[Axo1ot1]

In many western democracies and increasingly all over the world a popular concept in criminal justice is Due Process.

Due process is a system that is intended to drastically reduce and hopefully even eliminate wrongful incarceration and reprimand of innocent people. Due process holds that nobody is guilty until they have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers. The system has flaws, for sure, but the basic idea of it is sound. You are not a judge, iWrite. You are an easily hyped internet dope. When you read a sensationalist news article on Yahoo! news you should look for words like "suspect," "alleged" and "accused." These key words will tip you off that the perpetrator of the crime has not yet been found by a court, and thus you should not come on here dealing out death penalties left and right.

"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
� _J.R.R. Tolkien

[John F.U. Smith]

Liberal: What about due process?
Conservative: Terrorist!!!!!

[iWrite]

And there you have it: I'm not a liberal.

Now we're discussing politics. Fine with me.

I believe that things are pretty black and white -- the "problem" with conservatives according to liberals.

For example, I believe that people KNOW when they are doing something right or wrong, period. I don't believe in "gray areas." That is known as rationalization. This guy that perved on the 2-month old baby knew that what he was doing was wrong -- there is no doubt in my mind. He deserves LEGAL due process, yes. But, let's differentiate: We're at an online forum where reality is a slippery slope. Yes, in my mind this guy is convicted. In reality he is not. Trust me, I understand due process. My brother is a U.S. attorney so we have all sorts of interesting Sunday family conversations.

Do I have compassion for people? Hell yes.

Do I have compassion for pedophiles and predators such as the one I mentioned above? Hardly.

However, as a citizen of this country I am obligated to let the legal system wrangle justice out of this situation and I trust that it will. Now, "due process" once this guy gets to jail is another story, isn't it? I'll be surprised if he makes it past a year in jail.

[John F.U. Smith]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Do I have compassion for people? Hell yes.

Do I have compassion for pedophiles and predators such as the one I mentioned above? Hardly.

However, as a citizen of this country I am obligated to let the legal system wrangle justice out of this situation and I trust that it will. Now, "due process" once this guy gets to jail is another story, isn't it? I'll be surprised if he makes it past a year in jail.

THe problem is that reality is a horribly slippery slope in every respect. So we execute one man who rapes a baby without a trial. Alright. Then we do it to a man who rapes a little girl. Then a man who kidnaps a little girl. Then a man who picked a lost little girl up from the park with the intent of actually bringing her home. Oh man, what a sick ****, let's pull him out of the car and execute his ass!

Truth is, we have the current legal system for a reason. If you want for it to be legal for King Bush to cast you off into Guantanamo Bay indefinitely, be my guest to move to a fascist or malevolently communist country. If not, then you have to accept that some freedoms are too great to ever, EVER compromise for any reason. Now that's pretty damn black and white.

Edit: Or just stay here. Man, the Patriot Act roxxors!!!

[iWrite]

One more thing?

"Due process" is a rather sterile and generic term, even a euphemism, for ensuring legal compassion for a person charged with a crime -- via a set of legal rules.

In other words: Legalese.

Do I believe that people are to be discarded? After a certain point, yes I do.

I am a realist and I have a fairly deep faith. We're each of us here for about 80 years if we're lucky. We have a limited amount of time to prove our worth to ourselves, our families, and our fellow man. Society, and on a larger scale humanity, needs to grow and move forward in a healthy manner. Just as if I had a malignant cancer I would cut it out -- even if it meant losing a body part -- people are the same cancer with respect to society if they damage and kill healthy and whole members of society. They need to be cut out and discarded so that their disease does not spread or ruin another part of society -- as a cancer metastasizes to other healthy body parts. Criminals, left to run amuck, could ruin society permanently. That is why we have a legal system -- "due process."

I do not believe in nurturing cancers, in my body or in society, no.

That is why I am not against the death penalty for extreme cases of human abuses committed by criminals.

This guy who raped a 2-month old is done -- he had his chance. He is a cancer that should not be protected, shielded, or nurtured in ANY way.

