[subego]

The following links are NSFW. I put them behind a spoiler tag, so you can't there from here accidentally.

 

Home page: Changing female body perception through art | The Great Wall of Vagina
Directory of images of each panel: The Great Wall of Vagina Panels | The Great Wall of Vagina

I'm curious about people's take on the thesis of the project, and the way it chooses to express said thesis.

[Waragainstsleep]

If he truly means what he says about the motivations and goals of the project then I think its a great idea. On the other hand if he is just looking for an excuse to touch a lot of vaginas then it obviously worked very well for him but the project loses all nobility.

I do tend to be a bit skeptical of modern art(ists). After all, who wouldn't like to sell a palette of bricks or a dirty old mattress for hundreds of thousands of pounds?

Did the original thread on this get completely deleted just because it had the word vagina in it?

[ghporter]

The original thread was deleted because it was difficult to envision it staying confined to even "Not Safe For Work" tagged discussions.

There's a lot of positive about this exhibition. Unfortunately, the people most qualified to discuss it make up a tiny fraction of our membership - women. Self image is difficult enough for women in our society without the complication of having men's magazine photographs make women even more insecure about their least understood features (women as a group tend to have far less real understanding of their "feminine anatomy" than men do, for a number of reasons).

I think that this discussion can go well if we all remember that it's about women's self image and how popular culture tends to undermine it. This exhibition is an extreme but important example of how we as a society make it hard for women to value themselves. Let's discuss that, shall we?

[Eug]

All I thought about when I saw this was is that the plaster must have gotten everywhere.

[Thorzdad]

Originally Posted by Eug 

All I thought about when I saw this was is that the plaster must have gotten everywhere.

I suspect the casting was done first using fast-curing latex, rather than doing it directly with plaster. You'd then use the latex form as a mold for a more easily controlled plaster pour.

Plaster takes awhile to set and can get quite hot against the skin as it does so. Using latex first also has the advantage of it being quite flexible and, thus, far easier to remove from...delicate...parts.

[Waragainstsleep]

If you check the site there is a gallery showing exactly how the castings were done. You can even purchase the kit and have a go yourself.

http://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/casting-process

http://www.greatwallofvagina.co.uk/store-overview

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

If he truly means what he says about the motivations and goals of the project then I think its a great idea. On the other hand if he is just looking for an excuse to touch a lot of vaginas then it obviously worked very well for him but the project loses all nobility.

It loses nobility, but not necessarily value. The issue he's supposedly addressing exists, and the installation, umm... exposes it as fallacious thinking.

It seems to me that's separate from whether his intent was to expose that, or expose something else (if you know what I mean and I think you do).

[subego]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

There's a lot of positive about this exhibition. Unfortunately, the people most qualified to discuss it make up a tiny fraction of our membership - women.

Tis sad but true.

I was originally going to ask "what do you guys (and andi) think about this?"

[Waragainstsleep]

I thought there was something familiar about this and it turns out he was featured in a documentary I saw 4 years ago. The clip is posted on his site.
Watching some of the other clips it seems that helping with female body image issues wasn't necessarily the reason behind starting the project but rather something the artist discovered along the way that helped to focus the project. I guess that makes it pretty genuine. I certainly agree it has genuine value regardless of motivations.

The artist gets it pretty much spot on in one of the clips when he says that women can be very self conscious about it, but the vast majority of men are so happy and grateful to get near one that they don't care what it looks like.

[subego]

I also think there's some irony in the fact males, as the primary consumers of pornography, are often more aware of the variety than women.

Edit: just noticed GHP made a similar argument which I missed on the first read-through.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Thorzdad 

Plaster takes awhile to set and can get quite hot

Owie.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by subego 

I also think there's some irony in the fact males, as the primary consumers of pornography, are often more aware of the variety than women.

Actually this is entirely logical. In situations where straight men are naked together there are unspoken rules about checking out each other's junk. Assuming the same is true of women, the closest you ever get to genitals is when you're performing oral sex on them so it stands to reason that men will see more vaginas up close than women and the reverse would be true for women seeing penises. There are obvious exceptions for homosexuals, gynaecologists and people who don't like to perform oral sex but otherwise this 'rule' should hold up pretty well.

Pornography isn't going to give anyone a fair representation of the real variety that exists. Male porn stars are much more likely to be selected because they have large penises or to have surgery in order to obtain a large one. Women who are very self conscious about their vaginas are going to be less likely to go into porn and more likely to have labiaplasty or other cosmetic surgery to alter the appearance of their genitalia simply because its going to appear in close up in HD.

