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Safari 4 Beta (Page 7)
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CharlesS
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Mar 1, 2009, 05:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Tabs are a way to organise windows into a group. When you resize a tab, you resize a group of windows. There is no need to arbitrate tabs from windows based on such a vague criteria as individual resizing.
No, tabs are pretty clearly on the "view" side of the fence, and have no correlation to windows at all. Tabs organize views into groups. A tab might fill the whole window, or it might only fill part of it. A tab view (the name for a set of tabs) may exist side by side with other views in a window. You could have multiple tab views in a window. You could even have a tab view nested inside another tab. I'm not saying that these are all good ideas, but the point is that a tab view is a view item, more closely related to things like text views and table views and the like than windows. I mean, you could say the same thing about a scroll view - you could claim it's a window that scrolls, since a lot of the time a scroll view does take up the entire content area of a window. But then there's this scroll view I'm typing this message into.......

BTW, this is also how it's implemented. NSTabView is a subclass of NSView, not NSWindow.

Your way of thinking stems from the horrible inconsistent implementation of tabs we have seen so far.
I fail to see what's inconsistent about a tab view. If anything's inconsistent, it's Safari 4's treatment of tabs which is not seen anywhere else on OS X. I also find it amusing that you're all of a sudden proclaiming such things when we've never heard you (or anyone else) complain about how horrible OS X's implementation of tabs is before Safari 4 came out.
( Last edited by CharlesS; Mar 1, 2009 at 06:02 AM. )

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CharlesS
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Mar 1, 2009, 06:04 AM
 
BTW, here's what Apple's interface guidelines have to say about tab views (which are found in the section on View Controls):

http://developer.apple.com/documenta...0359-TPXREF105

Tab Views
A tab view provides a convenient way to present information in a multipane format. The tab control is displayed horizontally centered across the top edge of a content area. Users click a tab to see the content associated with it. For example, QuickTime preferences provides five tabs, each of which displays a group of preference settings, as shown in Figure 15-84.


Figure 15-84 A tab view allows switching among multiple panes in a window



Tab View Usage
Use a tab view when you want to present a small number of different content views in one place within a window. Depending on the size of the window, you can create a tab view that contains between two and about six tabs.

The content area below a tab is called a pane, and each tab is attached to a specific pane. Within a pane, provide controls and information that affect only the objects contained in the pane, not objects in the rest of the window or in other panes.

You can position a tab view in two different ways (see “Tab View Specifications” for examples of these styles):

Extend the side and bottom edges of the tab view to the window edges, so there is no window-body area visible to the sides or below the tab view.
Use this style when you want the contents of the entire window-body area below the tab control to be managed by the tabs.

Inset the tab view in the window, so that a margin of window-body area is visible on all sides of the tab view.
Use this style when you want to be able to provide controls that affect the entire window, not just the current pane. (The global controls should be in the window-body area below the tab view; see “Tab View Specifications” for layout guidelines for this style.)

Note: Multiple rows of tabs are not supported in Mac OS X.
Iif you have too many tabs to fit into a window properly it’s acceptable, although not highly recommended, to use instead a pop-up menu to change the contents of a group box (Figure 15-87 shows how this looks). Another alternative to a tab view is a segmented control, which also provides a way to switch among panes. A segmented control looks similar to a tab view, but it is not attached to the panes (see “Segmented Controls” for more information about segmented controls).

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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 1, 2009, 06:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
No, tabs are pretty clearly on the "view" side of the fence, and have no correlation to windows at all. Tabs organize views into groups. A tab might fill the whole window, or it might only fill part of it. A tab view (the name for a set of tabs) may exist side by side with other views in a window. You could have multiple tab views in a window. You could even have a tab view nested inside another tab. I'm not saying that these are all good ideas, but the point is that a tab view is a view item, more closely related to things like text views and table views and the like than windows.
There's a fundamental difference between "tabs" as they've been in the interface for decades - as sub-divisions of window content, such as in various system preference panes - and tabs, as implemented in a web browser (wait - let me explain).

The lengthy HIG quote you posted refers to the former, NOT the latter.

In a browser window, the paradigm used to be one web page per window, with any content sub-divisions taken care of on the web page itself.

The introduction of tabs into the web browser actually performs two entirely separate functions, depending upon usage: The ability to group various content sub-divisions into a single window (e.g. "News" sites in several tabs, or different forums in several tabs), OR the ability to group various unrelated sited together (that would normally logically be in different windows, as they are separate "documents").

