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lookmark · Jul 25, 2002, 03:33 PM

So, I was mulling over what Apple could do to make Services easier to use -- more friendly and visible to the average user. Adding a Services menu as global item in contextual items (as often discussed here) would make using them less of mousetrip, to be sure. But still not very visible, and a long menu can get unwieldy and annoying... it could veer dangerously close to Windows UI territory.

In any case, whether in addition to a contextual-menu item or by itself, what do people think about a global Services palette?

This would be much in the spirit of the Font and Colors palettes, and the new Jaguar Character Palette. It would house all Services, in a neat little floating panel.

But it could be even better. It would offer:

- New usability. It would allow for drag-and-dropping text into Services.
- Consistency. Just like the current Services menu, items in the palette would ghosted out if unavailable.
- Flexibility. And finally, if Services had icons, it could aid greatly in their differentation and user-friendliness. If this addition to the HUI were made, you could have a Services palette with the choice of text / icons and text / or icons only.

What do people think? Better? Worse? Apple Feedback-worthy? Anyone have other ideas for improving Services?

Here are some mockups I made of this idea (still a bit sketchy!):

<img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_palette_texticons.gif" alt=" - " />
With icons and text.

<img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_palette_text.gif" alt=" - " />
Text.

<img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_palette_icons.gif" alt=" - " />
Icons.

[ 07-25-2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: lookmark ]

ksuther · Jul 25, 2002, 03:57 PM

Sounds like a good third party application, not something Apple would do.

Nonsuch · Jul 25, 2002, 04:13 PM

Not bad at all. The icons certainly lend it an air of elegance. If it could be evoked cleanly and quickly (system-wide key combo) it would be worth a try.

lookmark · Jul 25, 2002, 04:20 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ksuther:
Sounds like a good third party application, not something Apple would do.<hr /></blockquote>No, if something like this were to happen, it would have to be by Apple, and not a third party. Here's why:

- Only Apple could update its HUI guidelines to advise developers to provide icons for Services. I've used a bunch of duplicate and generic icons in my sketches; Apple would the authority and know-how to suggest a style of Service iconography.

- It would have to be global, thus built into the system -- part of the Cocoa/Carbon frameworks.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nonsuch:
Not bad at all. The icons certainly lend it an air of elegance. If it could be evoked cleanly and quickly (system-wide key combo) it would be worth a try.<hr /></blockquote>Thanks! Definitely, it would have a system-wide key combo.

Option-command-V, perhaps, or somethin'.

[ 07-25-2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: lookmark ]

Developer · Jul 25, 2002, 04:35 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lookmark:
[QB] <img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_palette_text.gif" alt=" - " />
Text.<hr /></blockquote>What's the difference between this and a menu - except that a menu doesn't use any additional space when you don't use it?

I see no advantage.

lookmark · Jul 25, 2002, 04:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
What's the difference between this and a menu - except that a menu doesn't use any additional space when you don't use it?
[/QB]<hr /></blockquote>Well, first of all, the Services Panel wouldn't replace the Services menu. So if you didn't want to use it, you wouldn't have to. But you'd have the option of launching the panel via a key command, or from a item in the application's Services menu.

Also, I agree that the above picture (text-only palette) could be tighter.

But why use a palette/panel at all? Why not just use a menu?

Here's my take on it. A panel/palette makes sense only when the actions that they contain are very often used. As I'm sure you're aware, going on menu trips for very repeated actions becomes very quickly tiresome, even exhausting. Thus the use of toolbars, panels, and the like.

My argument for a Services panel, in addition to a menu, is:

- Services can be extremely powerful and once you start you use 'em, you start to use 'em a lot. At least this has been my experience. Selecting your text, going up to the Apple Menu, and weaving your way through a number of menus is a -- as mentioned here by many -- big pain in the butt. Keyboard shortcuts help, but not every Service can have one (and already there's a few out there that frustratingly overlap with one another).

This offers a single command to bring up a panel which is user-configurable, and can be as unwieldy or compact as you'd like.

- Many users don't even know Services exist. A menu tucked away in the Application menu full of many options seems to get overlooked. A panel is more visual, user-friendly way of displaying them.

- As the number of Services add up, they become harder to keep track of. The use of icons would help differentiate the various Services. But also a panel could offer different ways of organizing and presenting various Services. (e.g. see the Fonts and Colors Panels.) A menu can't offer this kind of control and power.

- Services are also something unique to OS X -- they deserve a little pizazz. Don't you think?

- The ability to drag-and-drop into Services. I think this would be, well, kinda neat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[ 07-25-2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: lookmark ]

00101001 · Jul 25, 2002, 06:11 PM

Hey, I think it's a great idea...
to add to the sys-wide key command idea:

WHILE you are dragging something, imagine double-tapping the spacebar (or something) and the services window pops up under the cursor -- allowing you to drop whatever you are dragging in:

Ironfist.cmg · Jul 25, 2002, 09:14 PM

I think a better idea would be for Services to also have toolbar buttons, so you could customize Cocoa apps with their own unique set of Services, based on the user's needs and habits.

Be nice pimpage for the toolbar in Cocoa apps as well.

IF.cmg

lookmark · Jul 27, 2002, 10:01 AM

Some small adjustments and revisions:
<img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_panel_texticons_2.gif" alt=" - " />

A View option for switching between icon and text, text, or icons only. A Services Collections menu for switching between sets of Services (all, Internet, Text and Formatting, etc.).