[subego]

Well, to your first point, the female junk isn't really positioned front and center the way dong is. Along those lines, the wang is a little hard not to notice, even if you are actively trying to avoid it, especially with geezers who feel compelled to dry their balls for 10 minutes. As your second point relates to the sausage, while the variety in length isn't fairly represented, pretty much every other varietal aspect is. It is likewise considered common knowledge the size is skewed. While any individual male may feel inadequate in relation to a porn star, they're feeling inadequate to something which is defined as non-average.

When it comes to the women-folk and pornography, I think your reasoning ignores the point which is being made by the display: there is no genuine platonic ideal for the lady garden. A woman who considers herself inadequate is comparing herself to a standard which doesn't exist.

What follows out of this would be a lack of correlation between women who feel inadequate about how their hoo-haa looks, and how their hoo-haa actually looks.

With my own experience of pornography, nowadays, even the disproportionate representation of schwance length isn't what it used to be. When it comes to how the lily is arranged, I've never seen a lack of variety in this regard.

[Shaddim]

It seems some 90+% are shaved smooth. I have to say it's a modern trend that I'm not too terribly fond of. Personally, I've always liked a little foliage in the garden.

[Waragainstsleep]

Any standard certainly isn't as simple or obvious as bigger = better but I think there are certain guidelines that can be inferred from mainstream porn. Symmetry is the most obvious, probably followed by 'neatness' for lack of a better term. Neatness is more subjective but I'd bet that most women would say smaller labia are preferable. The standard doesn't really exist because outside of porn directors most men don't care.
They certainly don't all look the same but the variety is less than you see on the artist's wall.

[Waragainstsleep]

For a sequel, I think the artist should do another wall but this time mould them in something soft like latex and make holes in them. Then behind each one should be a pair of electrodes that deliver a small but noticeable electric shock to anyone who pokes a finger in.

It wouldn't have any kind of social message, but it would be hilarious.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It seems some 90+% are shaved smooth. I have to say it's a modern trend that I'm not too terribly fond of. Personally, I've always liked a little foliage in the garden.

I did notice societally we reached the "point of no return" a couple of years ago and bare floor became the standard.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Any standard certainly isn't as simple or obvious as bigger = better but I think there are certain guidelines that can be inferred from mainstream porn. Symmetry is the most obvious, probably followed by 'neatness' for lack of a better term. Neatness is more subjective but I'd bet that most women would say smaller labia are preferable. The standard doesn't really exist because outside of porn directors most men don't care.
They certainly don't all look the same but the variety is less than you see on the artist's wall.

It sounds like you're focusing on hardcore, video pornography. When it comes to lighter, photographic fare you really do get all kinds.

Let me put it this way. I'm wired for long-form monogamy, and find strip clubs icky, so I can probably count on one hand the number I've seen up-close and personal, yet I've seen all that variety somewhere.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

For a sequel, I think the artist should do another wall but this time mould them in something soft like latex and make holes in them. Then behind each one should be a pair of electrodes that deliver a small but noticeable electric shock to anyone who pokes a finger in.

It wouldn't have any kind of social message, but it would be hilarious.

It reminds me a bit of those rough bronze statues of nude women where the public isn't blocked from touching. The boobs are always rubbed shiny and smooth by gropers.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It seems some 90+% are shaved smooth. I have to say it's a modern trend that I'm not too terribly fond of. Personally, I've always liked a little foliage in the garden.

I thought the reason for that was practical: to make these pictures, you need to make a mold. If there is a lot of hair, you cannot make a mold. And you will »wax« the private parts of your models in the process.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I thought the reason for that was practical: to make these pictures, you need to make a mold. If there is a lot of hair, you cannot make a mold. And you will »wax« the private parts of your models in the process.

I don't think so. You just need to coat the hair with a release agent. You need to do that with the skin too, but it's a less intensive application.

Think about Hollywood facial prosthetics. They successfully do facial molds of men with beards and mustaches.

[subego]

One niche of pornography is groups of pictures of (generally amateur) women in clothes and then not in clothes.

A particular site, while named a touch more vulgarly, has the theme of "guess the color of pubic hair".

You may see where I'm going with this. While I'm sure the site still gets a lot of traffic, one can't help but notice that if you're actually interested in keeping score, you just guess "none" and win every time.

