that program to make my music videos.

And if you answer "no" then I suggest you find a person with no money to afford eggs and ask them to make you an omelet.

On a side note: I am currently getting an "A" in my college ethics course.

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by Beewee:
[B](b) I have an idea for a music video, but I need a specific program to make my idea into a reality. Without that software my idea is just that: "an idea" worthless -at least to others since they can't see what I am thinking in my head.

Well save up and buy the software then. That's life. If you can't afford it then you do without it. Why are your ideas so precious/worthwhile that you can get the software for free then pay for it later on in life?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Well save up and buy the software then. That's life. If you can't afford it then you do without it. Why are your ideas so precious/worthwhile that you can get the software for free then pay for it later on in life?

Fortunately, that's your life. Or way of life.
It doesn't mean I have to bow down to your example and throw out all
my ill-gotten mp3's -that is, if I had any -

Final Cut Pro 3 is great for making videos, so you expect him as well as everyone else to plunk down a grand on the program, and then do it all over again when FCP 4 comes out with a entire sound library?

It's completely illogical! I need this program to make videos, but goss darnit I just don't have the money. This user online is willing to trade a hacked version for a few music albums.. So I'm suppose to cling to my morals, and ethics; resist the temptation, and essentially become my conscience's bitch.

And Beewee, just because you got an "A" in ethics only means you fully understand the "wrong" you are doing.. Good for you

[itistoday]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Well save up and buy the software then. That's life. If you can't afford it then you do without it. Why are your ideas so precious/worthwhile that you can get the software for free then pay for it later on in life?

People who think like you won't get far in life. Do something to get ahead, take advantage of things. Just because someone says something's bad doesn't mean you should automatically listen to them like a mindless drone. The English merchants who didn't listen to the Navigation Acts got rich didn't they?

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by itistoday:
People who think like you won't get far in life. You're type of personality is designed to live in servatude.

Thanks for that Confucius.

What's so bad about working hard so you can buy things you want instead of getting them handed to you on a plate?

[I Me Mine]

Ahh, you changed your message. It really WAS lousy wasn't it.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Thanks for that Confucius.

What's so bad about working hard so you can buy things you want instead of getting them handed to you on a plate?

What if you can't work? What if you only get payed 10 bucks an hour and have to pay for college tuition? That's the point I've been arguing all along: that most software pirates are either in High School or College, and don't have the $$$ to buy it.

They don't get it handed to them on a silver plate. Because the "it" isn't the software, but the product made using the software. If they get somewhere in life from their product, then they'll have enough $$$ to buy the software in the future.

Now, pirating when you're 30 years old, have a family, and a nice job makes no sense. But I'm not arguing that.

[itistoday]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Ahh, you changed your message. It really WAS lousy wasn't it.

I didn't explain the idea behind it and felt I should.

Originally posted by UR-20:
Hey if you want to deny yourself artistic enrichment.. That's your business. I've seen some pretty spectacular amatuer music videos made by "pirates" from pirated software.

So what? There are lots of people with ideas that can't afford a computer. Some ideas never get put on paper, in video, or whatever. That's life. Get over yourself.

It takes a lot of time and patience to create them and polish them up nice. Plus they are distributed for the enjoyment of all for free.

Who cares if they are free. It doesn't matter. Sometimes you can't afford stuff. That doesn't mean to get to mooch off the hard work of others without permission.

If you don't want to pirate fine, that's your choice, but don't sit up on your moral high ground and shake your finger at others because they have found an
avenue around un-godly prices that you choose not to explore.

I will sit on my moral "high ground" because you still haven't given us a good reason why software developers should work their ass off just because you think you have a good idea for a video. You can claim you're too poor all you want, but that's BS. You can afford a computer, and you have time to post on these boards. Go get another job and earn the money for software instead spending your time posting here. Then save up and pay for the software that people worked so hard on.

Good ideas, whether you will give them away for free or not, are irrelevant. You do not have the right to mooch off of the hard work of others without their permission.

[I Me Mine]

Surely though, something like Final Cut Pro is for professional users, not people at College?

Why must you use the top of the range software when circumstances do not allow it to be bought?

And as for "they'll earn money later in life and buy it then" - what if they don't? Someone will have gained a career without (in this case) paying anything for it. How is that fair?

[UR-20]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Thanks for that Confucius.

