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Free will (Page 2)
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Peder Rice
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Feb 7, 2007, 02:28 AM
 
Physics proves determinism. Chemistry is based upon physics. Humans are complex chemical reactions, which, by the way, still adhere to the laws of physics. Free will, therefore, is an illusion.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Feb 7, 2007, 03:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Physics proves determinism. Chemistry is based upon physics. Humans are complex chemical reactions, which, by the way, still adhere to the laws of physics. Free will, therefore, is an illusion.
"A stone cannot fly, mother cannot fly, ergo mother is a stone." - 'Erasmus Montanus', Ludvig Holberg 1723

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Feb 7, 2007, 04:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
One can avoid the constraints of a freewill problem by recognizing the self intact within this experience of learning. There is an " I " who learns, regardless of whether or not that " I " has power/control. The experience of learning "happens," reinforcing the concept of a distinct and unique selfhood.

So I guess my answer is that learning expands and deepens identity, and without identity the concept of freewill is irrelevant.
This discussion of free will is irrelevant because nothing can be done about it. If we truly have no free will then what is the point in discussing it? It can't be fixed or worked around. If we do indeed have free will then great! Still nothing can be done about it and, this is where I ACTUALLY AGREE with Oreo-kooky, we cannot ascertain any difference anyway.

The concept of "I", a sense of our identity, is a social institution with no physical reality. What we refer to as "I" is simply our symbol of ourselves. Just as the word "water" symbolizes a certain liquid without actually being that liquid. This false sense of identity is precisely what creates our frustration, anxiety and suffering.

Furthermore it gives us this false sense of separation from each other and the world around us. It makes us feel as if we are a separate ego walking around in a bag of skin, not really a part of the world but living ON it. As if we were PLACED here.

Why deliberately feed and reinforce such a thing? What does it DO for you? I would say that WITH this sense of identity that free will is irrelevant because what good is free will when you are a slave to an illusion? The free will would only serve to strengthen the illusion.
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Gamoe
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Feb 7, 2007, 05:25 AM
 
Nobody can sensibly deny that our choices affect the outcomes. It is merely the source and nature of those choices which are in question. Are our choices determined and dictated solely by genetics, environment and a collection of other factors, or is there an innate freedom undetermined by such factors behind them?

That said, I will add to the general sentiment others have already expressed here in that the answer to this question is pointless. We will continue to make our choices, regardless of our beliefs and the truth (whatever that ultimately is).

Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Physics proves determinism. Chemistry is based upon physics. Humans are complex chemical reactions, which, by the way, still adhere to the laws of physics. Free will, therefore, is an illusion.
All sciences are based on observable patterns in the physical world. But free will probably can't be summed up in a pattern and does come from the physical world at all.

Furthermore, your definition of "human" is rather limited. I believe you are confusing physical effects for their more profound and elusive causes.

Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
The concept of "I", a sense of our identity, is a social institution with no physical reality... [snip]
Seems you have a Buddhist view on this. However, in Buddhism you also have a choice (of whether to do good or not, whether to accept truth or not), therefore it would seem to support free will on some level.

I would also add that while the truth behind free will may elude us, we can still properly utilize and apply the concept of free will within our understanding and experiences. At least it is a useful paradigm and it helps us cope with our existence.

However, people can and do choose, and we can change at any moment we so choose, regardless of what that choice is dependent on. Therefore, though it's a good philosophical debate, it is not a good debate for avoiding responsibility.

As Wolfen expressed, what good is free will, existent or not, if it is not utilized? I also see learning as a way towards fulfillment and goodness and it seems the only sensible thing to do if you exists anyway. And then maybe one day you can come to a deeper personal understanding of free will.
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 7, 2007, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Physics proves determinism. Chemistry is based upon physics. Humans are complex chemical reactions, which, by the way, still adhere to the laws of physics. Free will, therefore, is an illusion.
So you're only saying that because of complex chemical reactions happening in your head, and I'm only disagreeing with you because of complex chemical reactions in my head? And neither of use have any choice in the matter?

