[busterhide]

Originally Posted by tie

This wasn't your point at all. Do you concede my point that the ozone hole proves that humans can significantly affect the earth?

You don't think a 60% increase is significant? (Again, the 60% number was from memory, and could be off.) How much would it have to increase due to human activity before it qualified as significant in your informed opinion? A 60% increase in an important greenhouse gas is pretty obviously significant, even to a layman.

How can we do more harm with a misinformed fix than with no fix at all? If the fix is "reduce carbon emissions," then there is no way it can do more harm than good. If the fix is "sequester carbon dioxide deep in the ocean" — or any other mess with the environment in a different way and hope that the effects cancel out — then sure there could be unintended consequences.

Why do you use the word "premature"? When would you be willing to do something to reduce our effects on the environment? I can tell you now that there is no way within the next hundred years we'll be able to predict weather perfectly; even with more computing power to run simulations, it is impossible to obtain initial conditions accurately enough. And yet climate changes are occuring right now, today, not 100 years from now. Do you agree with spliffdaddy that you don't care about the future because you'll be dead, or do you think we should leave the earth for our kids as good or better than we found it?

Oh I do have a bit of experience with the whole Ozone yell. Back in the early 80's I was actually charged with going all over the world implementing a US government program to reduce our use of Halon 1211. It was classified as a CFC contributer to destroying the Ozone layer. Lots of money was made and I had to write loads of reports. We reduced our use of it and at the end of that particular program I had to go to Washington and submit all my reports. Also got quite an education from spending some time with all the scientists involved along with lobbyists and think tank folks. Lots of cocktail parties and lots of grand plans were discussed. A fun time was had by all. This was also during the time when the plan was submitted to change all the car air conditioner.

After I gave testimony in this big room with lots of congressmen. I was released to go back to my regular job. What I got out of this whole deal was a sense that it was all a political game. Programs and more programs and more money. Did all those programs and money do anything? Are the people running program XYZ aware of what the people in program ABC are doing?
Well it looks good, gee we are doing great things here, lets get some more funding so we can do more.

I have looked up last years report on the Ozone (Hole) and I just don't see where we made a difference.

Did you know that when you work for congress all your expenses are paid. And no I was not extravagant.

[Spliffdaddy]

So is it true that R-12 refrigerant was pulled from the market mere moments before DuPont's R-12 patent expired - and replaced by R134A, another DuPont-owned refrigerant with many years of patent protection left?

Maybe you were working for DuPont's best interest and didn't realize it?

[iLikebeer]

"SGR 1806-20 is 50,000 light-years away, but the blast was so huge it temporarily blinded some satellites and briefly altered Earth's upper atmosphere. A similar blast occurring within 10 light-years of our planet would fry Earth's ozone layer. But don't worry – the closest magnetar is 13,000 light-years away."
http://space.com/scienceastronomy/05...r_cracked.html

I'd still like to see some global warming reports that don't say "we don't understand what effect the sun has on global warming, but we're sure humans have contributed...blah, blah, blah."

Global warming as the left uses it is an excuse to be anti-oil industry. Global warming IS happening right now, but Occam's Razor tells me it's just a natural cycle.