[ghporter]

Women are, in general, fairly uninformed about their own structures. As noted, it's not like they can simply glance down and see what's there the way men can. Add to that the way media portray women and the bandwagon effect of such portrayals (spindly-thin with goth-inspired eye makeup and "what happened to her" hair at major fashion shows, which seems to become the de facto standard for fashion shows), and it's like our society has trained women to judge themselves based on pictures in magazines. Modern "men's magazines" tend to show a lot more than they did even a few years ago, and the trend there is less hair, so more structures are visible... Women now have more details to obsess about, and these they have no control over - without surgery. There are so-called "reconstructive gynecologists" making the proverbial mint from trimming, tucking and otherwise altering what women started out with because these women are unhappy with it. Because...I dunno, because magazines tell them their anatomy isn't like everyone else's?

I got a great lesson in variety in Air Force Basic Training. We guys went through a production line of uniform issuing, and after about 40 minutes we had everything we needed, off the shelf, and it pretty much fit fine (except those damned chucka boots...). The women had half a day at this project, and much of it was in alterations and obtaining the right undergarments, just so most things would fit mostly OK. I do not see that women as a group have actually appreciated this fact - they are more variable in size and proportion, even as "healthy young women," than men are.

Finally, during her training as a forensic nurse examiner, my wife (no naive little flower) learned two major points: in collecting evidence from an assault victim, she needed to learn A LOT about female anatomy, including the broad range of normal variation; and that almost every woman is woefully ignorant of her own structures, to the extent that the catch-all term "down there" is just about all they really know.

If over half the human population is so uninformed about their most intimate anatomy, how in the world can they have any hope of understanding that normal variation of the entire body is normal and actually to be celebrated, rather than to be ashamed of or altered by a surgeon?

[subego]

Bill Hicks had a routine about how ****ed up it is that most women haven't grabbed a mirror and checked themselves out at some point.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I don't think so. You just need to coat the hair with a release agent. You need to do that with the skin too, but it's a less intensive application.

I'm sure you can do that for short hair (think of eyebrows), but do you get a good mold if you coat long, curly pubic hair? I somehow think that it's easier to do that kind of thing if your model is shaved clean.

[subego]

It depends on how you define a "good mold".

You have to really grease up the hair and then get it matted down. This will make a good mold, but it's obviously not a mold of natural looking hair.

But yes, it's easier not to have to worry about it.

[subego]

Just asked a friend if she had checked herself out, and she said she was forced to by one of her gynecologists who was horrified she hadn't.

[el chupacabra]

Just a typical amateur artist in a world overflowing with desperate artists; who saw an opportunity to make a name for himself with a sexual piece. While lacking in any real creativity, it is unique I guess... And like with anything sexual it will shock or at the least turn heads... and hence he was successful; but that doesn't make it art. Art is something when I see it I might think "hmm that would look nice in my living room, or the entrance." Nobody would put this in their house except for maybe those bisexual types who pierce everything and tattooed up the ying yang; the kind where everything with them is about making some kind of statement. This is garbage; food for young easily shocked hipster types who eventually will grow up and see how boring or useless (for whatever it thinks its trying to accomplish ) it truly is.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Women are, in general, fairly uninformed about their own structures. As noted, it's not like they can simply glance down and see what's there the way men can.

So? I don't see how this is a big problem. Both men and women are, in general 'very' uninformed about 'all' the structures of their body. There are areas to pay more important attention to then the just the sexual organs that the sheeple of society fixate on.

Add to that the way media portray women and the bandwagon effect of such portrayals (spindly-thin with goth-inspired eye makeup and "what happened to her" hair at major fashion shows, which seems to become the de facto standard for fashion shows), and it's like our society has trained women to judge themselves based on pictures in magazines.

Good points but this "artist's" art isn't trying to make a statement about women's fashion, makeup etc.. Not that I see women stressing over fashion and makeup. Thats something women do for fun, not because they feel pressured by magazines and fashion shows. The art is subjected on something that very few women stress over in any way; the point was to shock and get people around the world talking just like we are here.

Women now have more details to obsess about, and these they have no control over - without surgery. There are so-called "reconstructive gynecologists" making the proverbial mint from trimming, tucking and otherwise altering what women started out with because these women are unhappy with it. Because...I dunno, because magazines tell them their anatomy isn't like everyone else's?

This isn't a rampant problem in society; the number of women "obsessing" over their vagina enough to get surgery there, is quite rare, and more a case of craziness rather than what a magazine told them, the same women are probably obsessing over their facial features and getting cosmetic surgery there as well.