That makes sense.
     
wolfen
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Feb 7, 2007, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
The concept of "I", a sense of our identity, is a social institution with no physical reality. What we refer to as "I" is simply our symbol of ourselves. Just as the word "water" symbolizes a certain liquid without actually being that liquid. This false sense of identity is precisely what creates our frustration, anxiety and suffering.
The rest of what you said is mostly a rephrasing much of what I said, and I respect your perspective. As for this quote above...

You will have difficulty supporting the "I" as a purely social construct. Society's recognition/discovery and label/abuse of the thing does not erase its experiential value. But the Buddhist dogma is what it is. I can't convince a Catholic there's no hell, an atheist that God exists free of human definition, or a Buddhist that there's value in selfhood. So I won't try. I'm very appreciative to Buddhism for all it has done for me. But after examining it up close I recognized there is pathology in turning my eye from the place where "my" experience sits.

As for symbolism -- it's all anyone ever has in the use of language. Experiences *are* with or without accurate symbolism to communicate them. To say this experience of self is false simply because I can't get at it with language is pathogenic.
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Timo
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Feb 7, 2007, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It's simple.
You cannot distinguish free choice and the illusion of free choice, so the point is moot.
THis is true in shorthand, but unpacking it is more interesting.

The theories of choice and "free will" that I've read suggest that our perceptions of what is possible in this world is a two part mechanism: first, an internalized "code" or durable set of habits, and second, the rules and possibilities embedded in our specific, social environments (e.g., your neighborhood, but more importantly your school or profession or work). Within the limits of this interaction we certainly have choice, but it is folly to pretend that we could easily ignore our internalized dispositions.

What's interesting about this model is how it suggests "success" as a person who's internal code is basically in sync with the politics and dynamics of the external field that he or she is in. The analogy used is a soccer match, where really good players are not "experts" in the rules of soccer, but rather have internalized the possibilities of what can happen in soccer, and more importantly, how to score (or defend effectively), such that they always seem to be at the right place at the right time. Good players have "a feel for the game." Do they "chose" this? Well, sort of. Choice and free will here becomes somewhat besides the point.

We are all free to chose e.g. nilhilism, but for whatever reason most of us chose to play the game. To my mind, the question of free will is kind of academic -- more interesting is the question of whether and how much you can stretch your internalized limits, and how it is possible to transfer successfully from one field to a (presumably better) one.
     
wolfen
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Feb 7, 2007, 12:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Timo View Post
To my mind, the question of free will is kind of academic -- more interesting is the question of whether and how much you can stretch your internalized limits, and how it is possible to transfer successfully from one field to a (presumably better) one.
I agree. If I understand you correctly, I think this is another way to describe some of the elements of learning.
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quattrokid73
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Feb 7, 2007, 12:28 PM
 
free will exists, but it often doesn't seem like this because of our relationships with things and people. we often choose not to do things we want in order to gain something later or avoid confrontation, and a multitude of other circumstances. law doesn't remove free will. you still have the chance to do whatever you please, but the others around you will probably arrest you and throw you in jail under certain circumstances. we all give up a little freedom to live in a livable society.

predictable? often. that doesn't change the your ability to do what you want. maybe someone that experienced X things will statistically NOT do Y things...thats their choice unless the even t itself did some sort of damage psychologically, mentally, physically....(the two former are also really physical in a way)
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Peder Rice
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Feb 7, 2007, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So you're only saying that because of complex chemical reactions happening in your head, and I'm only disagreeing with you because of complex chemical reactions in my head? And neither of use have any choice in the matter?
Yes. But you're looking at it the wrong way.

Let's say that humans are able to create an artificial intelligence that converges in capability with that of a human. In breaking down the robot, we would find a set of instructions for each action, and that all operations break down into fundamentally small units, most likely 1s and 0s, and the robot would have to conform to what its logic dictates.

