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I'm getting serious about losing weight.
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Feb 25, 2009, 12:27 AM
 
Although I'm sure my present physical state is partly due to blame from the "American diet" mine is compounded by the fact that I'm a gimp (I was born with advanced extensive club feet). As a result I had surgery on my feet when I was 9 months old and had at least one every summer between 2nd and 11th grade, which as a result, I was not the most active person growing up.

I'm 5'5" (165cm) and after working on my diet for the past year, I weigh 215lbs (97.52kilos) and since it is part of the equation, I'll tell you I'm 27.

About 6 months ago I started simply enough with my diet and cut out almost all sugar (especially High fructose corn syrup....I don't care what the commercials say, I believe the stuff is bad news).

I drink water almost exclusively, and although I was never a big junk food eater, I am doing everything I can to avoid it. ideally I'm trying to keep my daily caloric intake around 1500 or less. I now work in a cube, so I don't need massive energy.

More recently, I joined a gym two weeks ago. Because of my foot condition running or doing any cardio that requires standing is out of the question (My knees are pretty bad too which is one of the main reasons I'm trying to loose weight) so biking or "spinning" as I guess they're now calling it, is what I mainly do followed by a weight circuit one of the gyms staff help me with.

I'm burning about 2800 to 3000 calories a week at the gym, with a goal of getting up to 3500 calories a week (which should be taking off roughly 1lb a week). I have a goal to get down to around 165lbs.

If any one has any advice, recommendations, and/or words of encouragement, it'd be appreciated.
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Feb 25, 2009, 12:32 AM
 
You are on the right track. Eat less, move more. Write out your goals and how you're going to get there. Good luck!
     
Jawbone54
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Feb 25, 2009, 01:08 AM
 
I've started losing just by cutting back on soft drinks and exercising more. There is one other thing though: instead of eating until I get full, I have made a habit of STOPPING well before that point. It takes a while, but you start getting used to smaller portions until you're eventually eating half the amount you used to.

Also, don't eat past 8:00 PM or so.
     
sdilley14
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Feb 25, 2009, 01:11 AM
 
I could go on for a long time and go into great depth on this subject. Fitness has been one of my obsessions for quite some time.

My first suggestion is to go to bodybuilding.com. There are a TON of articles that explain different workouts, different diets, how to diet properly, how to portion your macronutrients properly, how to lift properly, how to time your meals for maximum efficiency, etc. I would suggest navigating around the main site first, then go check out the forums. Particularly, I'd suggest checking out the "Nutrition" and "Losing Fat" sections. It is a very large community with a mountain of solid, proven information on how to get in shape the right way.

Check it out, take the time and read the sticky threads in the forums (they're huge threads but have extremely valuable information in them) and if you have any questions just let me know.
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sdilley14
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Feb 25, 2009, 01:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post

Also, don't eat past 8:00 PM or so.
Myth. As long as whatever you are eating fits into your daily caloric allowance (find calculators online, figure out what your BMR is, and subtract 500 calories a day if you're on a cut or add 500 calories if you're bulking), and as long as your macronutrients for the day are in line, you're fine.

I actually consume a casein protein shake right before bed. It's slow absorbing protein (as opposed to whey that is quick absorbing protein) that provides your body with nutrients throughout the night (very important if your lifting and trying to lose weight and maintain lean muscle mass).
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Feb 25, 2009, 01:20 AM
 
Wii Fit

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Jawbone54
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Feb 25, 2009, 02:23 AM
 
I can actually vouch for the whole Weight Watchers thing as well. My wife has been on it for the past six weeks and has dropped 15+ so far.

All you need is a bit of discipline and one of their little calculators for when you grocery shop.

Originally Posted by Mac User #001 View Post
Wii Fit

     
Sealobo
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Feb 25, 2009, 06:21 AM
 
do kick boxing.

and there is no need to avoid sugar 100%. just eat a normal diet, stay from from soft drinks, fries and all those greasy sh!t.

and stop calculating how many calories you're burning and how much you're consuming. those are just useless numbers.

do kick boxing.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 08:36 AM
 
Of course you can't stay away from sugar 100%. The idea is to cut it out of your diet as much as possible (fruit juices, candies, non diet soft drinks, etc.)

