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Gaza: What Am I Missing? (Page 2)
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RobOnTheCape
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Jul 24, 2014, 07:09 PM
 
Sounds like he's a bit suspect, but just because he's gone off on a few tangents(haven't we all?) doesn't mean he's wrong on this:

IDF's Gaza assault is to control Palestinian gas, avert Israeli energy crisis | Nafeez Ahmed | Environment | theguardian.com

Israel's War for Gaza's Gas - Le Monde diplomatique - English edition

Russia preparing to develop Gaza gas field - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

I don't know the truth, but it's certainly open to debate. If the Palestinians were able to exploit the fields, and bring in perhaps 4 billion dollars it would certainly change the complexion of things there.

Nevertheless, we should bail from an unwinnable situation. Pick a place on the planet and invest our tax dollars where they can make a difference - Guatemala or Honduras for starters. Tax dollars to the Middle East if simply flushing cash down the drain.
     
ebuddy
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Jul 24, 2014, 10:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It's completely brain dead to make this into a binary left-right issue (especially from an American perspective where you only have two parties to choose from). Also in Israel one of the consequences of the »Cottage Cheese Revolution« in 2011 was that Israeli politics has started to decouple social left-right from security-political left-right (e. g. the rise of Bennett's The Jewish Home is significant, a religious party which breaks with the ultra orthodox in important ways).
Truth be told, the American perspective is that there would actually be a right anywhere in the equation and on this, I agree with you. And I guess it bears repeating; there are multiple parties you can choose from in the US. Generally, you'll not do better than nuts, pro-private or pro-public. Call the rails what you will, those that are generally left-of-center on _name issue here_ happen to sympathize with the Palestinian plight while those right-of-center on _name issue here_ sympathize with the Israeli challenge. It's as sure as the rising and setting of the sun. The reason why things are getting more polarized is because we've whittled a lot of the ambiguity down to our core, fundamental differences. I don't think there's any merit in denying it and while I certainly could've been less US-centric in the framing of the question, there's also no reason to get mired in minutia.

I would've thought the perspective itself was more bothersome and worthy of response, if there were a cogent one of course.
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ebuddy
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Jul 24, 2014, 10:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
Nevertheless, we should bail from an unwinnable situation. Pick a place on the planet and invest our tax dollars where they can make a difference - Guatemala or Honduras for starters. Tax dollars to the Middle East if simply flushing cash down the drain.
Believe me when I tell you that with the decades of time and blood we've spent on the Middle Eastern endeavor; it's as "winnable" a win as there will ever be among humankind. The problem is, if you don't -- they will. If you're not growing, you're dying. There's the right way, the wrong way, and the way humans do it. I know it seems cold, but IMO, it is so.

One of the reasons we have not invested more in Banana Republics for example, is simply because the resources never bear fruit. (yes I did. ) Right off the bat the controlling government interest assumes most of the investment and is generally less trustworthy with it. i.e. it's a bad investment.
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Jul 25, 2014, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Call the rails what you will, those that are generally left-of-center on _name issue here_ happen to sympathize with the Palestinian plight while those right-of-center on _name issue here_ sympathize with the Israeli challenge. It's as sure as the rising and setting of the sun.
That's not even true in the US: Most American Jews are staunch Democrats. And the »they vote against their own interests« vibe which I get from Shaddim's post, for instance, rests on the false assumption that you know better.

Even your basic assumption to me, either you sympathize with the Palestinians more (»which means that in all likelihood you're from the left«) or you support Israel, is a false premise. Just because one is against Israel's reaction doesn't mean one is against Israel. I am of the opinion that current Israeli policies are harmful to Israel in the long term.

I happen to know and work with many Israelis (e. g. my boss is Israeli-Canadian), and many of them are disgusted by Israelis cheering when a missile hits Gaza while others are staunch supporters of the current government. Still others struggle with themselves to find a sensible answer.
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
The reason why things are getting more polarized is because we've whittled a lot of the ambiguity down to our core, fundamental differences.
What irks the most with opinions like yours is that you purport that there is one right way to look at the issue and you dismiss everything else. What surprised me the most when I went to Israel was how much more diverse the opinions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are compared to the United States or (to a lesser degree) Europe.
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I don't think there's any merit in denying it and while I certainly could've been less US-centric in the framing of the question, there's also no reason to get mired in minutia.
If you want an overview of the bigger picture, you just need to have a look at the maps which show you how the territory is split up between Israel and Palestine. And you have to make a choice: are you in favor of a two-state or a one-state solution? If you are in favor of a two-state solution (and that's still the official position of the Israeli government), you need a viable Palestinian state and fix a border. If you are in favor of a one-state solution, then you need to figure out what to do with the Palestinians who live in Gaza and the Westbank: do they become Israeli citizens? Will millions be displaced from their homes (and where do they go to?)? Or do you kill them?

Moreover, if you look at countries that have gone through a similar divide or are multi-ethnic (South Africa comes to mind), you'll see that you have to deal with the aftermath for decades, because it'll last several generations to heal the wounds even if both sides are willing to work on the differences.

Of course, we can choose whatever solution when we delve in simplistic black-white phantasies. We can follow turtle's suggest and make Gaza into a parking place, for instance. Even if that parking place serves no purpose for Israel.
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Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2014, 12:13 PM
 
Oh come on, this false equivalence is absurd. This isn't an Apartheid-like situation. AFAIK, black South Africans didn't bomb (mortars and suicide bombs) the s*** out of the white ruling class for 5 decades, and Mahmoud Abbas isn't Nelson Mandela. While I don't agree with everything the man (Mandela) did, that's a blatant insult to his memory. Palestine, as we know it, is a terrorist state and its "citizens" are indoctrinated militant extremists (re. terrorists). I don't see it as a salvageable situation, particularly not Gaza, and that whole strip of land needs to be razed.
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OreoCookie
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Jul 25, 2014, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh come on, this false equivalence is absurd. This isn't an Apartheid-like situation.
Please don't put words into my mouth, Shaddim. You're picking one thing out of context and get worked up about something that I haven't said or implied. If you think something I have written needs clarification, just ask me about it.
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Jul 25, 2014 at 12:32 PM. )
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Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2014, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Please don't put words into my mouth, Shaddim. You're picking one thing out of context and get worked up about something that I haven't said or implied. If you think something I have written needs clarification, just ask me about it.
I put nothing there that didn't come out on its own. It is not, NOT, NOT a "similar divide". The only similarity is that both places (S. Africa and Israel) have 2 distinctly different cultures. In the M.E. you have a systematically indoctrinated population that is taught from birth to hate another culture/race, to the point that they hate them more than they love anything, including life and family. That can't be repaired, it can't be "worked out". If the Palestinians came into power in what is now Israel the Jews living there would be mass exterminated, if they didn't flee for their lives, because that's what the Palestinians have sworn on their souls before God that they would do. This isn't me being dramatic, it's reality.

