[Atheist]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It's very minor, but there is a bit of a "flinch factor" associated with it. That's probably the reason why he doesn't use it, anywhere. I hear "Hillary Rodham Clinton" several times each day, but never "Barack Hussein Obama".

Hillary's use of her maiden name is irrelevant to this discussion. Is there something suspicious about John McCain not using his middle name (Sidney)? Do you use your middle name? I certainly don't use mine. The "flinch factor" you describe is an unfortunate side-effect of racism.. plain and simple. And this incessant obsession with Mr. Obama's middle name is more of the same. His middle name is of no significance.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Didn't Harry S Truman invent the "S" just to make him sound more... presidential? There might just be a long history of middle names determining the PotUS. So sad...

Oh yeah, Big Mac, surely you can understand that if you insist on bringing the middle name debate to all your threads, you're derailing your own threads before they're even on the rails...why don't you knock it off? You said yourself it's not a "big" issue to you, so why do you insist on pushing it to the detriment of your other issues?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by peeb 

No, there won't be a 'socialist' victory, [/url]

According to some Republicans, a McCain victory would be a socialist victory.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

This thread has descended to the requisite level of idiocy, I see.

Big Mac, as a political moderate I hardly support peeb's incessant left-wing attacks on anything remotely conservative, but I must say that your tactic of attacking Obama's political campaign because of his ethnic-sounding name is quite surprising.

Even more surprising is your subsequent admission that you never entered politics partly because you knew people would attack you because of your Jewish-sounding name. Thus, it would seem that you're deliberately perpetuating the very stereotypes that have existed against your own people (and, it would seem, yourself) for thousands of years, and are roundly condemned today. (Your seeming argument that there's a difference between "racism" and "ethnic stereotyping" is very weak, because the overall effect is the same in this situation.)

Your defence seems to be "well it exists." I don't see how that somehow validates your open promotion of it. Hell, I'll be perfectly honest with you right now: my (Jewish) girlfriend sometimes points out to me my "Jewish stereotyping" of her friends, even if I think it's innocently/unconsciously done on my part. I think everyone has such stereotypes. They're inevitable. But in my mind, there's a difference between inevitable, unconscious stereotyping and deliberate promotion of stereotypes for a certain cause. As someone else noted, were a Jewish candidate named "John Smith" in the race, I for one would be offended if someone on this board insisted on calling him by his unused, Jewish middle name "Levi," as if that somehow made a difference to his candidacy.

To my mind, your deliberate and pointed use of "Hussein" in referring to Mr. Obama is downright shameful. To my mind it might even be doubly shameful given the tragic effect such stereotyping and racism have specifically had against the Jewish (your) people(s) for thousands of years. Maybe you're taking the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, but I think it's sad.

Anyways, I'm not interested in the discussion at hand, and I'm not going to post further in this thread. That's just my opinion.

greg

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

So, I'd really like to talk about this poll. You guys have told me several times that it will be impossible for McCain to beat either Dem. Here's a poll that speaks to the contrary. Any of you surprised? Any of you honest enough to admit that it's just possible that you were very wrong?

I'm usually sit just left of centre, and I'd prefer to see McCain win over either Clinton or Obama.

But, if Obama does win, I'll be calling him President Hussein just for you.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by tie 

Big Mac, do you even use a Mac? Try command-control-D, it gives you a dictionary lookup! (On Windows, well...)

Ironically, it's only by you never visiting the mac forums here that you'd fail to notice how often other members post there. Do you come here just for the politics?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

Hillary's use of her maiden name is irrelevant to this discussion. Is there something suspicious about John McCain not using his middle name (Sidney)? Do you use your middle name? I certainly don't use mine. The "flinch factor" you describe is an unfortunate side-effect of racism.. plain and simple. And this incessant obsession with Mr. Obama's middle name is more of the same. His middle name is of no significance.

and here I thought the "flinch factor" was due to it being the name of the dictator we recently evicted. Wow, color me embarrassed. It's not racism, just an unfortunate coincidence.

Yes, I use my middle name.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Ironically, it's only by you never visiting the mac forums here that you'd fail to notice how often other members post there. Do you come here just for the politics?

So Big Mac does use a Mac, and yet he is racist and doesn't know the definition of socialism. That blows my mind! (I'm switching to Linux right away.)

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Big Mac, as a political moderate I hardly support peeb's incessant left-wing attacks on anything remotely conservative, but I must say that your tactic of attacking Obama's political campaign because of his ethnic-sounding name is quite surprising.

It all fits together for him. He says in the other thread that the Democratic party is literally a force of evil that he believes should cease to exist. If he believes that, it makes perfect sense to want to defeat Obama and other Democrats using whatever tactics are necessary to destroy evil. We're not talking about a candidate or a party that should be debated in a battle of ideas in a democratic setting, we're talking about a destructive, evil entity to its core, in the mind of Big Mac.