Humans are the exact same thing. When we type, electricity is sent to the brain, which parses the information and makes an appropriate judgment. It's extremely complex, but it's only an abstraction of many smaller, simpler operations.
     
Peder Rice
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Feb 7, 2007, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
"A stone cannot fly, mother cannot fly, ergo mother is a stone." - 'Erasmus Montanus', Ludvig Holberg 1723
Funny. But my assumption isn't flawed. If we break down our body into smaller parts, we will find that they are the same elements as we find anywhere in the physical world, and they react accord to the laws of physics. Just because we have many parts, does not mean that there's suddenly some leap that must be made:

1. Fundamental Elements (atoms, their interactions)
2. Magic!!!!
3. Human

// Edit: Don't mean to rag on anyone specific with this post, just sayin'...
( Last edited by Peder Rice; Feb 7, 2007 at 01:55 PM. Reason: I'm going to Disney World!)
     
mac-at-kearsarge
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Feb 7, 2007, 03:01 PM
 
Have you guys not learned anything from the great teachers: Chapman, Cleese, Idle, Gilliam, Jones, and Palin, along with their coleague, Mr. Adams

Answers to everything in life has been answered by these men, all you have to to is sit back and enjoy. But in case you've forgotten (or been lazy), here a quick review (Preview for the lazy blokes):

1. Free will exist, we just choose to ignore it. (HGTTG)

2. Religion was a bad idea. (HGTTG, Meaning of life, Life of Brian, Holy Grail)

3. We as a planet need to get our heads out our rears, and realize we're here on this planet by fortunate circumstance, which in comparison to the whole universe, is nothing more then an insignifigant speck of dust. (HGTTG, Meaning of life)

4. Idiots will believe anything you tell them (Meaning of Life, Life of Brian)

5. Fish are highly intelligent creatures who talk and have philisophical debates (Meaning of Life, HGTTG)

6. Marine mammels are also of the same intellgence (One could conclude from eating intelligent fish) (HGTTG)

7. Relaxe and let life take care of itself (Meaning of life, HGTTG)

8. Christianity is total and complete BULLPLOP, created a long time ago by people who were starving, dehydrated, uneducated , bored and a little too friendly with the hooka (Life of Brian, Meaning of life, Holy Grail, HGTTG)

9. If God exist, (S)He has one very twisted sense of humor (However I have to say, aside from #8, I tend to follow Mewes and Smith with their interpretation in Dogma)

And if none of the above make you feel better or satisfied, just remember:

10. 42, ie: there aren't any answers to these questions, so eat a waifer thin mint, because your going to die a bloody mess anyway.
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wolfen
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Feb 7, 2007, 03:05 PM
 
Peder, the misleading angle of what you're proposing is our ignorance of subatomic particles. That their motions determine everything else is inevitable! The question is what determines THEIR motion? At some point it becomes a chicken/egg/heisenberg doohicky that you can't get around. I think that's the nature of the freewill discussion.
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Feb 7, 2007, 03:08 PM
 
Like I said, don't forget the uncertainty principle.
     
Peder Rice
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Feb 7, 2007, 03:21 PM
 
wolfen, I think it ridiculous to believe that subatomic particles have any substantial impact on anything, given that time and again, atoms behave like atoms. They don't just randomly grow unendingly pushing everything out of their way, and they don't sometimes have bad days. They are predictable, and they could not be if at the subatomic level suddenly determinism and cause-and-effect fails.
     
wolfen
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Feb 7, 2007, 04:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
wolfen, I think it ridiculous to believe that subatomic particles have any substantial impact on anything, given that time and again, atoms behave like atoms. They don't just randomly grow unendingly pushing everything out of their way, and they don't sometimes have bad days. They are predictable, and they could not be if at the subatomic level suddenly determinism and cause-and-effect fails.
Wait wait wait.

You're saying atomic physics rules over us. You are simultaneously saying that we don't have to know what the rules are for subatomic physics. After all, they must be governed by laws of cause and effect because atoms are.