What's so bad about working hard so you can buy things you want instead of getting them handed to you on a plate?

Do you honestly have any idea how long it takes a college kid to make
$1000?

I don't know any person who gets pirated software given to them.
It's usually the barter system with users. Quid pro quo..
You allow me to download from you and you can download from me.
And it is hard work finding a hacked program like maya, or avid.

I ask you what's so wrong about being morally flexible?

Originally posted by macintologist:
I was using a pirated version of a major software title. Then all of a sudden after a few months it detected the pirated serial number and stopped working. I didn't go out and buy the program. I just stopped using it and am trying out free alternatives. How did the vendor of that software title lose money? I was never going to purchase it in the first place. I didn't steal a physical copy from a store.

So basically, you are saying as long as there is a free alternative you can pirate software. Wow, what if everyone thought that way? As long as GIMP exists, anyone should feel ok to pirate Photoshop. What if there was no free alternative or if you didn't like the free alternative - you cannot say for certain you wouldn't save up money to buy the original or at least someone else's product. Somebody would have lost out.

Regardless, even if the company isn't missing out the money, that doesn't mean it's ok. You are taking advantage of the hard work of others without their permission. If you went away for the weekend, and I broke into your apartment without telling you and stayed there while you were gone, that'd be ok with you, right? I mean, you aren't out any money, right - so it's ok.

I think there are many cases like this so you can't always say that all cases of piracy affect the company.

It does. Unless you are actually prevented from pirating the software, nobody, not even you can say you wouldn't have paid for it. You said yourself, you are trying out free alternatives. Are they just as good? Have you determined you like the free alternatives? Yes? Then why didn't you try them in the first place. Then the companies know that they have to improve their commercial software or lower prices to get your business. If you pirate, they won't know that. They'll just label you as a thief.

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by UR-20:
Do you honestly have any idea how long it takes a college kid to make
$1000?

Why then, are they using professional software then that costs more than they can afford? They could use cheaper software. Surely good "ideas" would overcome any technical limitations - or is it the professional software that's doing all the work...?

Originally posted by UR-20:
Do you honestly have any idea how long it takes a college kid to make
$1000?

Yes. A couple of months. $10/hour for 10 hours a week is just over two months worth of work. Think of all the planning you could do with your ideas while saving up for software. But so what, if your idea is good now, it'll be good when you get enough money.

Besides, most software has educational discounts anyway. And 3D software often has "learning" versions if you need to learn it first.

It's usually the barter system with users. Quid pro quo..
You allow me to download from you and you can download from me.
And it is hard work finding a hacked program like maya, or avid.

If you want to contact the producers of Maya and Avid and offer to trade your video for their products then be my guest. Only they have the permission to give you their software - not your buddy on the net with a warez site.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
So what? There are lots of people with ideas that can't afford a computer. Some ideas never get put on paper, in video, or whatever. That's life. Get over yourself.

Hehe.. Get over myself?
Who's the guy right now who likes to judge the actions of
a vast number of people, myself included.
What's funny about life, is I don't give up like you. Where there's a will there's a way.

You come on here reaming out all of us "pirates" thinking that your
so altrusitic because you don't do it. So in essence you believe that you're better than "us." And I need to get over Myself?

Who cares if they are free. It doesn't matter. Sometimes you can't afford stuff. That doesn't mean to get to mooch off the hard work of others without permission.

So you value the quality of something based on it's price tag?
Personally I value the hardwork and dedication that people put into their creations. Like Strong bad, the creator pumps out a cartoon once a week for us to laugh, and doesn't expect compensation for it.
But I don't believe in companies putting a sub-standard product (Microsoft, as an example) on the market and giving it a 500% mark up in price for the amount of time that was actually spent in it's conception.

I will sit on my moral "high ground" because you still haven't given us a good reason why software developers should work their ass off just because you think you have a good idea for a video. You can claim you're too poor all you want, but that's BS. You can afford a computer, and you have time to post on these boards. Go get another job and earn the money for software instead spending your time posting here. Then save up and pay for the software that people worked so hard on.

One, half of em don't. They just fix old problems that were apparent
in their product and still make people pay for it.
Your "go get a job" comment is just more proof of your superior attitude. You aren't the Messahia of the software industry, so stop acting like it. Who said I was using my computer? I could be at a library, or a college, or a friend's house.. So maybe I don't have the money, but of course you were too full of yourself to think of that possibility.