Also, I'm not sure what your idea of a "normal" diet is. Of course you don't have to eat tuna and boneless skinless chicken breasts for every single meal, but I got a feeling that people trying to lose weight shouldn't to their "normal" diet.

You don't need to count how many calories you're consuming and how many you burn. I understand that can be very tedious and difficult to keep up with. Its just another part of your total effort in trying to get fit the right way. How can you possibly expect to track your progress and find out which areas need improvement if you don't quantify it in some way? Sure, you don't need to be completely accurate down to the single calorie, but it is important to at least be mindful of where you're at throughout the day so you can continually adjust your diet accordingly.

And to say that those number are "just useless"...haha, well, that's a completely ignorant statement in a discussion about weight loss and fitness. Calories burned > calories consumed = weight loss. Calories consumed > calories burned = weight gain. I'd say they're the most useful numbers in fact.

And yes, sure, do kickboxing.
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Feb 25, 2009, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
I've started losing just by cutting back on soft drinks and exercising more. There is one other thing though: instead of eating until I get full, I have made a habit of STOPPING well before that point. It takes a while, but you start getting used to smaller portions until you're eventually eating half the amount you used to..
That's what I typically do, I've given up all soda, both regular and diet, I typically only eat 1/2 of my meal or when I cook, I cut my portion in half. I try to snack a few times a day with low calorie fare. I also run/work out about 6 days a week

all of this has helped me lose weight and maintain my goal weight, though I've added a few pounds this winter since I cannot get out for long runs but once the warm weather arrives, I should hopefully start banging out 5 and 8 mile runs during lunch hour.
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Feb 25, 2009, 09:47 AM
 
Good stuff [email protected] - just carry on with the determination to do it and it'll happen.

A bit of an accelerator (which some may rail against) is, quite simply, to go veggie. Unless you're going at it with cake and sugar and other crap, it's really very very difficult to keep weight on under a veggie regime.

Can you walk OK? If so, grab a treadmill and use it - no need to run (but you'll have to spend a bit longer on it for the same effect, obviously). A couple of hours of simply walking each day will pull about 7,000 cals a week off.
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Maflynn
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Feb 25, 2009, 09:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
A bit of an accelerator (which some may rail against) is, quite simply, to go veggie. Unless you're going at it with cake and sugar and other crap, it's really very very difficult to keep weight on under a veggie regime.
Agreed, and recommend. While I'm not a vegatarian, I rarely eat meat specifically beef. I find once I avoid burgers (and french fries) and other stuff, my weight started going down pretty quickly. I now avoid meat if I can get a veggie meal.
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Feb 25, 2009, 10:00 AM
 
Adding veggies into the diet is good, but to base your entire diet around veggies isn't a great idea. Veggies make for good complex carbs and fiber, but protein is key in maintaining lean body mass while trying to shed fat. A general rule of thumb for cutting is a 40/40/20 split or 40% of your daily calories should be protein, 40% carbs, and 20% fat (yes, there are good, essential fats). I'd definitely recommend using veggies as one of your primary sources of carbs in addition to whole wheats, pasta, and plain oats.

And yes, walking is a great start. Some people think you need to get on the treadmill and run for hours at a time. That's another huge misconception. Walking 3-4 mph on the treadmill for 30-60 minutes with a slight incline (5-10 incline range) 5-6 days a week will do wonders (and its the method that a lot of fitness professionals use). Just be sure to save the walking for after lifting if you're lifting weights at all. And another tip for using walking to lose weight; Walk in the morning after you wake up on an empty stomach if you can. Your body is depleted of its nutrients at this point and is cutting into its fat stores for energy.
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Feb 25, 2009, 10:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Adding veggies into the diet is good, but to base your entire diet around veggies isn't a great idea. Veggies make for good complex carbs and fiber, but protein is key in maintaining lean body mass while trying to shed fat.
To clarify: Veggie, not vegan. Plenty of grade A protein in milk and eggs.
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Feb 25, 2009, 10:20 AM
 
I get a lot of emails about losing weight. If you want I can forward some to you.