It reminds me of the old woman who told the physicists that a huge turtle held the earth on its back. They asked "What's the turtle standing on?" and she said "Very clever! But it's obvous that it's turtles all the way down." Your reasoning is similar regarding subatomic motion.

So I will ask you the obvious question -- all the way down to where? What is the CAUSE for Sub Atomic EFFECT. That is the point of the discussion. Simply describing a new layer of cause and effect does not describe the cause for that layer's effect.

Even more simply: you're telling us the cue ball hit the 8 ball -- but we're all asking you who's holding the cue stick.
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smacintush
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Feb 7, 2007, 05:23 PM
 
Your flaw is assuming that someone must be holding a cue stick at all. Why must you assume that? This is highly limited Newtonian thinking in when modern physics shows us that the balls don't necessarily need a cue to knock them around…(to stick with your billiards analogy)
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wolfen
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Feb 7, 2007, 05:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Your flaw is assuming that someone must be holding a cue stick at all. Why must you assume that? This is highly limited Newtonian thinking in when modern physics shows us that the balls don't necessarily need a cue to knock them around…(to stick with your billiards analogy)
I don't have an opinion on determinism -- Peder does. If you're going to say there's such a thing as determinism, and then say there's no determinER or determinANT, then really you're just saying you believe in chaos theory. And that's fine to say some random variables create determinism. Sure. Great. But stopping there is arbitrary. At that point it's just convenience that prevents a person from acknowledging that there's SO VERY LITTLE that we know about subatomic particles. I mean, you really haven't answered anything at all. Just pushed the question farther upstream, is all.
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shifuimam
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Feb 7, 2007, 06:01 PM
 
Interesting discussion.

Although good ol' Cleese promotes the bad idea-ness of religion, the concept of free will is the biggest dividing factor that splits modern christianity in half. You have those who believe in it, and those who don't - and they all believe in God.

There's some pretty compelling evidence in the Bible (if you believe the Bible and believe it's always right) that free will does, in fact, not exist. I've always had a hard time understanding why the Christian proponents of free will can really believe in it.

Consider this: if God exists, and God is all-knowing, and God is not bound by linear time, then what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen are all known to God all the time. If God already knows what is going to happen, then it has, more or less, already happened, thereby eliminating the concept of free will. While you may think you have the free will to make your choices, if God does indeed exist and what those who believe in Him believe about Him and His character, then free will isn't an option. God already knows what's going to happen. He knew Hitler was going to launch a genocide against the Jews before Hitler was even born.

It's a difficult thing for some people to get their minds around - and even more difficult for Christians to come to terms with.

I dunno. It makes sense to me. So, no. I don't believe in free will. But I also believe in God, so that bends my thinking just a tad.
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lpkmckenna
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Feb 8, 2007, 12:35 PM
 
There are those who think that life
Has nothing left to chance
With a host of holy horrors
To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
The stars arent aligned ---
Or the gods are malign
Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them ---
They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You cant pray for a place
In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt
Thats far too fleet...
     
Dakar²
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Feb 8, 2007, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Snippedy-doo
I read that, but I hear this...

Darkness falls across the land
The midnite hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood
To terrorize yawls neighbourhood
And whosoever shall be found
Without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of hell
And rot inside a corpses shell
The foulest stench is in the air
The funk of forty thousand years
And grizzy ghouls from every tomb
Are closing in to seal your doom
And though you fight to stay alive
Your body starts to shiver
For no mere mortal can resist
The evil of the thriller
     
smacintush
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Feb 9, 2007, 10:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by wolfen View Post
I don't have an opinion on determinism -- Peder does. If you're going to say there's such a thing as determinism, and then say there's no determinER or determinANT, then really you're just saying you believe in chaos theory. And that's fine to say some random variables create determinism. Sure. Great. But stopping there is arbitrary. At that point it's just convenience that prevents a person from acknowledging that there's SO VERY LITTLE that we know about subatomic particles. I mean, you really haven't answered anything at all. Just pushed the question farther upstream, is all.
Sorry. No, I wasn't trying to say that and I wasn't trying to answer anything either.