Good ideas, whether you will give them away for free or not, are irrelevant. You do not have the right to mooch off of the hard work of others without their permission.

Watch me! You arrogant, condescending prick.

[UR-20]

oops

[Beewee]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
Why then, are they using professional software then that costs more than they can afford?

Here are some problems with this argument.

A person would use might use the more expensive or as you called it "Professional" software because the software has more options, more compatability with other software. It could also be faster and more user friendly. Most people look at what the program can do and then look at the price tag.

They could use cheaper software. Surely good "ideas" would overcome any technical limitations - or is it the professional software that's doing all the work...?

What do you even mean by "the professional software doing all the work?" Surely you don't think that you can sit in front of your computer, open the software and say, "Make me an awesome music video."
Thats just silly, I suggest you think very carefully before you post your responses.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by hayesk:
So what? There are lots of people with ideas that can't afford a computer. Some ideas never get put on paper, in video, or whatever. That's life. Get over yourself.

Thank God you're not a motivational speaker. "Life is tough, give up!" You don't even know what your talking about.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Yes. A couple of months. $10/hour for 10 hours a week is just over two months worth of work. Think of all the planning you could do with your ideas while saving up for software. But so what, if your idea is good now, it'll be good when you get enough money.

Here's a story: Two guys are driving in snowy weather. It's slick, the snow is pooring down, and they slide off the road and get stuck.

Guy 1: Starts pushing down on the gas, his tires spin but he goes no where. He starts swearing and cussing, and presses the gas again trying to get a rythmn going to rock the car loose. Nothing. He get's out of the car, kicks the car, cusses some more, gets back in the car
and floors it. He keeps his foot to the floor and boom, the transmission blows. So he get's on his cell phone calls up a tow truck, get's driven to the service station, new transmission, $2500, and hours later, he's back on the road.

Guy 2: Get's out of his car, pulls out a small shovel, and bag of sand. Get's down by the car shovels for 5 mins, sands for another 5 mins. Get's back in his car and drives off.

You sound to me to be the 1st guy, am I right?

The more work you have to do, the more money you have to spend to get what you want, or where you want to go, the better off you are.
"Suffering builds character"

Myrkridia even said that he had to get a pirated program for his 3D animation course, should he and every other student going to school deny themselves a better education because of some quasi moral or ethical obligation?

If you want to contact the producers of Maya and Avid and offer to trade your video for their products then be my guest. Only they have the permission to give you their software - not your buddy on the net with a warez site.

=D My buddy on the net is much nicer.
Ethics are arbitrary. Just because you think something is right or wrong doesn't mean that it is so.

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by Beewee:

What do you even mean by "the professional software doing all the work?"

I asked if that was the case. I didn't state it as a fact.

Originally posted by Beewee:
Surely you don't think that you can sit in front of your computer, open the software and say, "Make me an awesome music video."

No, but it'd be a damn sight easier with pro software than cheap software.

Originally posted by Beewee:
Thats just silly, I suggest you think very carefully before you post your responses.

I will if you will.

[I Me Mine]

Originally posted by Beewee:
Thank God you're not a motivational speaker. "Life is tough, give up!" You don't even know what your talking about.

What should it be then? "Life is tough, so steal now and pay back later?"

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
What should it be then? "Life is tough, so steal now and pay back later?"

Personally, if I had to choose between my education, or feeling bad that I hadn't paid the $700 to the company that created Lightwave.. I think I can live with my decision.
Life is tough, and what I think some users are saying is "We are doing whatever we have to do, to make in this world, because it sure as hell isn't gonna let up, or get easier."

[Beewee]

Originally posted by I Me Mine:
No, but it'd be a damn sight easier with pro software than cheap software.

Not always, comparing lightwave to maya I found lightwave to be much easier to use. But maya is the industry standard because it can do more.

I asked if that was the case. I didn't state it as a fact.

I never said you did, I only asked what you meant by it.

I will if you will.

Hahaha this part is just funny as hell.

[itistoday]

"Professional Software". WTF? Because a guy's in college he doesn't have the right to use "professional software"? Why the **** should he be stuck using iMovie to make movies? That's impractical, and any "professional" editor can tell you that. He wants to keep up with the competition and perhaps become something big, but doesn't have the money to pay for this "professional software". Apple won't lose money on him, it'll gain money. Your argument is ridiculous.