The latter actually makes more sense the way tabs are implemented in Safari 4, as it makes it a window-level grouping.

EITHER WAY, though, tabs as implemented in Safari 3 had nothing to do with the the System "tabs" as described in the HIG, since they neither worked nor looked ANYTHING like the "tabs" interface elements in use across all other applications on the Mac OS.
     
Jim Paradise
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:02 PM
 
I find that cookies usually reappear even though they've been deleted multiple times.

It would be nice to have the option for those of us who like having a blank default page instead of the Top Sites page.
     
TETENAL
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
BTW, this is also how it's implemented. NSTabView is a subclass of NSView, not NSWindow.
You know, that is totally irrelevant for the user's mental model of how things work.

Clearly Safari 4's tabs want to convey that they group a set of windows. My guess is that for new users this is actually quite easy to grasp, while already heavy users of tabbed browsing need time to get used to it.
     
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:10 PM
 
I don't think anyone is arguing that tabs on top makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the way it was implemented, entirely replacing the title bar. They should take a page from Chrome and leave the title bar and tabs on top in at the same time.
     
TETENAL
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jim Paradise View Post
It would be nice to have the option for those of us who like having a blank default page instead of the Top Sites page.
Safari->Preferences->General->New windows open with: Empty Page.
     
Jim Paradise
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Mar 1, 2009, 05:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by TETENAL View Post
Safari->Preferences->General->New windows open with: Empty Page.
See, this is where I smack my forehead in embarrassment. Thanks!

On the other hand, though, cookies still reappear after having been deleted multiple times.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Mar 1, 2009, 07:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
There's a fundamental difference between "tabs" as they've been in the interface for decades - as sub-divisions of window content, such as in various system preference panes - and tabs, as implemented in a web browser (wait - let me explain).

The lengthy HIG quote you posted refers to the former, NOT the latter.

In a browser window, the paradigm used to be one web page per window, with any content sub-divisions taken care of on the web page itself.

The introduction of tabs into the web browser actually performs two entirely separate functions, depending upon usage: The ability to group various content sub-divisions into a single window (e.g. "News" sites in several tabs, or different forums in several tabs), OR the ability to group various unrelated sited together (that would normally logically be in different windows, as they are separate "documents").

The latter actually makes more sense the way tabs are implemented in Safari 4, as it makes it a window-level grouping.

EITHER WAY, though, tabs as implemented in Safari 3 had nothing to do with the the System "tabs" as described in the HIG, since they neither worked nor looked ANYTHING like the "tabs" interface elements in use across all other applications on the Mac OS.
Glad you beat me to the punch. Tabs as implemented in say the Keyboard and Mouse system preferences are vastly different to tabs as represented in a web browser.

That is a subview of a window, and is analogue to the way the Network control panel is using a side bar switching between different panes in the same window.

The tab in a browser is analogue to a window being grouped with other windows.

Two separate models using the same name.

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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 2, 2009, 04:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
That is a subview of a window, and is analogue to the way the Network control panel is using a side bar switching between different panes in the same window.

The tab in a browser is analogue to a window being grouped with other windows.
The biggest problem with designing an interface for browser "tabs" is that they can be BOTH.

Having a window "MacNN forums" with tabs for the individual fora is arguably a content sub-division, where it would make sense to apply the system UI "tabs" (which of course even Safari 3 did not do).

Having all your browser stuff in a single window with tabs - say, a used-car search, your favorite news site, and the forum front page, all in tabs of the same window - is a grouping of windows, where the new interface makes more sense (even if the implementation needs refining).
     
Big Mac
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Mar 2, 2009, 07:35 AM
 
Yeah, OS X system tabs has nothing to do with cross platform web browser tabs. Same name for two very different software interfaces.

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OreoCookie  (op)
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Mar 2, 2009, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The biggest problem with designing an interface for browser "tabs" is that they can be BOTH.

Having a window "MacNN forums" with tabs for the individual fora is arguably a content sub-division, where it would make sense to apply the system UI "tabs" (which of course even Safari 3 did not do).

Having all your browser stuff in a single window with tabs - say, a used-car search, your favorite news site, and the forum front page, all in tabs of the same window - is a grouping of windows, where the new interface makes more sense (even if the implementation needs refining).
The user can decide which windows to group and which not. If you want to group only MacNN windows (that's the way I usually load the forums), then you can do it. A tabbed browser window is a `pile of windows.' I know that some people will rightfully criticize that you can't Exposé tabs (yet?), for instance, but that's a trade-off most people are willing to make. I remember the pre-tab times with 20 open browser windows, shudder.