I was just trying to further the discussion. I definitely don't believe in determinism. The deterministic view of the universe is just as much of a myth as some "God" creating man out of figures of clay.
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Chuckit
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Feb 9, 2007, 11:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Interesting discussion.

Although good ol' Cleese promotes the bad idea-ness of religion, the concept of free will is the biggest dividing factor that splits modern christianity in half. You have those who believe in it, and those who don't - and they all believe in God.

There's some pretty compelling evidence in the Bible (if you believe the Bible and believe it's always right) that free will does, in fact, not exist. I've always had a hard time understanding why the Christian proponents of free will can really believe in it.
That's true, but there are also many that make absolutely no sense if we assume that humans are not responsible for their own lives.
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quattrokid73
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Feb 9, 2007, 08:02 PM
 
man, ive never seen more people get tied up in doctrine so much.

disregard doctrine. it ruins your argument for athiesm.
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Peder Rice
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Feb 9, 2007, 10:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I definitely don't believe in determinism. The deterministic view of the universe is just as much of a myth as some "God" creating man out of figures of clay.
Myth? In what possible way? Determinism is nothing more than stating that there are no random events in life, that no event is without cause.

If there is a god, then the god was created by either physical events or by another god.
If there is no god, then matter and/or energy always were/was.
     
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Feb 9, 2007, 11:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
If there is a god, then the god was created by either physical events or by another god.
If there is no god, then matter and/or energy always were/was.
The word "God", to me, means eternal and infinite.

And matter/energy was created by God.

Yours is exactly backwards from my viewpoint/understanding.
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 12:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
And matter/energy was created by God.
Not according to Genesis Or maybe you just forgot...huh Railroader?

Wow! this is way off topic.
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 12:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Not according to Genesis Or maybe you just forgot...huh Railroader?

Wow! this is way off topic.
Huh, Atomic Rooster?

Genesis 1
The Creation

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

3Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
1. God is eternal, he created everything. What I said earlier.

2. Formed Earth. what I said earlier.

3. Done.

What whacked version/bible are you using? Huh, Atomic rooster?
     
Atomic Rooster
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Feb 10, 2007, 12:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
What whacked version/bible are you using? Huh, Atomic rooster?
The same whacky one you read.

But you're still wrong.
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
The same whacky one you read.

But you're still wrong.
Keep believing that if it helps you sleep.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Feb 10, 2007, 02:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
What whacked version/bible are you using? Huh, Atomic rooster?
The whacked version I'm using is The New Jewish Publication Society version. Jewish Study Bible english translation.

"When God began to create heaven and earth, the earth being unformed and void with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the waters...God said let there be light and there was light".

You must be reading the one, what?, from 600 years ago?...translated into archaic english with all the thee's and thow's?

zzzzZZzz
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 04:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
As far as I can tell it all comes down to Quantum Theory. If the Heisenberg uncertainty principle holds, then we have free will. If it doesn't, then our lives are pre-determined.
Whether the universe is deterministic or random doesn't relate to free will. How could nature flipping coins give you free will back? True randomness is no better than pure determinism.

The universe's wave function evolves deterministically (except possibly around black holes, and there might be other relativity-related problems, too). But it doesn't matter. Free will has nothing to do with atoms, any more than courage, loyalty or intelligence do. These are all concepts that only emerge at higher levels.

It is obvious that we have free will. I can make decisions, and I can change decisions. Why am I making these decisions? Well, I can try to trace a line of causation. There will be a fuzzy area in the middle, and then I'll get down to the atomic level where things change according to fixed physical laws. Even if there weren't any fuzzy area -- even if we understood perfectly the working of the brain, nonetheless there would be free will. The concept would just slowly weaken as you traced the line of causation downward. That shouldn't be surprising, since none of these concepts are black and white.