[ironknee]

"mommy, daddy, why did you give me this first name? i could have been a contender, i could have been somebody..."

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

if Obama had a Jewish-sounding middle name

'Barack Mordechai Obama', it's even a pun!

The trick is to just drink so much you can't tell the difference between Barack Hussein Obama and John Sidney McCain.

[vmarks]

Actually, there's some discussion of names and their relation to success in Steven Leavitt's Freakonomics book.

[vmarks]

I use my middle name.

[nonhuman]

To post a little bit more on topic, while I agree that having the name Hussein certainly has the potential to be a political liability, it seems to me that his runaway popularity probably points to the fact that it's not as big a liability as one might think. Sure, some people are going to make a big deal about it, but, in general, those aren't people who are likely to vote for a Democrat no matter what his name is. By the same token, so many Republicans are complaining about how McCain isn't conservative enough (and Limbaugh said that McCain will destroy the Republican party), but they're ignoring the fact that it is the Republican party itself that has given McCain the nomination.

I think the targets are moving and the parties are changing. They're both learning from their mistakes and adjusting themselves to suit. And of course the more conservative wings of both parties (conservative as in opposed to change) are going to cause a ruckus about this, but in the end majority rules, and the majority of Democrats don't care what Obama's middle name is (and I suspect the majority of Republicans don't either), and the majority of Republicans are not as conservative as recent decades might make you think.

And I don't use my middle name, because if I did I'd have the same name as my dad. And even if I did, I wouldn't be avoiding any anti-semitism (Joshua vs. David).

[peeb]

Maybe the majority of America isn't buying the fear-mongering anymore about foreigners and people who sounds a bit like they might be (gasp!) Muslims?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

I use my middle name.

Lots of people do. Lots of people don't.

Do you generally call people by their middle name when those people don't use it, though? Do you call people by their middle name, when those people don't use it, in an attempt to create the impression of a connection with something negative for which they have no actual association?

I find it incredibly interesting that Clinton's campaign and Big Mac are employing identical strategies with regards to Obama.

[Uncle Skeleton]

I think it's just because he gets a tickle out of all the negative attention. Obama doesn't go by his middle name? Use it! Clinton does go by her middle name? Don't use it! You discover the Democratic Party dislikes the term "Democrat Party?" Don't just use it, "correct" them when they don't use it! Evolution supporters don't cotton to the label "Darwinist?" Use it!

Doesn't matter what the word actually means or doesn't, if it gets a rise then use it like a 10-year-old who just learned a new curse word! This is the Big Mac/Fox News lifestyle, don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Lots of people do. Lots of people don't.

Do you generally call people by their middle name when those people don't use it, though? Do you call people by their middle name, when those people don't use it, in an attempt to create the impression of a connection with something negative for which they have no actual association?

I find it incredibly interesting that Clinton's campaign and Big Mac are employing identical strategies with regards to Obama.

I call people by the correct honorific and their last name, unless we've been properly introduced.

Look at my posting history and you'll find that I tend to call Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton with the proper salutation. I tend to write Mr. Bush or President Bush. I may write Senator Obama and Senator Clinton.

I rarely write Barack and Hillary.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

I call people by the correct honorific and their last name, unless we've been properly introduced.

Look at my posting history and you'll find that I tend to call Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton with the proper salutation. I tend to write Mr. Bush or President Bush. I may write Senator Obama and Senator Clinton.

I rarely write Barack and Hillary.

Exactly. You are a respectful person.

[el chupacabra]

Hussein is one of the most common names in the world.

[CharlesS]

Hey, come to think of it, isn't Cain (as in John McCain) a villain from the Torah?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

John McCain killed his brother! Pass it on!

[CharlesS]

Not only that, but he wiped out a whopping 25% of the human race (at the time consisting of Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel)!

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Not only that, but he wiped out a whopping 25% of the human race (at the time consisting of Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel)!

but then mrs. cain somehow came along

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

but then mrs. cain somehow came along

Yep. Cain went to Nod, where he, his wife and many of his brethren dwelt. No mention of where those people came from, though.

[Kerrigan]

I think Obama will get the nomination, and I think he will develop a slight lead in McCain which will last for several months, but then I think that the Obama craze will reach full saturation as people begin to have second thoughts.

I just don't see his candidacy as based on anything solid. In an era of Putins and Medvedevs, Ahmadinejads, and Chinese ascendancy, I think that to elect someone who possesses such little substance is symptomatic of political weakness and perhaps even political suicide.