Rational people don't get it, they try to make it fit in their 5x5 way of thinking, to bring sense to it all, because it's not possible that an entire group/nation of people could be that way, but you know, they are. It isn't rational, it isn't reasonable, they aren't going to wake up tomorrow, or even 20 years from now, and decide that they shouldn't eradicate the Jews. And further, it doesn't stop with the nation of Israel, it goes on until they finally chase the last Jew down, no matter where he hides, and kill him. "That's crazy!" Yep, it sure is, and that's what Israel is dealing with.
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OreoCookie
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Jul 25, 2014, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I put nothing there that didn't come out on its own. It is not, NOT, NOT a "similar divide". The only similarity is that both places (S. Africa and Israel) have 2 distinctly different cultures. In the M.E. you have a systematically indoctrinated population that is taught from birth to hate another culture/race, to the point that they hate them more than they love anything, including life and family. That can't be repaired, it can't be "worked out".
I disagree, there are more similarities and the mutual animosity and hatred which exists on both sides is something that can be worked out. (Western) Europe overcame centuries of wars. After WW2 there was a lot of hatred and bitterness towards Germany -- and to a large degree it was completely justified. Germany has invaded the majority of European countries, the majority of the population had at least tacitly approved anti-semitism, participated in genocide and started the biggest war Europe has ever seen. Two generations later, you don't see any of that. It has been worked out despite all the obstacles, e. g. the former Nazis who got high-ranking jobs in the new republic of Germany. I just don't think the Israel-Palestine situation is that unusual in that respect, it's literally an old story.

Also in South Africa, you have had many of the same elements: you had state-mandated racism laws which enforced the idea that white people are racially superior to black people, black people confined to the lower class by limiting their options of what they can do, etc. These issues have not been dealt with at all, but people are working on it.

The biggest lesson from the European history is that you overcome animosity by growing together, by meeting one another -- even if it starts very pragmatically with, say, economic issues. I know nobody in Germany who advocates to conquer the Alsace back -- because you no longer have to. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a resolution of the Israeli-Palestine conflict will be easy or go smoothly, I think it'll be several generations worth of hard work. And I don't claim that the Middle East is exactly like, say, South Africa, it's not.
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Rational people don't get it, they try to make it fit in their 5x5 way of thinking, to bring sense to it all, because it's not possible that an entire group/nation of people could be that way, but you know, they are.
That argument actually made me laugh: »Rational people just don't get it?« (So I assume you are an irrational person then?)

Please, it's the oldest trick in the book to just claim »Oh, you can't understand because …« Being of a different opinion doesn't mean someone is incapable of understanding yours. Even with the exact same facts, two reasonable (or irrational) people can come to different conclusions.
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ebuddy
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Jul 25, 2014, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
That's not even true in the US: Most American Jews are staunch Democrats. And the »they vote against their own interests« vibe which I get from Shaddim's post, for instance, rests on the false assumption that you know better.
It's absolutely true and Shaddim is absolutely right. You establish my point below.

Even your basic assumption to me, either you sympathize with the Palestinians more (»which means that in all likelihood you're from the left«) or you support Israel, is a false premise. Just because one is against Israel's reaction doesn't mean one is against Israel. I am of the opinion that current Israeli policies are harmful to Israel in the long term.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why are you more concerned about the Israeli policies? What of the Hamas policies and how they've been affecting the relationship? It's the object of focus that illustrates the differences.

I happen to know and work with many Israelis (e. g. my boss is Israeli-Canadian), and many of them are disgusted by Israelis cheering when a missile hits Gaza while others are staunch supporters of the current government. Still others struggle with themselves to find a sensible answer.
Wait, I'm out of touch with Israelis and you're surprised they're watching and cheering as the Israeli military addresses the sect of asshats lobbing rockets into their population centers? Remember when the US was conducting "Shock and Awe" in Iraq? Now imagine that was only a few miles over the ridge. Yeah.

Otherwise, your anecdotes are secular, leftist Jews who believe Judaism is to blame just as Islam. They're patently mistaken, but it's absolutely true. Let me show you what I'm talking about.

Here's a poll taken of Israelis by Maagar Mohot Survey Institute showing Israelis oppose a Palestinian State 51% to 32%. Now let's break down their political affiliations;

Do you support or oppose the establishment of an independent Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria?
% Oppose by party:
  • Labor 25% (Least opposed. Labor -- no matter what country you're in, this is your left. Without fail. It's just the way it is. It's Big Labor/Centralized Authority vs Private Enterprise/Free Market Capitalism. These are the two sides you're voting for no matter where you are. Period.)
  • Kadima 36% (Second-least opposed. Left. Don't take my word for it, ask your Israeli friends.)
  • Yisrael Beiteinu 60% (and then we start moving toward the right)
  • Likud 72% (it's just the way it is)
  • Shas 79% (and yes, I'm correct)

What irks the most with opinions like yours is that you purport that there is one right way to look at the issue and you dismiss everything else. What surprised me the most when I went to Israel was how much more diverse the opinions on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are compared to the United States or (to a lesser degree) Europe.
This is nothing more than opinion. You've got religious sects, secular sects, Big Labor/Union/Centralized Authority vs Free Market Capitalism. It's never more diverse than that. What irks me the most is people who seek to solve problems from a complete La-La Land perspective.

If you want an overview of the bigger picture, you just need to have a look at the maps which show you how the territory is split up between Israel and Palestine. And you have to make a choice: are you in favor of a two-state or a one-state solution? If you are in favor of a two-state solution (and that's still the official position of the Israeli government), you need a viable Palestinian state and fix a border. If you are in favor of a one-state solution, then you need to figure out what to do with the Palestinians who live in Gaza and the Westbank: do they become Israeli citizens? Will millions be displaced from their homes (and where do they go to?)? Or do you kill them?
La-La Land.

Only 27.3 percent of Palestinians support a two-state solution. By contrast, more than two-thirds see the restoration of all of historic Palestine to Arab control as the only legitimate national goal for their people.

There's your problem. You see, the Israelis including your Israeli friends might be diverse and pragmatic and reasonable people, but it takes two willing sides. Your line of reasoning is akin to holing up in a closet with John Wayne Gacy and wondering why we can't all just get along.

Does it matter to you that the Palestinians do not want a two-state solution? I mean... at all??? Are you going to simply want it badly enough for them to make it work? Are you going to wish it so until something magical happens?

Moreover, if you look at countries that have gone through a similar divide or are multi-ethnic (South Africa comes to mind), you'll see that you have to deal with the aftermath for decades, because it'll last several generations to heal the wounds even if both sides are willing to work on the differences.
But... both sides aren't willing to work on the differences. While the kerfuffle has ancient roots, it has been nearly 70 years during our modern times and one side has remained defiant to this will.

You're asking me should we kill them, let me ask you; if someone had a gun pointed at your face and you had the resources to eliminate the threat -- would you? Does that make you a horrible person? Does it make the people who love you horrible for being thankful and supportive of you for taking this action?

