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finboy · Apr 4, 2011, 04:19 PM

I can't believe that Apple hires people WITH GUNS to protect its stores. Hasn't there already been enough killing in this world?

Shooting-Reported-at-Otay-Ranch-Town-Center

I'm sure the family of the slain person (who we can't call a perpetrator, because that would be biased) will find a lawyer fast.

Can't somebody stop the madness?

boy8cookie · Apr 4, 2011, 04:26 PM

I'm laughing at your reaction, because it's ridiculous.

The Final Dakar · Apr 4, 2011, 04:30 PM

Wrongo Loungo

turtle777 · Apr 4, 2011, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by boy8cookie

I'm laughing at your reaction, because it's ridiculous.

I'm laughing at YOU, because finboy's post was clearly tongue-in-cheek.

-t

Athens · Apr 4, 2011, 05:27 PM

From an American perspective its business as usual. From the perspective of people from other places around the world it's a little shocking. Either way whats done is done. I don't see anything really news worthy about it except that it was a Apple Store. Had it been at a American Eagle store it wouldn't have been more then local news.

mattyb · Apr 4, 2011, 05:33 PM

TBH I couldn't give a shite about people getting shot while trying to rob a store by driving a car through it. Stuff in Libya and the Ivory Coast is far more shocking.

Laminar · Apr 4, 2011, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

From an American perspective its business as usual.

Remind us again how you're qualified to give an American perspective?

The Final Dakar · Apr 4, 2011, 05:39 PM

Greek name.

OAW · Apr 4, 2011, 06:22 PM

Armed robbery is a pretty dangerous career choice. You can easily end up dead. Oh well ... sucks to be him.

OAW

finboy · Apr 4, 2011, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

From an American perspective its business as usual.

It's business as usual to go around breaking into Apple Stores? To bring a gun while breaking into an Apple Store?

You're right, though; the governments all those furrin countries would likely find that upsetting. After all, aren't THEY the only ones who should have guns. Looting of this type could never happen in someplace as urbane and sophisticated as, say, Egypt or Libya.

FireWire · Apr 4, 2011, 09:05 PM

Well I'm not a thief, but I certainly wouldn't expect to be shot at while robbing an Apple Store.. come on, they have insurance for that! Maybe that's because I'm Canadian, but I wouldn't expect to find an ARMED security guard in a store! Here, only police officers and armored truck security can have guns. Certainly not joe-nobody security at Best Buy or similar... they're not supposed to have any kind of authority. In fact, I never speak to them or obey their instruction. Alarm goes off by mistake when I cross the door at Wal-Mart? I continue as if nothing had happened. They have no authority on anybody. They can't even detain you... you can even fight back legally if they try! When I worked in retail, we were even prohibited from interfering with a robbery, we were instructed to not chase the thief..

Shaddim · Apr 4, 2011, 09:13 PM

Great job by the security guy. Only people injured or killed were the perps. He deserves one hell of a raise.

turtle777 · Apr 4, 2011, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Great job by the security guy. Only people injured or killed were the perps. He deserves one hell of a raise.

-t

OldManMac · Apr 4, 2011, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Great job by the security guy. Only people injured or killed were the perps. He deserves one hell of a raise.

For once we agree!

Athens · Apr 4, 2011, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Remind us again how you're qualified to give an American perspective?

I live 20 minutes from America
I spend a ton of time in America
I work for an American Company
I speak to Americans daily
More then Half our Channels are American
Half the news I watch is American
Good portion of my Friends are American

A famous quote from Pierre Trudeau that says it all

Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt.

Athens · Apr 4, 2011, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by finboy

It's business as usual to go around breaking into Apple Stores? To bring a gun while breaking into an Apple Store?

You're right, though; the governments all those furrin countries would likely find that upsetting. After all, aren't THEY the only ones who should have guns. Looting of this type could never happen in someplace as urbane and sophisticated as, say, Egypt or Libya.

You know I was referring to Armed Guard, Armed Criminals, shoot out..... Unless your really trying to tell me this is the first time in America that Rent a Cops got into a gun fight with Criminals...

The US is one of the few countries that allows security to carry weapons. So yes in most of Europe, Australia, south Asian countries this type of thing would be shocking.