Also, if anyone needs to know more about makking her come hard or getin a larg er pennis. I am your guy.

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Feb 25, 2009, 02:01 PM
 
Cutting carbohydrates out of your diet (like Atkins) is unhealthy. You are essentially starving your body. It is a quick way to lose weight, but not good for you. It will lead to increased risk of heart attack and stroke which could be significant if you're following your diet with moderate to heavy exercise.

I think the most important thing is to just keep on track and make healthy eating and exercise into a habit. Healthy eating means getting appropriate amounts of everything, including carbohydrates.

If you have health insurance, you could go and visit a dietitian. Your dietitian can take a blood test, then set you up with a healthy regiment of food and exercise. That's a dietitian, not a nutritionist. Extremely important distinction. Dietitians are doctors, nutritionists are quacks.
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Feb 25, 2009, 02:34 PM
 
Have you heard of the P90X workout? It is a very rough and rigorous routine but we have a guy at work who has been on that for 2 months and has lost 30 lbs. You have to be strict, get dumbbells and a pull-up bar. I wish you all the luck man. I know losing weight can be tough but don't ever give up or give in. I know there are a lot of fine people on this board who will help you when you need help.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 02:55 PM
 
I've had good success with eating a raw, mostly vegan (will sometimes have an egg), gluten free diet and exercising daily.

Cutting out the processed foods and foods that have had all nutrients removed due to cooking will do wonders for your body.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 04:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Cutting carbohydrates out of your diet (like Atkins) is unhealthy. You are essentially starving your body. It is a quick way to lose weight, but not good for you. It will lead to increased risk of heart attack and stroke which could be significant if you're following your diet with moderate to heavy exercise.

I think the most important thing is to just keep on track and make healthy eating and exercise into a habit. Healthy eating means getting appropriate amounts of everything, including carbohydrates.

If you have health insurance, you could go and visit a dietitian. Your dietitian can take a blood test, then set you up with a healthy regiment of food and exercise. That's a dietitian, not a nutritionist. Extremely important distinction. Dietitians are doctors, nutritionists are quacks.
Of course cutting carbs completely out of your diet is a bad idea. I hope you're not implying that cutting them out totally is what I said. As I stated before, having a 40/40/20 (pro, carb, fat) split with your macronutrients is ideal. Or if you really want to get serious you could carb cycle and do a 60/20/20 split for two or three days then have a carb refeed day. This assures that your body won't adapt to your diet and it will keep your metabolism high.

And as you said, maintaining a diet of healthy, clean foods, working out (weight training and cardio) and having the discipline to stick to it day in and day out for months at a time (with the exception of the occasional cheat meal once every week or two) is the general key to prolonged success. You can just wing it and "eat a "good" diet and work out a couple days a week" and you may eventually reach your goals, or you can get much more strict and specific with both your diet and workout regimen and reach your goals much quicker and more efficiently.

Then again what do I know, I'm a quack and have no experience whatsoever with any of this...
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Feb 25, 2009, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mac User #001 View Post
Wii Fit

Boyfriend and I are starting a Wii Fit regimen ... having someone else there to make me keep it up does wonders. However, it's my personal opinion that the Wii Fit is better for muscle toning and strength building than losing a lot of weight. The aerobic exercises it provides are pretty low-impact, but the strength exercises will f you up if you're a weak pussy like I am - my muscles were dying of OMGDEATH after only four days of one half-hour session per day.

Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Cutting carbohydrates out of your diet (like Atkins) is unhealthy. You are essentially starving your body.
Cutting anything that's a normal nutrient out of your diet is unhealthy, including carbs, sugar, and fat. Eating an excess of one thing in favor of entirely excluding another is also unhealthy. The human body was designed to process a variety of things; it's the sedentary nature of our culture that's made a big difference in obesity rates.