This is MY perspective, that's all. It may not be your perspective.

[John F.U. Smith]

It's official: you are BATSHIT INSANE.

Opinions like yours are a tumor in the brain of society. I suggest going out and killing as many people as you can who hold similar beliefs to yours. Then please turn the gun on yourself. Thanks.

[Gankdawg]

Originally posted by iWrite:
One more thing?

"Due process" is a rather sterile and generic term, even a euphemism, for ensuring legal compassion for a person charged with a crime -- via a set of legal rules.

In other words: Legalese.

Do I believe that people are to be discarded? After a certain point, yes I do.

I am a realist and I have a fairly deep faith. We're each of us here for about 80 years if we're lucky. We have a limited amount of time to prove our worth to ourselves, our families, and our fellow man. Society, and on a larger scale humanity, needs to grow and move forward in a healthy manner. Just as if I had a malignant cancer I would cut it out -- even if it meant losing a body part -- people are the same cancer with respect to society if they damage and kill healthy and whole members of society. They need to be cut out and discarded so that their disease does not spread or ruin another part of society -- as a cancer metastasizes to other healthy body parts. Criminals, left to run amuck, could ruin society permanently. That is why we have a legal system -- "due process."

I do not believe in nurturing cancers, in my body or in society, no.

That is why I am not against the death penalty for extreme cases of human abuses committed by criminals.

This guy who raped a 2-month old is done -- he had his chance. He is a cancer that should not be protected, shielded, or nurtured in ANY way.

This is MY perspective, that's all. It may not be your perspective.

Agree 100%.

[Axo1ot1]

Originally posted by iWrite:
One more thing?

"Due process" is a rather sterile and generic term, even a euphemism, for ensuring legal compassion for a person charged with a crime -- via a set of legal rules.

In other words: Legalese.

Do I believe that people are to be discarded? After a certain point, yes I do.

I am a realist and I have a fairly deep faith. We're each of us here for about 80 years if we're lucky. We have a limited amount of time to prove our worth to ourselves, our families, and our fellow man. Society, and on a larger scale humanity, needs to grow and move forward in a healthy manner. Just as if I had a malignant cancer I would cut it out -- even if it meant losing a body part -- people are the same cancer with respect to society if they damage and kill healthy and whole members of society. They need to be cut out and discarded so that their disease does not spread or ruin another part of society -- as a cancer metastasizes to other healthy body parts. Criminals, left to run amuck, could ruin society permanently. That is why we have a legal system -- "due process."

I do not believe in nurturing cancers, in my body or in society, no.

That is why I am not against the death penalty for extreme cases of human abuses committed by criminals.

This guy who raped a 2-month old is done -- he had his chance. He is a cancer that should not be protected, shielded, or nurtured in ANY way.

This is MY perspective, that's all. It may not be your perspective.

So what's your faith if you aren't Christian?

[John F.U. Smith]

Originally posted by iWrite:
This guy who raped a 2-month old is done -- he had his chance. He is a cancer that should not be protected, shielded, or nurtured in ANY way.

This is MY perspective, that's all. It may not be your perspective.

As a more rational response: How does throwing him in jail for life allow the "cancer" to spread. The death penalty is nothing more than life in prison, minus the ability to appeal in the case that a person is wrongfully convicted.

[iWrite]

deleted

[MindFad]

Nuckin' futs.

I'm gonna have to echo this:

"It's official: you are BATSHIT INSANE.

Opinions like yours are a tumor in the brain of society. I suggest going out and killing as many people as you can who hold similar beliefs to yours. Then please turn the gun on yourself. Thanks."

You're not being tough, rational, or providing boundaries. You just wanna kill everybody. I don't think there's any teaching of lessons in killing everyone, for the person being killed, or the society they live in, and that's apparent in how many people we actually do kill today. I think we *think* we're teaching lessons, but no one's learning, including ourselves. NUCKING FUTS.

And skipping school? Juvey? I would've killed his ass right there. No more skipping school again. GUESS WHAT!? EVAR!