This issue should be separated from the question of how much my decisions are made by genetics or by my environment or by factors which aren't me -- the idealized mental me which sits above this all. There is no idealization, it is just a simplified construct -- and a better, more critical understanding of how you make your decisions can help you improve your decision-making. You can learn these factors and partially account for them.
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Feb 10, 2007, 11:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
The whacked version I'm using is The New Jewish Publication Society version. Jewish Study Bible english translation.

"When God began to create heaven and earth, the earth being unformed and void with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the waters...God said let there be light and there was light".
Nice to see you admit you were wrong by posting that version which agrees 100% with my version. It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. Good job.
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
You must be reading the one, what?, from 600 years ago?...translated into archaic english with all the thee's and thow's?

zzzzZZzz
New American standard Version. You can learn about it here: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions...ionInfo&vid=49

More accurate than ever:

Recent research on the oldest and best Greek manuscripts of the New Testament has been reviewed, and some passages have been updated for even greater fidelity to the original manuscripts.

Parallel passages have been compared and reviewed.

Verbs that have a wide range of meaning have been retranslated in some passages to better account for their use in the context.

...

The NASB update is not a change-for-the-sake-of-change translation. The original NASB stands the test of time, and change has been kept to a minimum in recognition of the standard that has been set by the New American Standard Bible.

The NASB update continues the NASB's tradition of literal translation of the original Greek and Hebrew without compromise. Changes in the text have been kept within the strict parameters set forth by the Lockman Foundation's Fourfold Aim.
     
Timo
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Feb 10, 2007, 11:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Myth? In what possible way? Determinism is nothing more than stating that there are no random events in life, that no event is without cause.
Well, that's not what you've been arguing. You've been saying that because every cause has an effect, there is no free will, which is quite a jump.

Sure, no event is without cause. But not every event has meaning. Free will isn't about subverting physics, it is about meaning.
     
smacintush
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Feb 10, 2007, 11:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Myth? In what possible way?
In this way:
that there are no random events in life, that no event is without cause.
The very notion that there are separate events at all is false.

When you call something a "thing" or an "event" it is merely a way of thinking about it, of "measuring" it in much the same way as measuring a circle by reducing it to a series of points. A circle, in reality, is NOT a series of points but it is useful to measure it that way.

Events are not separate at all and they do not require other events to start them.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
macgeek2005
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Feb 10, 2007, 12:36 PM
 
I haven't read this entire thread. Just the first post. To me, it's baffling that people even discuss this topic. The truth is so clear if you just open your eyes.

There is no free will.

Actions come before thoughts. For example, you stand up before your mind thinks about standing up.

Thoughts come before feelings. For example, you have a thought that you're feeling sad, before you feel sad.

Thoughts cause everything we do, movements, as well as feelings.

And lastly, we don't control what thoughts pop up in our head. We don't "decide" to think about Cheese, our mind decides to have us decide to think about it. So technically, the decision is yours, but the fact that you even thought about thinking about cheese wasn't in your control. It just pops up in your head.

The order and sequence in which thoughts come into our minds is completely mathematical. We are at one with the universe, just like all the other natural forces. One persons thoughts, are like a wave pushing up against another person, causing them to think something. It's an eternal circle. We decide what others think, but our thoughts are simultaneously being decided by their thoughts.

Try to do something other than what you do, moment by moment. There are no dual choices. There is always and only what you're doing. Free will is the illusion that arises from the belief that we could have done something that we didn't. You have no choice but to do with you did, because by the time you did it, it's unchangeable. You may think you have multiple options before you pick what to do, but what you pick was already decided before you picked it, and the proof of that is you picked it, and you didn't pick the others.

We are a movie. People moving around the earth, move around and talk exactly the way a movie is. Except we aren't on a screen, and aren't aware we are acting. However, we are acting. We are each playing a character that we believe is us.