Some other apps use tabs, too, although not as prominently. Aperture, for instance, allows you to load different projects in tabs (at least I remember that this was possible, I don't use it).
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Mar 2, 2009, 08:57 AM
 
2 dozen pages open.

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Barely noticeable slowdown. Nice.
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Spheric Harlot
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Mar 2, 2009, 09:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The user can decide which windows to group and which not. If you want to group only MacNN windows (that's the way I usually load the forums), then you can do it. A tabbed browser window is a `pile of windows.'
Historically, yes - since it's a further development of window-based browsing.

Logically, not necessarily. This makes it extremely difficult to design a satisfactory interface. I rather liked Safari 3's Apple-like method of "it's there for you to turn on when you want it but we're not screwing with fundamental window layout".
     
Jasoco
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Mar 2, 2009, 05:59 PM
 
The easiest is to refer to browser "tabs" as "multiple windows crammed in the same space" as opposed to actual "tabs".

I think Apple should get on this "tabbed windows" idea and implement it across the board. It just makes sense. And a hell of a lot more sense than Microsoft's idea of "MDI" windows, which they've been trying to get rid of for years now.

Implementing it at the OS level would mean no (or hardly any) work for the programmer. They'd just have to not use tabs at all and let the OS do the work. Just provide a menu option in the File menu to create a new tab. Or come up with a new paradigm completely. Make all new windows default to a new tab, or a new window, it wouldn't matter. There you go. Two options. "New Window" and "New Window in Current Window" menu options would work as such. And with the ability to separate and join windows into two or one would make management super awesome. Grouping windows together would be easier than cake. And when Exposé is used the grouped window would explode into individual windows. Clicking one would switch to that "tab". And don't forget to put all the different tabs into the menus as seperate items to make it easier to switch to the right one.

It's such a cool idea, it hurts to think it's not real... yet at least. I wonder if Apple even sees the potential yet.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Mar 2, 2009, 07:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jasoco View Post
And when Exposé is used the grouped window would explode into individual windows. Clicking one would switch to that "tab".
Exactly. A system-wide implementation of the Safari 4 tabs would yield tab-Exposé, which is one of the most egregious downsides of tabs as implemented today.

Here's hoping that Safari 4 is just a preview to see how people react, and that a more refined system-wide implementation of tab-grouping of windows is coming in SL. *crosses fingers*

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Jasoco
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Mar 3, 2009, 03:50 PM
 
Yes, Browser tabs inherintly break Exposé. Windows is fixing this by letting you see all the tabs in thumbnails in the new task bar. It's up to Apple to do the same by creating Exposé-aware "Window Tabs". (We're gonna need a new name. Either for tabs that hold window contents, or the older ones that hold just options and stuff. Just to fix the confusion.)

I wish I were a consultant at Apple for this. Let's hope Apple already actually has the idea in mind. It does seem this would be the way they're going. But will we see it in Snow Leopard? Or will it get pushed back to 10.7? It'd be Resolution-independence all over again.
     
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Mar 3, 2009, 03:54 PM
 
The fix seems simple. A checkbox preference for *consider tabs as individual windows* for either Application Windows or All Windows Exposé.
     
Simon
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Mar 3, 2009, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
The fix seems simple. A checkbox preference for *consider tabs as individual windows* for either Application Windows or All Windows Exposé.
Seconded.
     
Jasoco
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Mar 3, 2009, 05:37 PM
 
There you go. It would please everyone. The people who love tabs and want the windows to be "groupable". And the people who want the old style, with every window its own window. Provide an option, either system-wide or per application (I'd want the latter, but with a default for new apps.) and we're perfect.

Of course it only applies to "Document centric" applications. i.e. apps that can have new windows created like Safari (And other browsers), Terminal and Console, as opposed to simple "utility" apps like System Preferences, DVD Player (As well as other video apps since putting multiple videos on top of each other defeats the purpose) and Activity Monitor.

The question would be how to handle hybrid apps, like Mail where you have one main window, but can have multiple windows for both the new mail you are writing, or downloaded mail you can't edit. Would they be groupable? Would new mail be grouped separate from old mail? Or would Mail be one of the unsupported apps?

How about iTunes? Where you can have playlists opened individually. But then what happens when you make the window "miniaturized"?