I got a great lesson in variety in Air Force Basic Training. We guys went through a production line of uniform issuing, and after about 40 minutes we had everything we needed, off the shelf, and it pretty much fit fine (except those damned chucka boots...). The women had half a day at this project, and much of it was in alterations and obtaining the right undergarments, just so most things would fit mostly OK. I do not see that women as a group have actually appreciated this fact - they are more variable in size and proportion, even as "healthy young women," than men are.

This has been the case for millenia and women have dealt with it just fine. Again no problem, we don't need this "art" to cure women from a problem that doesn't exist.

If over half the human population is so uninformed about their most intimate anatomy, how in the world can they have any hope of understanding that normal variation of the entire body is normal and actually to be celebrated, rather than to be ashamed of or altered by a surgeon?

Cosmetic surgery is far more prevalent in other areas of the body than the vulva. People making fun of a girl's vulva are rare, no? I never even heard of it. If "we" as a society want to celebrate variations then society should stop making fun of the guys and gals with uni-brows and perhaps put them on magazine covers and in movies that aren't comical. Maybe we could start putting little people on magazine covers as well; ones that dont contain any content or mention of little people articles...

I think most people aren't fully satisfied with their appearance. That doesn't mean it a significant problem. Look how many people out of desperation to stand out in the world are modifying their body to be as weird and abnormal as possible. You've got the people with forked snake tongues, facial tattoos, genital tattoos, ear rings that stretch the ear out, filed down teeth.

subego Bill Hicks had a routine about how ****ed up it is that most women haven't grabbed a mirror and checked themselves out at some point.

That deosn't mean it's actually ****ed up. It's out of sight out of mind. How many times do people grab a mirror and look at their *** ****. They probably should, never know when you might get skin cancer down there.

[subego]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Not that I see women stressing over fashion and makeup.

Can't for the life of me imagine why. You seem so sensitive to the issue. If I were a woman, you'd be the first on my list of people to talk to about it.

[Waragainstsleep]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Just a typical amateur artist in a world overflowing with desperate artists; who saw an opportunity to make a name for himself with a sexual piece. While lacking in any real creativity, it is unique I guess... And like with anything sexual it will shock or at the least turn heads... and hence he was successful; but that doesn't make it art. Art is something when I see it I might think "hmm that would look nice in my living room, or the entrance." Nobody would put this in their house except for maybe those bisexual types who pierce everything and tattooed up the ying yang; the kind where everything with them is about making some kind of statement. This is garbage; food for young easily shocked hipster types who eventually will grow up and see how boring or useless (for whatever it thinks its trying to accomplish ) it truly is.

Normally I'm probably even more skeptical than you when it comes to modern art but I think you have it wrong this time. The artist had been doing body sculptures and casts for some time. Its possible some of his earlier work was exactly the sort of crap you describe and this one may have started out that way too but he genuinely seems to have realised along the way that women were looking at the casts of other women and realising things about themselves. He saw some helpful potential in his work and carried on rather than abandoning it in favour of something more controversial and useless.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

So? I don't see how this is a big problem. Both men and women are, in general 'very' uninformed about 'all' the structures of their body. There are areas to pay more important attention to then the just the sexual organs that the sheeple of society fixate on.

With most other structures, there is no social taboo on getting someone else's opinion or making a comparison. If I said "Dude I think I have weird hands, lemme see yours for a minute" that would be a whole lot less odd and awkward than "So can I check out your schlong?"

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Good points but this "artist's" art isn't trying to make a statement about women's fashion, makeup etc.. Not that I see women stressing over fashion and makeup. Thats something women do for fun, not because they feel pressured by magazines and fashion shows. The art is subjected on something that very few women stress over in any way; the point was to shock and get people around the world talking just like we are here.

This isn't a rampant problem in society; the number of women "obsessing" over their vagina enough to get surgery there, is quite rare, and more a case of craziness rather than what a magazine told them, the same women are probably obsessing over their facial features and getting cosmetic surgery there as well.
This has been the case for millenia and women have dealt with it just fine. Again no problem, we don't need this "art" to cure women from a problem that doesn't exist.

I think you'd be surprised. Firstly just because women enjoy some aspects of fashion doesn't mean they don't feel pressure other times. I doubt they'd tell you about it if they did. Secondly, its not purely a matter of cosmetic concern over their genitals. Women obsess over theirs as much as men do they just don't tell men about it so often. There are many women who think that even a perfectly normal looking vulva is unpleasant to look at and many who just worry that theirs is in some way abnormal and as mentioned, they don't tend to watch so much porn or ask their friends if they can stick their head between their legs and take a good look. They don't tend to have much personal experience to make comparisons.
It may not appear to be a huge problem, but it is a growing one. Labiaplasty is certainly getting more popular. This artwork genuinely seems to have helped a number of women already, watch the documentary clips on the site. Its a simple solution to a problem that does exist.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

That deosn't mean it's actually ****ed up. It's out of sight out of mind. How many times do people grab a mirror and look at their *** ****. They probably should, never know when you might get skin cancer down there.