"Life's tough, get over it". What a waste of breath. You can go ahead and let life be tough to you, but I'll be tough to life. This pacifism won't get you anywhere, can't you see that? If at a young age you start using what the pro's use, then you'll be up to par once you graduate, and will be able to put "Final Cut Pro/Avid/Lightwave etc" on your resume instead of "iMovie, Appleworks". Then perhaps someone will hire you and you'll have the money to pay for software.

Originally posted by UR-20:
Hehe.. Get over myself?
Who's the guy right now who likes to judge the actions of
a vast number of people, myself included.

Why can't I? I'm not arrogant enough to give a sob story about how poor I am as an excuse to rip off people who work hard.

What's funny about life, is I don't give up like you. Where there's a will there's a way.

You don't get it, do you? Pirating is giving up. You are too lazy to get a job to actually compensate developers who work a whole lot harder than you do. You give us a BS sob story that you can't earn money and that pirating software is the only way you can survive in the big bad world. Give me a friggin' break. You are taking the easy way out by pirating. You have no patience to take the time to earn the money to compensate people who work hard to make the product you want. You actually believe that because you have no money and don't want to earn it, that you should have software for free!

And you have the nerve to call me arrogant and condescending?!? Grow up!

You come on here reaming out all of us "pirates" thinking that your
so altrusitic because you don't do it. So in essence you believe that you're better than "us." And I need to get over Myself?

Yes, you do. I work hard to earn money to buy the things I want. Just because something is easy to take, doesn't mean I take it. Why? Because I don't deserve it, and I don't have permission.

So you value the quality of something based on it's price tag?

No. I didn't even imply it.

Personally I value the hardwork and dedication that people put into their creations.

And you seem to have no respect for the craftspeople that make the tools that artists use.

Like Strong bad, the creator pumps out a cartoon once a week for us to laugh, and doesn't expect compensation for it.

Hey, I like HomestarRunner too, and lots of other free stuff. I respect them for being able to give us top quality entertainment for free. But that doesn't mean everything must be free. If the developers at Macromedia weren't paid to make Flash, there'd be no HSR for you to enjoy, because those tools probably may not have been made.

But I don't believe in companies putting a sub-standard product (Microsoft, as an example) on the market and giving it a 500% mark up in price for the amount of time that was actually spent in it's conception.

Then don't buy it and don't use it. Show some integrity.

One, half of em don't. They just fix old problems that were apparent
in their product and still make people pay for it.

They don't make anyone pay for it. Send them a message that their product is substandard by not using it at all.

Your "go get a job" comment is just more proof of your superior attitude.

Believing people should be compensated for their hard work is not a superior attitude. Believing you should be able to take their hard work without compensating them is a superior attitude.

You aren't the Messahia of the software industry, so stop acting like it. Who said I was using my computer? I could be at a library, or a college, or a friend's house.. So maybe I don't have the money, but of course you were too full of yourself to think of that possibility.

Doesn't matter which computer you use. You are using someone else's hard work for your personal gain. Not necessarily monetarily, but personal gain, nonetheless. You are using their hard work without their permission and not compensating them. You believe yourself to be deserving of having what you want for free. That is a superior attitude. That is arrogant.

Watch me! You arrogant, condescending prick.

If believing people should compensate others for hard work, and working hard to earn the things you want to have is arrogant and condescending to you, then go ahead and believe me to be arrogant and condescending.

[Shaddim]

"Life's tough, get over it". What a waste of breath. You can go ahead and let life be tough to you, but I'll be tough to life. This pacifism won't get you anywhere, can't you see that? If at a young age you start using what the pro's use, then you'll be up to par once you graduate, and will be able to put "Final Cut Pro/Avid/Lightwave etc" on your resume instead of "iMovie, Appleworks". Then perhaps someone will hire you and you'll have the money to pay for software. [/B]

This is all too true. I've seen it happen quite a few times.

Personally, I go the "try for 30 days" route. I get some software that interests me, usually many different apps of the same type, and I try them out. If I like a particular app and find it of value, I buy it. Then I delete the others. I don't find anything wrong with that, it promotes the writing of quality software.

The lone exception is M$, and yes I have Office X. They and Bill can kiss my a$$, as they won't get a dime from me.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Why can't I? (*Judge people) I'm not arrogant enough to give a sob story about how poor I am as an excuse to rip off people who work hard.