Another example of Hybrid would be chatting apps. Like iChat and Adium, where you have one single Buddy List then multiple chat windows. Obviously in this case, the Buddy List would not group, but the chats would.


I also propose an advanced grouping feature where you can hold down a modifier key to select multiple windows at once and drag them all out at once or all in at once.

And lastly, the OS should have complete built-in "session storing" for certain apps. What is "session storing"? If you use FireFox you'll notice that FF can save all your opened tabs as well as their complete histories and exact locations when you quit the app. So when you reopen it, they will all be restored. This is a feature I think every Browser should have. And maybe other apropriate apps. If you're gonna spend time groupind windows/documents, the groups should at least be saved for later.


I'm putting too much thought into a feature that's still a pipe dream at this point. If Apple doesn't do it, if only we could get a third party to do it.
     
King Bob On The Cob
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Mar 3, 2009, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jasoco View Post
And lastly, the OS should have complete built-in "session storing" for certain apps. What is "session storing"? If you use FireFox you'll notice that FF can save all your opened tabs as well as their complete histories and exact locations when you quit the app. So when you reopen it, they will all be restored. This is a feature I think every Browser should have. And maybe other apropriate apps. If you're gonna spend time groupind windows/documents, the groups should at least be saved for later.


I'm putting too much thought into a feature that's still a pipe dream at this point. If Apple doesn't do it, if only we could get a third party to do it.
OmniWeb already does those perfectly. I really wish they would have continued innovating on it like they used to. I guess there's not nearly the same money in OmniWeb like there is in OmniFocus and OmniPlan, because Workspaces rule.
     
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Mar 4, 2009, 04:54 PM
 
An excellent article which outlines the positive developments in Safari 4 along with all that is evil and unholy with the "Tabs on Top" implementation.

http://daringfireball.net/2009/03/safari_4_public_beta

OAW
     
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Mar 8, 2009, 11:52 AM
 
I like the new Tabs as a concept, but this needs polishing. The title-bar text is too small, the toolbar is too far from the top, and background tabs should be the same lighter colour as background windows, not darker.

I think this Tabs implementation would work well system-wide. Tabs in Pages or TextEdit would be nice. But the "new tab" button is in the same place as the oval toolbar button.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 8, 2009, 12:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
An excellent article which outlines the positive developments in Safari 4 along with all that is evil and unholy with the "Tabs on Top" implementation.

http://daringfireball.net/2009/03/safari_4_public_beta
I think that's quite excellent.
     
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Mar 8, 2009, 12:30 PM
 
Yeah, the click-thru problem is there, but click-thru has been a bugbear for the Mac since OS X showed up.
     
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Mar 8, 2009, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yeah, the click-thru problem is there, but click-thru has been a bugbear for the Mac since OS X showed up.
Not really. Currently only small portions of the window chrome support clicking in the background. In practice, I've never seen it cause any major problems.
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CharlesS
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Mar 8, 2009, 02:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Yeah, the click-thru problem is there, but click-thru has been a bugbear for the Mac since OS X showed up.
Yeah, but on the same note, I had tons of problems trying to explain to novice users back in the OS 9 days why they had to click on a button twice to activate it, just because the window it was in wasn't in the front at the time. It's apparently a hard concept to grok if you're not a computer person.

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Mar 12, 2009, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob View Post
OmniWeb already does those perfectly. I really wish they would have continued innovating on it like they used to. I guess there's not nearly the same money in OmniWeb like there is in OmniFocus and OmniPlan, because Workspaces rule.
Yes, OW has had this for years. The feature allows for storable sessions and "groupings" of windows.
Doesn't Firefox do this now as well--the session aware stuff.
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Mar 12, 2009, 11:31 PM
 
If Firefox is quit or crashes, when I reopen it, it opens every tab exactly as it was complete with individual histories for each tab.

So yes. It's the most irreplaceable feature for me.
     
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Mar 15, 2009, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Apple just released Safari 4 Beta.
http://www.apple.com/safari/

What's new in Safari 4



Tabs on top


And it passes Acid 3.
WOW! I had NO Idea that Safari had been improved that much. I often use Firefox over Safari because it looks more modern, and has more features. It also has a smoother feel. However, I think I'll download Safari 4 and try it out!
     
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Mar 15, 2009, 10:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by cwkmacuser View Post
I often use Firefox over Safari because it looks more modern, and has more features. It also has a smoother feel.