What happens happens. There is no way that free will can exist. When you wake up, open your eyes, and realize the truth in what i've just said, you'll feel trapped and frightened, suddenly aware that your body is moving without your control. However, the next step is to just sit back and relax and enjoy the ride that your mind and body are taking you on.
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
I haven't read this entire thread. Just the first post. To me, it's baffling that people even discuss this topic. The truth is so clear if you just open your eyes.
It is? Is that why some of greatest thinkers in history have disagreed about it?

Actions come before thoughts. For example, you stand up before your mind thinks about standing up.
What comes before the action?

Thoughts come before feelings. For example, you have a thought that you're feeling sad, before you feel sad.
Thoughts and feelings arise mutually. They are two different parts of the same process that are totally dependent on each other.

Thoughts cause everything we do, movements, as well as feelings.
Really? Do thoughts cause your breathing? How about your heart beat? When you touch a hot stove do you think before you move your hand away?

And lastly, we don't control what thoughts pop up in our head. We don't "decide" to think about Cheese, our mind decides to have us decide to think about it.
So how is your mind separate from you?

You may think you have multiple options before you pick what to do, but what you pick was already decided before you picked it, and the proof of that is you picked it, and you didn't pick the others.
How is that proof of anything?

We are a movie. People moving around the earth, move around and talk exactly the way a movie is. Except we aren't on a screen, and aren't aware we are acting. However, we are acting. We are each playing a character that we believe is us.
You read a book on Hinduism once didn't you?

When you wake up, open your eyes, and realize the truth in what i've just said, you'll feel trapped and frightened, suddenly aware that your body is moving without your control.
Overly dramatic much?
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
I haven't read this entire thread. Just the first post. To me, it's baffling that people even discuss this topic. The truth is so clear if you just open your eyes.
...[snip]
macgeek, I think there are some crunchy morsels of truthiness in your post, but I get the feeling you're quoting Alan Watts or something. Has all of this been your experience, or are you cribbing, as it were?
     
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Feb 10, 2007, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by BlueSky View Post
I get the feeling you're quoting Alan Watts or something. Has all of this been your experience, or are you cribbing, as it were?
That's the impression I got.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
lpkmckenna
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Feb 10, 2007, 03:37 PM
 
Actions come before thoughts. For example, you stand up before your mind thinks about standing up.
Well-practiced actions require no thought - that's why we practice in the first place! Try playing the guitar for the first time and see how much thought it requires.


Well, you can stake that claim --
Good work is the key to good fortune
Winners take that praise
Losers seldom take that blame
If they don't take that game
And sometimes the winner takes nothing
We draw our own designs
But fortune has to make that frame

We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That's the way that lady luck dances
Roll the bones

Why are we here?
Because were here
Roll the bones
Why does it happen?
Because it happens
Roll the bones

Faith is cold as ice --
Why are little ones born only to suffer
For the want of immunity
Or a bowl of rice?
Well, who would hold a price
On the heads of the innocent children
If there's some immortal power
To control the dice?

We come into the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That's the way that lady luck dances
Roll the bones

Jack -- relax.
Get busy with the facts.
No zodiacs or almanacs,
No maniacs in polyester slacks.
Just the facts.
Gonna kick some gluteus max.
Its a parallax -- you dig?
You move around
The small gets big. it's a rig.
Its action -- reaction --
Random interaction.
So who's afraid
Of a little abstraction?
Can't get no satisfaction
From the facts?
You better run, homeboy --
A fact's a fact
From nome to rome, boy.

What's the deal? spin the wheel.
If the dice are hot -- take a shot.
Play your cards. show us what you got --
What you're holding.
If the cards are cold,
Don't go folding.
Lady luck is golden;
She favors the bold. that's cold.
Stop throwing stones --
The night has a thousand saxophones.
So get out there and rock,
And roll the bones.
Get busy!
     
macgeek2005
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Feb 11, 2007, 12:44 PM
 
The hot stove example was a perfect example for why we don't have free will. The hand moves away even if you don't want it too. And even if you don't want it too, and you can prevent it from moving away, what made you decide to not want to move it away? Was it you?