Perhaps that is ****ed up too. I wouldn't expect you to agree with Bill Hicks on much though, if anything. ****ed up is probably overstating it a bit. It is a bit silly though. "Out of sight, out of mind" is a ridiculous philosophy though. Most of the time, not just here.

[Spheric Harlot]

^

[el chupacabra]

I knew I'd get the hate being the only anti-provacative-modern-art guy.

Originally Posted by subego 

Can't for the life of me imagine why. You seem so sensitive to the issue. If I were a woman, you'd be the first on my list of people to talk to about it.

I'm not sensitive to any issue I can think of off the top of my head, although it may seem that way since tone can't be read on the internet. This is just me being irritated by this piece and people's reaction to it; it's just so chiche, the sex piece that isn't erotic, but deep, like it's something profound and the people who don't get it are just not open minded enough. I will get more on topic to your original question of why I don't think this piece accomplishes anything, further down.

Waragainstsleep
Its possible some of his earlier work was exactly the sort of crap you describe and this one may have started out that way too but he genuinely seems to have realised along the way that women were looking at the casts of other women and realising things about themselves. He saw some helpful potential in his work and carried on rather than abandoning it in favour of something more controversial and useless.

His original intent as an artist is what I'm most concerned with. What was his original reason for why he started it? That's generally a huge part of the story that makes something a piece of real art. Perhaps I missed something when skimming though the "about" section of his page. The fact that he says he's "trying to help women understand that vulva are different and trying to cut the trend of labial surgeries" sounds like something he made up on the fly to noblize he work. I congratulate him though for realizing that many of his subjects are insecure about something on their body. Perhaps he is a god of the obvious.

Women also tend to be insecure about their weight and breasts. Much more than their labia I would imagine since they are pretty open about this insecurity to most guy/girl friends. You can't hide breast size and shape like you can vulva. It's pretty easy for women to compare their breasts with other women and realize that "there is lots of variety". Seeing this variety and understanding that they are normal doesn't seem to be very comforting to them though. If her breast are small there too small and she wants bigger ones, if they're average they're too average, if they're big they're too big.

from the artist site
"This is about grabbing the attention, using humour and spectacle, and then educating people about what normal women really look like. Described as “the Vagina Monologues of sculpture” this piece is intended to change the lives of women, forever."

Perhaps if it was a wall of breasts the ridiculousness of this logic would be more apparent. People would scratch their heads and say "well, we knew what normal breasts look like, we can see them anywhere, and seeing what everyone else's looks like hasn't helped women from being insecure about themselves. it has only made it worse by making them want to look like somebody else." This art isn't going to make women think their genitals are beautiful; and it certainly isn't going to change the world. If he was truly noble there are some major world issues he could have done art on that really would have helped changed the world. It's just.. taboo and sex sells better.

Women obsess over theirs as much as men do they just don't tell men about it so often.

I didnt know men obsess over their genitals.

There are many women who think that even a perfectly normal looking vulva is unpleasant to look at,

I don't think my penis is pleasant to look at, in fact I don't think anyone's is pleasant to look at. And the vulva, especially in its most natural unmaintained form is about the same. Perhaps that's why people cover these things up world wide; even if just a fig leaf. Does that expose a societal problem that needs to be addressed? Do I need to learn that it's beautiful, with an art piece?

and as mentioned, they don't tend to watch so much porn or ask their friends if they can stick their head between their legs and take a good look. They don't tend to have much personal experience to make comparisons.

I have an article I'll post below that sort of disagrees. One of the primary ways women decide they are abnormal and want surgery is when they have checked out other women in porn magazines or at the gym. The cosmetic surgery industry is also marketing to them. Maybe it would make more sense for government regulations to tell big medical to stop telling women they're ugly. But it will be a cold day in hell before government ever tells big business, especially big medical, what to do.

More Women Seek Vaginal Plastic Surgery | Womens eNews

This article mostly agrees with what ya'll are saying about women insecurity being a huge problem etc; but what I want to point out about it is the reasons it claims women are getting it done. When doctors were interviewed about the reasons women gave, it was that MEN (different boyfriends/ husbands) had directly made comments about their "loose lips". And that's not even including the passive jokes about "loose lips" men make all the time.