Hey you don't see me judging you for your choice NOT to pirate.
Though it doesn't appear that you extend the same courtesy.

You don't get it, do you? Pirating is giving up.

I'm sorry I don't follow.. I want a program, I don't have the money for it, so I find alternative means to get said program.
Hayesk want's a program, he doesn't have the money, so he goes without, or gets a second job, saves up money and gets the program.. The whole goal of this example was getting the program which I did, and you did. So we both succeeded.. (But somehow I also gave up..)That's some pretty twisted logic.

You are too lazy to get a job to actually compensate developers who work a whole lot harder than you do. You give us a BS sob story that you can't earn money and that pirating software is the only way you can survive in the big bad world. Give me a friggin' break. You are taking the easy way out by pirating.

For your information, I have a job working at my college.. So don't make radical assumptions please. I also never gave you a BS sob story, all I gave you were possibilities for all the assumptions that you kept making toward a person (me) you don't even know. ie: you can afford a computer, get a job you lazy bum, etc. (I think someone owes me an apology)

You have no patience to take the time to earn the money to compensate people who work hard to make the product you want. You actually believe that because you have no money and don't want to earn it, that you should have software for free!

All you seem to value is the "hardwork" part of life, whether it's
necessary or not. If I were told to dig a 5x5 hole in the ground and I was given the choice of either a shovel or a spoon, you'd probably look down on my for taking the shovel.

And you have the nerve to call me arrogant and condescending?!? Grow up!

ar�ro�gant: adj -
1.) Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2.)Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

Examples:

Hayesk: "I will sit on my moral "high ground"

UR-20:Hehe.. Get over myself?Who's the guy right now who likes to judge the actions of
a vast number of people, myself included.

Hayesk: "Why can't I?"

Hayesk: "You are too lazy to get a job to actually compensate developers who work a whole lot harder than you do." "I work hard to earn money to buy the things I want."


con�de�scend�ing: intr. v -
1.)To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself.
2.)To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.

Examples:

Hayesk: "Think of all the planning you could do with your ideas while saving up for software."

Hayesk: "If you want to contact the producers of Maya and Avid and offer to trade your video for their products then be my guest."

Then don't buy it and don't use it. Show some integrity.

Some products don't have the "limited version" where you can try before you buy, so if I plunk down cash for an animation program and find out it sucks.. Now I know not to buy from this company, but I still get screwed out of my hard earned money.

Believing people should be compensated for their hard work is not a superior attitude. Believing you should be able to take their hard work without compensating them is a superior attitude.

I never said you were superior for believing that people should be compensated, I said you were superior for talking down to people like me, as well as thinking yourself a better person (compared to us) for not doing the same things we do to acquire programs.

Go ahead and believe me to be arrogant and condescending.

Alright then I will

Originally posted by UR-20:
Hey you don't see me judging you for your choice NOT to pirate.
Though it doesn't appear that you extend the same courtesy.

I'm not judging you at all. I am judging your action of piracy. You could be a very nice person, for all I know. I have friends who pirate music and software. I don't think any less of them, or you, because of it. I'm only saying I don't agree with piracy.

I'm sorry I don't follow.. I want a program, I don't have the money for it, so I find alternative means to get said program.
Hayesk want's a program, he doesn't have the money, so he goes without, or gets a second job, saves up money and gets the program.. The whole goal of this example was getting the program which I did, and you did. So we both succeeded.. (But somehow I also gave up..)That's some pretty twisted logic.

Because I didn't take anything without permission. You gave up and took the easy way at others' expense.

For your information, I have a job working at my college.. So don't make radical assumptions please. I also never gave you a BS sob story, all I gave you were possibilities for all the assumptions that you kept making toward a person (me) you don't even know. ie: you can afford a computer, get a job you lazy bum, etc. (I think someone owes me an apology)

I'm glad you have a job. Get another one. You are still taking without compensating without permission. You believe that you somehow succeeded by stealing the software instead. Your BS sob story is that you need to copy the software rather than pay for it. I don't see what I have to apologize for.

All you seem to value is the "hardwork" part of life, whether it's
necessary or not. If I were told to dig a 5x5 hole in the ground and I was given the choice of either a shovel or a spoon, you'd probably look down on my for taking the shovel.