And, as an aside - my ex suffered from frequent knee pain due to a bad tennis injury. He found that ellipticals provided a great workout without causing joint pain, since you're not actually slamming your feet up and down on a hard surface, like you do with a treadmill. I'm much the same way - I get horrendous side cramps from running on treadmills, but I have no issues when using an elliptical instead.
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Feb 25, 2009, 04:42 PM
 
It's about common sense and determination to stick to what makes sense. I lost 50 lbs and have kept it off for years. My strategy was to eliminate all processed foods. Switched to high vegetable content, low glycemic, no added sugars of any kind (yes, HFCS is bad because it's in almost everything). I really love food and still enjoy it, even more than ever now that I have an appreciation for it.

Here's probably the most important advice that I would give that I haven't seen here already. read the ingredients of EVERYTHING. For example, when we make homemade soup, we use broth or stock. 90% of the ones you see in the store have either sugar or trans fats added.

And I'm glad pigeon made the distinction between nutritionists and dietitians. There's a world of difference! If you don't already know Ellie Krieger, go check out her site http://www.elliekrieger.com/
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Feb 25, 2009, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
That's a dietitian, not a nutritionist. Extremely important distinction. Dietitians are doctors, nutritionists are quacks.
Or rather, in the case of my wife, they help save lives in nutritional humanitarian aid - basically the opposite. I've never heard of a nutritionist trying to pass for a dietitian. Then again, she thinks most people here could do well by simply eating...less.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
And, as an aside - my ex suffered from frequent knee pain due to a bad tennis injury. He found that ellipticals provided a great workout without causing joint pain, since you're not actually slamming your feet up and down on a hard surface, like you do with a treadmill. I'm much the same way - I get horrendous side cramps from running on treadmills, but I have no issues when using an elliptical instead.
That's why you walk on 'em rather than run.
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Feb 25, 2009, 06:59 PM
 
Thanks everyone for the great responses.

For those who suggested I try kick boxing, I really hope you were suggesting that tongue-in-cheek.

Being a gimp, after so many surgeries my feet look someone put them in a blender and turned it on: ie: They're covered in scars/large sections of scar tissue. I can barely balance on two feet as it is. Although looking at me walk, you'd never know how much actual effort I have to put into it. So, the idea of me jumping around and hopping on one foot, while swinging the other through the air trying to hit targets in completely laughable!
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Feb 25, 2009, 07:09 PM
 
sorry, didn't realize it's that serious. sorry again.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Of course cutting carbs completely out of your diet is a bad idea. I hope you're not implying that cutting them out totally is what I said.
I was replying to the original poster, [email protected] He said he was going to cut out all sugars completely. I was just explaining that Atkins is a hard on the body.

Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Then again what do I know, I'm a quack and have no experience whatsoever with any of this...
I'm not questioning your experience.

Originally Posted by paul w View Post
Or rather, in the case of my wife, they help save lives in nutritional humanitarian aid - basically the opposite. I've never heard of a nutritionist trying to pass for a dietitian. Then again, she thinks most people here could do well by simply eating...less.
I would guess that since your wife is working through a humanitarian organization, she probably follows federal guidelines or criteria set up by a dietitian. Unless she's giving poor people protein powder and telling them to bulk up, she's not a nutritionist.

I should be a little more specific on what I meant by nutritionists being quacks. The people who peddle protein powders, dietary supplements, multi-vitamins, etc. There have been zero conclusive studies that show that any of these have any measurable affect on the human body. There are many, many stores that sell this crap staffed by people in white lab coats.

Note, daily-multivitamin is not be confused with vitamin supplements for specific cases such as osteoporosis, menopause, child baring, or any other situation with drops in specific nutrients as observed by a doctor.
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Feb 25, 2009, 08:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I would guess that since your wife is working through a humanitarian organization, she probably follows federal guidelines or criteria set up by a dietitian. Unless she's giving poor people protein powder and telling them to bulk up, she's not a nutritionist.
It's not a powder, it's much tastier.