Athens · Apr 4, 2011, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Well I'm not a thief, but I certainly wouldn't expect to be shot at while robbing an Apple Store.. come on, they have insurance for that! Maybe that's because I'm Canadian, but I wouldn't expect to find an ARMED security guard in a store! Here, only police officers and armored truck security can have guns. Certainly not joe-nobody security at Best Buy or similar... they're not supposed to have any kind of authority. In fact, I never speak to them or obey their instruction. Alarm goes off by mistake when I cross the door at Wal-Mart? I continue as if nothing had happened. They have no authority on anybody. They can't even detain you... you can even fight back legally if they try! When I worked in retail, we were even prohibited from interfering with a robbery, we were instructed to not chase the thief..

If they saw you commit a crime they or and any one can place you under a citizens arrest which is legal and so is the detention until your handed over to a peace officer. Pretty sure its universal from coast to coast but then again a lot of things seem to be different in Quebec.

turtle777 · Apr 4, 2011, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

I live 20 minutes from America
I spend a ton of time in America
I work for an American Company
I speak to Americans daily
More then Half our Channels are American
Half the news I watch is American
Good portion of my Friends are American

Yet, for all the American influence, you still can't get off your Canadian horse.

-t

Athens · Apr 4, 2011, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

Yet, for all the American influence, you still can't get off your Canadian horse.

-t

What are you talking about

finboy · Apr 4, 2011, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

You know I was referring to Armed Guard, Armed Criminals, shoot out..... Unless your really trying to tell me this is the first time in America that Rent a Cops got into a gun fight with Criminals...

The US is one of the few countries that allows security to carry weapons. So yes in most of Europe, Australia, south Asian countries this type of thing would be shocking.

That makes sense (most places STILL don't let armed guards carry weapons here unless they're off-duty cops). So, when the cops don't have guns and the crooks do, what happens?

turtle777 · Apr 4, 2011, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

What are you talking about

The high horse of supposed superiority.

-t

Chongo · Apr 5, 2011, 12:33 AM

I like this report as well.
Florida Beauty Queen Shoots, Kills Intruder | West Orlando News Online 2011® Central Florida News, Info, Sports

A Florida beauty queen told police that she shot and killed an intruder as he fought with her fiance, after the man broke into the couple’s home earlier this month.

Robert (Bobby) Planthaber, Jr. (l) Meghan Brown (r) (Photo credit: Pibillwarner.wordpress.com)
25-year-old Meghan Brown, 2009 Miss Tierra Verde, told cops she opened the door of the home that she shares with her fiance, Robert (Bobby) Planthaber Jr. on March 12, around 3:00 am, believing that it was a friend who needed a bed for the night.
Enter, 42-year-old Albert Hill, the intruder. Hill at first attacked her, Miss Brown told police, then her fiance appeared after she screamed. The two men rolled around and scuffled.
As the two men fought, Miss Brown then went for her pink hand gun in a bedside drawer.
‘I had my gun drawn, focused in on him (Hill); as he moved, my gun moved. I waited for my shot, and when I saw an opening, I fired,’ Miss Brown told the St. Petersburg Times. She shot Hill four times.

Albert Hill
She added that she was ‘glad’ it had been her, as she was quite prepared. Not everyone would have been as prepared, she said.
Hill had a long rap sheet dating back to 1986 and has been in and out of prison. Previously he had been arrested for burglary, grand theft, dealing in cocaine and other crimes, reports the St. Petersburg Times.
The Pinellas County Sheriff’s Office is still investigating the fatal shooting.

FireWire · Apr 5, 2011, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by finboy

That makes sense (most places STILL don't let armed guards carry weapons here unless they're off-duty cops). So, when the cops don't have guns and the crooks do, what happens?

Well you let the thieves get away with a few iPhones and let the real crooks (insurances) pay for it!

Athens · Apr 5, 2011, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

The high horse of supposed superiority.

-t

what drugs are you smoking buddy

Athens · Apr 5, 2011, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by finboy

That makes sense (most places STILL don't let armed guards carry weapons here unless they're off-duty cops). So, when the cops don't have guns and the crooks do, what happens?

Dunno, our cops have guns.

freudling · Apr 5, 2011, 12:39 AM

You Americans are so damn desensitized to this. This is outrageous. 40 rounds emptied over stolen computers. Yes, they were armed. But certain they weren't going around shooting people. This is computers! Why are we still shooting people over theft? It's morally wrong.

subego · Apr 5, 2011, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

Yes, they were armed.