Hey, if you took the shovel from Home Depot without telling them, and even if you returned it later, then I would look down on your actions. If you have permission from the shovel's owner to use the shovel, then I wouldn't look down at that at all. Why would I?

ar�ro�gant: adj -
1.) Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.

I haven't talked about me at all. So, I don't see where I made the comparison of my importance or worth to yours.

2.)Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

I don't feel superior to you at all. I feel my method of acquiring software is a better method than yours.

Examples:

Hayesk: "I will sit on my moral "high ground"

Notice it is in quotation marks. I was quoting you - I did not make that claim myself. You did

UR-20:Hehe.. Get over myself?Who's the guy right now who likes to judge the actions of
a vast number of people, myself included.

Yeah, so. Judging someone's actions is not arrogant. I can say taking candy from children is a terrible thing to do, it doesn't make me arrogant in the slightest.

Hayesk: "Why can't I?"

Hayesk: "You are too lazy to get a job to actually compensate developers who work a whole lot harder than you do." "I work hard to earn money to buy the things I want."

Right. I am comparing actions - mine to yours. What is the problem? With my method, the person who worked hard to make the software gets fair compensation, yours doesn't. That's what I am comparing. I'm not comparing your personality, my self-worth, or anything of the sort.

con�de�scend�ing: intr. v -
1.)To descend to the level of one considered inferior; lower oneself.
2.)To deal with people in a patronizingly superior manner.

Haven't shown any of that.

Examples:

Hayesk: "Think of all the planning you could do with your ideas while saving up for software."

It's a fair suggestion. I've done that myself.

Hayesk: "If you want to contact the producers of Maya and Avid and offer to trade your video for their products then be my guest."

Yeah, so?

Some products don't have the "limited version" where you can try before you buy, so if I plunk down cash for an animation program and find out it sucks.. Now I know not to buy from this company, but I still get screwed out of my hard earned money.

So it's ok for you to get screwed out of your hard earned money, but not ok for them? Read reviews and do some research. If you can't get any information and don't want to take the risk, then use another product. Let the developer know this. They may decide to make a time-trial version.

I never said you were superior for believing that people should be compensated, I said you were superior for talking down to people like me, as well as thinking yourself a better person (compared to us) for not doing the same things we do to acquire programs.

Having an argument is not talking down to people. My side of the argument is based on people working hard to develop products. Those people want and deserve compensation from the people the make use of their hard work.

Your side seems to be based on getting products for free is ok because you save money. You haven't even considered the developers of said product. They did the work, but yet you believe you should decide if they get paid for it. You haven't given a response to that. When I suggested you ask the developers for a trade for your work, you laughed it off. It's a ridiculous statement I made, isn't it? Of course it is, because the developers would never agree. They want to be paid for their work. Do you think they don't deserve to be paid? If you do think they do, why do you not have to pay them while everyone else does?

You mentioned you have a job. What if your boss decided not to pay you? That's ok, right? I mean, you already did the work, but you're not really out any money. He didn't *take* any money from you. Why is that not ok? The same applies to software developers. The only difference is they want their pay to come in pieces - one piece of payment for everyone who uses their work. Why is that wrong?

[Beewee]

I will say this. The only thing that makes stealing or "pirating" software wrong are peoples perceptions of the act itself. I challenge anyone to find the "wrong" in pirating software using complete and totally objective reason.

[scoxx]

Copyright infringement is not theft.

Originally posted by Beewee:
I will say this. The only thing that makes stealing or "pirating" software wrong are peoples perceptions of the act itself. I challenge anyone to find the "wrong" in pirating software using complete and totally objective reason.

You could say that about any act. But essentially, I agree, as that is the definition of wrong.

My argument with UR-20 is based on in my perception, the developer is the victim when software is pirated, hence I believe it is wrong. UR-20 either doesn't see the developer as a victim or doesn't care.

[Xeo]

Originally posted by Beewee:
I challenge anyone to find the "wrong" in [anything] using complete and totally objective reason.

Objective reasoning only returns true and false, not right and wrong. It is impossible for someone to prove something is wrong objectively.

[Sherwin]

I'm finding this argument to be most bizarre. Why? Because you hand your $1,000 over for the professional software and you still don't own it. You've got a licence to use it.

If you sub-licence that software to other people (for free), how exactly can they be guilty of theft? Nobody has stolen anything - the pirate "vendor" might be guilty of breach of contract but that's about it.