Of course, we can choose whatever solution when we delve in simplistic black-white phantasies. We can follow turtle's suggest and make Gaza into a parking place, for instance. Even if that parking place serves no purpose for Israel.
Or we can remain confused and insist this issue is far more complicated than it is for another 500 years; offering nothing more than solutions that have absolutely zero basis in reality. If the good people would just want it badly enough, it'll all work out.
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Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2014, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I disagree, there are more similarities and the mutual animosity and hatred which exists on both sides is something that can be worked out. (Western) Europe overcame centuries of wars. After WW2 there was a lot of hatred and bitterness towards Germany -- and to a large degree it was completely justified. Germany has invaded the majority of European countries, the majority of the population had at least tacitly approved anti-semitism, participated in genocide and started the biggest war Europe has ever seen. Two generations later, you don't see any of that. It has been worked out despite all the obstacles, e. g. the former Nazis who got high-ranking jobs in the new republic of Germany. I just don't think the Israel-Palestine situation is that unusual in that respect, it's literally an old story.

Also in South Africa, you have had many of the same elements: you had state-mandated racism laws which enforced the idea that white people are racially superior to black people, black people confined to the lower class by limiting their options of what they can do, etc. These issues have not been dealt with at all, but people are working on it.

The biggest lesson from the European history is that you overcome animosity by growing together, by meeting one another -- even if it starts very pragmatically with, say, economic issues. I know nobody in Germany who advocates to conquer the Alsace back -- because you no longer have to. Don't get me wrong, I don't think a resolution of the Israeli-Palestine conflict will be easy or go smoothly, I think it'll be several generations worth of hard work. And I don't claim that the Middle East is exactly like, say, South Africa, it's not.

That argument actually made me laugh: »Rational people just don't get it?« (So I assume you are an irrational person then?)

Please, it's the oldest trick in the book to just claim »Oh, you can't understand because …« Being of a different opinion doesn't mean someone is incapable of understanding yours. Even with the exact same facts, two reasonable (or irrational) people can come to different conclusions.
Uh huh. No, you don't understand it, and it's Western arrogance to think we do. I was that way, until a Palestinian Christian who had lived in the middle of it for 50 years spelled it out to me, as if I were a child.

This isn't the same as: S Africa, Germany, <insert other ethnic misunderstanding here>. When you believe you have a mandate from God to wipe out another race, and you indoctrinated all of your people (from the cradle) that the destruction of that other race is the foremost tenant of your religion, even going so far as to say they'll receive eternal salvation for murdering members of that race, you've created a very unique culture of psychopaths. They believe this hatred is 4,000 years old, and in some capacity it could be, and it's burning as bright as it ever has and is made even more toxic due to proximity.

"But, this can be fixed! They only need opportunity and resources!" No, they'll use those resources and opportunities to kill more Jews. It's that simple, that's what they dream about, it's what their eternal life depends on and what they're bred to do, and unless you get that, you'll never understand this war.
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Jul 25, 2014, 07:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Why is sympathy for this sect of jihadism primarily falling along party lines? It's absolutely bizarre to me.
To me it looks like this issue follows the standard partisan templates in which liberals seek empathy and common ground, while conservatives seek victory and reciprocity (eg evildoers deserve punishment and Horatio Algers deserve riches). Liberals love it when the unity of human nature shines through, they/we love it so much so as to cling to the faintest evidence that this unity exists, even in the face of decades of counter-indicators.

I have always been inclined to jump at any evidence that Palestinians are in some way like us (American or Israeli), and that they would participate in a peaceful reconciliation if only we gave them a big enough chance/incentive to rise to the occasion. As if they're eligible to be empathized with, and we just have to solve the puzzle of how to unlock our latent collective connection. I still would jump at such evidence today. But I no longer expect this evidence to ever arise.
     
BadKosh
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Jul 26, 2014, 06:08 AM
 
It seems like the only way out is (gasp) to eliminate the Muslim world, and its violence, hatred and disgusting way they treat everybody and every place. Blowing up Jonahs' tomb? Really? Female genitalia mutilated? No one wants to admit it, but does seem to be the only logical solution.
     
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Jul 26, 2014, 07:53 AM
 
ISIS is also crucifying the Catholics in Mosul
45/47
     
ebuddy
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Jul 26, 2014, 10:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
To me it looks like this issue follows the standard partisan templates in which liberals seek empathy and common ground, while conservatives seek victory and reciprocity (eg evildoers deserve punishment and Horatio Algers deserve riches). Liberals love it when the unity of human nature shines through, they/we love it so much so as to cling to the faintest evidence that this unity exists, even in the face of decades of counter-indicators.

I have always been inclined to jump at any evidence that Palestinians are in some way like us (American or Israeli), and that they would participate in a peaceful reconciliation if only we gave them a big enough chance/incentive to rise to the occasion. As if they're eligible to be empathized with, and we just have to solve the puzzle of how to unlock our latent collective connection. I still would jump at such evidence today. But I no longer expect this evidence to ever arise.
I've heard the differences broken out more simply as heart vs head. i.e. "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” IMO, most share a good supply of both heart and head, but maturity causes an eventual, greater balance between the two. Wisdom.

When the two are not in balance, we leave ourselves vulnerable to populist, fashionable hype -- expressing more empathy for the criminal than the victim.
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Jul 26, 2014, 02:02 PM
 
Meanwhile back to the topic at hand ....

When the bodies of three Israeli teenagers, kidnapped in the West Bank, were found late last month, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu did not mince words. "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas will pay," he said, initiating a campaign that eventually escalated into the present conflict in the region.

But now, officials admit the kidnappings were not Hamas's handiwork after all.

BuzzFeed reporter Sheera Frenkel was among the first to suggest that it was unlikely that Hamas was behind the deaths of Gilad Shaar, Naftali Frenkel, and Eyal Yifrach. Citing Palestinian sources and experts the field, Frenkel reported that kidnapping three Israeli teens would be a foolish move for Hamas. International experts told her it was likely the work of a local group, acting without concern for the repercussions:
Hamas Didn’t Kidnap the Israeli Teens After All -- NYMag

Posting on an iPhone continues to suck monkey balls so I won't try to cut and paste another quote, but suffice it to say the article shows that the Israeli government knew those teens in the West Bank were already dead and Hamas wasn't behind the kidnapping and killing BEFORE they attacked Gaza. Imagine that.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jul 26, 2014 at 02:13 PM. )
     
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Jul 26, 2014, 02:11 PM
 
Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

Go back and re-read eBuddy's post. That's all there is to it. Everything else is just noise, used to justify one's position and personal beliefs.

http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...g/#post4285136

-t
     
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Jul 26, 2014, 08:43 PM
 
No, it was a different deranged Palestinian group that loves murdering Jews, not the official/elected one.

Addressing a comment earlier, no, this won't end until the West is unified against militant Islam and all jihadists are eliminated.
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RobOnTheCape
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Jul 27, 2014, 08:53 AM
 
How do you defeat a stateless group? Do you really think that if the West unifies and goes to war against some stateless group(and a fanatical religious one at that) that eventually they'll say "we give up"? I'm not sure we've seen this work so far, and most likely wont. I think that's trillions of dollars and wishful thinking wasted.
     