The artist gets it pretty much spot on in one of the clips when he says that women can be very self conscious about it, but the vast majority of men are so happy and grateful to get near one that they don't care what it looks like.

I pulled this quote from your earlier post because the article addresses something here. It seems not all man are happy just to get near one.

"....the bulk of the women getting this surgery are ultimately being pressured by men who want them to conform to a idea of beauty most often seen in the porn industry. "

"The most common reason we hear is that they have had a negative comment made by a male sexual partner. Women are made to feel that they are not perfect the way they are and often it's the partner that sets this off," Loftus said.

Matlock says "They don't want sagging or loose labia. I can't tell you how many pages and pages of pornographic material woman have brought into me saying 'I want to look like this.'"

"Ever since I had the surgery, I feel young and free and prettier for my boyfriend," Crystal said.

"I've had women who come in and say to me, 'He's small can you tighten me up'" said Matlock

"One time he had a few beers and told me that because I had all our kids and was looser now he didn't want me as a woman anymore," Vasquez said. "He did say he was sorry later on but I knew he was telling the truth."
Vasquez had the surgery and she noted her marriage is back on track and her sex life is good again. "He's become my sweetheart again," she said. "He bought me a house and he wants me all the time."
Then she paused. "But there are times I still can't forgive him for how he made me feel," she said. "Sometimes I get so mad, so hurt. I mean I had the kids, he should have understood."

It may not appear to be a huge problem, but it is a growing one. Labiaplasty is certainly getting more popular.

I don't see a problem if a women wants to get the surgery I guess. There's only 1,030 out of 870,000 cosmetic surgeries/yr in the US according to the last statistic. Thats only 0.1% of all the cosmetic surgeries. That's 0.003% of the population that's worried enough to get surgery over the course of an entire 10 years, assuming the number has drastically gone up over the past 6 years. I think if the artist was genuine about solving a significant problem he would be trying to create a work that would drive women away from facial surgery; something that usually doesn't work out well. I'm more scared of the world filling up with Chers and MJs. How Many Women Are Getting Labiaplasties?

If it is a problem it starts with the men. No art piece has any chance of fixing her insecurity if even a few guys have made comments to her about her appearance. The only women who this has claimed to help are the one's who's insecurities were all in their head to begin with. It is what men think of women and say to them that will ultimately shape their self image; and no matter how confident and logical she is, she is going to be hurt by what men say about her appearance and do anything to fix it.

ghporter
I think that this discussion can go well if we all remember that it's about women's self image and how popular culture tends to undermine it. This exhibition is an extreme but important example of how we as a society make it hard for women to value themselves. Let's discuss that, shall we?

I guess my whole point is I don't see how this exhibition is an example of what you are saying. It's true popular culture does undermine women's self image but just because an artist says his work addresses that doesn't make it true; there are more productive ways. To me this is clearly about using sex/taboo for him to get attention.

subego
When it comes to the women-folk and pornography, I think your reasoning ignores the point which is being made by the display: there is no genuine platonic ideal for the lady garden. A woman who considers herself inadequate is comparing herself to a standard which doesn't exist.

This isn't true. The standard is to look youthful. Women are fine with "variety" as long as it looks "youthful". In the old days men most likely stopped having sex with the old wives and chased young mistresses and hookers. Now days they have surgery to make them young again... just a thought.

"...Doctors say these women request the procedure because they are afraid of having "old looking" vaginas."
Los Angeles gynecologist Dr. David Matlock, who says he performs more vaginal cosmetic surgery than anyone else in the country, claims women are having labiaplasties and other forms of vaginal cosmetic surgery because "longer, lose hanging inner lips is a sign of aging and women don't want to look old there, either."

[olePigeon]

I say good on 'em for the exhibit. It's just the human body, and people shouldn't be afraid to be intimately knowledgable about it. At the school for which I work we have a lot of immigrant students from around Europe and Asia. I was working on a laptop when it just so happens that the teacher was handing out permissions slips for the students to watch a film that had two scenes with *gasp* breasts in it (the movie was Excalibur.)

One of the students was from France, and she was genuinely confused and asked why they had to get the paper signed to watch the film. The teacher said, "Well, because it has nudity in it." The other kids giggled but she didn't. She raised her hand and asked, again, genuinely confused, "I don't understand." The teacher then said again, "We can't watch movies without parent permission if it has nudity in it."