I'm moving to Liverpool.

[iWrite]

deleted

[Yose]

...looks up satire in sherlock...

[Face Ache]

You were lucky. I used t' live in 'ole in middle t' road!

[MindFad]

Never mind.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Yose:
...looks up satire in sherlock...

Yep, I learned this the hard way a while ago too. You have to put a </sarcasm> tag and a billion smileys or the MacNN Literalists� will jump on you.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by MindFad:
I'm moving to Liverpool.

sounds cool to me.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by philzilla:
sounds cool to me.

Room on the floor for me, then? I'll need at least a 6'5" x 3'-ish space and a Guinness for breakfast everyday. A Josh can be a lot of responsibility. But not as much as a G4ME, with a steel bucket and sixer of uNF Lite everyday.

[Tulkas]

iWrite:

I really don't agree with what you did to your kid. Maybe they were heartily stubborn and rebellious but I highly doubt that was the best way to handle it. Perhaps there was no permanent damage to your relationship with her.

I can't really argue with your ideas. I can't say I agree entirely. For instance I don't think anything short of murder deserves death. But if its premeditated murder done in cold blood then yes, that person should be shown no leniency. Pervs should get life without parole, but death is not something to be dealt out for the betterment of society. Sadly, society will outlive us all and there is little 1 criminal or 1 million can do to bring it down.

Here we don't have the death penalty and instead we deal out life without parole. I also happen to live in the city with the highest homicide rate in all of canada. Unfortunately alot of pervs get off and there are many repeat offenders, far more sexual assaults than there should be. All this is primarily due to the aboriginal community for the most part. Our society hasn't decayed yet.

I am also kind of proud of your views. Its always nice to see a mother who actually cares for her children

edit: just noticed how crappily that was written.. meh, its early...

[fireside]

Originally posted by iWrite:
We also do not physically discipline our children -- never have.

yep, i guess you can say sending your kid off to juevy wasnt physical. but maybe your kid had problems at school. maybe she was getting depressed. its people like you that make me sick - you either work for us or we make you work for us. i mean, this is your kid and you didnt even look into it. she could have been being beat-up at school, harassed, etc, but no, you just promptly sent the kid off to jail. nucking futs.

iWrite's respect level: 0.1

[iWrite]

deleted

[dillerX]

give up. seriously.

[fireside]

i give up diller. now give me porn.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by iWrite:
It's black and white. Right and wrong. Legal and illegal.

It never is that simple in real life. But okay - the judgement is your prerogative, and if it comes to haunt your daughter when she's forty and in therapy, c'est la vie.

Originally posted by iWrite:
Incidentally, KarlG, I am sorry if I offended you because you thought that I labeled you, in particular, a pedophile. That was not my intent.

That was necessary.

-s*

[xenu]

Due process is a joke.

Factnet.org

Holysmoke

Operatingthetan

[theolein]

iWrite: I can see quite clearly why other people call you crazy and nuts and other things. Whether you are is another thing altogether, but your tirade of siding with Hitler and making your Holocaust child's status known and accusation and belated apology to KarlG were really strange. It seemd for all the world that you had lost it for a while there.

I congratulate you on your success with your oldest child, although the timing was a it strange to me. You said that you are now in your late 30's (37 to 39 I assume) and that this incident with your daughter happened many years ago when she was 15, and that she is now at some university which makes me think she is now 18 or 19. If I may ask, just how old were you when you had your first child?

[quandarry]

hmmm...i wonder if haiti has due process right now?

i hear their club med is great.

[iWrite]

deleted

[forkies]

iwrite, you seem to have very different views of success than i do. you flaunt your financial well-being, personal education, and the education of your kids like they are trophies. why do you feel like you need to validate your life to others?

from Duncan Sheik's "Nothing Special":

Maybe these are wonders...more than we may know
Well I hate to steal your thunder
You ain't nothing special
You're no more celestial than anyone else
As far as I can tell
Call it mythology, we see what we want to see
And everyone wants their distant dreams



take care...