Fact.

Originally Posted by freudling

But certain they weren't going around shooting people.

Conjecture.

Originally Posted by freudling

Why are we still shooting people over theft?

AFAICT, they weren't shot for theft. They were shot because one of them pulled a gun.

Athens · Apr 5, 2011, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

You Americans are so damn desensitized to this. This is outrageous. 40 rounds emptied over stolen computers. Yes, they were armed. But certain they weren't going around shooting people. This is computers! Why are we still shooting people over theft? It's morally wrong.

What I read they pulled the gun out first and the guard was defending himself. Just a fact of life that a lot of criminals in the us are packing a gun. I wouldn't want to work security there with out one. But yes they are desensitized to it, which is sad.

chabig · Apr 5, 2011, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

The US is one of the few countries that allows security to carry weapons.

You have it backwards. The government doesn't allow us to carry guns. Our constitution denies it the power to prohibited us from carrying.

Big Mac · Apr 5, 2011, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by FireWire

Well you let the thieves get away with a few iPhones and let the real crooks (insurances) pay for it!

"Just let insurance pay for it" is very suspect morality and poor economics. That kind of attitude subsidizes crimes, and anything that is subsidized is almost guaranteed to increase. Passing on the cost of theft or fraud to insurance also increases the costs for everyone who needs to buy insurance since the insurers pass on the increased costs.

mattyb · Apr 5, 2011, 03:55 AM

Originally Posted by chabig

You have it backwards. The government doesn't allow us to carry guns. Our constitution denies it the power to prohibited us from carrying.

Except in the capital.

Spheric Harlot · Apr 5, 2011, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by finboy

I can't believe that Apple hires people WITH GUNS to protect its stores. Hasn't there already been enough killing in this world?

Shooting-Reported-at-Otay-Ranch-Town-Center

I'm sure the family of the slain person (who we can't call a perpetrator, because that would be biased) will find a lawyer fast.

Can't somebody stop the madness?

Can't you keep this bullshit flamebait in the Political Lounge?

subego · Apr 5, 2011, 04:45 AM

As it so happens...

OldManMac · Apr 5, 2011, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

You Americans are so damn desensitized to this. This is outrageous. 40 rounds emptied over stolen computers. Yes, they were armed. But certain they weren't going around shooting people. This is computers! Why are we still shooting people over theft? It's morally wrong.

Please don't make inaccurate statements if you don't know the facts.

Wiskedjak · Apr 5, 2011, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Great job by the security guy. Only people injured or killed were the perps. He deserves one hell of a raise.

I've no problem with the armed security guard, but I wonder if there's anything that guarantees all armed security guards are as effective as this one and not some schleb who barely knows how to use a gun and ends up being more dangerous to the public than the bad guys?

Wiskedjak · Apr 5, 2011, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Except in the capital.

And, except anything but the most benign guns (relatively speaking)

Laminar · Apr 5, 2011, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

Why are we still shooting people over theft? It's morally wrong.

...as if this was absolute.

turtle777 · Apr 5, 2011, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

Why are we still shooting people over theft?

So you admit doing it yourself. Good, that's a start.

-t

ShortcutToMoncton · Apr 5, 2011, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by freudling

Why are we still shooting people over armed theft? It's morally wrong.

Someone pulls out a gun so they can scare people and steal something, and it's morally wrong that someone else then shoots them?

Everything about your logic is morally wrong.

andi*pandi · Apr 5, 2011, 10:30 AM

Why do I think freudling is playing devil's advocate?

The Final Dakar · Apr 5, 2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

Why do I think freudling is playing devil's advocate?

modus operandi

finboy · Apr 5, 2011, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

Just a fact of life that a lot of criminals in the us are packing a gun.

I think the statistics show that the overwhelming majority of criminals in the US don't carry guns, but it's the ones who do that you gotta watch out for.

Chongo · Apr 5, 2011, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by chabig

You have it backwards. The government doesn't allow us to carry guns. Our constitution denies it the power to prohibited us from carrying.

Originally Posted by mattyb

Except in the capital.

The SCOTUS struck down that law, as was one in Chicago.

Athens · Apr 5, 2011, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by chabig

You have it backwards. The government doesn't allow us to carry guns. Our constitution denies it the power to prohibited us from carrying.