Unfortunately, the equation has changed much since the heyday of the 1990s. Europe, China, Russia, etc, are all aggressively embracing free market trade and capitalism, but Americans are clamoring about how they want out of Nafta. We need a leader who realizes that economic primacy is key, and one who is able to unflinchingly deal with the increasingly stern world leaders who are likely to challenge American interests as the decades wear on. It is my fear that Obama is going to be America's version of Gorbachev: our position in world affairs could collapse under his leadership.

[peeb]

The US's position in world leadership has collapsed under Bush. Obama might be able to repair some of the damage.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I just don't see his candidacy as based on anything solid. In an era of Putins and Medvedevs, Ahmadinejads, and Chinese ascendancy, I think that to elect someone who possesses such little substance is symptomatic of political weakness and perhaps even political suicide.

I'm interested in why you say he has little substance. Is it because he gives good speeches? Because the ability to speak well is not negatively correlated with substance - in fact, I'd say they're positively correlated (clear thoughts are a necessary precondition for clear speech). Is it because he hasn't been in politics for long enough? Is it because you don't believe he's made substantive policy proposals? In what ways do the other candidates, from his party or the other, have more substance?

[kido331]

Senator Obama gives good speeches, but when you break down what he says it almost always falls into 1 of 3 categories, 1) Bush sucks, 2) I agree with Hillary, and 3) people will listen and respond once they are asked by a nice guy like him. 1 serves as a popular position, 2 serves as a policy position, and 3 is unproven. On top of all of this, there are a lot of contradictions in Senator Obama's positions and speeches which people are largely ignoring.

[nonhuman]

What about his senate record? He has a strong history of introducing, sponsoring, and cosponsoring legislation. The bills and such that he supports generally also have support from others in the senate, often from both sides of the aisle.

[kido331]

from GovTrack: Barack Obama

Barack Obama has sponsored 129 bills since Jan 4, 2005, of which 120 haven't made it out of committee (Poor) and 1 were successfully enacted (Average, relative to peers). Obama has co-sponsored 548 bills during the same time period (Average, relative to peers).

[nonhuman]

Daily Kos: State of the Nation

It's a comparison between Clinton and Obama, but it shows that Obama does have a strong senate record. The conclusion is that Obama has a much better record in Senate than Clinton by a number of different measures.

Obama's Success:
S.AMDT.1041 to S.1082 To improve the safety and efficacy of genetic tests.
S.AMDT.3073 to H.R.1585 To provide for transparency and accountability in military and security contracting.
S.AMDT.3078 to H.R.1585 Relating to administrative separations of members of the Armed Forces for personality disorder.
S.AMDT.41 to S.1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
S.AMDT.524 to S.CON.RES.21 To provide $100 million for the Summer Term Education Program supporting summer learning opportunities for low-income students in the early grades to lessen summer learning losses that contribute to the achievement gaps separating low-income students from their middle-class peers.
S.AMDT.599 to S.CON.RES.21 To add $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy.
S.AMDT.905 to S.761 To require the Director of Mathematics, Science, and Engineering Education to establish a program to recruit and provide mentors for women and underrepresented minorities who are interested in careers in mathematics, science, and engineering.
S.AMDT.923 to S.761 To expand the pipeline of individuals entering the science, technology, engineering, and mathematics fields to support United States innovation and competitiveness.
S.AMDT.924 to S.761 To establish summer term education programs.
S.AMDT.2519 to H.R.2638 To provide that one of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5 million or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee certifies in writing to the agency awarding the contract or grant that the contractor or grantee owes no past due Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2588 to H.R.976 To provide certain employment protections for family members who are caring for members of the Armed Forces recovering from illnesses and injuries incurred on active duty.
S.AMDT.2658 to H.R.2642 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.2692 to H.R.2764 To require a comprehensive nuclear threat reduction and security plan.
S.AMDT.2799 to H.R.3074 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3137 to H.R.3222 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3234 to H.R.3093 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
S.AMDT.3331 to H.R.3043 To provide that none of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to enter into a contract in an amount greater than $5,000,000 or to award a grant in excess of such amount unless the prospective contractor or grantee makes certain certifications regarding Federal tax liability.
Senate Resolutions Passed:
S.RES.133 : A resolution celebrating the life of Bishop Gilbert Earl Patterson.
S.RES.268 : A resolution designating July 12, 2007, as "National Summer Learning Day".

[kido331]

and compared to Senator McCain, he is an amateur.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by kido331 

and compared to Senator McCain, he is an amateur.

True. But he's also more likely to survive the strain of the job. Plus he's got a better record of standing up for what he believes in and practicing what he preaches. I lost a lot of respect for McCain when he reversed himself and failed to vote against waterboarding. The same goes for his recent campaign finance problems.