[iWrite]

I don't consider it "flaunting" my success.

I consider it my life experiences.

I don't consider myself successful except in the financial sense; everything else is ongoing. Am I proud of my children? Yes. But, not because of me -- but because they earned it and because they're really incredible people.

If I discuss my life experiences here then it's because I'm giving a glimpse of my life, that's all. Sometimes life experiences explain a person's perspective and why they think the way they do.

I have worked hard all of my life and have some modicum of financial security and yes, "success." That doesn't make me think, "Gosh, I must be better than others."

What it makes me realize is that if I can achieve certain milestones, ANYONE can.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking...unlike others.

I voiced my opinion. Even the title of this thread is patently condescending. I responded.

For responding to commentary people like you make your snarky comments about how I am "flaunting" my success -- which isn't the case.

What's interesting is that people seem to think they KNOW someone here by their posts.

For all you know, everything I've written is a huge gigantic fiction.

You never know, do you?

Mental masturbation.

[Face Ache]

'Ole in t' road? LUXURY!

We used t' get up at 'alf past four (two hours before we went to bed) t' go t' mine, work twenty two hours...

[Link]

Due process is existant to keep people like iWrite from killing off half the world's population.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by forkies:
iwrite, you seem to have very different views of success than i do. you flaunt your financial well-being, personal education, and the education of your kids like they are trophies. why do you feel like you need to validate your life to others?

so if one talks about their screw-ups and goof-ups like ca$h often does is

he flaunting his speeding tickets like trophies?

i guess he must be, eh?

[iWrite]

Yeah, you're right: YOU live with the half that is so mentally disturbed that they're having sex with 2-month old infants.

Sickos.

Go save 'em, Link. They're ALL YOURS.

[iWrite]

You've got THAT right, quandarry: I've sure screwed up a few things in my life. Probably a lot more than a few things.

As I mentioned, the only reason I even mention life experiences is because my point is that if I have some measure of contentment, success, whatever-you-want-to-call-it, ANYONE can. I'm not any more special or smarter or luckier than anyone else.

In fact, I've had a child kidnapped and held for ransom for a few days by a bonded and licensed "professional" child care person that we hired -- remember when I discussed that? So, crimes against children really upset me. You have NO IDEA what it FEELS like to think that your child has been really hurt, maimed, or killed.

I do.

Longtime MacNNers will remember me discussing this a few months ago.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by iWrite:
Yeah, you're right: YOU live with the half that is so mentally disturbed that they're having sex with 2-month old infants.

I... um...







Florida eh?



No, I'm going with andi and putting it down to some weird pregnancy thing. I'm sure you're a very nice, sane lady.

Usually.

[Captain Obvious]

I in no way believe most of the things you claim. For instance the fact you went to Harvard. If you are in your late thirties and have a child old enough to be of college age then you had to get knocked up around the age of 18. The statistical odds that you were able to pull off finishing college, at no less than 3 institutions which seem to gain in rankings as you progress with your timeline, and have another 2 kids while being married and working are pretty goddamn low. But I will say I really do believe you were a teenage mom.

Also your misuse of terminology and concepts draws reasons to scrutinize. Not your style of writing mind you, because that I can understand. It�s far easier to write off the top of your head on here than to watch form and grammar when its not even really relevant or taken into consideration. Rather its your lack of understanding over things you should know about and have the depth to explain before you bring them up that is off. Maybe if you had drawn some distinction between types of due process before you dismissed it as "legalese" for legal compassion I wouldn't have noticed but that sentence doesn't even make sense. The essence of it revolves around basic fairness any competing theories after that deal substantive and procedural forms of what should be incorporated. You reflect a familiarity with the terms but the lack of breadth and knowledge to use it correctly. Which has always led me to believe you were some kind of glorified proofreader if anything remotely close to what you claim your job description is.