Anyway - here's what we do, and we're healthy and happy: cook your own food. Buy ingredients, and everything. Chances are you'll eat better, and consume less in wasted calories. We make soups, salads, roasts that take the same amount of time as ordering takeout or reheating some prepared meal.
     
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Feb 25, 2009, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post

I should be a little more specific on what I meant by nutritionists being quacks. The people who peddle protein powders, dietary supplements, multi-vitamins, etc. There have been zero conclusive studies that show that any of these have any measurable affect on the human body. There are many, many stores that sell this crap staffed by people in white lab coats.
Very true. You're basically referring to people that work at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc. The majority of those people have limited knowledge of the products they are selling and are grossly uneducated when it comes to proper nutrition. They're paid by commission for the most part and they handle their job accordingly.

However, I disagree when you say that NONE of those products have any benefit. Sure, a LOT of them are garbage, but there are some quality products there too. Protein powders are a staple in any diet for those looking to shed fat and put on muscle mass. Creatine is also a very beneficial, clinically proven supplement to help muscle recovery.

Now all of the fat burners and things like that are another story...
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Feb 25, 2009, 09:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by paul w View Post
It's not a powder, it's much tastier.
I just watched a special on Plumpy'nut. It's extremely useful in getting malnourished children to eat. Generally malnourished children don't want to eat at all, so it's hard for parents to feed them the usual cereals. For some reason the kids don't overt to eating peanut butter, so Plumpy'nut has turned out to be an ideal source of nutrition.
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Feb 25, 2009, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Protein powders are a staple in any diet for those looking to shed fat and put on muscle mass.
Marketing works really well. There has been zero evidence that shows that adding protein powders to a diet actually does anything. Generally people eat enough protein in their diet to meet the requirement for building muscle mass.

Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Creatine is also a very beneficial, clinically proven supplement to help muscle recovery.
Yes, but very few are managed by the FDA. Otherwise they're considered a dietary supplement. The main problem with vitamins and supplements is that people read about the clinical studies regarding the benefits of a particular vitamin or supplement, so they assume that if they consume more it must be better/faster/healthier.

This isn't the PWL, so I'll just leave it at that.
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Feb 25, 2009, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Boyfriend and I are starting a Wii Fit regimen ... having someone else there to make me keep it up does wonders. However, it's my personal opinion that the Wii Fit is better for muscle toning and strength building than losing a lot of weight. The aerobic exercises it provides are pretty low-impact, but the strength exercises will f you up if you're a weak pussy like I am - my muscles were dying of OMGDEATH after only four days of one half-hour session per day.
I have no doubt about that, as many of the activities require real exercising (I got a workout when I tried it too), but suggesting it as a way to lose some serious weight is a bit in the left field.
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Feb 26, 2009, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Myth. As long as whatever you are eating fits into your daily caloric allowance (find calculators online, figure out what your BMR is, and subtract 500 calories a day if you're on a cut or add 500 calories if you're bulking), and as long as your macronutrients for the day are in line, you're fine.

I actually consume a casein protein shake right before bed. It's slow absorbing protein (as opposed to whey that is quick absorbing protein) that provides your body with nutrients throughout the night (very important if your lifting and trying to lose weight and maintain lean muscle mass).
I beg to differ - note that you are consuming protein not a loaf of bread or a bowl of pasta, I assure you that consuming something "heavy" before bed screws with your digestion cycles and will ultimately cause weight gain.
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Feb 26, 2009, 03:51 AM
 
No, it doesn't.

Lets say my BMR (basal metabolic rate) is 3000 calories. That means that my body would burn 3,000 calories if I were to stay in bed all day. This means I have a break even, maintenance level of 3,000 calories a day. So if I consume 3,000 calories, my body mass is going to stay the same. Now lets say I take in 2,000 calories for the day and 1,000 calories are from protein, 500 calories from carbs, and 500 calories from fat. If I consume another 2-3-400 calories of carbs, even before bed, its fine. You body doesn't have a clock and doesn't care what time of the day you take in calories. Its constantly burning them. It's not like your metabolism shuts down in your sleep and everything you eat before you go to bed magically turns into fat.