Additionally, I refuse to vote for anyone who supported the USA PATRIOT act or initially voted in favor of going into Iraq. (And yes, I realize that this can't really be viewed as a positive for Obama because he wasn't a senator then.) Political pressures and consequences be damned, any politician who cares more about reelection than their oath of office doesn't get my vote.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The US's position in world leadership has collapsed under Bush. Obama might be able to repair some of the damage.

Hand-wringing about what the rest of the world thinks is unimportant.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular, or easy. That doesn't make it any less correct.

I fear a leader whose focus is on restoring popularity abroad will be regrettable.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Hand-wringing about what the rest of the world thinks is unimportant.

Doing the right thing isn't always popular, or easy. That doesn't make it any less correct.

I fear a leader whose focus is on restoring popularity abroad will be regrettable.

Agreed, but it's more than just popularity. Our ability to negotiate favorable treaties, to open up new markets for our exports, and yes, to some extent, to reduce the incidence of terrorist acts aimed against us are all helped by a positive image of the US abroad. (This isn't to say that we should be making nice with the terrorists, rather that we should be making nice with the people the terrorists recruit from while killing the terrorists, but that's a whole nother discussion.)

[peeb]

It's not about being popular, as non-human points out, it's about having the credibility and respect to get things done. On almost every issue the US has lost leadership credibility and does not have the ability to get what it needs done, primarily because Bush squandered a position of leadership that he inherited..

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Yep. Cain went to Nod, where he, his wife and many of his brethren dwelt. No mention of where those people came from, though.

They came from the land of Allegory, it's near Metaphortamia.

[ironknee]

it's about being respected. if the US decides to start another war for whatever reason, it would be great if the rest of the world understand and believe that the US has a very good reason to do so. after iraq, it's going to be hard to win back their confidence.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

They came from the land of Allegory, it's near Metaphortamia.

Oh, I thought it was Incestopia.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Big Mac, as a political moderate I hardly support peeb's incessant left-wing attacks on anything remotely conservative, but I must say that your tactic of attacking Obama's political campaign because of his ethnic-sounding name is quite surprising.

Even more surprising is your subsequent admission that you never entered politics partly because you knew people would attack you because of your Jewish-sounding name. Thus, it would seem that you're deliberately perpetuating the very stereotypes that have existed against your own people (and, it would seem, yourself) for thousands of years, and are roundly condemned today. (Your seeming argument that there's a difference between "racism" and "ethnic stereotyping" is very weak, because the overall effect is the same in this situation.)

Your defence seems to be "well it exists." I don't see how that somehow validates your open promotion of it. Hell, I'll be perfectly honest with you right now: my (Jewish) girlfriend sometimes points out to me my "Jewish stereotyping" of her friends, even if I think it's innocently/unconsciously done on my part. I think everyone has such stereotypes. They're inevitable. But in my mind, there's a difference between inevitable, unconscious stereotyping and deliberate promotion of stereotypes for a certain cause. As someone else noted, were a Jewish candidate named "John Smith" in the race, I for one would be offended if someone on this board insisted on calling him by his unused, Jewish middle name "Levi," as if that somehow made a difference to his candidacy.

To my mind, your deliberate and pointed use of "Hussein" in referring to Mr. Obama is downright shameful. To my mind it might even be doubly shameful given the tragic effect such stereotyping and racism have specifically had against the Jewish (your) people(s) for thousands of years. Maybe you're taking the "if you can't beat them, join them" approach, but I think it's sad.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

They came from the land of Allegory, it's near Metaphortamia.

I was thinking of the interpretation by the people from Literalia

[TETENAL]

YouTube - john.he.is

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Thus, it would seem that you're deliberately perpetuating the very stereotypes that have existed against your own people (and, it would seem, yourself) for thousands of years, and are roundly condemned today.

I'm wondering, what stereotypes would those be?

[peeb]

Give it a rest - trotting out your tired racism in every post is unproductive and tedious. Everyone knows what he's talking about.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm wondering, what stereotypes would those be?

The ones that say someone shouldn't be eligible to do something simply because their last name is Goldman, or Hussein, or Dubé, or Osayioniwabo, or Lee.


(I'll try not to post again as promised, but since you did ask for clarification....)

greg

[olePigeon]

I love Blazing Saddles.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Oh, I thought it was Incestopia.

No, that's where the Clintons are from.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

The ones that say someone shouldn't be eligible to do something simply because their last name is Goldman, or Hussein, or Dubé, or Osayioniwabo, or Lee.

What you're describing isn't stereotyping, it's a form of discrimination. And I never said anyone should be ineligible. I merely said Obama's name represents a political liability, which it does.

[Uncle Skeleton]

A bigger liability is casting the American people as a group so dumb we would discard the more qualified candidate in order to embrace our discriminations. It would be better if we could recognize our historical character flaws in order to mitigate them, not to exacerbate them.