I don't think you sent your own child to juvenile detention and that they kept them there for a week for just truancy. I can't be positive but I am pretty sure your story could not happen the way you said. My stepfather was a case worker for a private social services firm and I got to hear about a lot of his cases when I lived at home. And maybe this is just because I lived in a large city but adolescent detention centers don't really have the resources and time to take kids on the word of their whacko parents who want to scare them straight. In fact unless you turned them into police and DCFS for a serious crime I don't think they could just hold the child there for that long of a period of time. And then they could only release them after assigning a case worker and having a hearing over the incident that landed them there. As I said I can't be positive since I wasn't allowed to look at the details of his cases so my experience is limited but I am sure its highly improbable that it was as simple as you make it sound.

What disappoints me the most if the lack of conviction you have in what you say. I mean if you are going to spurt things out that will inflame people you have to really believe in it. You almost always backpedal when people shove and that goes all the way back to your really stupid Kobe thread. Everyone has visceral reactions to things but when you choose to express them here at least stand by them. Don't go adding all these ifs and buts after the fact. I say things people don't like all the time and I don't go whining about it after saying, "you don't know me you can't judge me." If you feel that strongly that you had to say it then you should have the fortitude to not care or balk when people challenge you. And if you felt the need to share the details of your life with strangers then you open yourself up to judgment so deal with it or don�t do it.

In conclusion maybe you married into money, maybe your kids really a hybrid of Doogie Fcuking Howser and Mother Theresa, and maybe your brother is a US attorney that helped discover AIDS while he was moonlighting as a doctor but somewhere in there I found it and you hard to swallow. I could be wrong but honestly I couldn't care less if I was, I just don't like you.

[Axo1ot1]

Originally posted by xenu:
Due process is a joke.

Factnet.org

Holysmoke

Operatingthetan

Nobody is saying that due process always works or that the system is infallible. In fact, I'd say that that is precisely why capital punishment is an insane idea. Lots of people accused of capital crimes get wrongfully incarcerated. Occasionally they are exonerated years later. If we kill people immediately we will inevitably kill innocent people.

[forkies]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
intriguing post

wow, that was a...brutally honest post (about lying, oddly enough)

i hardly EVER think about the integrity of the person posting or question the accuracy of what is being said. what would someone have to gain by lying? it's a sad thought that some people would actually do so, but maybe i'm just too trusting?

cool post Cap'n

[iWrite]

Captain WHATVER:
I in no way believe most of the things you claim. For instance the fact you went to Harvard.

I never, ever, said I went to Harvard.

Next time get your facts straight.

Out of all of the people here at the forums, including the ones I occasionally vehemently disagree with, at least I respect their opinions -- even if I'm in the process of arguing with them.

Yours, I don't -- not in the least -- because you can NEVER get your facts straight.



I didn't even read past your first sentence.

At least the other people can upset me...you just...bore me.

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

(quandarry...we need to have a cup of coffee...)

Peace, everyone.

[John F.U. Smith]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
Also your misuse of terminology and concepts draws reasons to scrutinize. Not your style of writing mind you, because that I can understand. It�s far easier to write off the top of your head on here than to watch form and grammar when its not even really relevant or taken into consideration. Rather its your lack of understanding over things you should know about and have the depth to explain before you bring them up that is off. Maybe if you had drawn some distinction between types of due process before you dismissed it as "legalese" for legal compassion I wouldn't have noticed but that sentence doesn't even make sense. The essence of it revolves around basic fairness any competing theories after that deal substantive and procedural forms of what should be incorporated. You reflect a familiarity with the terms but the lack of breadth and knowledge to use it correctly. Which has always led me to believe you were some kind of glorified proofreader if anything remotely close to what you claim your job description is.

I should have spotted this but instead glazed over it because of a sheer desensitization to "internet logic." Sometimes internet logic makes me wonder if most people would recognize a contrapositive if it raped their 2 month-old baby.

[anti-sleep]

Originally posted by iWrite:
I never, ever, said I went to Harvard.

Next time get your facts straight.

It's rather difficult to get one's facts straight when you delete the contents of all your previous posts. It's almost like you have something to hide. Weird.