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Jul 27, 2014, 01:27 PM
 
Somehow I get the impression that people just don't believe Israel this time. I think the world may believe that the Israelies saw what Putin did with Ukraine and figured they could do something similar and start a land grab of their own. People seem to have lost patience with them.

As for Gaza, I'm sure the majority of the citizens would much prefer to live and raise their families in safety instead of fighting and living under constant threat of random death from above, but every rocket that lands will create another X Muslim extremists hell bent on revenge when they lose their families and all their reasons to live in peace.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 27, 2014, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It seems like the only way out is (gasp) to eliminate the Muslim world, and its violence, hatred and disgusting way they treat everybody and every place. Blowing up Jonahs' tomb? Really? Female genitalia mutilated? No one wants to admit it, but does seem to be the only logical solution.

It took a very long time but we have eradicated most of the worst of that behaviour from the Christian population. Should we have wiped them out instead of putting up with it for so long? Its never too late.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 27, 2014, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It took a very long time but we have eradicated most of the worst of that behaviour from the Christian population. Should we have wiped them out instead of putting up with it for so long? Its never too late.
More false equivalence, no Christian terror group exists, or has ever existed, on the scale or intensity of radical Islam. The IRA? Pfftt. The Crusades? Hah.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Somehow I get the impression that people just don't believe Israel this time. I think the world may believe that the Israelies saw what Putin did with Ukraine and figured they could do something similar and start a land grab of their own. People seem to have lost patience with them.

As for Gaza, I'm sure the majority of the citizens would much prefer to live and raise their families in safety instead of fighting and living under constant threat of random death from above, but every rocket that lands will create another X Muslim extremists hell bent on revenge when they lose their families and all their reasons to live in peace.
"Lost patience"? Israel has been restrained long enough, and even now they aren't operating on a large enough scale to destroy the Jihadist threat. It isn't even close. No other democratic country would tolerate what they've endured, and continue to endure, on a regular basis. You have no idea what the "Majority of Palestinians" want, because their desires are wrapped entirely around hating and destroying Jews. They readily sacrifice themselves and their children based on what they believe God wants, it's ingrained into them from birth and they're taught that the highest honor is to sacrifice their lives killing Jews. In fact, if they had the organizational skills and resources, there would be mass murder on a scale that would make the Holocaust look like a mere misunderstanding. In WW2 there was a relative few "devout" Nazis in Germany and look what they did, can you imagine what it would have been like if every German was spiritually invested in destroying everyone of Jewish descent?

I don't expect you to get this, like most people who aren't in the middle of it, it doesn't appear that you can grasp that there are entire populations like this. They don't think like you or want anything that resembles what you want, and no amount of rhetoric changes that. If you were a Jew they'd cheerfully gut you with a smile on their face and a prayer on their lips, then drag your body around for all their friends to see, because that's who they are.

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
How do you defeat a stateless group? Do you really think that if the West unifies and goes to war against some stateless group(and a fanatical religious one at that) that eventually they'll say "we give up"? I'm not sure we've seen this work so far, and most likely wont. I think that's trillions of dollars and wishful thinking wasted.
When a group starts spouting, "We will kill the infidels!", something they can't seem to keep from doing, we destroy them, utterly. We don't wait for the other shoe to drop, we preempt them. Essentially, we find the people within all the radical factions of Islam and annihilate them. Jihadists are a cancer within civilization and there's no place for them on this world.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Chongo
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Jul 27, 2014, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
In WW2 there was a relative few "devout" Nazis in Germany and look what they did, can you imagine what it would have been like if every German was spiritually invested in destroying everyone of Jewish descent?
Brigitte Gabriel explains this (the peaceful majority) very well.
Brigitte Gabriel gives FANTASTIC answer to Muslim woman claiming all Muslims are portrayed badly » T - YouTube
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Jul 27, 2014, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
It seems like the only way out is (gasp) to eliminate the Muslim world, and its violence, hatred and disgusting way they treat everybody and every place. Blowing up Jonahs' tomb? Really? Female genitalia mutilated? No one wants to admit it, but does seem to be the only logical solution.
ISIS blew up, get this, a MOSQUE, that housed the tomb of the Prophet Jonah. They are definitly whacked.
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Jul 27, 2014, 04:19 PM
 
If I had to explain why this is falling down party lines, I'd say it's quite simply one character in this play is sympathetic, and the other is not.

I'll also note one party casts themselves as the sympathetic character and the other party as not.

I'll leave it to the readers to consider how these may be connected.
     
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Jul 27, 2014, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
More false equivalence, no Christian terror group exists, or has ever existed, on the scale or intensity of radical Islam. The IRA? Pfftt. The Crusades? Hah.
As for the IRA, its all relative. How long has the world been dealing with anything like the current version of radical Islam? A few decades. The IRA probably got going around the same time if not a bit before. I wasn't around in the 60s or 70s, but both those groups were being assholes all throughout the 80s. Factor in the difference in population and the fact that members of the IRA had access to decent education instead of nothing but religious brainwashing and the two are probably much more comparable than you'd like to think.
The crusades are also a perfectly valid point to raise. If you think those guys wouldn't have taken advantage of weapons of mass destruction you're kidding yourself. You could spare a thought for the Inquisition too I should think.
It isn't even about sic direct comparisons. Its the general murderous, violent attitudes, the intolerance of other viewpoints, subjugation of women as property, etc, etc. Perhaps you forget that these religions are all born from the same roots? 2000 years later most of the Christians have stopped stoning their wives to death for adultery, not so many of the Muslims have sadly. Still most of them though.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"Lost patience"? Israel has been restrained long enough, and even now they aren't operating on a large enough scale to destroy the Jihadist threat. It isn't even close. No other democratic country would tolerate what they've endured, and continue to endure, on a regular basis.
I didn't say Israel had lost patience. I said the rest of the world seems to have lost patience with Israel. Perhaps you aren't paying attention, but FaceBook and news outlets over here are posting a far higher amount of pro-Palestinian reports than they ever have in the past. Of course the US has only ever had one-sided coverage in favour of Israel in the past so perhaps that is still the case now. Certainly public opinion over here has usually been on their side in the past. Something is different this time.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You have no idea what the "Majority of Palestinians" want, because their desires are wrapped entirely around hating and destroying Jews.
People are people and the majority always want to be allowed to live in peace. If you extrapolate my little formula back over the duration of the occupation and take into account the density of the population, you'll likely conclude that it would be pretty difficult to find someone in Gaza who hasn't lost friends or relatives to the conflict. I can only speculate as to what effect those conditions would have on Americans. Do you imagine for a second they would show any less spite? I don't.