Firefox…smoother…more modern? *snort*

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Jasoco
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Mar 15, 2009, 10:53 PM
 
FireFox only has one thing over Safari. Add-ons. Everything else? Modern, not really. It's coded badly so as to be easily compiled for all three OS', instead of being specifically coded for OS X. It's not smoother either. I don't know what that means. The interface can look nice if you have a good theme, but it will never feel right.

I would use Safari if I could move all my add-ons from FF over with no problems. But that ain't gonna happen. And since I have too much invested in the ability to make the browser do more with less effort, I have to stick with FF. Even though Safari has the more superior WebKit engine. (I really don't like Gecko. At least not the current FF3.0 Gecko. But the 3.1 Gecko looks a lot closer, but sadly a few of my add-ons don't work with FF3.1 yet so I have to live without the advanced CSS3 shadows and other stuff Safari does.)
     
- - e r i k - -
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Mar 15, 2009, 11:35 PM
 
Out of curiosity, what would these addons be exactly?

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Jasoco
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Mar 15, 2009, 11:57 PM
 
CyberSearch (Turns my Location bar into a super Inquisitor, searches every aspect. History, Bookmarks, Google, everything. It is IRREPLACEABLE and is superior to Safari's new way. Also, since FireFox lets me remove the Google search box, it makes a single text area to sit in my browser window.)

Download Statusbar (Replaces the annoying as hell Download window that gets lost showing all downloads in one place attached to the bottom of the window.)

DownloadHelper (Download FLV files from web videos. Even integrates into YouTube.)

Download Them All (New for me, I use it in threads with lots of images to download them all. As the name says. Also works on linked videos and stuff.)

Google Preview (Simply adds thumbnails to Google results.)

Long URL Please (Replaces TinyURL's with their original URL to prevent phishing and blind linking.)

NoScript (Customizable out the wazoo. I use this in leiu of ad blockers to block stuff piece by piece. And it blocks it by default so I can opt-in if I want. Even temporarily.)

Paste and Go (Copy a link that hasn't been made into a link, just paste it and it opens a tab right to it, works with more than one link too if it's a list.)

Stylish (Custom CSS sheets per site, per page or even style the browser itself since FireFox's XUL GUI is just HTML and CSS. I have sheets for tweaking things, even removing page elements that I don't like. Or empty holes created by blocked ads. Or if a sites text is too small, but only that site, I can simply make only that site have slightly larger text, or change its entire layout if I want.)

Sxipper (IRREPLACEABLE, superior way to store passwords and all other information, even learns on its own. I rarely have to fill a form myself.)

Tab Mix Plus (God dang this is so good. It's not compatible with 3.1 yet though. It provides a plethora of options for Tabs and Windows. I have it set so my browser is FORCED to have a single window. All windows, even external links and allowed popups go into their own tab. I never have to chase my windows all over my screen.)

Tab Sidebar (Use it occasionally. It shows tabs as thumbs, and even updates them in real-time. But it takes too much space and I am too much of a space whore.)

Tab Popup (Shows a preview of the tab when hovered)

Tab Wheel Scroll (Scroll tabs when I scroll my wheel over them. By which it switches tabs, not just scrolls the tab area.)

TXTLinkTab (Select text, right click, open the link in a new tab.)

Those are just the ones that I can't live without. Some might have equivalent features elsewhere, but you can't get ALL of this stuff in one place unless you have FF.

This is out of date as I have since added buttons to the side for DownloadHelper and Download Them All, and have moved the arrows to the left, but this is my top. I am using the Chromeifox theme. If only I could place the tabs in the top area of the window like Safari, I'd save another 26 or so pixels. All my bookmarks are there, except Unsorted which I'm sad to know I can't move into the Bookmarks Bar like I can the Recent ones. Sad.


My status bar has Stylish and No Script in it as well as FoxMarks which I didn't mention and Gmail Notifier since both could be replaced if I had to. As well as ForecastFox which is very nice weather in your browser. I use it instead of a menu bar app like WeatherPop or Meteos since it saves space and clutter and memory.
     
angelmb
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Mar 16, 2009, 05:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jasoco View Post
1.- How do you get the bookmarks on the toolbar?
2.- What theme is that you are using?

Thanks.
     
Jasoco
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Mar 16, 2009, 05:19 AM
 
I mentioned the theme above the image.