She laughed, then said somewhat confused, "But it's just a body! Who cares?" The teacher responded, "Well, we do. It's not appropriate." The other kids were giggling because they associated it with pornography, smut, etc. because that's what they're told; not because it's what people sometimes do when they love each other. For some reason that talk waits until they've probably already learned about it on their own anyway.

I had to agree with the student. It's just a body. It's a shame that Americans in general are so ashamed and embarrassed of the human body.

[Big Mac]

American culture has a lot of residual puritanical and Victorian insecurity/shame over the human body. A certain level of modesty is proper and functional in civil society, but the American default position took things too far. On the other hand, at the very same time while there's shame over the body, the popular culture is heavily sexualized. Promiscuity is normalized and even exemplary, but there's a moral panic upon seeing Janet Jackson's tit pasty. It's schizophrenic, unhealthy and certainly contributes to a myriad of sociological and psychological ills.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

American culture has a lot of residual puritanical and Victorian insecurity/shame over the human body. A certain level of modesty is proper and functional in civil society, but the American default position took things too far. On the other hand, at the very same time while there's shame over the body, the popular culture is heavily sexualized. Promiscuity is normalized and even exemplary, but there's a moral panic upon seeing Janet Jackson's tit pasty. It's schizophrenic, unhealthy and certainly contributes to a myriad of sociological and psychological ills.

I think you hit the nail on the head on every point here. I do think our society does need some desensitizing on nudity but it happens that our society (the US) has taken the 'erotic', porn rout to get there. Not that I think this art is pornographic. It's the kind of thing that if the artist didn't explain it to people ( they usually don't) nobody would know what it is or what its purpose was, and just think "weird". Thats part of the many things that make it trash.

One time when I visited Germany I was in a hotel near the beach. On the beach it was common to see bare breasted women. You could tell some of the American tourists because they couldn't control their hard ons at times. Women were even making snapping comments at them out of anger. The place had unisex bathroom + showers, in there, there were children/boys/girls, men, women. There were no stalls, no dividers, everyone just showered in visibility of each other. The toilets were lined up but again had no stalls, no dividers between them. Men and women could be shatting at the same time while looking right at each other if they wanted. This can explain some of Europe's desensitized culture relating to nudity; but I don't know how prevalent this is throughout all of Europe... These Germans were able to turn in on and off at will based on appropriateness. They definitely don't need a permission slip to see breasts in a movie. None of this means they're a bunch of perverts; and they still wear their clothes most the time... because nudity isn't always appropriate. Even by their standards this art should be trash. It's not like it's Renaissance art or anything (and even that, Europeans painted out much of the nudity). Americans seem to be trying to move in this direction culturally, but seem to be lost as to how to do it, often losing site of whats appropriate and not. So far it seems the vulgar erotic trend is favoring.

[Big Mac]

Total agreement in turn, el chup. Interesting anecdote on Germany. I wanted to touch on that aspect because I've read a bit about European attitudes in contradistinction to ours, so I'm glad you brought up. Haven't been to Europe myself, yet. I reason that a lot of criminal sexual disorders seen in the US are likely spawned from the weird sexually repressed yet hyper-sexual dualism of the US. And I actually heard that the UK is transforming to be more like US and less like the rest of Europe in this area, unfortunately.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Art is something when I see it I might think "hmm that would look nice in my living room, or the entrance."

Art does not have to be beautiful, nice and calming. Art can be disturbing, distressing and discomforting.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Total agreement in turn, el chup. Interesting anecdote on Germany. I wanted to touch on that aspect because I've read a bit about European attitudes in contradistinction to ours, so I'm glad you brought up. Haven't been to Europe myself, yet. I reason that a lot of criminal sexual disorders seen in the US are likely spawned from the weird sexually repressed yet hyper-sexual dualism of the US. And I actually heard that the UK is transforming to be more like US and less like the rest of Europe in this area, unfortunately.

Another example is saunas: it is explicitly forbidden to wear something in saunas while I have heard that in the US, you're supposed to wear something (never been to a sauna in the US, so I don't have first-hand experience). I know all of my good friends and siblings naked. After you get used to it, a sauna (or nude beach) is not a place you associate with something sexual since nudity is not necessarily something sexual. Even if someone you find attractive enters (happens for both sexes, by the way), the experience is rather similar to what happens on the street or in the super market (where you'd find the same person also attractive, there is little difference that (s)he is nude in one situation and dressed in another).