The general animosity between Jews and Arabs goes back long before this particular situation of course. Thats a whole separate issue.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
They readily sacrifice themselves and their children based on what they believe God wants, it's ingrained into them from birth and they're taught that the highest honor is to sacrifice their lives killing Jews. In fact, if they had the organizational skills and resources, there would be mass murder on a scale that would make the Holocaust look like a mere misunderstanding. In WW2 there was a relative few "devout" Nazis in Germany and look what they did, can you imagine what it would have been like if every German was spiritually invested in destroying everyone of Jewish descent?
Its a different kind of sacrifice but all soldiers can be said to offer their lives for a cause. Yours in particular often have God drummed into them from birth as well as patriotism as an extra motivator.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I don't expect you to get this, like most people who aren't in the middle of it, it doesn't appear that you can grasp that there are entire populations like this.
I forgot that not only do you know everything, but that you are the only one who does. Oops.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
They don't think like you or want anything that resembles what you want, and no amount of rhetoric changes that. If you were a Jew they'd cheerfully gut you with a smile on their face and a prayer on their lips, then drag your body around for all their friends to see, because that's who they are.
And there are plenty of Jews in Israel who would do the same to any Muslim. I pretty sure there are still a few Christians in the US who would do the same to an atheist if they thought they could get away with it.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
When a group starts spouting, "We will kill the infidels!", something they can't seem to keep from doing, we destroy them, utterly. We don't wait for the other shoe to drop, we preempt them. Essentially, we find the people within all the radical factions of Islam and annihilate them. Jihadists are a cancer within civilization and there's no place for them on this world.
As with cancer, if you don't get it all, it will come back. Unlike cancer, killing them creates more of them. It can even have a delayed effect so if you got them all, it could still lead to the creation of more down the line.
Again, there is lots of similar if diluted thought among Christian America. They seek to write laws, suppress progress, restrict the freedoms of women and non-christians, etc, etc. The roots are the same and so is the mindset. The difference is only a matter of living in a place where the majority (and the lawmakers) agree with you so you can get away with the more extreme version of that behaviour without being imprisoned or otherwise punished.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jul 27, 2014, 09:36 PM
 
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...&version=RSVCE

12 An Oracle

The word of the Lord concerning Israel: Thus says the Lord, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him: 2 “Lo, I am about to make Jerusalem a cup of reeling to all the peoples round about; it will be against Judah also in the siege against Jerusalem. 3 On that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it shall grievously hurt themselves. And all the nations of the earth will come together against it. 4 On that day, says the Lord, I will strike every horse with panic, and its rider with madness. But upon the house of Judah I will open my eyes, when I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 Then the clans of Judah shall say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through the Lord of hosts, their God.’
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Jul 27, 2014, 11:37 PM
 
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Jul 27, 2014, 11:56 PM
 
One man's summary.
There would be no Israel if it were not for European anti-semitism and British Self Interest | Two Thirds Done
In summary

The last independent state in what is now Israel/ Palestine/Jordan was a Jewish state but that was almost two thousand years ago.
The Palestinians never had their own state but they clearly lived in Israel/Palestine/Jordan long enough to deserve one.
The Turks ruled the Area for more than 400 years which ended in 1918.
Jews in Europe wanted a Jewish Homeland because of Antisemitism.
The British agreed to help the Jews get a Homeland in order to get Jewish support both financially and politically.
The British took control of Israel/Palestine/Jordan at the end of WWI from the Turks.
The British wanted the support of the Arabs as well so the lied to both the Jews and Arabs and promised them the same land.
Jews and Arabs did not want to share a country with each other and still don’t.
The Jews and Arabs not only fought with each other but also with the British.
The British had enough and turned over the whole mess to the newly formed UN in 1947
The UN partition Palestine into two countries, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs
Neither side was happy with this but the Jews accepted it and the Palestinians and other Arabs did not. The borders drawn up were not stable in any case.
War broke out and the Jews were able to take about 60% of the land that had been promised to the Palestinians by the time a truce was signed. Jordan took the West Bank with Egypt taking Gaza. No Palestinian State was formed and there was no further discussion about doing that.
About 700,000 Jews living in Arab nations were forced out even though they have been living in some of those countries for thousands of years. About an equal number of Arabs left what is now the state of Israel and in a sense were replaced with the displaced Jews from the Arab lands.
Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza as a result of the 1967 war.
Jordan threw out the PLO in 1970.
Israel and Jordan signed a peace agreement in 1994. As part of that, Jordan gave up their claim to the West Bank and the idea of an independent Palestinian state reemerged.
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Jul 28, 2014, 01:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
As for the IRA, its all relative. How long has the world been dealing with anything like the current version of radical Islam? A few decades. The IRA probably got going around the same time if not a bit before. I wasn't around in the 60s or 70s, but both those groups were being assholes all throughout the 80s. Factor in the difference in population and the fact that members of the IRA had access to decent education instead of nothing but religious brainwashing and the two are probably much more comparable than you'd like to think.
The crusades are also a perfectly valid point to raise. If you think those guys wouldn't have taken advantage of weapons of mass destruction you're kidding yourself. You could spare a thought for the Inquisition too I should think.
It isn't even about sic direct comparisons. Its the general murderous, violent attitudes, the intolerance of other viewpoints, subjugation of women as property, etc, etc. Perhaps you forget that these religions are all born from the same roots? 2000 years later most of the Christians have stopped stoning their wives to death for adultery, not so many of the Muslims have sadly. Still most of them though.
As I said, it's not even the same level of intensity or scope, if you think this has been going on for a "few decades" you're grossly mistaken. The media has simply made it more available to us.

I didn't say Israel had lost patience. I said the rest of the world seems to have lost patience with Israel. Perhaps you aren't paying attention, but FaceBook and news outlets over here are posting a far higher amount of pro-Palestinian reports than they ever have in the past. Of course the US has only ever had one-sided coverage in favour of Israel in the past so perhaps that is still the case now. Certainly public opinion over here has usually been on their side in the past. Something is different this time.
It doesn't matter what some in Europe think, Israel has had enough and shouldn't be expected to endure it any longer. **** Europe, they wouldn't tolerate it, so they shouldn't expect someone else to.

People are people and the majority always want to be allowed to live in peace. If you extrapolate my little formula back over the duration of the occupation and take into account the density of the population, you'll likely conclude that it would be pretty difficult to find someone in Gaza who hasn't lost friends or relatives to the conflict. I can only speculate as to what effect those conditions would have on Americans. Do you imagine for a second they would show any less spite? I don't.
They don't want to live in peace, they want to destroy Israel and slaughter Jews. That's where most people disconnect, they can't grasp that there are entire populations who are like this.

The general animosity between Jews and Arabs goes back long before this particular situation of course. Thats a whole separate issue.
No it isn't, it's the same centuries-old recycled hate and bloodlust.

Its a different kind of sacrifice but all soldiers can be said to offer their lives for a cause. Yours in particular often have God drummed into them from birth as well as patriotism as an extra motivator.
Mine? I'm not aware of any Gnostic wars, at least not since the 2nd century AD. These aren't soldiers, they're a society structured and tempered around the philosophy of Jihad and destroying the "disciples of Satan" (the Jews). That bears repeating, in case anyone here didn't get it the first time,

They're a society structured and tempered around the philosophy of Jihad and destroying the "disciples of Satan" (the Jews).