However, if the pirate "vendor" never signs anything to say s/he agrees with the licence agreement. ??

The softs industry needs to lose the licencing and become more like every other industry if it want to stop piracy. Perhaps if software was treated like other product, people wouldn't take to piracy quite so easily.

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I'm finding this argument to be most bizarre. Why? Because you hand your $1,000 over for the professional software and you still don't own it. You've got a licence to use it.

If you sub-licence that software to other people (for free), how exactly can they be guilty of theft?

Because legally, you don't have the right to sub-license that software. You only have the right to sell or give away your own license, in which case you do not have the right to use it after that. i.e. you can give a software package away, but you can't keep a copy for yourself.

You don't have to sign anything because it's copyright law, not a contract.

[benb]

hayesk:

[entrox]

Since this is an Apple forum, I assume you all have some kind of Apple equipment, which is not exactly known for its low price. So tell me - how did you manage to buy yourselves a nice machine, while being apparently utterly unable to acquire adequate software. Do I smell some hypocrisy here? Why did you shell out the money for the hardware, but insist on stealing software?

[talisker]

There's several posts here promoting the idea that copyright infringement is OK as it allows poor struggling students to realise their artistic potential, which they couldn't otherwise afford.

1) F*ck off, don't make me laugh. The vast majority of you lot who're studying 3D modelling, design etc aren't doing it because you want to make a huge contribution to humanity through your, like, artistic vision. You're doing it because you think it's quite cool, enjoy doing it, and hope you can earn some decent money with it.

2) If you're saying the copyright infringement is OK, then once you are an oh so successful designer you won't have any problem with people ripping off your work? Whenever there's the merest hint of Apple, or certain icon designers who visit here, being ripped off on the web, there's huge storm of indignation in here. Yet you're proposing that's OK.

3) You can afford to buy the software you need, but I bet you went and bought that cool phone, iPod, playstation, car etc first didn't you? Maybe things are radically different in the USA, but in my experience if a student is enroled in an academic course they can usually get access to loans to further that study. Or get a job.

4) At the end of the day it's not up to you to make a decision as to whether you feel pirating software is morally allowable or not. Why does the fact you've thought about it give you more right to do it than someone of lesser intelligence who just accepts the legal fact?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by entrox:
Since this is an Apple forum, I assume you all have some kind of Apple equipment, which is not exactly known for its low price. So tell me - how did you manage to buy yourselves a nice machine, while being apparently utterly unable to acquire adequate software. Do I smell some hypocrisy here? Why did you shell out the money for the hardware, but insist on stealing software?

I own the hardware, which has a warranty against faults. I can't own the software, which doesn't have any kind of warranty against faults.

Software is, as far as I know, the only product which requires you to "agree" to a disclaimer preventing action against the maker (including refunds) if the product turns out to be crap. Is it just me who has a problem with this?

(for the record, I only "gamma test" Billy's product - everything else is paid for. Just trying to pop some alternative opinions into the thread).

[Link]

Originally posted by talisker:
[B]2) If you're saying the copyright infringement is OK, then once you are an oh so successful designer you won't have any problem with people ripping off your work? Whenever there's the merest hint of Apple, or certain icon designers who visit here, being ripped off on the web, there's huge storm of indignation in here. Yet you're proposing that's OK.
[B]

If you're a sucessful designer your work will get ripped off somehow. This is proven, and it happens so much it's hard to stop. Design piracy is almost as comon as software piracy, in fact. Think about it? When was the last time you designed a site using the 'menubar' design? When did you have several tabs at the top?

People came up with those first and the more definitive they are the more they own the rights to them but I don't hear you complaining there?

Hehe, anyway, people stealing an ENTIRE design is rare, but I've seen + heard of it happening :insane cackle:

Software piracy does suck.. but thanks to staying legal I've been using open source programs anyway, and then nobody benefits. Why? I can't even afford hardware right now? ipod? I worked for that (albeit it was more luck then work).... hrm what other technology purchases did I make in the past 6 months?

Oh.

A pair of headphones.

[UR-20]

Originally posted by hayesk:
I'm not judging you at all. I am judging your action of piracy. You could be a very nice person, for all I know. I have friends who pirate music and software. I don't think any less of them, or you, because of it. I'm only saying I don't agree with piracy.