Personal ownership at home yes, but a work place can still deny you the right to have a gun at work. State laws also limit what you can and can't have in public places too. Some places actually made it law that every one carry a gun while others prohibit it. New York State for example if I remember correctly you are not allowed to carry guns around at all and they even limit Handgun ownership. The fact that it is up to the work place is prob why most rent a cops in the US are packing because they have the option to allow it. And im guessing only in states that allow permits to carry as well. I haven't looked but I would not be surprised if some states make it really hard for security guards to carry.

Athens · 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

"Just let insurance pay for it" is very suspect morality and poor economics. That kind of attitude subsidizes crimes, and anything that is subsidized is almost guaranteed to increase. Passing on the cost of theft or fraud to insurance also increases the costs for everyone who needs to buy insurance since the insurers pass on the increased costs.

Well look at it from this point of view then. Safety, not insurance. If you got gun battles breaking out like this in public places, 1 employees are at risk of being shoot and killed. The general public in the area is at risk of being shoot and killed. So take your pick higher insurance for a few thousand dollar items or a few real high medical bills in the tens of thousands and more for treating accidently wounded people.

Using violence with violence tends to make things more violent all around. And I might make a post about it in the PL because it is a good debate topic on its own.

Originally Posted by finboy

I think the statistics show that the overwhelming majority of criminals in the US don't carry guns, but it's the ones who do that you gotta watch out for.

Prob, more populated nation, more sensational TV news makes for a impression more carry guns, at least compared to most other western countries. I still think its the risk factor of being challeneged by some one else with a gun and the harsh criminal sentences the legal system hands out that makes for more violent criminals. If you rob a store you better be packing because the clerk might have a gun and if not the clerk another customer. Better not get caught and do or die to get away because if you are its 20+ years in jail.

turtle777 · Apr 5, 2011, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

Well look at it from this point of view then. Safety, not insurance. If you got gun battles breaking out like this in public places, 1 employees are at risk of being shoot and killed. The general public in the area is at risk of being shoot and killed.

Strawman.

How many innocent bystanders get shot / killed by weapons fired from private security guards ? Very very few. (I have never heard a news story about that - but that's just anecdotal.)
How many innocent bystanders get shot / killed by armed robbers ? Quite a few.

-t

Athens · Apr 5, 2011, 12:51 PM

Strawman my ass. Its fact. More people get killed during a mutual exchange gun battle at a armed robbery then those that offer no resistance. Its rare that an armed robber is going to kill any one just for the sake of killing some one. Usually its because some one fought back.

turtle777 · Apr 5, 2011, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

Strawman my ass. Its fact. More people get killed during a mutual exchange gun battle at a armed robbery then those that offer no resistance. Its rare that an armed robber is going to kill any one just for the sake of killing some one. Usually its because some one fought back.

Yes, your ass is where this strawman belongs.

What "its" fact ? That more innocent bystanders get killed by armed security guards than by perpetrators ?

Bullshit. Stop making stuff up.

-t

Shaddim · Apr 5, 2011, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

I've no problem with the armed security guard, but I wonder if there's anything that guarantees all armed security guards are as effective as this one and not some schleb who barely knows how to use a gun and ends up being more dangerous to the public than the bad guys?

To get a permit to carry and get bonded you have to show a certain degree of proficiency, about as much as any average gun-toting peace officer.

finboy · Apr 5, 2011, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Passing on the cost of theft or fraud to insurance also increases the costs for everyone who needs to buy insurance since the insurers pass on the increased costs.

Uh, they pass on the increased costs to the folks buying insurance (the folks with the security guard). That's yet another reason that a lot of security guards are not allowed to carry guns in the first place - lawyers.

With respect to Athens' comments thus far:

The idea that armed citizens necessitate the arming of crooks is ludicrous. Arming oneself is very risky and expensive, and not a decision to be taken lightly in a business context (see above). I'd argue that crooks with knives, bats, etc. drove honest citizens to the point that they'd have guns sitting around ready.

The naivete of some of these comments (not just Athens) is alarming. There are bad people in the world (like the guy who broke into the Apple Store). They will kill you for what you have, or for whatever for that matter. They will kill you if you see them do something that could put them back into prison. They might kill you if you look at them the wrong way.

I just found it surprising that someone had to die so that people could have their iPad 2s.