Not sure about the buttons. It seems something should indicate that you can drag to these, or press them once text is selected. They're kind of odd combo widgets.

One more note. This idea is also proposed to account for the growth of Services in the future. Once Jaguar rolls in, and Services are much more standard across both Cocoa and Carbon apps, it's likely the number of Services will grow. Hopefully a Services Panel (or whatever solution Apple comes up with) will help manage them...

lookmark · Jul 27, 2002, 10:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ironfist.cmg:
I think a better idea would be for Services to also have toolbar buttons, so you could customize Cocoa apps with their own unique set of Services, based on the user's needs and habits.

Be nice pimpage for the toolbar in Cocoa apps as well.
<hr /></blockquote>That's a great idea -- that would be very cool.

I'm not sure it would completely solve the current Services problem, as there's only so much room in those toolbars, and some apps (even TextEdit!) just don't have them. But it would sure be useful for those that did.

And another reason for each Services having its own icon...

[ 07-27-2002, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: lookmark ]

BuonRotto · Jul 27, 2002, 12:07 PM

It's coming along pretty nicely. Drag-n-drop functionality is essential os course. I would imagine that service would actually get the grayscale treatment of Apple guidelines for utility applications, though obviously some services already have their own full color icons. How are the sub-menus shown? As pop-ups? Columns? Would you use disclosure triangles ala Get Info in Jaguar?

However, I think if a system-wide contextual menu of services came around, this idea currently shown would go the way of the dodo. Something to keep in mind when you're creating this.

Nice job so far!

GaelDesign · Jul 27, 2002, 05:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lookmark:
Some small adjustments and revisions:
<img src="http://look-designs.com/extras/services_palette/services_panel_texticons_2.gif" alt=" - " />
<hr /></blockquote>Looks great! You have a great idea going there. One suggestion: use columns ala Column View. If someone wants to use the same service over and over again, your concept doesn't save much time over using the current Services menu, because you'd still have to wait for more menus to pop-up. If you used Column View, then you could select, say, "Mail", and then you could use the "Mail Text" service over and over again with only one quick click.

I can make a mockup for you if you like, or you can try it yourself. Let me know.

Keep up the good work!

Regards,

Jared

lookmark · Jul 28, 2002, 10:46 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BuonRotto:
It's coming along pretty nicely. Drag-n-drop functionality is essential os course. I would imagine that service would actually get the grayscale treatment of Apple guidelines for utility applications, though obviously some services already have their own full color icons. How are the sub-menus shown? As pop-ups? Columns? Would you use disclosure triangles ala Get Info in Jaguar?

However, I think if a system-wide contextual menu of services came around, this idea currently shown would go the way of the dodo. Something to keep in mind when you're creating this.

Nice job so far!<hr /></blockquote>Thanks for the feedback.

I was thinking that pop-up menus would appear for sub-menus, either when clicked or drag-and-dropped onto. I did try columns early on, but it seemed like just too much for one little panel, and a bit techy and forbidding.

Disclosure triangles a la Jaguar Get Info might work, though. I'll have to get that a try.

I do, btw, reluctantly agree that adding Services to contextual menus is probably the way Apple will go, as they have those darn limited resources. You got to dream though... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Although Services are poetentially very powerful, Apple doesn't seem to be pushing them very hard -- because they're not very sexy? A bit hard to describe to new users? Waiting until there's API parity? I don't know.

I wonder, though, with an emphasis these days on web services, that with Services for Sherlock 3 and .Mac, they might have their turn in the spotlight once again....

lookmark · Jul 28, 2002, 10:57 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GaelDesign:
Looks great! You have a great idea going there. One suggestion: use columns ala Column View. If someone wants to use the same service over and over again, your concept doesn't save much time over using the current Services menu, because you'd still have to wait for more menus to pop-up. If you used Column View, then you could select, say, "Mail", and then you could use the "Mail Text" service over and over again with only one quick click.

I can make a mockup for you if you like, or you can try it yourself. Let me know.

Keep up the good work!
<hr /></blockquote>I did try Columns early on, but decided against them as they looked a little busy -- for a panel. I was also concerned about the room an extra column took up if one using it. Again, in a panel (imo) things have to be so much tighter, and scrolling kept to a minimum.

If could point me toward apps that use panels w/ columns, or show a mock-up, I'd be interested in seeing it.

That said, yeah... I'm not thrilled about my current solution w/ pop-up submenus. I'm currently considering disclosure arrows. Got to think about this when I have some spare time.

Also, if any icon designers out there have ideas for what a Services icon should look like, for a panel or for application toolbars... I'm all ears.

sambeau · Jul 28, 2002, 02:20 PM

I must admit I prefer the idea of services being a contextual menu option (ie under the right button/ctrl click). They would be even more powerful if they were actaully contextual so you could write a service for a particular context.

I wish someone would write one that would add a drop new empty text file option to the finder..

Oh and connect to server - that would be a good finder one..

I love the idea of bits of the OS being programmable in an iTunes way, too. Inteligent folders, menus etc.. Folders that would back themselves up at a given time or once they had 10 new items in them.

Just point-and-click. Nothing as complex as Applescript.

This would be *very* cool.