I forgot that not only do you know everything, but that you are the only one who does. Oops.
In this matter I know more than most, because; One, I've watched it firsthand, and Two, I've spent years around people who lived in that environment most of their lives.

And there are plenty of Jews in Israel who would do the same to any Muslim. I pretty sure there are still a few Christians in the US who would do the same to an atheist if they thought they could get away with it.
Again, false equivalence, the overwhelming majority of Jews wouldn't, and neither would the indigenous Christians living there. They aren't taught that from the moment they're born, and it isn't embedded into their cultural and religious consciousness. Your misguided belief that there is a connection between the Jihadists and any mainstream Christian or Jewish faith is simple ignorance.

As with cancer, if you don't get it all, it will come back. Unlike cancer, killing them creates more of them. It can even have a delayed effect so if you got them all, it could still lead to the creation of more down the line. Again, there is lots of similar if diluted thought among Christian America. They seek to write laws, suppress progress, restrict the freedoms of women and non-christians, etc, etc. The roots are the same and so is the mindset. The difference is only a matter of living in a place where the majority (and the lawmakers) agree with you so you can get away with the more extreme version of that behaviour without being imprisoned or otherwise punished.
That's why we have to get it all, we have to destroy Jihadism, utterly. If we only had swords and bows, experiments in trying to curb the effects of their evil and sadistic cult could be investigated, however there are just too many readily accessible ways for them to murder innocents, even with limited resources. Simply put, Islamic extremism is the antithesis to peaceful coexistence on this planet.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 28, 2014, 06:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
As I said, it's not even the same level of intensity or scope,
Like I say, factor in education and numbers, then consider that members of the IRA didn't go to terrorist training camps in countries where everyone hated and dehumanised their enemies. They attacked and killed their neighbours, people they lived amongst their whole lives. Scope and intensity, aside from being very much a judgement call, is kinda irrelevant once you get beyond a point where you think its a good idea to set of nail bombs in shopping centres.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
if you think this has been going on for a "few decades" you're grossly mistaken. The media has simply made it more available to us.
A quick google reveals the first campaign of suicide bomb attacks was in Lebanon in the 80s. A few decades back. It seems you're just blaming the entire history of Muslim-Jewish animosity on jihadists.

http://aoav.org.uk/2013/a-short-hist...cide-bombings/

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It doesn't matter what some in Europe think, Israel has had enough and shouldn't be expected to endure it any longer. **** Europe, they wouldn't tolerate it, so they shouldn't expect someone else to.
Hate to break it to you but if public opinion doesn't matter, that includes yours. I merely wished to make it known that there has been a pretty sudden and drastic swing in public opinion. Outside of America anyway. I wasn't really commenting on what Israel should or shouldn't do, though they might be wise now to let things cool off for a while.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
They don't want to live in peace, they want to destroy Israel and slaughter Jews. That's where most people disconnect, they can't grasp that there are entire populations who are like this.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
No it isn't, it's the same centuries-old recycled hate and bloodlust.
There are plenty of places where Jews and Muslims coexist without anyone getting blown up. The history can (and probably should) be treated separately to the Israel-Palestine conflict.



Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Mine? I'm not aware of any Gnostic wars, at least not since the 2nd century AD.
I was under the impression that a good few US soldiers were recruited bible-thumping states and your CIC traditionally invokes god and/or Jesus when attempting to rouse them or justifying their action in the first place.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
These aren't soldiers, they're a society structured and tempered around the philosophy of Jihad and destroying the "disciples of Satan" (the Jews). That bears repeating, in case anyone here didn't get it the first time,
I imagine they see themselves as soldiers.
I've seen polls from America that list atheists as 'less trustworthy than rapists'. Given there are many perfectly sensible people who would gladly beat a rapist, what then does this tell us about what Americans might really like to do to atheists? (incidentally other polls rate muslims even less popular).
You don't think this is due to similar if less severe religious indoctrination? This is in a country where education is legally separated from religion (or supposed to be). Imagine how much worse it would be if that was not the case.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistb...an-Rapists.htm


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Again, false equivalence, the overwhelming majority of Jews wouldn't, and neither would the indigenous Christians living there. They aren't taught that from the moment they're born, and it isn't embedded into their cultural and religious consciousness.
I was thinking more of the Christians in the US than the ones in Israel. With Jews its probably the reverse. The American Jews are probably less murderous than the Israelis. I'll grant you the Israeli Jews might not have the same hatred as the Palestinians have for them, but there are far fewer Israeli civilians being killed Palestinian rockets than the other way around too.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Your misguided belief that there is a connection between the Jihadists and any mainstream Christian or Jewish faith is simple ignorance.
Its a plain and simple fact. They are all (monotheistic) religions. They all share a lot of scripture. They have plenty in common, it just doesn't suit you to see it apparently.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
That's why we have to get it all, we have to destroy Jihadism, utterly. If we only had swords and bows, experiments in trying to curb the effects of their evil and sadistic cult could be investigated, however there are just too many readily accessible ways for them to murder innocents, even with limited resources. Simply put, Islamic extremism is the antithesis to peaceful coexistence on this planet.
Any kind of extremism is of extreme detriment to humanity and peaceful coexistence.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ebuddy
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Jul 28, 2014, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Hate to break it to you but if public opinion doesn't matter, that includes yours. I merely wished to make it known that there has been a pretty sudden and drastic swing in public opinion. Outside of America anyway. I wasn't really commenting on what Israel should or shouldn't do, though they might be wise now to let things cool off for a while.
How much love for Jews do you suppose has really been lost among Europeans? At the surface, I'd say there has been a demonstrable hatred for Jews for some time, do you have some evidence of this sudden and drastic swing in public opinion?

Israel can no longer concern itself as much with public opinion as that is exactly what has perpetuated the madness.

There are plenty of places where Jews and Muslims coexist without anyone getting blown up. The history can (and probably should) be treated separately to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
So indeed, the problem is the Palestinians.

I was under the impression that a good few US soldiers were recruited bible-thumping states and your CIC traditionally invokes god and/or Jesus when attempting to rouse them or justifying their action in the first place.
You might be watching too much US cinema.

I've seen polls from America that list atheists as 'less trustworthy than rapists'. Given there are many perfectly sensible people who would gladly beat a rapist, what then does this tell us about what Americans might really like to do to atheists? (incidentally other polls rate muslims even less popular).
You don't think this is due to similar if less severe religious indoctrination? This is in a country where education is legally separated from religion (or supposed to be). Imagine how much worse it would be if that was not the case.

Atheists Trusted Less Than Rapists
You mean like the above poll that surveyed 105 undergrads from the University of British Columbia... in Vancouver, BC Canada ?