[Axo1ot1]

iWrite. I've just about given up on you. Especially since reading the Hitlerific things you have deigned to post in this thread and the outright nutty things you have posted in other threads such as this one, for example. You demonstrate very little in the way rational thought. Even noted lunatics such as Zimphire and Captain Obvious have taken the time to point out the inherant battiness in the sh�t you post, so I, another lunatic, am going to make an effort to open your mind a little bit. Please listen to this radio program and consider our justice system through the lens it provides. If you are able to step back and approach this with an open mind you might just see what you're missing.

[John F.U. Smith]

Originally posted by iWrite:
At least the other people can upset me...you just...bore me.

Apparently, a lot of people must piss you off. Look at this thread I found. http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=170536

Not one single person on these forums agrees with you on this death penalty issue. Not one. Not the liberals, not the conservatives, not the foreigners, not even the religious fundamentalists. Occasionally you post some horrific story about raping babies or something and a few people pop in and say: that horrible, kill the guy who did it. Please do not accept this as valid agreement. A person doesn't count as agreeing with you unless they know what you actually, honestly think.

This said, I think you should reconsider your point of view. What if some bastard killed your daughter and framed you, how would you feel on death row? Would it be righteous to kill you without due process? What about if the case looks really clean cut? Is it still cool to EXECUTE INNOCENTS as long as they look very guilty? That's not justice, that's murder.

[iWrite]

Well, now YOU raised an interesting and provocative point that was well thought out and I WILL think about that, yes.

I have contemplated that and other facts. Such as the fact that the governor of Illinois got rid of the death penalty last year.

Anyway, yes, I know that a lot of people disagree with me. But, if you were to read through the other thread (now locked) there were a LOT of people who agreed. Read it -- you'll see their names. In fact, some of them suggested extreme forms of torture then death.

There is no "right" answer to this question. I am discussing this one particular issue involving A man who raped a 2-month old infant -- allegedly. That's all.

If he is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have done this -- and apparently there are pictures of him DOING this -- then I have to repeat that I am 100% behind his being put to death.

It will never happen, of course, unless he ends up in prison and prison justice takes over.

Sometimes prison justice is more equitable than legal due process, I suppose.

About the larger issue of the death penalty? I'm not going there, sorry. One part of me advocates it and one does not.

[forkies]

Originally posted by iWrite:
About the larger issue of the death penalty? I'm not going there, sorry. One part of me advocates it and one does not.

which part, the black or white? (there is no grey!!)

[John F.U. Smith]

Originally posted by forkies:
which part, the black or white? (there is no grey!!)

Highfive!

[ASIMO]

Wow. Amazing. The ever modest iRighteous strikes again. Such humility, such integrity, such conviction. Such RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yummy. I could eat you up!

[Captain Obvious]

My mistake, Yale. I didn't really feel like checking up on the exact details of your posts. I just went by the impression I remember when I read them and laughed.

My point doesn't really change with the mistake. To save you the trouble of reading: the summation of my post is that you are stupid, as in dumb and weak minded.

By the way George Ryan did not impose a moratorium out of moral conviction he found after looking at the cases. It was a Hail Mary political attempt to try and leave some legacy of his term outside the bribes scandal he is going to be remembered for.

Originally posted by Axo1ot1:
Even noted lunatics such as Zimphire and Captain Obvious have taken the time to point out the inherant battiness in the sh�t you post,

OK see I disagree with that label. The problem people have with my posts is that I have zero respect for others and for things they value because I find most things/people trivial. Which comes from my lack of belief in the equality of individuals. And the fact I don't apologize for that. I really don't post religious, political, or moral opinions that are far fetched from either side of center. You might find one example but that's because people are too attached to their pets. The core of my conservatism comes by way of fiscal policy and hatred of over legislation.

[quandarry]

Originally posted by Captain Obvious:
<snip dribble>

you are a complete and utter idiot of the nth magnitude.

you make me ashamed of being the same species.

i can't and won't waste anymore brain matter on you except these three short lines.