Judging someone's way of life is just the same as judging the person. You look over at a man passed out in the gutter from too much alcohol.. You don't say "His act of drunkeness is disgusting" you say "Jeez what a filthy drunk" and please don't try to tell me that you dont' do that. Because on some level we all do it at one point or another. No one can be that objective.

Because I didn't take anything without permission. You gave up and took the easy way at others' expense.

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

I'm glad you have a job. Get another one. You are still taking without compensating without permission. You believe that you somehow succeeded by stealing the software instead. Your BS sob story is that you need to copy the software rather than pay for it. I don't see what I have to apologize for.

No thanks.. one job plus school is enough for me. How do I not "succeed"? I get what I want/need which is the whole point of this. I don't need to copy I choose to. I didn't expect you would apologize.. I only said you should for making baseless accusations about me. But you don't seem to be the type who admits when he's in error.

Hey, if you took the shovel from Home Depot without telling them, and even if you returned it later, then I would look down on your actions. If you have permission from the shovel's owner to use the shovel, then I wouldn't look down at that at all. Why would I?

Because I'd be taking the easy way out once again. Because by your logic hardwork builds character.

I don't feel superior to you at all. I feel my method of acquiring software is a better method than yours.

Uh huh.. right.
So the whole "you're too lazy to get a job"
wasn't superior or arrogant in the least.

Notice it is in quotation marks. I was quoting you - I did not make that claim myself. You did

But you agreed with what I said, that you do feel slightly higher (morally speaking) to me..
Otherwise you wouldn't have used it in that context.

Yeah, so. Judging someone's actions is not arrogant. I can say taking candy from children is a terrible thing to do, it doesn't make me arrogant in the slightest.

And you wouldn't look down at the person
taking the candy in the least I suppose.
You would have to have an inhuman control over your emotions for that to happen.

Right. I am comparing actions - mine to yours. What is the problem? With my method, the person who worked hard to make the software gets fair compensation, yours doesn't. That's what I am comparing. I'm not comparing your personality, my self-worth, or anything of the sort.

Actions make up a person's character (or so society believes) So are you telling me that I am just as morally and ethically righteous as you?

So it's ok for you to get screwed out of your hard earned money, but not ok for them? Read reviews and do some research. If you can't get any information and don't want to take the risk, then use another product. Let the developer know this. They may decide to make a time-trial version.

Yeah because large companies are known for caring what the little guy thinks.

Having an argument is not talking down to people. My side of the argument is based on people working hard to develop products. Those people want and deserve compensation from the people the make use of their hard work.

The manner in which you conduct the argument is. Sarcastic comments, insults, and telling others how to run their lives..
And just because I know you'll scream How am I being any of those

Sarcastism: "If you want to contact the producers of Maya and Avid and offer to trade your video for their products then be my guest."

Insults: "You are too lazy to get a job"

Telling me how to run my life: "I'm glad you have a job. Get another one."

I really hope that puts things into percepective for you.

They did the work, but yet you believe you should decide if they get paid for it. You haven't given a response to that.

As customers, don't we all decide if we buy or not. There have been programs that I didn't pirate and chose not to buy either. So I made the decision once again, not to pay.

When I suggested you ask the developers for a trade for your work, you laughed it off.

I wasn't laughing.

because the developers would never agree. They want to be paid for their work. Do you think they don't deserve to be paid? If you do think they do, why do you not have to pay them while everyone else does?

There's such a thing as a salary. They get paid regardless of my efforts.

You mentioned you have a job. What if your boss decided not to pay you? That's ok, right? I mean, you already did the work, but you're not really out any money. He didn't *take* any money from you. Why is that not ok? The same applies to software developers. The only difference is they want their pay to come in pieces - one piece of payment for everyone who uses their work. Why is that wrong?

The work I do is volunteer at a humane society, the college advertises to students, and I signed up, but no I don't get paid.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by hayesk:
Having an argument is not talking down to people. My side of the argument is based on people working hard to develop products. Those people want and deserve compensation from the people the make use of their hard work.

Before you can claim to be taking part in a argument you first have to understand the concept of arguing (forming premises, conclusions, and figuring out what a person is arguing.) which you lack.

[Beewee]

Originally posted by Xeo:
Objective reasoning only returns true and false, not right and wrong. It is impossible for someone to prove something is wrong objectively.

I know.