[subego]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I say good on 'em for the exhibit. It's just the human body, and people shouldn't be afraid to be intimately knowledgable about it. At the school for which I work we have a lot of immigrant students from around Europe and Asia. I was working on a laptop when it just so happens that the teacher was handing out permissions slips for the students to watch a film that had two scenes with *gasp* breasts in it (the movie was Excalibur.)

One of the students was from France, and she was genuinely confused and asked why they had to get the paper signed to watch the film. The teacher said, "Well, because it has nudity in it." The other kids giggled but she didn't. She raised her hand and asked, again, genuinely confused, "I don't understand." The teacher then said again, "We can't watch movies without parent permission if it has nudity in it."

She laughed, then said somewhat confused, "But it's just a body! Who cares?" The teacher responded, "Well, we do. It's not appropriate." The other kids were giggling because they associated it with pornography, smut, etc. because that's what they're told; not because it's what people sometimes do when they love each other. For some reason that talk waits until they've probably already learned about it on their own anyway.

I had to agree with the student. It's just a body. It's a shame that Americans in general are so ashamed and embarrassed of the human body.

[Raises hand]

Teacher, why are you making us watch such a horribly flawed movie?

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Another example is saunas: it is explicitly forbidden to wear something in saunas while I have heard that in the US, you're supposed to wear something (never been to a sauna in the US, so I don't have first-hand experience).

In the US this is personal choice. There may be a sign stating what to wear in the sauna though. Most people seem to wear just a towel. Some places people would be uncomfortable with naked people in there others, nude would be the norm.

[subego]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

His original intent as an artist is what I'm most concerned with. What was his original reason for why he started it? That's generally a huge part of the story that makes something a piece of real art.

This makes absolutely no sense. Something can't be "real" art unless the artist shares with you why they made a particular piece?

Even your previous (exceedingly narrow) definition of "would I like to hang this" isn't consistent with this new definition.

[subego]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

I knew I'd get the hate being the only anti-provacative-modern-art guy.

Honestly, this is due to your tone rather than your opinions.

Specifically, the tone of "if you don't agree with my opinion on these subjective issues, you're just another hipster idiot. Grow up."

To put it another way, you're getting "hate", for coming into a thread and being hateful towards the people participating in it. Like begets like.

[subego]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

This isn't true. The standard is to look youthful. Women are fine with "variety" as long as it looks "youthful". In the old days men most likely stopped having sex with the old wives and chased young mistresses and hookers. Now days they have surgery to make them young again... just a thought.

"...Doctors say these women request the procedure because they are afraid of having "old looking" vaginas."
Los Angeles gynecologist Dr. David Matlock, who says he performs more vaginal cosmetic surgery than anyone else in the country, claims women are having labiaplasties and other forms of vaginal cosmetic surgery because "longer, lose hanging inner lips is a sign of aging and women don't want to look old there, either."

Hmm... I'm not so sure you can take the opinion of the small subset of women who feel compelled to get aggressive cosmetic surgery, and extrapolate everyone has the same views.

The complaints I've heard personally are about size and symmetry, age doesn't enter into it. I'm also dubious about this claim as to what an "old" labia looks like compared to a "young" labia (assuming we're talking about adults). I have the Internet, so I've seen plenty of both. There isn't this big difference which the women who get plastic surgery seem to imagine.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Another example is saunas: it is explicitly forbidden to wear something in saunas while I have heard that in the US, you're supposed to wear something...

I'd say the general rule is you wear a bathing suit in a mixed sauna, whereas a sauna attached to a locker room is more individual taste.

Honestly, while I'd rather be naked, explicitly forbidding me from being otherwise seems... unnecessary.

[Spheric Harlot]

Any discussion about art is incomplete without Zimphire.

I present to you the legendary Sixteenth Chapel thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...xerox-of-stat/

[Big Mac]

Is there a particular post I should look at? I think I missed that thread.

[Spheric Harlot]

The whole thread is evolving awesome and one of the most epic in the history of this board (the only real equivalents being the "DBGFHRGL" and aberdeen/Cody Dawg's Total Disintegration threads).

It really starts to roll once Mastrap enters and points out that Kevin/Zimphire has no idea what he's talking about, which he then goes and proves way beyond any reasonable expectations.

(but the true awesome begins on page 2, when somebody comments on Kevin's reference to the "16th chapel", and he starts spinning faster than a turboprop.)

[subego]

It's a fine illustration of how things go awry when you invest too much in being right.

[subego]

What I really like about the 16th Chapel is it implies 15 other chapels.

What happened to them? Were they destroyed like Babylons one through four?