I was thinking more of the Christians in the US than the ones in Israel. With Jews its probably the reverse. The American Jews are probably less murderous than the Israelis. I'll grant you the Israeli Jews might not have the same hatred as the Palestinians have for them, but there are far fewer Israeli civilians being killed Palestinian rockets than the other way around too.
You've nailed it right here. If the Israelis were this bent on land or merely eliminating Palestinians, it would have been done a long time ago. Geopolitics are so profound at this point that they're not even allowed to defend themselves in the same manner as everyone else. After all, if it were up to the likes of France, pro-Palestinians wouldn't even be allowed to assemble.

Its a plain and simple fact. They are all (monotheistic) religions. They all share a lot of scripture. They have plenty in common, it just doesn't suit you to see it apparently.
Jihadists don't even share the same interpretations of the Quran as the more moderate sects, let alone the differences between they and other monotheistic religions. I think what we may have here is a need for you to express your own religious antagonism by exploiting jihadi atrocity in lumping all monotheistic religions together.

Any kind of extremism is of extreme detriment to humanity and peaceful coexistence.
Truer words have never been spoken and the worst atrocities in history are those of atheist intolerance and eventual tyranny; Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong...
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Jul 28, 2014, 10:41 AM
 
This is the proposed 1947 UN partition, the one the Israelis accepted and the Arabs did not. Note the "West Bank" is part of the proposed Arab state and not part of Jordan.


Jordan took control of the "West Bank" after the 1948 war. Jordan had control of the "West Bank" for 29 years and never set up a "Palestine" state there. Had Jordan set up an independant "Palestine" there would still be war against Israel because the Arabs hate the Jews.
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Jul 28, 2014, 11:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
*great rebuttal*
You're wasting your time, his broken, anti-religious sentiments have him viewing all people of faith in the same light, and that's so ****ed up I don't even know what to think about it. If this is a taste of what's being thought in Europe, then I understand why Israel is now deciding to give them the finger. They deserve it.

"Elsewhere Muslims and Jews get along fine!"

Do you honestly believe there's no difference between moderate Muslims and Jihadists? Bloody shit, man. Is that a reverse Colbert, with a conservative trying to play the part of a wingnut socialist?
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Jul 28, 2014, 11:25 AM
 
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Jul 28, 2014, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Like I say, factor in education and numbers, then consider that members of the IRA didn't go to terrorist training camps in countries where everyone hated and dehumanised their enemies. They attacked and killed their neighbours, people they lived amongst their whole lives. Scope and intensity, aside from being very much a judgement call, is kinda irrelevant once you get beyond a point where you think its a good idea to set of nail bombs in shopping centres.
No. Not even close, but thanks for playing.

A quick google reveals the first campaign of suicide bomb attacks was in Lebanon in the 80s. A few decades back. It seems you're just blaming the entire history of Muslim-Jewish animosity on jihadists.

A short history of suicide bombing | AOAV
Thanks for the confirmation. That was when bombs made from readily available materials could be made small enough to conceal on your person. The tech didn't exist before, but the hate and murderous traits sure as hell did.

Hate to break it to you but if public opinion doesn't matter, that includes yours. I merely wished to make it known that there has been a pretty sudden and drastic swing in public opinion. Outside of America anyway. I wasn't really commenting on what Israel should or shouldn't do, though they might be wise now to let things cool off for a while.
Sure doesn't, but at least I understand some part of how they feel, since I have friends and family living there.

There are plenty of places where Jews and Muslims coexist without anyone getting blown up. The history can (and probably should) be treated separately to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
You don't actually see the difference between "normal" Muslims and Jihadists? That has to be a joke. Tell me you simply didn't think that through.

I was under the impression that a good few US soldiers were recruited bible-thumping states and your CIC traditionally invokes god and/or Jesus when attempting to rouse them or justifying their action in the first place.
That was a Tarantino movie.

I imagine they see themselves as soldiers.
I've seen polls from America that list atheists as 'less trustworthy than rapists'. Given there are many perfectly sensible people who would gladly beat a rapist, what then does this tell us about what Americans might really like to do to atheists? (incidentally other polls rate muslims even less popular).
You don't think this is due to similar if less severe religious indoctrination? This is in a country where education is legally separated from religion (or supposed to be). Imagine how much worse it would be if that was not the case.

Atheists Trusted Less Than Rapists
ebuddy tore this apart, I just want to add how painfully dishonest that is, it really explains the mindset of the modern atheist. Don't you think?

I was thinking more of the Christians in the US than the ones in Israel. With Jews its probably the reverse. The American Jews are probably less murderous than the Israelis. I'll grant you the Israeli Jews might not have the same hatred as the Palestinians have for them, but there are far fewer Israeli civilians being killed Palestinian rockets than the other way around too.
Again, if you can't see that there's a difference between a Jihadist and a mainline Christian, Jew, or Muslim, then there's no point in trying to explain anything else to you.

Its a plain and simple fact. They are all (monotheistic) religions. They all share a lot of scripture. They have plenty in common, it just doesn't suit you to see it apparently.
and there's more here... holy balls, man.

Any kind of extremism is of extreme detriment to humanity and peaceful coexistence.
Yep. The problem is, you apparently think anyone who is religious is an extremist. Which makes you a type of extremist yourself, you know?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Jul 28, 2014, 11:37 AM
 
If they didn't hide their weapons and bombs in hospitals and schools, then their children wouldn't be dead.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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RobOnTheCape
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Jul 28, 2014, 12:11 PM
 
These comments are like the bombs flying back and forth - they change absolutely nothing. No change of opinion here, and no reduction in terror attacks or aparthied treatment of almost 2 million people over there.
     
Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 12:19 PM
 
Its a plain and simple fact. They are all (monotheistic) religions. They all share a lot of scripture. They have plenty in common, it just doesn't suit you to see it apparently.
The problem is that one of the religions (Islam) commands them to kill the other two. Google 'kill the infidels"
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Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
These comments are like the bombs flying back and forth - they change absolutely nothing. No change of opinion here, and no reduction in terror attacks or aparthied treatment of almost 2 million people over there.
The Jordanians are more guilty of this than anyone . It lead to the PLO attempting to overthrow King Hussein and the expulsion of the PLO. Jordon was responsible for killing more "Palestinians"


Black September in Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Palestinians in Jordan
The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine in late 1947 led to civil war, the end of Mandatory Palestine, and the Israeli Declaration of Independence on 14 May 1948. With nationhood, the ongoing civil war was transformed into a state conflict between Israel and the Arab states. Egypt, Jordan and Syria, together with expeditionary forces from Iraq, invaded Palestine. They took control of the Arab areas, and immediately attacked Israeli forces and several Jewish settlements. The fighting was halted with the UN-mediated 1949 Armistice Agreements, but the remaining Palestinian territories came under the control of Egypt and Transjordan. In 1949, Transjordan officially changed its name to Jordan; in 1950, it annexed the West Bank of the Jordan River, and brought Palestinian representation into the government.