And you can move the bookmarks like a toolbar item by "customizing toolbar" and dragging it up there then hiding the Bookmarks bar.
     
angelmb
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Mar 16, 2009, 08:21 AM
 
Oh, I had done a search for Chromeifox and got no results… it was Chromifox
Thanks for the tip about the bookmarks.
     
Salty
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Mar 16, 2009, 01:27 PM
 
Can't stand firefox, always feels so clunky, had to use it for a while when my safari install was buggered up.

Btw combining expose with tabs would be easily done by having you mouse over the window and have the tabs fan out, either like a star burst or you could do em like poker cards. Heck you could even have Expose do the windows and then fan out the tabed ones a half second after. That'd look really cool
     
Jasoco
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Mar 16, 2009, 01:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by angelmb View Post
Oh, I had done a search for Chromeifox and got no results… it was Chromifox
Thanks for the tip about the bookmarks.
Oh, sorry! Typo. Yeah, it's a nice looking theme, but it has quirks. I used to use GrApple Delicious which is a theme to make FireFox look like Safari. But it seems to mess up graphically on my side, so I use Chromifox.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Mar 16, 2009, 07:11 PM
 
Lots of handy little doodads there Jasoco, and I agree that not everything can be done elsewhere. But for me it's a balance of functionality, speed and usability.

Safari 4 is arguably the fastest browser there is. It loads quickly, gets me where I want and does it absurdly fast (if you have a fast connection).

I have Glims that does a lot of what you say. I prefer my search fields to be separate from my locationbar and to not search my history and bookmarks, as the location bar does that anyway.

I have shortcuts set up for the most used search engines (Google Images, Wikpedia, YouTube) and that works well enough for me.

I have QTYouTube bookmarklet that lets me download the original high quality H.264 from YouTube instead of the shitty "have to transcode to play anywhere" FLV files.

My ads are blocked with a HOSTS file, which means I never ever have to mess with adblockers. It's fast and works for any type of ad. I use ClickToFlash to rid Flash permanently, unless I click it or whitelist the site.

1Password is TRULY the multiplatform, browser agnostic solution to store all my passwords, forms and VISA/Banking details. I never have to fill in anything by myself be it on Safari, on the iPhone or even on Firefox. At work or at home. Now that is TRULY irreplaceable. Sxipper isn't even close

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed Google search results now come with previews by default

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Mar 16, 2009, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Oh, and in case you haven't noticed Google search results now come with previews by default
What? I don't get such a thing.
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Jasoco
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Mar 16, 2009, 07:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Lots of handy little doodads there Jasoco, and I agree that not everything can be done elsewhere. But for me it's a balance of functionality, speed and usability.

Safari 4 is arguably the fastest browser there is. It loads quickly, gets me where I want and does it absurdly fast (if you have a fast connection).
It may be faster but it still isn't an option for me, and I'll explain why...

I have Glims that does a lot of what you say. I prefer my search fields to be separate from my locationbar and to not search my history and bookmarks, as the location bar does that anyway.
Deal breaker. No deal if I can't remove one of the boxes and use only the other. Seriously. Deal is broken. I'm living in the 21st century. Where uniformity is king... or something.

I have shortcuts set up for the most used search engines (Google Images, Wikpedia, YouTube) and that works well enough for me.
So do I. I type wiki, or you or another key command before typing my search query and it takes me to a Google search of just that site. It's become first hand for me, and I miss it when on other computers or browsers.

I have QTYouTube bookmarklet that lets me download the original high quality H.264 from YouTube instead of the shitty "have to transcode to play anywhere" FLV files.
DownloadHelper does that too. And gives you options.

My ads are blocked with a HOSTS file, which means I never ever have to mess with adblockers. It's fast and works for any type of ad. I use ClickToFlash to rid Flash permanently, unless I click it or whitelist the site.
I don't have to mess with ad blockers either. No Script has not let me down at all. It blocks it by default unless I approve the site it's on. Then it's always shown. Why should I have to edit a file? That's an extra step! And new ad sites pop up all the time. You can't catch them all unless you block them from the start.

1Password is TRULY the multiplatform, browser agnostic solution to store all my passwords, forms and VISA/Banking details. I never have to fill in anything by myself be it on Safari, on the iPhone or even on Firefox. At work or at home. Now that is TRULY irreplaceable. Sxipper isn't even close
Sxipper does come close. Don't even argue. It does what I want it to. Plus yours costs money. Mine does not, and does all the same stuff though not the extra stuff like iPhone/cell phone apps.