There's a great quote from Albert Einstien, which I can't find right now, but i'll try and write it as close to the real thing as possible.

"If the moon, in it's eternal travel around our planet, were to be granted with self consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it were moving according to it's own free will. So would a higher being, endowed with higher intelligence, smile at man's illusion that he is acting according to his own will"
- Albert Einstein.


Notice how he was so wise he doesn't even consider himself a being with higher intelligence. He knows that he's only human, but he knows that being human means he's under an illusion of free will. Theres no being free from the illusion. There is understanding it though.
     
Millennium
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Feb 11, 2007, 03:54 PM
 
If free will doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter, because hundreds of thousands of years of history have shown that we are fated, by whatever force defines 'fate,' to act as though free will did exist. Therefore, why bother?
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Millennium
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Feb 11, 2007, 04:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Peder Rice View Post
Physics proves determinism.
Actually, it doesn't. It was thought to at one point, but then Bell's inequalities (among other facets of quantum mechanics) got in the way, much to the chagrin of many physicists.

Modern science leaves the question of free will open.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
Chuckit
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Feb 11, 2007, 04:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
Actually, it doesn't. It was thought to at one point, but then Bell's inequalities (among other facets of quantum mechanics) got in the way, much to the chagrin of many physicists.

Modern science leaves the question of free will open.
Quantum physics has so thoroughly ****ed science over that it's almost impossible to say anything for certain on topics like that. I mean, heck, one of the big ideas there is called the Uncertainty Principle.
Chuck
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smacintush
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Feb 11, 2007, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
Was it you?
Yes.

You are imposing a separation between what you consciously decide and what your body does without conscious interference. The reality is that they are BOTH you.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
smacintush
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Feb 11, 2007, 05:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Quantum physics has so thoroughly ****ed science over that it's almost impossible to say anything for certain on topics like that. I mean, heck, one of the big ideas there is called the Uncertainty Principle.
Quantum Physics introduced REALITY into science.

Before it came along physics looking for A+B to always equal C. Reality just doesn't work that way.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
smacintush
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Feb 11, 2007, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by macgeek2005 View Post
There's a great quote from Albert Einstien, which I can't find right now, but i'll try and write it as close to the real thing as possible.

"If the moon, in it's eternal travel around our planet, were to be granted with self consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it were moving according to it's own free will. So would a higher being, endowed with higher intelligence, smile at man's illusion that he is acting according to his own will"
- Albert Einstein.


Notice how he was so wise he doesn't even consider himself a being with higher intelligence. He knows that he's only human, but he knows that being human means he's under an illusion of free will. Theres no being free from the illusion. There is understanding it though.
Nice quote but that was HIS OPINION.
Being in debt and celebrating a lower deficit is like being on a diet and celebrating the fact you gained two pounds this week instead of five.
     
Gamoe
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Feb 11, 2007, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
You are imposing a separation between what you consciously decide and what your body does without conscious interference. The reality is that they are BOTH you.
Instinct and conscious thought are not one in the same, and no sane person would hold one responsible for the former. The former is pre-programmed and built-in for our protection because it is immediate, while the latter is not. It is the difference between a fixed ROM and changeable software.
     
- - e r i k - -
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Feb 11, 2007, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
Actually, it doesn't. It was thought to at one point, but then Bell's inequalities (among other facets of quantum mechanics) got in the way, much to the chagrin of many physicists.

Modern science leaves the question of free will open.
Indeed. Peder Rice's (seemingly logical) conclusion has been outmoded for decades.

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Chuckit
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Feb 11, 2007, 07:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Quantum Physics introduced REALITY into science.

Before it came along physics looking for A+B to always equal C. Reality just doesn't work that way.
Even quantum physics is based on math. The math just doesn't add up the same way conventional physics does. This is a problem, too, and generally regarded as indicating a gap in our knowledge that's needed to unify physics again.
Chuck
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