At the time, the area east of the Jordan River contained over 400,000 Palestinian refugees, who made up one-third of the population of the Kingdom; another third of the population was Palestinians living on the West Bank. Only one third of the population consisted of native Jordanians, which meant that the Jordanians had become a ruling minority over a Palestinian majority. This proved to be a mercurial element in internal Jordanian politics, and played a critical role in the political opposition. Since the 1950s, the West Bank had become the center of the national and territorial aspects of the Palestinian problem, which was the key issue of Jordan's domestic and foreign policy. According to King Hussein, the Palestinian problem spelled "life or death" for Jordan, and would remain the country's overriding national security issue.[7]

King Hussein feared an independent West Bank under PLO administration would threaten the autonomy of his Hashemite kingdom.[8][9] The Palestinian factions were supported variously by many Arab regimes, most notably Egypt's president Gamal Abdel Nasser, who gave political support; and Saudi Arabia, which gave financial support.[citation needed] The Palestinian nationalist organization Fatah started organizing attacks against Israel in January 1965, and Israel was subject to repeated cross-border attacks by Palestinian fedayeen; these often drew reprisals.[10] The Samu Incident was one such reprisal. Jordan had long maintained secret contacts with Israel concerning peace and security along their border. However, due to internal splits within the Jordanian government and population, many of King Hussein's orders to stop these raids were not obeyed, and some Jordanian commanders along the Israeli-Jordanian border were lending passive assistance to the Palestinian raids.[11]

In June 1967, Israel captured the West Bank from Jordan during the Six-Day War.
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subego  (op)
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Jul 28, 2014, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
These comments are like the bombs flying back and forth - they change absolutely nothing. No change of opinion here, and no reduction in terror attacks or aparthied treatment of almost 2 million people over there.
Still waiting for someone to slam Egypt...
     
Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Still waiting for someone to slam Egypt...
Egypt had control over Gaza at the same time Jordan had control of the "West Bank." For 29 years Egypt and Jordan failed to give the "Palestinians" an independent state.
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Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 02:19 PM
 
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Shaddim
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Jul 28, 2014, 02:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape View Post
These comments are like the bombs flying back and forth - they change absolutely nothing. No change of opinion here, and no reduction in terror attacks or aparthied treatment of almost 2 million people over there.
Israel treats them better than their own Arab brethren, despite being openly hated. Have you spent any time thinking this through, or do you just absorb and regurgitate what your flavor of media tells you?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Shaddim
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Jul 28, 2014, 02:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Still waiting for someone to slam Egypt...
Oh, hell no, it's all the fault of the evil, apartheid-loving Joos.
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Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 03:44 PM
 
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 28, 2014, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
How much love for Jews do you suppose has really been lost among Europeans? At the surface, I'd say there has been a demonstrable hatred for Jews for some time, do you have some evidence of this sudden and drastic swing in public opinion?
Honestly I'm not sure its a question of love being lost for a race or a religion. I saw it as more a nationality issue. People all of a sudden seem to think Israel is being way too heavy handed. I've never noticed this in the past. Its entirely unscientific and anecdotal, but my news feeds have been flooded with posts claiming something needs to be done about these attacks because they are OTT.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
So indeed, the problem is the Palestinians.
Not sure I see any logic in how you drew that conclusion.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You might be watching too much US cinema.
Maybe, but I've seen other shows including documentaries covering recruitment officers in those states going after school kids whose families were surprisingly enthusiastic about it all.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You mean like the above poll that surveyed 105 undergrads from the University of British Columbia... in Vancouver, BC Canada ?
You 've got me there but Atheists are not well liked in the US either.
University of Minnesota Study on American Attitudes Towards Atheists & Atheism


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
You've nailed it right here. If the Israelis were this bent on land or merely eliminating Palestinians, it would have been done a long time ago. Geopolitics are so profound at this point that they're not even allowed to defend themselves in the same manner as everyone else. After all, if it were up to the likes of France, pro-Palestinians wouldn't even be allowed to assemble.
I'm not sure firing rockets into densely packed urban areas when you are fighting hidden terrorists and not obvious military installations is a good example of 'defending yourself in the same manner as everyone else'. Thats why people are being less sympathetic then they were.


Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Jihadists don't even share the same interpretations of the Quran as the more moderate sects, let alone the differences between they and other monotheistic religions. I think what we may have here is a need for you to express your own religious antagonism by exploiting jihadi atrocity in lumping all monotheistic religions together.
I'm pointing out they have a connection and that Christianity used to share the same barbaric and intolerant mindset that Islamic extremism has now. I also said that most of Christianity has moved past all that.

Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Truer words have never been spoken and the worst atrocities in history are those of atheist intolerance and eventual tyranny; Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong...
So having taken a swing at my anti-theism, you then demonstrate equal if not greater anti-atheism on the very next line. Doesn't really help your dismissal of my point about the popularity of atheists in America either.
Oh and Hitler was not an atheist.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 06:19 PM
 
Hitler and the Nazi leadership were occultists, among other things. (as was the Brown Shirt leadership)
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 28, 2014, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
No. Not even close, but thanks for playing.
It quite clearly demonstrates how much all religious fundamentalists have in common. And the IRA weren't even that fundamentalist compared to some.



Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Thanks for the confirmation. That was when bombs made from readily available materials could be made small enough to conceal on your person. The tech didn't exist before, but the hate and murderous traits sure as hell did.
Right. But the leaders of the crusades wouldn't have bothered with nukes because they thought swords made enough of a statement? Sure.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Sure doesn't, but at least I understand some part of how they feel, since I have friends and family living there.
In other words, you know some people in Israel who have clearly given you a completely balanced perspective on the situation.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You don't actually see the difference between "normal" Muslims and Jihadists? That has to be a joke. Tell me you simply didn't think that through.
On the contrary, that was me pointing out that Muslims and Jews can live in the same countries without trying to blow each other up. I have also tried to reason that there will be a majority of Palestinians who are civilians wishing for peace. You are the one calling for the eradication of an entire nation state because they are all evil Jihadists. If one of us is joking, its not me.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Again, if you can't see that there's a difference between a Jihadist and a mainline Christian, Jew, or Muslim, then there's no point in trying to explain anything else to you.
Nothing you just quoted even implies this. Quite the opposite in fact.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
and there's more here... holy balls, man.
This time you quoted something that might have been more suited to your last comeback, but like I said when I addressed this one for Ebuddy, I simply pointed out an obvious and indisputable historical (and to a lesser extent psychological) connection. The fact you don't like it has no bearing on its accuracy. Sorry.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yep. The problem is, you apparently think anyone who is religious is an extremist. Which makes you a type of extremist yourself, you know?
Again, the things I've actually said clearly demonstrate that this is not the case. All I have said is that there is a connection between all these religions and that in the past even the ones who have learned to be more civilised behaved just like the ones who still haven't.

Perhaps I should also remind anyone reading, that I am the one being mildly critical of a superior military force that is killing a lot of civilians while you are baying for total genocide of those civilians in order to wipe out what I have assumed all along is a minority of terrorists.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 06:45 PM
 
Where do you stand on The ISIS campaign to rid the ME of the remaining Christians? (the vast majority who are Catholics) None of which had anything to do with the Crusades.
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Chongo
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Jul 28, 2014, 07:37 PM
 
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