Oh, and in case you haven't noticed Google search results now come with previews by default
It's new. I guess I can remove that add-on then. Thanks for the advice. Edit: I don't see them. Is it an option? My thumbs are gone from Google now. I have to reactivate the add-on because I see no option to enable thumbs anywhere on Google. According to Glims website, Glims is the one adding the thumbnails. It's not an option by Google.

But I'm sticking with FireFox. I'd rather not go through all the trouble that will be required to import my entire history (Which goes back over a year. I keep my ENTIRE HISTORY so I can find ANYTHING I've looked at before without having to search so hard.) and all my other settings into a new system.

Plus, hell, another deal breaker is the fact I can't move my bookmarks into the same area as the Location bar. Broken deal. I'm very picky when it comes to space wasting. Can't hide the search box or put bookmarks up there, sorry. Deal is over. Hell, even INTERNET EXPLORER lets you compress space. Though sadly, every person I've seen with IE has a half a dozen toolbars from third parties, including anti-virus programs, taking up half their window. I don't tollerate that crap. And any toolbar in FireFox gets useful buttons added to the Location toolbar and the third party toolbar hidden away forever. Though right now I'm only using Developer Tools, and that one lets me access all the tools from the context menu anyway so there's no need to ever see the toolbar.

So really, it comes down to not being able to remove what I want, or put what I want elsewhere. Call me when Safari gets those two options, and a smarter location bar that even compares to CyberSearch.
( Last edited by Jasoco; Mar 16, 2009 at 08:04 PM. )
     
- - e r i k - -
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Mar 16, 2009, 08:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
What? I don't get such a thing.
Huh?

This started showing up for me ages ago:



Edit: Oh snap! Turns out that's a feature of Glims. Well, waddayaknow…

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- - e r i k - -
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Mar 16, 2009, 08:38 PM
 
I really don't get your obsession over making every single feature be crammed into the location bar. It's not like horizontal space is at a premium! More features crammed into a space that it's not designed for is BAD UI. While I CAN type in wiki "whatever" I find it much easier to just type in "whatever" and hit shift-enter.

Vertical space with wide monitors however, is at a premium. Apple's new, smarter tabs; separation of download window (after all I don't really need to track my downloads from the browser, they pop up in the dock when finished) ;and ability to remove the status bar does just that: saves vertical space.

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Mar 23, 2009, 10:12 AM
 
After a few weeks of using the beta at work and old Safari at home, I can definitely say the new tabs are terrible.
     
Chuckit
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Mar 23, 2009, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
After a few weeks of using the beta at work and old Safari at home, I can definitely say the new tabs are terrible.
I've been doing the opposite, since I need to be able to get things done at work without constantly cursing at the computer because there are now 13 invisible, background-clickable close boxes on every window.
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Dakar V
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Mar 23, 2009, 01:29 PM
 
I don't need my web browser at work for my actual work. I think I'd freak out trying to use it on my laptop at home.
     
pliny
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Mar 23, 2009, 04:27 PM
 
Speaking of Firefox...does it use the keychain yet? I could never get over how it never used it.
i look in your general direction
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 23, 2009, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by pliny View Post
Speaking of Firefox...does it use the keychain yet? I could never get over how it never used it.
Well, that's because it's excellently cross-platform incompatible.
     
cwkmacuser
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Mar 24, 2009, 07:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jasoco View Post
FireFox only has one thing over Safari. Add-ons. Everything else? Modern, not really. It's coded badly so as to be easily compiled for all three OS', instead of being specifically coded for OS X. It's not smoother either. I don't know what that means. The interface can look nice if you have a good theme, but it will never feel right.

I would use Safari if I could move all my add-ons from FF over with no problems. But that ain't gonna happen. And since I have too much invested in the ability to make the browser do more with less effort, I have to stick with FF. Even though Safari has the more superior WebKit engine. (I really don't like Gecko. At least not the current FF3.0 Gecko. But the 3.1 Gecko looks a lot closer, but sadly a few of my add-ons don't work with FF3.1 yet so I have to live without the advanced CSS3 shadows and other stuff Safari does.)
What's wrong with a browser that works on several platforms? That way, people can use multiple operating systems and run the same web browser. Safari just gives you little messages like "You are not connected to the internet". Firefox gives you troubleshooting options and suggestions. Just to let you know, Safari is no longer a mac-only program. There is a Windows version released, I think it came out in 2008 or 2009.
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