Seriously people, do some research before chiming in about this stuff. There's nothing more irritating than people who think they know what they're talking about throwing out a bunch of myths and fallacies on a subject they have no true experience with or haven't researched. (I'm not trying to attack you personally indigo)

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/index.html

Go there, navigate around, read, understand the science and logic, learn from professionals and people with experience.
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smacintush
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Feb 26, 2009, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Generally people eat enough protein in their diet to meet the requirement for building muscle mass.
For someone with a lot of muscle who lifting heavy weights to try to maintain or increase that muscle, no they can't.

It's damn difficult even for a beginner. Protein is very filling and stays with you a long time.

You obviously either have never done any bodybuilding, or have tried and failed to get anywhere. If you lift heavy weights with the kind of protein or caloric intake that "generally people" eat, you will lose muscle.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Cutting carbohydrates out of your diet (like Atkins) is unhealthy. You are essentially starving your body. It is a quick way to lose weight, but not good for you. It will lead to increased risk of heart attack and stroke which could be significant if you're following your diet with moderate to heavy exercise.
He said he was cutting almost all sugar, not all carbohydrate.

I didn't take it as all sugar including fruits and such. I thought he meant products with refined sugar and corn syrup like soda, candy etc.
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
Very true. You're basically referring to people that work at GNC, Vitamin Shoppe, etc. The majority of those people have limited knowledge of the products they are selling and are grossly uneducated when it comes to proper nutrition. They're paid by commission for the most part and they handle their job accordingly.

However, I disagree when you say that NONE of those products have any benefit. Sure, a LOT of them are garbage, but there are some quality products there too. Protein powders are a staple in any diet for those looking to shed fat and put on muscle mass. Creatine is also a very beneficial, clinically proven supplement to help muscle recovery.

Now all of the fat burners and things like that are another story...
Nearly ALL of the kinds of supplements you will find at "health food" or "nutrition" stores like GNC is pure crap.

Even plain old vitamin supplements have been shown time and time again to be nearly worthless (with very few minor exceptions). All of those herbal products, they range from useless garbage to even possibly dangerous. For the very best of these there is weak evidence of slight benefit.

Nevertheless, even if you use the best of these products, the cost-to-benefit ratio is horrible.

Incidentally, I don't put protein powders into this category, it's basically a food product IMO. Though, I think that they are way overused and are seen as a shortcut, which they are not.
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Feb 26, 2009, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
He said he was cutting almost all sugar, not all carbohydrate.

I didn't take it as all sugar including fruits and such. I thought he meant products with refined sugar and corn syrup like soda, candy etc.
Smacintush is correct. Navel oranges are a favorite of mine, and I'm not cutting those out of my diet.

As for breads/pasta/ect I haven't cut them out either, but I am only eating REAL wheat bread, and whole wheat pasta so my carb intake is not simply empty calories, and there is a nutritional benefit in consuming said foods.

I'm also a fan of the 'vegetable' pastas that have carrots/spinach/other veggies mixed in
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sdilley14
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Feb 27, 2009, 04:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Nearly ALL of the kinds of supplements you will find at "health food" or "nutrition" stores like GNC is pure crap.

Even plain old vitamin supplements have been shown time and time again to be nearly worthless (with very few minor exceptions). All of those herbal products, they range from useless garbage to even possibly dangerous. For the very best of these there is weak evidence of slight benefit.

Nevertheless, even if you use the best of these products, the cost-to-benefit ratio is horrible.

Incidentally, I don't put protein powders into this category, it's basically a food product IMO. Though, I think that they are way overused and are seen as a shortcut, which they are not.
Well put.
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sdilley14
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Feb 27, 2009, 04:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
For someone with a lot of muscle who lifting heavy weights to try to maintain or increase that muscle, no they can't.

It's damn difficult even for a beginner. Protein is very filling and stays with you a long time.

You obviously either have never done any bodybuilding, or have tried and failed to get anywhere. If you lift heavy weights with the kind of protein or caloric intake that "generally people" eat, you will lose muscle.
Also well put.
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